[00:00:00] Luke Storey: I'm Luke Storey. For the past 22 years, I've been relentlessly committed to my deepest passion, designing the ultimate lifestyle based on the most powerful principles of spirituality, health, psychology. The Life Stylist podcast is a show dedicated to sharing my discoveries and the experts behind them with you. Welcome to the show, Serena.

[00:00:26] Serena Dyer: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:28] Luke Storey: Yeah. I'm so glad that you reached out and we're able to put this together.

[00:00:31] Serena Dyer: Yeah. I'm so glad that you responded.

[00:00:33] Luke Storey: Yeah. No, I immediately did. I was like, oh, this sounds interesting.

[00:00:37] Serena Dyer: Thank you.

[00:00:37] Luke Storey: Yeah. As we were discussing prior to recording, you already knew that I was such a huge fan of your dad, Wayne Dyer. I have talked about him a lot on the show. When I first started the awakening process when I was around 26, I used to have a bunch of his big cassette. They're like these—I know they didn't even have them anymore, obviously, they don't have cassettes anymore, but they were these cassette booklets that weren't audio books. Some maybe were audio books. Some were just talks, like collections of lectures.

[00:01:08] And he was and is one of my favorites, and I loved his ability to put esoteric teachings like the Tao Te Ching and other teachings in very practical, everyday terms that a numskull like me could understand and actually apply to their life. See how when you reached out, I was like, oh, this will be interesting. And then, I listen to and read your book, and it's absolutely fantastic, so I'm stoked to chat with you about so many things.

[00:01:35] Serena Dyer: Well, thank you.

[00:01:37] Luke Storey: So, the book is called The Knowing: 11 Lessons to Understand the Quiet Urges of Your Soul. So, the first thing I want to ask you is, what is the knowing?

[00:01:44] Serena Dyer: The knowing is the part of us that is God, to put it in the most simple terms. But to expand a little bit on that, because it sounds a little woo-woo, there is a part of every single one of us that has infinite knowledge, awareness, connection to all things. And you might think that that is not present in the people that you don't like or in the people that aren't living from their highest selves, but it is, it's present in all of us.

[00:02:13] And the knowing is connecting to that and paying attention to it. It's kind of like having a lighthouse, it's always there, it will guide you home, even in the darkest of nights, the most awful storms, but you have to open your eyes. You have to look for it. And I would say that the knowing is like an intuition, but bigger than that, because it's God.

[00:02:38] Luke Storey: Wow. Thank you. Makes perfect sense, because as you're saying that, I'm like, oh, so it's like intuition. But the knowing is, I guess, more broad than just intuition, because it's the recognition that one is an aspect of God rather than just the intuition of knowing, like I think I should go this way or that way.

[00:02:59] Serena Dyer: Right. Because intuition is a little bit more, I think, mind-based. It can obviously be soul-based, gut level, but I think intuition isn't always the awareness that something bigger than us is at play here. And I think that's what the knowing really is. 

[00:03:16] Luke Storey: Awesome. I love it. Okay. So, there's something really interesting that I learned about your dad that I didn't know that his book, Your Erogenous Zones, was based on the teachings of Muktananda. Were you aware of that?

[00:03:30] Serena Dyer: No. I mean, not as a kid, as I got older. So, it's actually Your Erroneous Zones.

[00:03:38] Luke Storey: Oh, Erroneous Zones, okay.

[00:03:39] Serena Dyer: Erogenous sounds like-

[00:03:40] Luke Storey: Did I say erogenous?

[00:03:42] Serena Dyer: Yeah.

[00:03:42] Luke Storey: That's so funny, because I have Erroneous Zones written here, shows where my mind's at.

[00:03:46] Serena Dyer: Erogenous might be in like a different section of the book.

[00:03:50] Luke Storey: Your Erroneous Zones, places in which you are incorrect.

[00:03:54] Serena Dyer: Yeah. And that was his first book, actually. And that book came about for him after an incredible experience that we talk about in the book, but where basically, he grew up without a father and his father had abandoned him when he was born. His mother had three little boys. He was the youngest of three. And his father walked out and his mother could not afford to keep the three boys together, so my dad and his brothers were placed in foster homes or orphanages.

[00:04:29] And this is 1940, it's the height of the Great Depression. It was not an uncommon thing at that time. But anyway, because of that, my dad grew up hating his father. He grew up full of anger and he wanted to get revenge, because he didn't understand how a man could leave his children. And he spent 35 years of his life full of anger. And when he found out that his father died, he went to his grave to piss on it, literally. That's why he went there. 

[00:05:03] And he got to the grave, and he. He did. He did all those things. He curse him, stomped on it, maybe took a leak on it. And then, he left to go back to his rental car, and as he was walking back to his rental car, his knowing, his presence of God said to him, go back now, go back to the grave, and he did. And he went back to the grave, and he said, from this moment on, I only send you love and I forgive you. And he wrote Erroneous Zones within two weeks of that.

[00:05:33] Luke Storey: Really?

[00:05:34] Serena Dyer: Of that, yeah. He had a tenured professorship in New York at St. John's University. He quit. He left a relationship he wasn't happy in. He started to lose weight. He started to exercise. And that book, Your Erroneous Zones, went on to become the number one bestseller of the entire decade of the '70s. But all of that happened, all of that, because of a moment of forgiveness. And I wouldn't be here if he didn't do that, because he ended up meeting my mom after that.

[00:06:05] And anyway, my dad used to say that the single greatest, most important day of his life was August 30, 1976, when he found his father's grave and forgave him. And you can imagine our surprise when my sister, Saje, my co-author, discovered that August 30th, the most important day of our dad's life, the day his relationship with his father forever changed, it was also the day he died, August 30, 2015. So, I mean, the signs are there. There's this-

[00:06:41] Luke Storey: That's one of the things I love about the book that you two wrote is there's just, I mean, I'm a believer, right? So, I live in a world of synchronicities, and it's commonplace, and I do my best to be aware of them and to celebrate them, but I know for many people, it's difficult to grasp that the universe is so interconnected. And I love in the book how there's just so many of those examples. I mean, it's the knowing, right? So, it's like, you're like, well, what is the knowing? It's all in the book. And I think that one was one of the ones that got me. And I'm not going to say this is so synchronistic, but my dad's birthday is August 31st.

[00:07:19] Serena Dyer: Oh, wow.

[00:07:20] Luke Storey: Yeah. So, I mean, like that's like when you meet someone, and they're like, I was born in April. You're like, me, too. It's like, well, it's not that big of a coincidence, but that is profound. And I had one of those actually yesterday where I did stop and just like my eyes filled with tears, because it was such a sign. I was reading your book and you quoted Ramdas as saying, I am loving awareness.

[00:07:53] And before I picked up the book to start reading and studying for this interview, I put on a playlist that my friend Ryan gave me of just kind of medicine journey music, just trippy music that you would listen to on medicine. And I love that kind of music, even not in medicine. And I'm playing it, and there's this like instrumental track, and it's Ram Dass's voice. And right in the sentence that says, I am loving awareness, he starts repeating, I am loving awareness, I am loving awareness at the exact same time.

[00:08:23] Serena Dyer: Oh, my God. I love it.

[00:08:25] Luke Storey: I mean, that's like, come on. You know what I mean?

[00:08:28] Serena Dyer: And the reason that is happening for you and the reason that you are having those things and that I have those things is because I expect them. And the reason other people that are maybe, let's say, you said skeptical are nonbelievers don't is because they don't, and they don't expect them, so they're not looking for them. They're not open to them. And I think that the choice is ours, which way do we want to go through life as though everything is a miracle or as though nothing is? But speaking of Ram Dass, I don't know why this story just popped into my head. So, I want to tell you, but I don't want to go off your paper.

[00:09:02] Luke Storey: Well, no, my paper is meaningless, because it's linear. So, do because I was going to ask you about like your—Ram Dass is another one of my favorite teachers, and I was going to ask you about any interactions you had with him or the nature of your dad's relationship. But I want to pause that, because I do want to go back to your dad's experience of going to his father's grave, but the precursor to that of how he got there, which you describe in the book, which is, in itself, miraculous and full of signs.

[00:09:32] Serena Dyer: Yeah. He happened to be in-

[00:09:37] Luke Storey: Biloxi, Mississippi.

[00:09:38] Serena Dyer: Yeah, Mississippi for a work conference. He didn't know where his father was buried exactly. He knew that it was around that area of Biloxi, but he didn't know exactly where. But he had found out through like a cousin that he was buried near there, and he got in his rental car, brand new rental car, still had like the plastic on the floor. And in the cupholder of the rental car in the center console was one business card.

[00:10:03] And the business card was for a motel. And it was called The Candlelight Inn. And on the back of the business card was just a little image of a map of where that was. The only thing he knew about his father's grave was that it was buried sort of near The Candlelight Inn or that it was near a motel actually. That's what it is. It was that it was near a motel in the middle of this part of Biloxi.

[00:10:29] And he called all of these different motels to see if they had a pauper's grave, because his father, when he died, he died of cirrhosis of the liver at 49. He was an alcoholic. And he wasn't buried with a headstone. So, he didn't know. It's not like there was like a location. You know what I mean? It's not like how today, you would know exactly where somebody was. But anyway, it was just trough a series of crazy coincidences that the business card that happened to be and the brand new rental car had the name of an inn.

