[00:00:01] Luke: It's funny having you over to the house, Debra, and the first thing you do is ask me, what kind of water are we working with? I was like, "I love that because I'm a water fanatic." And you're like, "Oh, have you heard about this hydrogen water bottle?" I'm like, "Oh, that's the one I have right here." And you're like, "I know this is going to sound crazy, but I drink this stuff called deuterium depleted water." I'm like, "I love you already."

[00:00:21] Debra: Telling all my secrets. I don't tell people this really.

[00:00:23] Luke: Birds of a feather. Well, now you know how to explain it in very simple terms.

[00:00:26] Debra: I know. Thank you for that. That was really particular--

[00:00:28] Luke: It took me about six years to explain why I drink that water to people.

[00:00:31] Debra: So it's a worthy conversation as a double Scorpio that the water element, which is what we're beginning with, how auspicious the water element is all about. We enter the day with water. Think of how you wake up in the morning, take a shower, you brush your teeth, you have a cup of tea, a cup of coffee. You do your prayers. You do your meditation. That's water.

[00:00:50] We're starting this whole entrance here with water. But so few people understand that. It's a very ancient way that you would begin the day with a prayer, starting the day by saying, "Oh, how can I be of service to my incarnation since I'm back in this thing again?"

[00:01:09] And that's the water element, is the remembrance of the holy, of the spiritual, the non-verbal, the quiet part. And most of us just trample. We just run into the day and jump into our phones and run into the busy and here come the kids.

[00:01:22] Luke: Oh man. I have a morning routine that is just ridiculously long. I'm just that type of person, Alyson-- it's interesting. You see the contrast when you live with someone. Alyson wakes up super perky, alert. I guess she has her own little morning routine. I don't know exactly what she's doing, but I'm meditating for an hour. I got an ice bath. It's like two or three hours before I feel like I can interface with other people.

[00:01:50] Debra: That's the 12th house. That's those little glasses. I was going to wear my sunglasses because of you. But that is the entrance for you into the physical experience. Takes a moment.

[00:01:58] Luke: It takes a while to get back in my body.

[00:02:01] Debra: Because you're 12th house. You live in the dream world. So when you come into form, you're like, "Give me a minute. Give me a minute." That was eight hours in one world. You're have to jump out. It'd be like running out of the house as soon as you wake up, as soon as you enter the next thing we're going to do. No, we walk.

[00:02:16] Luke: If I have some appointment or something at 9:00 AM, like I have a men's group, we meet once a month and we meet at 9:00 AM, and every time we have that meeting, I'm like, "I'm quitting. I'm dropping out of the group. Who can do this? Who can be in their car at 8:00 AM driving across town?" I'm like, "This is ridiculous." Of course, then I go. We have a great time, and I go, "All right, I can do it." But yeah.

[00:02:37] Debra: That's the difference between a water personality who needs time and a fire person who wakes up really loud and ready to jump into the day. And I have a lot more fire than you do, so I do yoga at 6.30 in the morning.

[00:02:50] Luke: Yeah. Those people are aliens to me.

[00:02:53] Debra: They're not an alien.

[00:02:55] Luke: Someone that wakes up and is ready to talk right away.

[00:03:00] Debra: But that's so perfect, because that's water. You're describing the elemental conversation we're about to have. And water people, it's an energetic, slow sensitivity that requires time to make the shift and adjust the energetics. For people that are fire, they just push right into the energy and make a change.

[00:03:17] Or earth people who have a list of things to do that are like, you sensitive? Too bad you're so sensitive. That's the earth person to the water. And the air person's like, that's interesting. "Well, what do you do in the morning? Tell me all the things. I'm going to write it down." They're going to research you, include the information. And the water person's like, "Not right now. I'll tell you the information when I'm ready and my energetic body has reached this moment with calm." And that's really important to know.

[00:03:45] Luke: Yeah. It took me a long time to understand that. And also to give other people grace, knowing that their blueprint is different than mine. So I don't think they're insane or annoying. But yeah, I think what I experience when I wake up, because we're dreaming, I'm in this other world that seems very real and I'm not convinced that it's not. Maybe this is the dream and when you're asleep is your real life.