[00:10:58] And when he called that inn, he found out that his father was, in fact, buried at the pauper's grave in the backyard of that inn, drove there, and it was just one of those things, where when you're paying attention, the guidance is there. It's always there, but you have to look for it. He could have easily discarded that business card. He could have easily thought, I'll never find his grave. It's written down on some church paper in some church basement somewhere in a state I've never been to before, but he didn't. He looked for it and he found it. And he was being guided the whole way.

[00:11:37] Luke Storey: Had he not spent some time earlier in life looking for his dad, too?

[00:11:41] Serena Dyer: Always. Always looking for his dad.

[00:11:43] Luke Storey: Okay. Yeah.

[00:11:44] Serena Dyer: Yeah. He wanted to confront him. He wanted to know how he could have abandoned him, and how he could have abandoned his mother and his brothers. And he was carrying around anger, just pure anger up until he found the grave.

[00:11:59] Luke Storey: Wow. Amazing. Alright. So, I'm going to skip ahead. Thank you for sharing that. I'm going to skip ahead to Ram Dass.

[00:12:06] Serena Dyer: Okay. Yeah. So, I don't know why this popped into my head. I must have known, Ram Dass is probably here right now, and I must have known that you were going to ask me about Ram Dass, and that's why this popped into my head. But when I was younger, Ram Dass lived in Maui for the last I don't know how many years of his life. And because my dad lived on Maui and we would spend every summer and a lot of the winter time there, I spent a lot of time with Ram Dass. 

[00:12:31] And he had had a stroke, so he was in a wheelchair. He spoke very slowly. And so, when he spoke, you listened. I mean, he already could get you on the edge of your seat just by his presence alone, but he was just like a silly, big kid, really is, just always laughing, always just sitting there cracking up over God knows what. But anyway, he told us the story about how when he had been fired from Harvard for developing LSD, he went to India.

[00:13:12] And he went to India to study with his guru, with Neem Karoli Baba, and he had brought with him a bunch of LSD tablets, and he had them in his pocket, and he was in a circle meditating with his guru and a bunch of other people. And his guru looked at him, and said, and he didn't tell anybody he brought the LSD, and his guru looked at him ,and said, what's in your pocket? And he said, like, oh, it's nothing. 

[00:13:40] And he said, give me one. And he said like, no, no, no, you can't, I don't want to give you one of these. He said, give me one. He said, okay, I'm nervous to give this to you, but he hands it to him. He takes it. Nothing happens. As the guru sits there, nothing happens. About an hour goes by and he looks at Ram Dass, and he says, give me all of them. And Ram Dass says, it will kill you, I'll kill you, I can't do that. And he says, give me all of them. So, he takes out all of the LSD tablets from his pocket, and he gives them to his guru, and he takes all of them.

[00:14:19] And an hour goes by and nothing happens, and he looks at him, and he says, when you're already in Detroit, you don't have to take a train to get there. And because I know your story, your experience, I guess that just popped into my head, because it's so indicative of what we're all searching for, whether we're searching for it through pills, or alcohol, or drugs, or Ram Dass was searching for that nirvana, and he was accomplishing it through his LSD, but when you are enlightened, there's nothing that could take you away from that state of enlightenment, and there's nothing that could enhance it or lessen it, because it is all and it's everything. And so, yeah, that popped into my head, so I had to tell you. 

[00:15:09] Luke Storey: I love that. I'm familiar with that story, and it's always been one that's been very impactful for me, because of the reasons you just described, yet I have still been drawn out of curiosity and also just subjective benefit to those experiences over the past couple of years as well. But even when I am, I'm always reminded that it's like, say, you do breathwork, or you do meditation, or you do plant medicines, it seems like the thing you're doing is taking you to that place, but you're actually the one who's doing it, right? It's like the higher state of consciousness is within you, it's just that there are different tools that one can use that help you to realize that you are Neem Karoli Baba, right?

[00:16:04] Serena Dyer: And that place, it's already there, but like for most of us, you got to swim through all the shit to find it. And my dad liked ayahuasca and he was like super into that. And my sister, Summer, did it in Costa Rica not that long ago after he died, and she said that she was having this incredible ayahuasca experience. And then, all of a sudden, my dad was there, and she said, Dad, what are you doing here? And he goes, what am I doing here? What are you doing here? She was like, hey, dad.

[00:16:33] Luke Storey: Oh, my God. Wow.

[00:16:35] Serena Dyer: Yeah, I know. And I was like, oh, God. Now, I really want to do some of the different things to help me get to that place of connection, higher consciousness faster, because sure, it exists in all of us and it's available to all of us, but takes a lot of discipline to find it.

[00:16:53] Luke Storey: It does. It does. Yeah. I didn't know that about your dad, that he had done ayahuasca. That's interesting.

[00:16:57] Serena Dyer: Yeah, bnch of times.

[00:16:58] Luke Storey: Really?

[00:16:59] Serena Dyer: Yeah.

[00:16:59] Luke Storey: Wow. I mean, it makes sense. Do you remember anything else about your dad and Ram Dass's relationship or ways in which Ram Dass's teachings influenced him, or what was the nature of their relationship?

[00:17:16] Serena Dyer: So, they knew each other from back in the day, but they reconnected once Ram Dass moved to Maui. He was staying at an Indian man who owned a home in Maui, and he had said to Ram Dass that he could live there for free for the rest of his life, this beautiful home up in the mountains overlooking the ocean. But Ram Dass had donated every single dollar that he had ever earned from any of his books, from any of his speaking, he gave all of them away. So, he was living in this house for free, but he still had expenses, so my dad and him reconnected, because my dad was helping financially support him, because he would never keep a dollar for himself.

[00:17:57] Luke Storey: Wow.

[00:17:58] Serena Dyer: Yeah. And so, they ended up spending a lot of time together, because my dad would go up there to visit him. And then, he would come to our condo sometimes with Kathleen, who was his aide at the time, and I would make food, I would cook dinner, and I would make like food that a teenage girl would make, like pasta and chicken. And I remember one time, Kathleen said, don't put any Parmesan cheese on Ram Dass's. And he was behind her, going—and I was like, you want more?

[00:18:29] And he was like, and I remember thinking like you don't eat like vegan, and he was like a big kid in that way. My dad was, too. They were both really joyful, really present, and silly, and joyful. And Ram Dass always had this energy about him, like he was in awe, like in awe over everything. And it always felt to me like he was in on a joke or in on a prank that I didn't really know what was going on, but he was always on the verge of laughing. Always. And I remember one time when we got to his house, he had this altar, and I said to him, why do you have a picture of George Bush and Rush Limbaugh on your altar, like along with all of-

[00:19:24] Luke Storey: Wow, that's a stretch.

[00:19:25] Serena Dyer: ... these gurus and sacred images of different saints and people. And he said, because they have just as much God in them as the other people up there, and I have to remember that.

[00:19:47] Luke Storey: Wow. Damn. That's potent.

[00:19:50] Serena Dyer: Yeah, I mean, to be able to love those that you agree with, to be kind to those that are kind to us is easy. It takes real mastery to be able to love those you disagree with and to be kind to those who are not kind, but as the Dow says, the sage is kind of the kind and kind to the unkind as kindness is his nature. So, Ram Dass was just a living example of putting that to work, putting that idea to work and holding himself accountable to it.

[00:20:31] Luke Storey: Yeah. I mean, imagine you're sitting there praying and you see a war criminal in front of your face. I mean, George Bush, pretty bad actor in my opinion. There are worse figures in history, of course, that you could put up there that come to mind for many people, but it's the same idea, right? I think that's the thing that helps me find peace with the way the world is and those that I deem to be evil, or to a lesser degree, even just disagree with is that duality is here on purpose, that if the world was perfect and this utopia, there would be no reason to have a world, because there would be no reason to incarnate, because there'd be no sort of contrast of a scale of consciousness for us to use for our growth, right?

[00:21:23] Serena Dyer: Right. Exactly. And I think that that is the thing that people so often misunderstand. People in like spiritual or mindfulness communities, they think that like, there's this idea that like karma or bad things happen to good people or people get really into putting a label on an action or an experience as like good or bad, or looking at a person and saying that they are good or bad. But really, we come here, we incarnate here, at least it's my belief that we do so to grow, to expand.

[00:21:57] And so, those people and those experiences that we label as bad or that are challenging are really stepping stones for our own growth. And they're really ladders, if you will, for us to climb, to get out of our own suffering, our own lower energy. So, their experience is theirs, and whether they're good or bad has nothing to do with us, but if we can find the way to do what Ram Dass did, if we can find a way to have that love for them, then they have become our teacher. They have become our opportunity for growth.

[00:22:42] Luke Storey: Wow, that's beautiful.

[00:22:43] Serena Dyer: Yeah. Well, I say that because I had such a difficult time, as I wrote about in our book, for like five years, I had everything in my life just like went bad. And I kept thinking because I was raised in a spiritual household, where my dad used to say the secret got it wrong, you don't get in life what you want, you get what you are, that that the universe is responding to you.