[00:04:11] Debra: That's the truth.

[00:04:12] Luke: It's debatable.

[00:04:12] Debra: That's not debatable. That's the truth.

[00:04:14] Luke: When I wake up, it literally takes me a while to just--

[00:04:18] Debra: Because you were in another world. The debate's got to be put to sleep. The truth is we live in two different realities. We spend eight hours a day-- this is the craziest thing. When you think about it more than five minutes, you're like, this is so weird. Take off your clothes, turn off the lights. Everybody feels safe.

[00:04:36] We're going to close our eyes and go where and remember what? And come back going, oh, that felt so good. But there's no recall. There's no consciousness. And your whole chart, I don't know if you know this-- I don't know how much you know about this. You have four--

[00:04:49] Luke: I know nothing.

[00:04:50] Debra: Four planets in the house of the dreamer all in a water sign. So compounded by your sensitivity is the arena it happens in. For you is the dream world. You have four planets in the house of the dreamer. So that is a real world.

[00:05:05] Luke: It feels very real. So as we kick off here, I'm always intrigued by the way people end up in that seat where you are. In so much as I'm interested in so many topics, I'm fascinated by the human experience, who we are, why we're here, the nature of this realm, the nature of consciousness, our unique blueprints, types, personalities, all the things, our physical body, our vitality, longevity. I just am like infinitely curious. And I always feel like, well, I've covered every modality, every topic because it's been eight, nine years or something I've been doing this.

[00:05:47] Debra: Every single week.

[00:05:48] Luke: Yeah. I do five shows a month. We're up to, I don't know, five, 600 shows or something. But it's funny because you sat down. I was like, "What the hell? I've never done a show on astrology?" That's like such a huge part of many people's lives for eons, which we're going to learn from you.

[00:06:06] And I realized it's because I'm always waiting for the master to appear. I'm sure many other people in the world know some things about astrology and such, but that's part of why I think the show has been as successful as it is. I have a really strong intuition when I find the person that's going to be able to communicate a teaching or whatever information and wisdom they carry.

[00:06:29] Debra: The codes. The call them now the codes.

[00:06:30] Luke: Yeah, the codes. To my people, to the people that resonate with the way I present information. And so you sat down. I was like, "Oh, this is why I've never done it." Because I didn't know you yet. So here we are. So I'm really glad to have you.

[00:06:44] Debra: I'm honored.

[00:06:45] Luke: Yeah. Shout out to Garen and Blair for inviting us over to dinner a couple of months ago. And Alyson was aware of your work and I wasn't. And she's like, "Oh, this is exciting." She's going to be really fun to meet and you were, and you are. So here we are drinking our deuterium depleted water.

[00:07:01] Debra: I'm going to drink to that.

[00:07:02] Luke: Ready to rock and roll. First thing I want to tell you is that I have a little to no understanding of astrology, so you're going to be talking to a newbie.

[00:07:14] Debra: Little to no understanding.

[00:07:15] Luke: Yeah. Which is funny because my mom was pretty into astrology, I guess still is, and her mother as well. And so my mom's told me this story a few times where when I was supposed to be born, as the clock was ticking, it was looking like I was going to be a triple Scorpio. And my mother and her mother were freaking out because of their understanding of astrology and were like, we don't want to triple Scorpio. And then I was either early or late and I had a moon in Libra that saved the day.

[00:07:45] Debra: Just about to move into Scorpio.

[00:07:47] Luke: So that's about all I know. But I want to say, one thing that has made it intriguing to me is that throughout my life, the vast majority of my close relationships, romantic and platonic, have been one of three signs almost exclusively. Other Scorpios, Libras, and Virgos.

[00:08:10] Alyson's a Capricorn. I think she's the first Capricorn I've ever known intimately. So I thought that was interesting. So I asked someone that knew about astrology. At one point I said, "These are the fall signs, right? Libra, Virgo, Scorpio." And so I always just assumed that more people were making babies early in the year and that there was just much more of those three signs. So the ratio of those three signs is higher.

[00:08:35] Debra: Love this story.

[00:08:37] Luke: And then the astrologist person, I forget who it was, was like, "It doesn't work like that." People have sex all the time. I was like, "Okay, cool." I'm a believer then because it's uncanny. It's like bizarre that--

[00:08:48] Debra: You have five [Inaudible] of Scorpio.

[00:08:49] Luke: So many of those.

[00:08:50] Debra: You probably didn't know that either. Sun, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Neptune. That's five. And you're rising. You are an archetypical, perfect picture of a Scorpio.

[00:09:04] Luke: Wow. So there we go.

[00:09:04] Debra: You want me to translate that?

[00:09:06] Luke: Yeah.

[00:09:04] Debra: My throat's a little funny. Translation. Scorpios are the only sign that will destroy their ego and the quest of their soul. They'll do anything to get closer to themselves, even if it means destroying what looks normal, what makes them comfortable, makes people like them. They don't care. They're like, "Listen to me." They're so severe. Listen to me. The most important thing in this existence is to be in service to a soul, to have the Godhead or a visual of the one to whom I serve. It's not me.

[00:09:39] Luke: Wow.

[00:09:40] Debra: That's pretty radical.

[00:09:41] Luke: That's very true.

[00:09:43] Debra: And that prevents the normal lifestyle from being acceptable, because you're destroying the fake facades or the illusions or the pretense in the quest for the real thing, which means saying no to a lot of things.

[00:09:56] Luke: Wow. Very true.

[00:09:57] Debra: And people think, God, they're so mean. They're always saying, no. They're so edgy. They're so opinionated. They're so strong. They are so uncompromising. Have you been accused of that?

[00:10:08] Luke: Yeah. Hopefully not mean too often because I think I'm--

[00:10:14] Debra: Well, you also have three planets in Libra.

[00:10:16] Luke: Pretty kindhearted person generally.

[00:10:18] Debra: You have five in Scorpio and three in Libra, and Libra is the sweetheart. So that's the little spice.

[00:10:23] Luke: That's why my mom and grandma were stoked. I was a handful anyway with that. That brings me to another question. I have a million questions here that are more in the linear order that I plan to go and never do.

[00:10:39] Over the past few years with the wild ass changes we've seen in the world and so much authoritarian overreach and the media has exposed itself as being largely fraudulent and full of propaganda and whatnot, it's been an interesting study of people to see those that have been driven further into a desire to understand truth, even if it's an uncomfortable truth.

[00:11:10] And then there have been a large swath of the population that seemed to value comfort and certainty more than they value the sometimes painful truth. I don't think one's better than the other, but it's helped me with my compassion for people that I would have judged as sheep before, to be honest. Because I'm just like, "You idiots, why are you going along with this? What is wrong with you?"

[00:11:34] Debra: So Scorpio.

[00:11:35] Luke: And at some point I've just realized, you know what, just like I can't help the way I was born and wired where I'm willing to face really gnarly truths about my life, my experience, myself, the world, government, medicine, whatever it is, it's like, even if it's terrible and evil, I would rather know, even if it's scary, than put my head in the sand, and you can't make me not be that way.

[00:12:00] There's nothing I could do to be the other way. So I realized, oh, people that just blindly follow authority to the gas chamber or to the noose or wherever they're going to end up, they can't help being that way either. They want an authority figure to keep them safe. And so I have much more compassion for those people knowing that that's how they are. Do astrological signs play into that, just to broadly say, a value system of truth versus comfort?

[00:12:34] Debra: Definitely, it's a yes. There are particular personality types who thrive on repetition, familiarity, staying and maintaining status quo, and taking the course of action and not deviating. And then there's the deviants who are the ones that are the independent thinkers, who can't follow, who don't fit in, and then don't want to fit in.

[00:12:57] And they're the opposite. It's like split parties, or the sun and the moon, or the male and the female. And our tendency, as you described, is to want to judge the shit out of the ones that aren't like us. What's wrong with you? What happened to you? Did you not read the memo? Did you not drink the Kool Aid? Or did I drink the Kool Aid? What's wrong with the story? Nothing's wrong.