[00:23:04] And all of these things that kept happening to me were difficult, and I was really struggling, but on top of that, I had like compounded shame, because if you are raised to believe that you get in life what you are, then why was I getting all of these bad things? I must be bad. And that's what I was thinking and that's how I was viewing it, and therefore I was staying really stuck, and I was really in the struggle, and the shame was overpowering.

[00:23:36] But it was through understanding and realizing that I'm placing a label on it, calling something bad, but if I change the way I look at it, the experience itself will change, and I have a choice to make it an opportunity to grow and to expand or to stay stuck. And whichever one I choose will be the outcome that I experience for the rest of my life, so do I want to stay stuck or do I want to grow?

[00:24:11] Luke Storey: I want to talk about something that could be potentially a little controversial.

[00:24:18] Serena Dyer: Let me take a sip of my tea.

[00:24:20] Luke Storey: No, I'm sure you can get around it. So, your dad passed in 2015. And prior to that, he had a bout with, and tell me if I'm getting this right, he had a bout with leukemia. And then, by the time he had died, he was said to have not had leukemia, is that right?

[00:24:41] Serena Dyer: Yes.

[00:24:42] Luke Storey: During that time, you, I think, went with him to see John of God.

[00:24:47] Serena Dyer: I was with him on Maui when he had a John of God remote second surgery.

[00:24:50] Luke Storey: Oh, okay. So, you didn't go with him.

[00:24:52] Serena Dyer: No, we never went to Brazil.

[00:24:54] Luke Storey: And the reason that I say, and he didn't go either?

[00:24:56] Serena Dyer: No.

[00:24:56] Luke Storey: Oh, okay. So, the reason I say it's controversial for those that aren't listening, there's been a bunch of controversy around sexual misconduct of John of God, and like it's super sketchy. Like now, there's Yogi Bhajan, the guy that is said to have brought kundalini yoga here, which is a practice that I've benefited from much, and it's a shame, you don't know which allegations are true, of course, in these situations until they're proven so, but when there are so many from so many different people, you're kind of like, okay, I'm going to just like exit out of that energy field. So, I don't know that it's controversial in the context of your dad, but I guess on the positive side of that, what was his experience of working with John of God? And how did you perceive that from your point of view and that whole period in which he seemed to have been healed, at least in part by that transmission?

[00:25:46] Serena Dyer: Yeah. So, let me just say that I'm familiar with the sexual assault allegations or misconduct allegations against John of God. That being said, I have never made John of God a guru, and I would not gurufy him or anyone else, because I understand that they are human beings. And I think that people can have incredible gifts and also be deeply flawed. So, I'm just going to say that about him.

[00:26:13] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[00:26:14] Serena Dyer: And I believe that John of God absolutely has an incredible gift despite being deeply flawed, if allegations are true, and I tend to believe that they are. But anyway, my dad, he had a friend who was going down there, she was an eye surgeon from California, and she was going down to bid on Abadiania. That's a place in Brazil where he has his casa. And my mom had gone. My mom had gone twice. My mom is extremely spiritual and she is the real leader, and she always was in the family of all things health and wellness. My dad would follow behind her and just do what she said. But my mom had gone down there, and when she got before John of God, he asked her to sit to his right, and to meditate with him, and to perform these psychic surgeries with him alongside him.

[00:27:06] Luke Storey: Whoa.

[00:27:07] Serena Dyer: Because when he saw her, I guess he just felt her incredible energy. And so, my mom had a really amazing experience there, And she loved it. And she saw for herself, miracles happen. And so, my dad had a friend that was going there, an eye surgeon from California, she brought his photos, which, this is going to sound super crazy, but you can have a remote surgery or you could when he was doing this.

[00:27:33] So, they would bring your photos and John of God would look at the photos and recommend what surgery you needed. And then, they would say like, okay, on this date, you need to wear all white, and the surgery is going to happen at this time, and you need to prepare to rest, as though you had a real surgery. And you don't eat any pork or pepper in the days leading up to it, all these different things.

[00:27:59] So, anyway, I was with my dad on Maui when he had his psychic surgery, and my dad was super excited. And the next day in the morning, I was asking him how it was, and he said like, let's go for a walk and I'll tell you. So, we get outside, and he just collapsed, and he was like, I'm so physically exhausted, I'm so like tired, and I need to rest. And we get back up to the condo, and he gets in bed, and he calls his friend who was down there, and she said, Wayne, I told you, this is like a real surgery, you have to rest.

[00:28:43] And he stayed in bed for like a week, which he never did, ever. I mean, that man never rested. And then, there was a psychic surgery, where they do the suture removal. I know, again, it sounds super crazy, but the beings come in the night and they remove the sutures, the stitches. And the next morning, when my dad came out of his room, he had lost all this weight, because he had been laying in bed for a week and barely eating.

[00:29:13] And he came out, my brother and I, my brother, Sands, and I were in the living room, and he came out, and he looked at us, and he put his arms out, like to give a big hug. And as he did that, his shorts completely like fell down. And I saw his like peeper and everything, I was like, dad, I don't want to see that, like freaked out. He's like, what? Oh, sorry. He didn't realize he had lost so much weight.

[00:29:30] His pants were falling off, but he didn't even notice his pants were falling off, because he was in such a state of love, of actual love. And I mean, the energy that he carried after that surgery, it carried with him for the rest of his life until he died. And he had a type of leukemia called CLL, was chronic lymphocytic leukemia. And so, there's no treatment that you do for, you don't do radiation or anything unless it turns acute.

[00:30:08] So, he would have his blood monitored to make sure that it didn't turn acute. And after he passed away, I asked the autopsy doctor who called us to tell us that he died from a heart attack. And we said, was there any leukemia in his blood? And she said, no, not a drop, not a single drop of leukemia anywhere in his blood. So then, I said, I know this is going to sound really weird, but what was his colon like? Because he was obsessed with coffee enemas, and she said, particularly clean and remarkable, actually. Now that you say that, I actually have a note here that says-

[00:30:50] Luke Storey: Oh, really?

[00:30:50] Serena Dyer: Yeah. And I knew he would want to know or I knew that he would want us to know that all of his Starbucks, all of his coffee enemas were worth it, because he loved to torment us with, best part of waking up is Folgers in your butt. And so, I asked. And anyway, yeah, he didn't have any leukemia, and he credited it with the John of God psychic surgery.

[00:31:16] Luke Storey: Wow. And how long before he went through that procedure was he diagnosed?

[00:31:22] Serena Dyer: He was diagnosed, gosh, I want to say 2009 was when he was diagnosed and just right around there. And he went through that procedure. Honestly, I'm not sure, 2012 or '13, I think, but he changed his purpose at that point. He said that his only message from that point on would be to talk and teach about divine love. And divine love is the love that our source, God, feels for each of us, and it's very different than human love.

[00:32:09] And he only wanted to talk about divine love. And I believe that was because whatever the John of God thing was, I know you said earlier, placebo or not, it doesn't matter. He felt an infusion of divine love and he carried it from that point forward. So, because he bought into it, because he believed it, because it was real, who cares? The outcome was that he was a changed, loving, I mean, he was always loving, but this was like another level.

[00:32:45] Luke Storey: Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I've always been enamored, going back to Muktananda, the name I mentioned earlier, when I was about eight or nine, I went to his ashram in Oakland with my mom. And so, any time I hear his name, I'm like, tell me more. I'm so fascinated by that, because it was really impactful. And throughout my life, I seem to be drawn, if not enamored with gurus that have powers, that have siddhis that are able to do things that are outside of the realm of our linear material experience. And what's so interesting about them, including John of God, and that was on my kind of vision board for many years, I got to get down to Brazil and I thought maybe he could fix my back. And then, when I saw videos of him like putting hemostats like down people's throat and stuff, I was like, I don't know if I can handle that.

[00:33:34] Serena Dyer: With no numbing, right?

[00:33:35] Luke Storey: Yeah. But with all of these, and Sathya Sai Baba from India, who I went to see in 2004, who, after he died, there were all these accusations of pedophilia. And I mean, some of the stories are just horrific, and you're like, it's so hard to hold in mind those two realities, like how can someone be bestowed with these gifts, yet at the same time, be capable of such wrongdoing, and in some cases, outright evil? And it's always been really interesting to me. 

[00:34:03] And I think, I don't know, I have to chalk it up to, it's like kind of a fallen guru syndrome, perhaps. I don't know this to be true, but it's one way I've been able to reconcile it, that perhaps, because one, for whatever reason, has these gifts and powers, it's probably very tempting for the lower nature of oneself at a certain point, unless you're very aware, that the ego or that rapacious, kind of the animal instinctive drive to overtake and dominate, or pleasure seeking, or whatever it might be, that that's still present, because you're still in an animal body, right?

[00:34:45] Serena Dyer: Right.

[00:34:45] Luke Storey: So, it's like it must be very seductive at a certain point for some that have those gifts and are overtaken by urges that are so—well, I won't say they're ungodly, because God is everything, including those urges, but that aren't right, and aren't good, and aren't of love. It's so fascinating to me and it's been part of my naiveté as a spiritual student to understand that not just due to the fact that someone has been bestowed with these gifts does that mean that they're necessarily trustworthy or not capable of wrongdoing.