[00:13:15] Luke: Do you have eyes and ears?

[00:13:17] Debra: But that is the distinction about understanding the multiplicity of the human condition. And once that's acceptable, once we actually entertain and actually go past tolerating, but be fascinated by the distinctions, that's what astrology does.

[00:13:31] It makes me understand, wow, I'm sitting next to someone who doesn't want to talk, and they have no interest in my fascination. Because I'm like you, three planets in Libra. I am Libra rising. I am endlessly fascinated. It's like a kid in a candy store.

[00:13:46] That social media game that you're all playing right now is so addicting because my mind is like at the candy store with learning new things. But some people are like, shh. Why do you talk all the time? What's the need for all this intellectual stimulation? Why don't we go outside and farm? Why don't we go take care of the animals? What about the kids? What about planting and making things and being quiet and working with the hammer?

[00:14:11] So there's differences, but we tend to create-- why we like each other so much is we're so similar. Like, oh, I love these conversations. So once I became less dependent on the same same and realize that diversity was really a word that exists in this reality for a reason, you've got to have 12 different signs. We have all these different cultures, skin colors, people from ETs that land on this planet. We don't know that they're that.

[00:14:41] We have different languages. We have different ways of operating from our nervous system. Some people need to be cold. Some people need to be hot. And once I began to-- for me, this is me as an elder, I became much more, to your user word, compassionate, like, we're so weird and different. And I'm so glad you're you so I can talk like this. And I won't be comfortable sitting next to someone who's a farmer because I don't know what to say to him. So be okay about the distinction without judging it.

[00:15:09] Luke: Yeah, it feels a lot better. And I think all of that just became more pronounced in the past few years because so much polarity was created under the stress of all the things that have happened, just the unraveling of all these institutions and our faith in these institutions.

[00:15:31] Debra: And the pretense of us being safe by doing same, same and be given instructions and following. That's done now. So we're in the Aquarian age, which is all about breaking the rules that our family-- I grew up in an era where you couldn't talk about astrology on a-- this would be unheard of, the astrologer that showed up on a camera that was going viral on a computer, and it was a woman.

[00:15:54] There were no women astrologers until 30 years ago. They weren't allowed. First of all, think about astrologers. They were all working for the kings and the queens and the high levels, working for the courts, in the back room. And they were all men that knew how to do math. It's very mathematical, very left brain.

[00:16:13] So it excluded the women. It excluded the women, excluded anyone that wasn't wealthy, intellectually advanced, that didn't have a mathematical prowess. So there was a very limited audience. And now I have a school, and they're all women. I feel like the pendulum went, whoop. Now all the women want to study astrology. And now we have computers. We push a button. There's no more math involved. This whole thing happened in one second.

[00:16:38] Luke: That's funny.

[00:16:39] Debra: It would have taken me hours and hours to execute this chart, just before computer. When I started studying astrology-- I hope I'm not doing something, but I am a little crazy.

[00:16:49] Luke: That's all right. Get wild.

[00:16:50] Debra: I like being wild. Is that okay? Everybody's having fun so far? When I started studying--

[00:16:54] Luke: There's [Inaudible] inside of this thing.

[00:16:55] Debra: Oh, I thought so.

[00:16:56] Luke: Yeah. It's fairly shock-proof.

[00:16:57] Debra: Nobody gets hurt.

[00:16:59] Luke: No.

[00:17:0] Debra: That's going to be a little short, I bet. Okay. When I first started studying astrology, I was young. It was before the computers came out. 10 years old, I got interested. So it was peculiar that my soul's urge was showing up. And then I found out there was all this math involved. You can imagine.

[00:17:20] I've never told anyone this before. In order to create a chart, the mathematical equations required and the amount of time to execute, the equations to figure out where was the moon at that moment in that city at that time.

[00:17:32] That's why we asked for your birth time, date, and place. We take up a camera, the astronomer, take a picture of that moment, then execute the chart to reflect that moment. And then I look at the chart and go, his sun, his moon, his Mercury and Venus were all standing in one spot. Very unfamiliar. That's unusual, once in a lifetime.

[00:17:53] This chart is so extreme because the sun was in Scorpio, the moon was in Scorpio. Right next to it was Jupiter and Mercury. They were all sandwiched. Four planets standing in one spot. Now, that sounds like a mouthful. What it means is that there's a concentration of energy this soul signed up for and he said, "I'm going for the serious shit."

[00:18:16] Don't be doing halftime. Don't be doing sorta, kinda. I'm going for the straight goods. Well, that came with the soul that your little child your mom and grandma had to deal with this unbelievable intensity like, what do we do to turn this thing down? I can't find the knob. Well, he will figure it out when he gets older after he does enough addiction, and enough distraction will get his attention. How'd I do?

[00:18:37] Luke: Spot on. 100%.

[00:18:38] Debra: That's what astrology does. It gives me the shortcut to understanding the soul's agreement.

[00:18:42] Luke: Well, to the point of the math, that's interesting because the chart that I was trying to find this morning frantically, which it's been in my filing cabinet for 20 years. My mom sent it to me years ago and I thought, I'm going to need that someday. So I've had it in a very specific file. I don't know what I'm going to do with it, but it's like your birth certificate, things like that. It was in there. Couldn't find it. But I remember looking at it and it was meaningless to me because it was so complex. It was very equational. There was obviously a lot of math that went into--

[00:19:09] Debra: It's hieroglyphics. It's Egyptian hieroglyphics.

[00:19:10] Luke: Yeah. It meant nothing to me.

[00:19:13] Debra: Yeah, Egyptian hieroglyphics.

[00:19:14] Luke: So hung on to it hoping to meet someone like you. They go, "Oh yeah, I know what this means."

[00:19:18] Debra: Well, the good news is I'm here.

[00:19:20] Luke: So the interesting thing about astrology to me too, as admittedly a novice and not knowing much about it, not being a disbeliever, but not being just frankly that interested in it. But another thing that's anchored my interest to it to some degree is just hopefully having the humility to acknowledge that what's going on in the cosmos at the time you leave your mother's body and become your own body on that planet, it's got to have some impact.

[00:19:53] You know what I mean? I don't know what it does, but there's just no way it does nothing. So that's where my curiosity comes from. The other thing is, and I don't know if you could do this--

[00:20:02] Debra: I love that. I love that. Yes. The other thing?

[00:20:04] Luke: Well, the other thing is, over the past, I don't know, few decades, a hundred years, the way our cosmology has been explained to us in this heliocentric model versus the geocentric model. It's got me really interested because I'm always looking for the truth. I'm like, I just don't believe anything at face value, especially if it's coming from the institutions that have historically been so deceptive and dishonest.

[00:20:31] So I had a guy named Flat Earth Dave on here a couple of months ago on the show. It's fascinating. And he's just giving me a different understanding of the cosmos. And in meeting him and just seeing things on social media and going down some rabbit holes, I've seen people with these very powerful telescopic camera lenses and they're looking up at planets.

[00:20:55] And we've been shown CGI cartoons of Jupiter and Pluto, and they're just like Earth, only smaller and different color and don't have trees and water. Well, people now are showing you planets and they're like these balls of light. They're undulating. They're like cymatics. They're not what we've been told. And these are citizen journalists, not NASA.

[00:21:16] I trust NASA, but as far as I could throw one of their rocket ships. So that actually made me more interested in astrology, is seeing stars and planets as these pulsing fields of energy, these toroidal fields. And thinking about, well, if I was looking at earth, whatever shape it is, from out there, whatever that is, the earth probably has a similar energetic imprint.

[00:21:41] And so I started just thinking about how we tie into the cosmos. And I was like, "God." And our bodies are made of water per molecule, 99%, and you see how the moon and it affects the tides and all this stuff supposedly. So that's been really interesting to me and it's--

[00:21:58] Debra: You're a trippy guy.

[00:22:01] Luke: Reinvigorated my interest in how the stars and planets affect us. That's what I'm saying.