[00:35:20] Serena Dyer: Right.

[00:35:20] Luke Storey: It's really interesting.

[00:35:22] Serena Dyer: No, I think so, too. And I think that as you were saying, the higher their awareness or the presence of, I don't know, God becomes in someone, I can imagine that the war that they experience within themselves to remain attached to their human nature becomes bigger, becomes more present. So, in other words, the more they rise, perhaps, the more they reach to the bottom to, I don't know, maintain some level of human experience. I would imagine it would take somebody really Christ consciousness level to be in a human body and not be impacted by that. 

[00:36:19] Luke Storey: Yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon in the human realm. I've just always been like, oh, that's so weird. It's such a contrast.

[00:36:28] Serena Dyer: Right. But I think another way of looking at that is there's so many people that are in recovery that are former addicts or that are addicts that are in the spiritual community. And I think, again, they had a war within themselves. There was a part of them that was aware. There was always a part of them that was aware that they didn't need these substances, for most people, for most addicts, myself being one of them, that we didn't need these substances, I didn't need alcohol to fix what I was feeling.

[00:37:00] And I knew it wouldn't heal me or bring me closer to where I wanted to be. But even though I had that loving awareness, I still had my feet dragging on the ground, I still had the human nature, which was to want to numb, avoid, punish, shame, hide, all those things. So, I think in other words, there's a lot of people that are in recovery that are in the spiritual community, because they've got one foot in each door.

[00:37:31] Luke Storey: Well, there's a gift in it, too, when you've been down to the depths of hell for some, I'm not for all, but I guess those of us that make it out, there's a level of empathy that's possible when you experience the suffering of others, right? Because you remember. I mean, hopefully, we always remember, right? I do my best to remember those times in my life. I mean, not to dwell on them, but to keep me down to earth and humble, that I'm feeling good, I have a great life, but it wasn't always this way. There was a time.

[00:38:02] But I love what you were alluding to there, and that still small voice that even when you're in the throes of something like addiction or any kind of other self-destructive behavior, that there still is that higher self part of you. And for me, it was like toward the end there, well, before I got sober, in an uncomfortable way that I didn't want to happen, it would kind of nudge me, and be like, hey, there's another way, you're better than this, you have potential, like you don't have to live like this. And I was like, shut up, shut up, shut up.

[00:38:37] Serena Dyer: Right. Another drink, another drink, yeah.

[00:38:39] Luke Storey: Yeah. And eventually, which I didn't realize until at least 22 years after the fact, but a mushroom journey that I had intended to be an escape, another night of partying, just take whatever's around, that voice became so loud that months following that, I elected to put myself into treatment and been sober ever since, 24 years later.

[00:39:03] Serena Dyer: That's incredible.

[00:39:04] Luke Storey: Yeah, but it was really like the sadness of my higher self and its potential letting me know that it was there and that it was possible for me to actually have a real life, and to do something with myself and make a contribution, and not be someone who is a detriment to those around me and myself.

[00:39:26] Serena Dyer: Right. And the thing is, is that you probably thought that the mushrooms were needed to find that voice, but they were just a vehicle, because the voice was always there. And it's like when you're already in Detroit, you don't have to take the train to get there. 

[00:39:41] Luke Storey: Yeah, totally. Well, it's true, the mushrooms that night. And again, this is like total hindsight wisdom, but it caused that inner voice to scream so loudly that I couldn't ignore it. There was no numbing, like the stark reality of my situation and the truth about my imminent demise became so prevalent and obvious to me that there was just no ignoring it. I tried, made it a few more months, stuff and stuff, I'd go dark, dark, dark, turn the lights out in any way possible. But then, in the end, I finally surrendered.

[00:40:17] But anyway, enough about me. I want to talk about some of the challenges that you went through in the book. I mean, you and Saje, your sister, your co-author, both illuminate in a very vulnerable way the death of your stepson, the imminent possible prison term of your husband, Matt, and your dad dying within the same short period, with your drinking problem, did that start before that? Did it creep up on you or did you just break under the pressure and like grab the bottle, because all that stuff was happening?

[00:40:57] Serena Dyer: Break under the pressure and grab the bottle, because all that stuff was happening. I'm sure I had a—actually, it's not true. I'm not sure. I did not have an addictive tendency before that. I didn't have an addictive tendency my entire life. I wasn't like an over sugar eater as a kid or anything like that. But when everything in my life that I felt good about, that I felt like safe in, when it all kind of just got yanked out from under me, like when my dad died, my husband was indicted, I had three babies in that time.

[00:41:31] So, I gained a lot of weight. I had weight to lose. So, superficial level. But still, I could be very vain. I didn't like the way I looked anymore. I didn't have any money, because my husband's assets were frozen and my dad had just died. And there was a whole legal thing after his death. And so, everything that I had identified as being part of my self-worth was gone. And then, my stepson died.

[00:42:01] And I didn't want to feel, I didn't want to experience what I was experiencing. I kept convincing myself that when all the circumstances in my life like fall into place, then I'll stop drinking, then I'll be at peace, then I'll lose weight, then I'll be happy. I was raised to know it's the opposite, that I will be at peace, and then the circumstances fall into place.

[00:42:37] I was raised to know that, but I was consciously abandoning it, because I didn't want to be responsible. I didn't want to have to do the work. It's a lot easier to look around you, and blame, and it be somebody else's fault, or I am this way because this happened to me, or I am having this behavior because I have this occurring. It's so much easier, but painful and longer, to look outside of yourself and find a million reasons to justify why you're doing what you're doing.

[00:43:15] It's so much freer, more feeing, but harder to go within, to find the peace, to find the inner Tahiti. It's so much more freeing to find that inner Tahiti, even when everything in your life has shit the bed, but it takes a sense of being worth it, and I didn't have that. I was really just carrying a heavy coat of shame, because after Mason passed away, my stepson. When my dad died, I didn't have any like regret, I didn't have any like lingering grief in the form of like regret or pain, because I only had had like a beautiful relationship with him. And he adored me and I adored him.

[00:44:10] And I felt like I basked in his love of me and I never had anything to regret. When Mason died, I could not remember a single nice thing that I had done for him. I couldn't remember—and let me just say this, I had done them, lots of nice things, but I was so consumed with guilt and shame over all of the mean things I had done, all of the evil stepmother, if you will, shitty things I had done, all the little fights I had picked, that I couldn't let myself off the hook. So, I was really committed to shame and I started drinking in excess at that point right after he passed away. Not only did I not want to feel, I didn't want to be me.

[00:45:10] Luke Storey: When you started drinking, so it was kind of a sudden thing, and were you more—and this is just curiosity, as like, I guess, a former alcoholic, always a bit grey on that, because I don't ever plan on having a drink, but I don't know what would happen if I did. I assume it would be bad. But people that identify as alcoholics will kind of fall under a few different categories, but broadly speaking, you have kind of a maintenance drinker.

[00:45:35] My paternal grandfather was that way. I never knew him to be drunk, but I always knew him to have a drink and smell like booze. I was not like that. I really only drank after dark, but once I started, I couldn't stop, and I drank into absolute oblivion almost every time. And that's just how I roll. I still drink like that, like Alyson, she always watches me when I drink anything, because I'm just like [making sounds] I just chug any kind of drink. I've always been a chugger. So, what type of drinker were you? And how long did that period last? And did the way you drink speed up, your awareness that you had a problem and your desire to get help or however that happened?

[00:46:15] Serena Dyer: Yeah. So, I always was like a casual drinker, a casual meeting, like I like to cook a lot, so I would have wine while I was making dinner, or my husband and I would go out to eat, and I would have like an IPA, because I love beer. So, I was really more like a wine and beer drinker, but it wasn't like I was blacking out. And once Mason passed away, I went from like having a glass of wine with dinner or two to having a bottle, to having a bottle-and-a-half, and blacking out like every time I drink.

[00:46:49] Luke Storey: Wow. Damn, girl.

[00:46:51] Serena Dyer: Yes. So, I didn't drink every single night at first, but every time I drank, I blacked out. And then, that really kind of peaked when COVID started. I had a period of time in there where I got pregnant, so I wasn't doing that then. So, I had a nice nine-month-and-a-half break, but then after my son was born, and I kind of slowly returned to the blackout phase. Not immediately, but slowly. And when COVID happened, actually, was the start of last year, was that last year? Yeah, that was last March.

[00:47:27] Luke Storey: I don't even know.

[00:47:28] Serena Dyer: Yeah, I think it was like last year. My kids were not in school and I had like a week where I had my nanny come every day, because her other job, she couldn't go there. They didn't want her to come because of COVID. So, suddenly, she was available five days a week and I didn't have to get up in the morning to take my kids to school. And I had somebody that was there that I trusted that was going to watch them. And each day, I started drinking, instead of it being five, it became four, it became three. And I just got blacked out for like five straight days. And my husband basically said that he was leaving me and taking our kids.

[00:48:12] Luke Storey: Wow. Good for him.