[00:22:05] Debra: That was a long-winded way to say, yes. I'm going to answer yes. And the point you're bringing is you're doing all left brain right now. You're using the left brain to make a case. You're doing a case right now that the human condition built by this unbelievable, moving, thriving universe that we now take pictures of, we've got evidence that there are live substances. It's so far beyond my cute little payroll. I'm sorry.

[00:22:31] So as an astrologer, I suspended any of those. I'm interested. I go to the planetarium. I can't retain a thing. I try. I watch it more than once. I take notes. I've been going to the planetarium for years, but what I didn't have stick to my brain without ever forgetting it, now that I've seen your chart, the real question is, I can't figure out the nature of the cosmos. It's bigger than my small little brain.

[00:22:52] Cute as I am, my brain is not cute. It's quirky, and it has little ways that I get fascinated and other parts I don't remember a thing, but I'm so interested. What I do know for sure, which is crazy, is I've done this almost 50 years. I can look at any chart at all and describe the person's life lesson and what their essence is and what they came with as issues and how they're going to have to work through these particular karmic promises. And that once they do, here's the high road. Here's the low road.

[00:23:21] So all the scientific part, while I'm nerdy in fascination, it doesn't stick. I think it sticks in your head because of the way you described the deuterium depleted water. I was impressed. But I do remember the emotional content, how I can penetrate somebody's emotional body enough to get them reconnected to life.

[00:23:40] To remind them that they're not a curse. That whatever's happened to them, whatever your stupid-- I call them stupid stories. Whatever your stupid story was completely orchestrated, organized by this chart because there was agreements you made. I can't show you the paperwork. I don't know where you signed it, but I have evidence by your stories.

[00:23:57] So I'm less scientific in my appetite, although I'd go to a planetarium anytime you want and talk about it and read about it. My left brain has a slippery slope. My right brain, my emotional intelligence, my ability to feel you, that's where I have retention, and where I have less explanation but more description.

[00:24:18] Luke: Perfect. I had no idea that at one point astrology was a male-dominated study, which is interesting to me because I don't know, I don't think any men that are deeply interested in it, but women seem very interested in it. And I think the intuitive nature of the feminine just likes the mystical. I don't know many guys that collect crystals. There's all kinds of things.

[00:24:41] Debra: It's the same thing about yoga. Think about all the yogis that lived in India who were men, and now there's a million women doing yoga. It's the same kind of thing. Think about rabbis. There was never, ever a female rabbi till 1980. It was all men. Women were not allowed to be rabbis. And now there's this beautiful movement in the Jewish renewal.

[00:25:01] In any of the Jewish new versions where women are canters and singing and doing all the things they couldn't do before. So the pendulum swinging, which is why we see so many women all over this planet being in circles and doing yoga and learning about health food and watching Oprah, it's an epidemic.

[00:25:19] I always go, "Where are all the boys?" Well, they had their turn. Let the spectrum be in the middle. So I love when there's male students that come to my school. I have a lot of astrology students that are women, 98%.

[00:25:35] Luke: Really? That high, huh?

[00:25:36] Debra: Mm-hmm. And all the women that work in my company, I have 30 mentors, and 20 employees are all women. So I've made up for lost time.

[00:25:44] Luke: What a wild operation you have. This is skipping ahead. I'm going to skip all over. It seems like you can roll with that non-linear approach to a podcast. Tell me about your school. To have 20 employees, you're doing something. You're serving a lot of people. I have a couple of contractors.

[00:26:04] Debra: That guy behind the scenes?

[00:26:05] Luke: Yeah, Jarrod. And I know a few other people and I feel like, "Man, this is a lot to manage." And they're all very self-autonomous and all that. But how has your business evolved in sharing this information with people?

[00:26:19] Debra: It's funny because you have a community-oriented chart. You have three planets in the 11th house. That's the house of community, of astrology, of science, of open-mindedness, of collecting people to educate them. It's one of your big flavors why this podcast is so relevant to your chart.