[00:48:13] Serena Dyer: Yeah, good for him, I can say in hindsight.

[00:48:16] Luke Storey: Yeah.

[00:48:18] Serena Dyer: At the time, I said every nasty thing I could possibly think of.

[00:48:20] Luke Storey: I'm sure.

[00:48:21] Serena Dyer: And I just said, I'll do what I have to do, I'll stop, because I also had that same thing. I had that feeling that there was a voice inside of me that was saying, it doesn't have to be this way, you have a huge life ahead of you if you choose to show up for it. So, I had like the nudge, but I didn't even want—I was saying, shut up, to the nudge, too. I was just telling it, I don't want any part of you. In fact, the more I would feel that nudge, the stronger I would become faster, because I didn't want to connect with the idea that it was up to me to change.

[00:49:06] Luke Storey: Yeah. Well, is it not fortunate that you had the upbringing that you had and such great teachers as parents that, perhaps, that nudge came sooner and louder than it does for some, that the husband does leave, the kids are gone, the career folds. I mean, the nature of most people's bottoms, by the time it gets bad enough, where you're willing to do what it takes to maintain sobriety. For most people, it gets pretty bad. 

[00:49:33] And maybe those are people that had more traumatic childhoods and things like that, where there's just so much more heavy lifting and so much more to work through, where it sounds like yours was a fortunate case, and that you had a lot of the raw materials already built into your character, and grew up with a lot of love, and what I think was great caregiving. Especially in your book, I mean, so much in your book is like how to be a parent. Honestly, both the way you and your sister parents, but also as your parents parented you both, it's like, oh, okay, that's how you do it.

[00:50:08] Serena Dyer: Yeah. So, you're going to read it again when you're going to have one, right?

[00:50:10] Luke Storey: Yeah. No, totally, totally. No. That's why I told Allison, too, because we're both studying the book at the same time. And I said, man, there's a lot of great parenting lessons in here. But I mean, I guess I can get that to be a question, it's more of an assumption of mine, but do you think that your upbringing, and the fact that you weren't terribly traumatized and had it really kind of safe, emotional experience with your parents that it helped you get to that point sooner, and like, I'm going to knock the shit out and get back on track?

[00:50:38] Serena Dyer: No. 

[00:50:39] Luke Storey: Really?

[00:50:40] Serena Dyer: No, because I have a sister, I won't say her name, but I have a sister who is a 20-plus year addict. She's been a heroin addict, a fentanyl addict, every kind of addict that you could think of, has gotten to maybe 20 different rehabs, and she had the exact same upbringing that I had. So, I don't think that your parents can absolve you of any addictive tendencies, and I don't think that they can be to blame as much as we would like to think they are. 

[00:51:11] I think that it is a choice that we make in response to whatever trauma or experience we have. But when we look at other people lives, and we say, well, they're this way because their parents did this or that, we're kind of taking the responsibility off of themselves. And the only freedom, the truest form of freedom is taking responsibility for everything that shows up in your life.

[00:51:38] So, that doesn't mean that because somebody had bad parents, they're not to blame, right? But it really does actually mean that they're not to blame because I think I had a shorter experience with my alcoholism, or addiction, or whatever, because I don't think that it is actually my tendency to be an addict. I think that it was my way of responding to my trauma.

[00:52:07] Luke Storey: Right. That makes sense.

[00:52:09] Serena Dyer: Yeah. And I think that for other people, I'm sure, that have had really bad parents, it's easy to say—not easy, but it's comfortable to say that I am this way, because of what happened to me. And I'm not saying that that isn't valid, but at some point, you have to find the place within yourself that can heal yourself in order to no longer be tied to what happened to you. And if you continue to look at your parents or your upbringing as the people to blame, well, then they're always going to have all the power over your healing.

[00:52:51] Luke Storey: Yeah, very true. Very true. Well, congratulations on escaping your demise.

[00:52:57] Serena Dyer: Thank you.

[00:52:57] Luke Storey: I mean, especially having kids, it's like you see the generational addiction stuff is so prevalent that often times, when kids see their parents coping in that way, I mean, that's the way it was for me to some degree, the adults in my life were self-medicating often in many cases. And so, I looked around and that's what was modeled, and I said, well, that's how you deal with life, you know what I mean?

[00:53:21] Serena Dyer: Right.

[00:53:21] Luke Storey: And also, I think as you indicated, I was so obviously predisposed to just being obsessive, compulsive, addictive kind of personality. I mean, I still am. I'm still that way. I'm just that way now with healthy things, you know what I mean?

[00:53:36] Serena Dyer: Yeah. But my dad was, too. He was a friend of Bill W.. He was a former alcoholic. 

[00:53:41] Luke Storey: Oh, I didn't know that.

[00:53:42] Serena Dyer: Yeah. He got sober when I was a little kid, so I have no memory or experience of him drinking. He was never, as you are describing, your grandfather. He was more like your grandfather. He had his drinks, but he was never out of control or drunk. But he got to a point where he realized that he was not drinking it, it was drinking him, and he stopped, and he became a friend of Bill W.. And so, I also knew that, this was going to sound like I'm totally blaming my dad, I'm not at all, but I also knew that he did that in his adulthood, that he had had little kids, and I think that there was some part of me that felt like I could cope that way as well.

[00:54:28] Luke Storey: Wow. Did his sobriety have anything to do with that August 30th date or when he found his dad's grave and had that forgiveness experience?

[00:54:39] Serena Dyer: No. So, he stopped his unhealthy shit at that time in 1976. He stopped like eating—he smoked like a pack a day, and he was super overweight, and ate like McDonald's, and drank a lot of soda, like he stopped a lot of that, but he liked Heineken, he still had his Heinekens.

[00:55:02] Luke Storey: I did, too, actually. I forgot about that.

[00:55:05] Serena Dyer: Yeah. He still had his Heinekens in the evening. So, he didn't stop that until, I want to, say, 1986. I was born in '85, so I was like maybe one or two. And he had taken my mom and a bunch of us kids out to dinner, and they got to their favorite restaurant. And my dad ordered his two beers right when he sat down, because he'd like to have two, so we didn't have to wait for the second.

[00:55:32] Luke Storey: Smart. I like the style.

[00:55:33] Serena Dyer: True alcoholic. And the waitress said that the night before, they had served a minor in the presence of an undercover police officer, and they had their liquor license revoked. And so, my dad said, alright, let's go, and he said, we're not eating here. And he made my mom or asked my mom to get back in the car with all of my little brothers, and sisters, and myself, who were all little in car seats and all that, and drove to another restaurant, where he knew he could have his beers. And he said he laid in bed that night and he felt so guilty that my mom, who had had all these little kids and didn't go out to dinner all that often, that my mom's time out was hampered, because he had to have his booze, that he never touched it again.

[00:56:28] Luke Storey: Wow. Damn. Powerful.

[00:56:28] Serena Dyer: Yeah. He had a great level of discipline. I struggled with that.

[00:56:33] Luke Storey: Yeah, the power of love. I mean, whether it's for yourself or the people in your life, I think sometimes, that's the one thread we're able to hang on to and find just a crumb of willingness, you know what I mean?

[00:56:48] Serena Dyer: Yeah.

[00:56:48] Luke Storey: That's great. Well, for some reason, I didn't know that about your dad. I must have missed that along the way. Oh, man. There's so many things I want to talk to you about here. I think there's a lot in your book that is so helpful around our perception of death, and your dad's teachings around death, and that this is a roundtrip ticket, and he seemed to, throughout his life and his teachings, have an awareness that this is not the end of the road for us, but a stop. And I think that was something you talked about a lot and did so beautifully. One thing I wanted to touch on was the sense that you had that your dad on some level knew that he was on his way out and some of those things that happened that were indicative of that knowing.

[00:57:44] Serena Dyer: Yeah, in hindsight, he did. He had some type of, I don't think it was conscious. I think it was some type of subconscious awareness. For example, he had these plants that he was obsessed with. He loved his plants. And he had a lot of plants. And anytime he would go out of town, it would be like just the number of things that we had to do for the goddamn plants was like just insane. Like they couldn't be watered. They had to be waterfalled.

[00:58:09] So, it meant like they had to be brought in the shower and showered, basically, because he wanted them to experience a waterfall. He just loved these plants. It's like his silliness. And he was getting ready to leave his condo in Maui, and he was going to be leaving for August, September, October, November, because the entire condo building where he lived, every single unit, everybody had to be out, because they were replacing the pipes, so everybody had to be out.

[00:58:43] So, he was going to be leaving his condo to go to Australia for a couple of weeks, then come back to Maui, but go to a hotel. And then, we were going to Europe, and then back to a hotel. So, he would not be in his condo for a while. So, his assistant came with the bell cart to collect all of the plants, because she was bringing them to her home to take care of them while he was gone for four months.

[00:59:08] And as she gets there, he says to her, you know what, D., I don't need the plans, you can get rid of them, you can give them to somebody, and she said, what are you talking about? You love these plants. And he looked at her, and he said, where I'm going, I'm not going to need them. And that was the last moment that he was in his home, in his condo ever on Maui. He left, then got in the car, went to the airport, flew to Australia, did three weeks in Australia, came back to Maui, and then died two days after he got back to Maui in a hotel, in the hotel he was staying at.