[00:26:36] I didn't know I was a business woman. I had no idea. I was a healer for over 40 years. I had a private practice as an astrologer and as a psychotherapist. The woman lives here in Austin. One day a woman called Destiny got a reading from me. This is the funniest thing. And ever since I met her, I had meetings every Monday morning with Destiny. That's funny.

[00:26:56] Destiny showed me how to use the Internet and showed me that I had a tool called Astrology that could be marketed with a formula and some modules. And so I designed a very simple process. It happens twice a year. This is coming to our 10th year in September. Maybe between 400 to 600 students come and work with us. And they get put into a small class.

[00:27:18] I don't believe in lots of numbers. I want things to be personalized. Every single classroom, there's only 10 people in the room, and there's one mentor who studied your chart before you got there. And she takes you through step by step. Just baby steps.

[00:27:31] You're so smart. We're not all so intellectual like you. You've got three planets in Libra, and you have a mystic that's insatiable. You're on a mission, poor guy, and your wife is, too, so that's good, because you could drive each other nuts if you weren't. So I also had a mission, and I'm much more community-based.

[00:27:50] And I figured out the formula that if I get you talking about you, you'll talk for hours. I figured that out as a practitioner. And then I created an astrology school that was based on you, the first level one, just getting to know your karma, your agreements, your shadow, your favorite topic. And then I did a second level after six weeks. You come back again if you're interested and then you learn how to do a reading.

[00:28:14] And then people actually become astrologers. And that's those 30 mentors, they all went through the school. They all became teachers, and now every year they get these classes and I get to send them-- it's the funniest. I don't know who made this up.

[00:28:26] Luke: That's so cool.

[00:28:29] Debra: To be perfectly honest, I've realized that my manifestation-- once again, I see your left brain and your articulation. I call it womanfestation. My womanfestation is instinctual, and I get directions from home office. So Destiny arrived and she asked me if I wanted to do-- I was like, "What does that even mean?" I was too old. I never heard of that. An online school?

[00:28:55] Luke: Yeah, your age is 70 now?

[00:28:57] Debra: I'm going to be 72 in a little over two years.

[00:28:59] Luke: Damn, you have a lot of energy. I hope I'm doing that well at 70 and looking that well.

[00:29:04] Debra: Should we talk about the water I drink?

[00:29:05] Luke: Deuterium depleted water.

[00:29:06] Debra: Should I talk about my diet?

[00:29:08] Luke: I'm telling you, man.

[00:29:08] Debra: Should we talk about what I do every day? I follow the four elements.

[00:29:11] Luke: This shit works.

[00:29:11] Debra: Should we talk about how young I was when I started?

[00:29:15] Luke: How'd you get into the health stuff? Hydrogen water, deuterium depleted water, this isn't like, oh, I ate a kale smoothie. Yeah, it's pretty advanced level stuff that you have to do a bit of research to even find out about those things.

[00:29:29] Debra: It's very similar to the business. You ask the same. Now you've asked two questions that resonate. Once again, I am a very good listener, and I have registered my body at a very young age. I was a dancer my first half of my life, and I realized that my body was this really trustworthy instrument. And I never lost that awareness.

[00:29:48] And I watched everyone getting older and getting tired and getting lazier, not on their fault, but gaining weight. And I watched them change their diet and not change their diet. They started eating everything and they never became aware it was altering their ability to receive information or sensitivity or energetics or sustainability.

[00:30:08] I watched it. So I can't say I'm one of those people that were like, I'm going to go be a businesswoman, or I'm going to go be a health nut. It all just came so instinctively because I listen. And so I tattooed on my arm the words listen and silent. In order to listen, you've got to stop talking. In order to listen, you've got to be silent.

[00:30:29] You have to let spirit find her way. And at a very young age, listening was always a natural thing for me. I'm nosy. Let's start there. Libra. I'm super nosy. And I have Scorpio in me, so I like when it's scary and dark. Like tell me you're scared. I like that.

[00:30:47] Luke: Do you think that is one of the things that drew you towards psychotherapy?

[00:30:51] Debra: 100%. I'm just plain nosy and I like the scary stuff. I'm just going to say it out loud.