[00:59:48] So, the fact that he said that he didn't need his plants when he left these plants, I would say that that's a little bit of a sign that he had a knowing. But another example would be that before he died, he had promised each of his children that he would pay for us to go to college or grad school, and he had always done that. So, Saje is the youngest of eight. So, Saje was just beginning her master's degree at NYU.

[01:00:15] And he had had a policy for all eight of his children, for all of our schooling, where at the beginning of the semester, he would give us, he would ask us to let him know the amount of money that it would be for our tuition, room and board, health insurance, car insurance, that kind of thing. And he would pay for us for while we were in school. And so, we would tell him the amount and we would pay for our own education from our own checking account. It was very important to him that we write the check to the institution so that we see how much money it really is. 

[01:00:46] Luke Storey: And to be able to budget, to learn how to budget your money, right?

[01:00:49] Serena Dyer: And we always did, and all of us always did budget, most of us. And Saje was starting her first semester of her master's degree at NYU, and NYU is very expensive and living in New York City is very expensive. So, he sent her the check for whatever the amount was, and this was in January of 2015. So, he died in August of 2015. So, he gave her the money for that semester, for January to May.

[01:01:20] But after he sent her that amount of money, he called her back like a week later, and he said, I'm going to send you the check for the remaining three semesters, and I want you to make sure that you budget that. And this is going to pay for your school. And she said, Dad, why? Like why would you do that? I don't even want to have that amount of money. I don't feel good being responsible for that amount of money.

[01:01:48] She felt nervous about it. And he said, because if something happens to me, I want to make sure that I upheld my promise to you that I would pay for you to finish all of your schooling. And because we had a small lawsuit, not between family members, but with somebody else, after he passed away, that money for her schooling would not have been made available to her right away. And it was only because he had taken steps to send her that check that she was able to finish on time.

[01:02:21] Luke Storey: Wow. So interesting. I love the stories, I mean, that show that knowing. I find that fascinating. And then, sometimes, in the book, because it's you and Saje giving your accounts, I get confused about which one it was, but there were a couple of other things along that line, too. One of them was a text to one of you, maybe it was to Saje about the long eviction is about to be over and it's the end of phase one. Tell us about that. I thought that was really interesting as well.

[01:02:56] Serena Dyer: So, he, as you said before, he talked about death, he looked forward to it in terms of having an awareness that this was a roundtrip ticket and that we all celebrate the first leg of that trip when somebody was born, but we don't often celebrate when that ticket is called. And when his mother passed away and he was holding her ashes, I remember him saying, surely, my mother is more than just this quiet dust.

[01:03:26] And so, I don't want to say he looked forward to death, but it wasn't something that he feared. It was something that he just understood was part of the journey. And he was in Australia with Saje and Skye. And Skye's husband, Mo, and he sent Sage and Sky a text that said, I am looking forward to rest from this long eviction. Phase one is now complete. And he often, because he talked about death, he would refer to this life as phase one.

[01:04:10] And so, one time, there's a documentary on about the death penalty, and he was asked by one of our friends, would you rather have life in prison or the death penalty? And he said, I would rather have life in prison, because there's always, always opportunity to grow, to grow our souls, and that when this phase is complete, and we go to phase two, I want to know that I did everything to maximize my soul's growth. So, he referred to the next part of life, the next journey as phase two. And he did that on more than one occasion, on a lot of occasions, actually. He would say, well, when I'm done with my phase one.

[01:04:55] So, when he said in the text, phase one is now complete, in that moment, Skye and Saje did not think that he was saying, my life is now coming to an end. They thought it was just a weird way for him to say, possibly phase one of the travel journey, because we were—our family was going to Europe after Australia. And so, there was a big travel thing coming up. And so, they thought when he said this long eviction that maybe he just meant, because he was out of his condo for a few months, and the phase one being complete meant phase one of the travel leg, but in hindsight, it seems like you had a knowing that phase one was indeed now complete.

[01:05:41] Luke Storey: Another thing I find interesting about your dad is that he sold gazillions of books. He must have been a wealthy guy. And he was very altruistic. I mean, in the book, you talked about all of these different individual people that he anonymously just gave tons of money to. He helped out all the kids. He was definitely not someone that seemed materialistic or trying to hoard wealth. But I found it interesting that during that whole period on Maui, he lived in a condo when he could have probably had a dope mansion. You know what I mean?

[01:06:10] Serena Dyer: Yeah, he could have.

[01:06:11] Luke Storey: Was he just kind of like low key and modest in that way?

[01:06:14] Serena Dyer: Yes. My God, this is how he lived exorbitantly. If he had a window break in his Toyota—I mean, a Volkswagen SUV, in a Volkswagen SUV, if a window—there was a situation where one of the windows wouldn't come back up, he took it in that day and traded it in for a brand new one, because he would never take the time to get it repaired. So, he could just drop money like that on a new car, but he would never go to the Ferrari lot and get a Ferrari. It was like, he used his money for convenience, but he was not a flashy, like big spending guy. He despised conspicuous consumption. 

[01:07:03] And actually, yeah, there's a thing when we were kids, and my sisters and I, we grew up in Boca Raton. We wanted Louis Vuitton. We wanted the fancy, nice things. And he would just gag over it, but he would get it for us anyway, but he would never buy that stuff for himself. But yeah, he was a really low-hey guy. He lived in Birkenstocks, Lululemon bathing shorts and free T-shirts, like T-shirts that people would send him with like his quotes on them.

[01:07:35] Luke Storey: That's funny. I was wondering about that in the book. I mean, I kind of assumed that, but I'm looking at myself and I like to think of myself as like, oh, I'm not caught up in materialism, but if I sold that many books, my ass would have a mountain at that point. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I found that to be interesting. And then, there was another story along those same lines, I think it was maybe after he'd gotten back from Australia with Saje and Skye. It was maybe your last contact with him, a phone call, and he said, I really, really, really, really love you. And that struck you as being a bit extra, too, to the point of him having a sense somewhere inside. What was that about?

[01:08:15] Serena Dyer: Yeah, it was the last time I ever spoke with him. And, God, that just reminded me, the last time I saw him in person, he cried when we said goodbye. I just remembered that when you said that. But anyway, the last time I spoke with him was the day before he died. He died on the 30th. I spoke with him on the 29th, and just catching up, how are you doing? How are you feeling being back in Maui?

[01:08:40] And he said that he was getting ready to go for a swim in the ocean. And he had been told by like a healer in Canada, like an older Indian man, that if he ever swims in the ocean again, he's going to die. And he thought that he had started to develop a fear while he was swimming in the ocean. He and I, we all thought that that meant he would like get eaten by shark, or drowned, or something like that.

[01:09:04] So, for a while, he did not swim in the ocean. He stopped me in the ocean, even though he used to do it every day. And it wasn't because somebody told him that. It was because what they told him resonated with himself as something he also felt. And anyway, he said to me, I'm looking at the ocean and it looks so good, I think I'm going to go for a swim. And I said, what about what that guy said, though? And he said, if it's my time, it's my time, and I'm at peace with it. 

[01:09:30] And then, he said, anyway, before we go, I want you to know something, I want you to promise me that you'll always look after your sister, one of my sisters. And I said, yeah, I will. And he said, I want you to always make sure that you look out for her, Serena. And I said, I will. And then, he said, and I want you to know that I love you. I really, really, really, really love you. And it gave me pause because he was a very loving, emotional father, but to say it so many times did seem extra. And in hindsight, again, I think he must have known that he was getting ready to depart that night. So, yeah. That was the last time I ever talked to him.

[01:10:16] Luke Storey: And what was it like? I've not had anyone that I'm really close to on my family pass away. And it's one of my fears, because my parents are getting older and, God, it seems so hard to face. But it seems like you, perhaps because of your relationship with death, and the way that your dad perceived death, and your, I guess, psychological framework or understanding of it, it seems like you just kind of leaned into it to the point where you, very shortly after, listen to your dad's podcast. I mean, just like, how do you not just melt down? What was it like to hear your dad's voice when he's there one moment and not the other? What was that like for you in terms of your reconciliation or healing?

[01:11:04] Serena Dyer: Okay. So, I was on the phone when it was discovered that he died. I was on the phone with his assistant when she finally broke into his hotel room with security and found his body. And I experienced that live, that, oh, no, Wayne, no, and that screaming. And I didn't cry when that happened, when that was happening. Everybody that I was with started crying. But I was on the phone and I did not.

[01:11:33] And I think it was because I was having one of those really surreal moments, where I was like, I know that this is happening, but I'm not actually in my body experiencing it. Later that night when I got home and I was alone for the first time, I just started sobbing, and I just kept saying, I can't believe you pulled it off. That was the thought going through my head, because my dad was so dramatic and talked about, when I'm not here, when I'm an old man, and that just seemed like an impossibility to me, because he was so larger than life my whole life.

[01:12:11] And I knew that he talked about death, I knew it was something that he slightly looked forward to, and it didn't seem like it could be real. And so, I just kept saying, I can't believe you pulled it off, I can't believe you pulled it off. And then, I was just really upset, and I felt like I heard him say, listen to my podcast. And I was asking him for a sign, I was like, if everything that you taught is real, if all of this is actually real, then I need like a big fucking sign, like I need like light bulbs to start exploding, like at the very least, lights flickering, like something to let me know that what you taught was real and that you are still here.

[01:12:51] And nothing happened. Nothing was happening. And I was like, you better give me a sign. And I heard him or I felt him something say, listen to his podcast. And excuse me, I didn't even know that I had an app on my phone called Podcast. I had never listened to his podcast before, ever. And when you pull down your phone, you can like search, so I just searched podcast. That app came up. And so, I was like, I have a sweet little app here.

[01:13:19] I opened it. I typed in Wayne Dyer. And I clicked play on the first one that came up. And when I did, I felt comforted to hear his voice, but I felt like it was a very poignant, acute, painful reminder that I was not going to hear it again in the way that I knew it. I did not know him as a recording. I did not know him as a podcast host. I knew him as my dad. And so, it was almost like more painful.

[01:13:49] And I just felt enormously sad. And it was comforting to think like I have all these hours of recordings I could fall back on. But anyway, just as I was about to like—the podcast was like 15 minutes, and just as I was about to end it, he said on the podcast, now, if everyone listening could take a moment and send my daughter Serena some love, because she is going through a hard time, I would really appreciate that. And then, it ended. And I was just like, what?

[01:14:19] Like, you're here, you're real, it's real, what you taught is real. I know that that was the sign that you were telling me that my relationship with you doesn't have to end just because you're not in your physical body, it can just change, it can transform. And love, it does cross all boundaries, all realms, all physical limitations. And when I think of him in that place, in that space, from that energy of love, I do feel him. Absolutely, I do.

[01:14:52] Luke Storey: Wow. So incredible. I love those kind of stories. There's so many of them in your book, too. That's one of the things that made it really juicy to me is because I'm always just looking for those signs, even if they happen for someone else, I'm just like, okay, cool, I'll keep going, I'll keep going. This is real. Each of our individual experiences of spirituality and consciousness are real. And even if you witness it in someone else, it's like, okay, more proof.

[01:15:21] Serena Dyer: And you don't have to have Wayne Dyer as a dad to experience it. I had an incredible sign from my stepson, Mason, just maybe the most confirmation I've ever had in my life when my husband was sentenced to seven years in priso, and Mason had just died like two months before that. And my husband said bye to the girls, and he and I flew to New Orleans, because that was the biggest major airport near the prison in Pensacola where he was going.

[01:15:51] And so, he and I flew to New Orleans after saying bye to the girls, after having just said goodbye to his son, and we rented a car, and we were getting lost. And he was like, let's just stop and get something to eat while we're in New Orleans before we drive to this miserable place. So, we did. It was January 11, 2018. Well, we were going to stop somewhere in New Orleans, but we kept getting lost and we kept going down like New Orleans has a lot of one ways and we just kept getting lost.

[01:16:19] So, he said, let's just pull into this Harris Casino, this valet area, this Harris Casino, and let's just walk somewhere, because we were so distracted by what we were going to do that we couldn't find a place to eat on our phones. And so, we pull into this valet area, and I opened the passenger door to get out, and as I do that, a car, a Mercedes comes flying into the valet area, where I'm like standing, where I'm getting out of the car, so fast that I thought they were going to like hit me, I kind of jumped back, and I like looked at my husband, and I was like, do you believe this asshole? 

[01:16:53] And he said, hold on, hold on, it's my attorney calling. And so, I was like, okay. So, I look back at the car, and on the front license plate of this car, in this exact moment, it says danger on the license plate, and there's a license plate frame, and I obviously took a picture, it says, the frame on the plate says Mason on the top, let there be light on the bottom. And I was like, oh, my God, Matt, you have to come see this.

[01:17:28] And he said, hold on, hold on, my attorney. And I was getting my phone out to take a picture, and then he said, oh, my God, and I could see that he just started like sobbing. And I had gotten so used to getting bad news on phone calls that I thought something bad happened again, that my stomach dropped, and he just started shaking and crying, and he said, I said, what, what, what, what, what's happening? He said, the prosecution who tried our case, they just filed a motion today admitting that they lied and withheld evidence during the trial.

[01:18:07] The judge stated the prison sentence, I'm not going in, I'm going home. And I said to him, it was Mason. It was Mason. In the moment, in the exact moment you got that call, I mean, first, let me just say, I sobbed, and jumped up and down, and I didn't just say this right away, but after some ecstatic celebrating, I said, it was Mason, in the moment you got that call, there was a license plate that pulled up right in front of me, so close I could not ignore it, and it was Mason, let there be light surrounding the danger. I mean, that is a sign I can't ignore.

[01:18:48] Luke Storey: That's crazy. I'm so glad you told that story, because that was one that was in my notes that I love from the book. I like the ones that are just pretty irrefutable. You know what I mean? Like my Ram Dass thing yesterday, I am loving awareness. I'm like, what? How is that even possible in the linear realm? It's just there's something else there. It's the knowing. 

[01:19:09] Oh, man, there's a ton of other things I want to discuss with you here. Let me find the ones that we have time for that are my very favorite things. I think I'd like to talk about in the last few minutes here some of the teachings that you've integrated into your life. In the book, you talked a lot about meditation and how it, for one, I mean, not only has benefited your life and your wellbeing, but how you believed it helped you get pregnant.

[01:19:41] Serena Dyer: Oh, my gosh, yes, Kauai. Yes, I had an incredible another one of those things that it's just impossible to ignore. You're a guy, so not to be too graphic, but I didn't have a period for a long time before I got married. I wasn't having one for whatever reason. And you can't get pregnant without one. And so, right after my husband and I were married, we went to Kauai for our honeymoon, and I had read that Kauai for ancient Hawaiian tradition, our folklore, Kauai is the birthplace of all of civilization.

[01:20:14] So, it's considered a very fertile place to go. And when we landed there, I got into the Uber with my husband, and I immediately asked the Uber driver, have you heard about this like really fertile part of Kauai, where you can go to like some waterfall, and apparently, like everybody gets pregnant. And he was like, yeah, I am like fifth generation, like his whole family was from Kauai. 

[01:20:38] It was like actually like native. And he said, I know exactly what it is and what you're talking about, but it would take you two weeks to hike there. And I was just like, oh, God, we don't have time and I would never survive a hike like that. I'm super not athletic. But anyway, so he said, but there's an offshoot of it. There's another hike that you can do that will take about eight hours roundtrip, really dangerous, really treacherous, but it is a direct offshoot, you hike to this waterfall and that is kind of like the big one flows into this one, so you can get to the smaller one.

[01:21:11] And the last thing I wanted to do on my honeymoon was go exercise or go for a hike, I wanted to like lay at the pool and have margaritas, like I didn't want to do that, but we did. And we did this insane hike and it took a lot. And I was very scared, because it's very steep. But anyway, we get there, and I got to this rock at this waterfall, and I meditated. Before I went into the meditation, I asked God if I could please get pregnant and if it could be, please, be a girl that should be healthy.

[01:21:51] And I listed all these things, beautiful, and creative, and all these different things that I wanted her to be. And then, I meditated. And then, when we left that waterfall, we went to a friend's house that was right there that we had never met before, but they were friends of friends. And when we told them that we were going to Kauai, they said, you have to connect with this couple. So, we connected with them.

[01:22:11] We went to their house and met them for the first time. And Roberta and Gordon Haas are their names, and Gordon looked at me out of the blue when we're sitting at his house, and I just met him, and he said, if you were to get pregnant today with a girl, what would you name her? And I said I would name her, Sailor. And I never asked my husband if he likes that name, but that's what I would name her.

[01:22:36] And he said, I think you're going to get pregnant today. And I was like, really? Like how do you even know we're going to like hook up today? And I remember thinking like, okay, like I don't even know what to say. And he said, I wrote children's books in the '70s, I'm going to give you some. So, he takes out this box set of children's books called the Courtney Flower Book Series, and he signs one, To Sailor, Love Gordon, July 19, 2014.

[01:23:07] And obviously, I forced my husband, I didn't have to force him, but we hooked up that day, because just in case he was right, but I knew there was no possibility, because I still was not having a regular cycle. And so, anyway, we get back from our honeymoon, and I'm just feeling really unwell, and my friend is saying, just take a pregnancy test, you never know. And I was like, I don't want to do that to myself, because I had never taken one before in my life.

[01:23:32] I didn't think that there was any possibility that I was pregnant. And I didn't want to have that feeling of like a reminder that I'm having a fertility issue or I'm having a lack of cycle issue. But I did, because she was so adamant, and it was positive. And so, I called my OB-GYN, and I asked to make an appointment, and they said, when was the first day of your last period? And I said, I don't know.

[01:23:55] I haven't had one in like nine months. And they were like, well, then you need to come in this week. And so, I went in and the first measurement that they take of the embryo is the most accurate, because before the genetics kick in, like you're a tall guy, so your baby could end up being taller, and if you're a smaller person, your baby could end up being smaller, but before all of that takes over, the first couple of measurements are the most accurate, because we all kind of start out the same. 

[01:24:22] And so, they said, well, we know we can't give you a due date based off of your cycle or when you conceived, but we can give you a due date based off of the measurements that we took, and we can give you a conception date based off of the measurements that we took. And I said, okay, great. And they said, your baby was conceived July 19, 2014. And when we got home, I kept thinking I am like 99% sure that's the date that we were at Gordon's. And I pulled out the children's book and it was, it was the day that he said. And when I opened the children's book, it opened to a page in the book that said, Meditation brings a miracle.

[01:25:05] Luke Storey: Wow.

[01:25:06] Serena Dyer: Yeah. And I felt like, well, here comes my miracle. And Sailor, I found out she was a girl in October. And right after I found out that she was a girl, my mutual friend, Eric Handler, called and said that Gordon had passed, and on the same day that I found out that she was a girl, and I felt like somehow he saw my baby coming, maybe because he was on his way out and he knew she was on her way in. Somehow.

[01:25:36] Luke Storey: Wow.

[01:25:37] Serena Dyer: Yeah.

[01:25:37] Luke Storey: What is it that you say in the book about coincidence? I don't know if it's something you wrote or if you quoted your dad, but people's kind of misconception of what coincidence is.

[01:25:45] Serena Dyer: Yeah. We think of a coincidence as like a random happening, but the word coincidence comes from the mathematical term, when two angles fit together perfectly, they're set to coincide. So, we've taken something that means two things fitting together perfectly, and we've reinterpreted it to mean two things that happen by accident or by woo-woo magic. But in a universe where all is in perfect order, there are no such things as accidents or coincidences. It's all just God's perfection.

[01:26:25] It's all just the perfection of all of us, even those of us, even those people that we don't think has any in them, even those situations and circumstances that we think have nothing good in them, there's still God's perfection there. And if I can say that after losing my stepson, who became like my son, if I can say that even in that, it was not an accident, that it was God's perfection, even in the loss of a child to an accidental drug overdose. So, there is ever an opportunity or a reason to say that this is a universe of accidents, that would be it. But now, I know that Mason's life and his death were part of the perfect order of things. And just because I don't understand why it had to be that way now doesn't mean I won't one day.

[01:27:31] Luke Storey: Wow. Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing all this today.

[01:27:34] Serena Dyer: Yeah. You're welcome.

[01:27:35] Luke Storey: I'm so glad we got to do this.

[01:27:37] Serena Dyer: Yeah, me too.

[01:27:38] Luke Storey: Thank you.

[01:27:38] Serena Dyer: Thank you.

[01:27:39] Luke Storey: I find it really fun to dive into someone's book, and then get to kind of relive it in person. It's such a gift. So, thank you for sharing time with me today.

[01:27:48] Serena Dyer: Yeah, thank you for sharing time with me. Sorry that I talked so much, my mouth is dry, I drank all my tea.

[01:27:53] Luke Storey: Oh, I love it. I love it. You could talk all day. This is so inspiring. Thank you. Yeah. You've definitely inherited your pop's gift for inspiration and finding the magic. It's really cool. As I'm sitting here talking to you, I'm like feeling into your dad more, not that you're not your own person, and obviously, like you have your own teachings and your breadth of experience that are so valuable, but there is a certain air of like positivity and optimism, I think, that was just so inherent in your dad's attitude that really comes through.

[01:28:26] Serena Dyer: Yes. And let me just say this, because you said that this is a book that has a lot to do with parenting, that is the—what you just said of how my dad and his positivity and his optimism come through, that is because what we are doing with our lives is so loud that our children don't hear what we're saying. So, my dad lived that. He lived that example of joy, and positivity, and love. And it wasn't just something that he said. It was something that he lived. And so, how could I be any other way? But I was, I was another way. I lost that connection for a little while, but at least I'm finding it again. And I guess the reason I say that is because it's available for everybody, for anybody to find that part of them is loving awareness.

[01:29:33] Luke Storey: Hot damn. Great ending point. Mic drop. Boom. Who have been three teachers, I mean, obviously, your dad, but who have been three other teachers or teachings that have influenced your work that you might share with us?

[01:29:46] Serena Dyer: Alcohol is a big teacher for me. Do you mean people or can it like-

[01:29:52] Luke Storey: Anything. No, I love that. I'm like, how did no one say that before in almost 400 episodes?

[01:29:56] Serena Dyer: Yeah, alcohol. Mason, my stepson. And my mom, Marceline. Because if you want to have like a real biohacking, youthful light, I mean, you should see this woman, she's 70. She had seven children, all natural, all natural childbirths, breastfed all of us until we were two. And she looks like she's younger than me. I mean, she is incredible. She's just biohacking queen. But yeah, alcohol, Mason, and my mom have been three really big teachers.

[01:30:27] Luke Storey: I got to ask you one more question.

[01:30:28] Serena Dyer: Yeah.

[01:30:29] Luke Storey: I forgot. In regard to your parents, and we talked so much about your dad, I'm like, there's actually a lot of great stuff about your mom in your book, too, so let's give her another shoutout. What I found really interesting was that your parents were going to get divorced, which I'm sure was not fun for any of your kids, then they separated, then they elected to actually stay married. And I always wondered, you didn't really answer this part in the book. I'm like, how did that work when they got into new relationships?

[01:30:55] Serena Dyer: Yeah. Well, my mom was already in a new relationship when they—and she's been with the same man, Tony. He's a wonderful guy. He's an acupuncturist—excuse me. She's been in that relationship with Tony and was in a relationship with him when they decided to stay married. So, imagine what that was like. I'm sure it wasn't great between my mom and Tony, but I wasn't privy to it, so I don't know, I couldn't tell you. But yeah, they were going to get divorced, and they were having like a lot of angry, bitter fights.

[01:31:23] And suddenly, money was a topic. And there was just resentment, bitter resentment, and in that time, my dad became extremely depressed, and was just, I don't know, I want to say like just really struggling to like apply his own work to his life now that he was experiencing a difficult situation that was outside of his control. His wife was leaving him. That was it. And he wrote The Power of Intention during that depression, in the midst of that depression, in fact, writing that book is what pulled him out of it.

[01:32:02] Luke Storey: Wow.

[01:32:02] Serena Dyer: Yeah.

[01:32:03] Luke Storey: Pressure makes the diamond.

[01:32:04] Serena Dyer: Yeah. And a lot of people, I think, don't realize that he wrote that book, which became the second biggest seller of his, after Erroneous Zones, then it was Power of Intention. And again, it was during a time of deep despair for him, where he was really having to do the work for himself again. And anyway, after he wrote that book, and he was like on a speaking tour, and he was no longer in his depression, they decided that they didn't need to get divorced, and that they didn't need to split up money, and that they didn't need to have attorneys tell them what they already knew, which was that they wanted to stay friends, but they didn't want to stay married.

[01:32:49] And so, they stayed married and became really good friends, and they recommitted to each other through love. And I have to tell you this, my parents' relationship became closer, and better, and stronger afterward. In fact, so much so that they spoke on the phone, there was no person that my dad talked to on the phone more than my mom, and vice versa. They became each other's truest, best friends, and had a love for each other that was just what we all should aspire to have.

[01:33:20] Luke Storey: Wow, thank you for sharing that. I'm glad I remembered. That was one thing in the book, I'm like, how does that work? But I mean, it's very aspirational, right? I mean, one could hope, when we're in love with someone pre-breakup, it's like we're going to be friends forever. I mean, don't we all say that? If anything ever happens, let's promise we'll be.

[01:33:38] And it's like, well, people change, people grow, some people don't grow, et cetera. And then, it's not that often that that's the case, or that as people enter into new relationships, that that's still healthy and feasible in any way. So, I think that's what caught me, too. I can't imagine ever not being with my beloved Alyson, but if we did, like I can't be Tony. You know what I'm saying?

[01:34:04] Serena Dyer: It takes a special person to be Tony. I could not be Tony either. In fact, I just-

[01:34:10] Luke Storey: That acupuncture is working miracles.

[01:34:11] Serena Dyer: Yeah, exactly. They're all incredible, and that's because like attracts like.

[01:34:19] Luke Storey: Yeah. Elevated. Elevated way to handle that. So, thank you for sharing. Where can people find you? Any social media website, book, anything you want to plug here at the end?

[01:34:28] Serena Dyer: Well, The Knowing. So, thank you for graciously having the book on display.

[01:34:34] Luke Storey: I always have the books here in the videos.

[01:34:36] Serena Dyer: Yeah, I know. But it's still fun when it's mine.

[01:34:38] Luke Storey: It is. Sometimes, it's like a cheat sheet, too. I'll be like, oh, I want to read this one page or something.

[01:34:43] Serena Dyer: Yeah, but I'm on Facebook, and Instagram, and all of the—I don't know if I'm on Twitter, but all of the normal social media things, Serena Dyer or Serena Dyer Pisoni. Like my name is on the book, it's my married name.

[01:34:57] Luke Storey: Okay. Great. Well, thank you so much for coming today.

[01:35:00] Serena Dyer: Thank you for having me.

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