[00:30:54] Luke: It's a perfect career.

[00:30:56] Debra: It's a perfect career. And then my Gemini is funny enough. Thank God I'm a little funny that I could take all that scary shit and make it into funny.

[00:31:02] Luke: And also disarm people and create a sense of comfort, I imagine.

[00:31:07] Debra: Yes, my new book, I wanted to call it You're Fucked Up and I Still Like You, but they wouldn't let me call it that. But that's basically what I feel like astrology is, like, yes, you're quirky. Yes, you have a strange personality type. Yes, you like to sleep. Yes, you have dreams. You live in another world. It seems fucked up, but it's not.

[00:31:23] And that's essentially what my astrology does. It helps people realize that the quirky, idiosyncratic personality chunky pieces, the part of you that's a little embarrassing, like, why do I talk so much? Why do I ask so much? Why am I so nosy? Why do I stare? You stare. Well, it's Scorpio.

[00:31:43] And then once I had language for it, I can't explain how I found astrology or why I got so healthy so young or how I started the business, but what I can tell you is I am a devoted spiritual listener. And that requires practice. Not interrupting. You're so good at it.

[00:32:02] Luke: Well, what's helped me be good at it is people critiquing me online. Why don't you shut up and let the guest talk? I'm like, "I get excited. It's hard."

[00:32:12] Debra: I see you as a profound listener.

[00:32:14] Luke: I like to think so.

[00:32:15] Debra: It's a skill. It's a skill.

[00:32:17] Luke: Yeah. Hopefully, you take cues and improve. But also, I really love people and I'm really interested in people. One of the benefits of being the host of a show and someone who has the deciding power, however limited that power might be in the great scheme of things, I only talk to people that I'm really interested in talking to. And there's amazing, brilliant--

[00:32:38] Debra: And I passed the test.

[00:32:40] Luke: Yeah. There's amazing, brilliant people out there all day long. I could do 20 podcasts a day with great people, but there's a certain essence that I'm tuned into that makes me want to listen to the person I'm sitting across from. And it's very rare that I'm not deeply inspired and educated.

[00:32:57] Debra: And you get a gut feeling so fast, like we were sitting at dinner and you were like, you can be on my podcast.

[00:33:02] Luke: Yes, exactly.

[00:33:03] Debra: See, that's something for the audience to hear, back to you, is that instinctual knowing, which is water, requires you knowing yourself enough to trust that. And I bet there's been years in your younger years where you weren't listening to your intuition to that extreme state, especially in relationships.

[00:33:18] People jump into relationships. I always say Cupid's blind. She pulls the thing out, and you're in love and you're like, "Did you want to ask me a question?" No, I'm in love. And then you have to go review what just happened and is this karmically right and is this serving me? And am I in the right relationship?

[00:33:33] And how do I even know? And yes, astrology can help. But a better question is that instinctual peace you have, that deep knowing, which gives you the permission to draw the right people, that's a superpower. And you can't explain it.

[00:33:47] Luke: That's true. And I have to-- being a recovered people pleaser, there are many people that invite themselves onto the podcast, and I'm so honored and I respect their interest. I really appreciate that anyone would want to sit here for whatever the reasons are, but it's been a difficult process for me to learn how to politely decline those.

[00:34:10] And I don't have a reason other than I just don't have that feeling that I'm familiar with. It's not there. It's like if you're attracted to someone or not, it's like, I don't know why. They check all the boxes, but I just don't have the vibe.

[00:34:24] Debra: So here's the good news about your chart I was waiting to tell you. When you were born, Saturn was opposite all that Scorpio. So you have five planets in Scorpio. Imagine they're all here. And then Saturn was exactly opposite. So Saturn is my favorite planet in our school. I spent a lot of time on Saturn.

[00:34:39] He's the old man of the zodiac. He's the high school principal. He's grumpy. It's like the guy that goes, "Hey, Luke. Come here." You're a little scared of him because he's not friendly, but if you say to him, "I've done my work. I got everything done. I was on time. I was responsible." He loves you.

[00:34:56] If you say to him, "God forbid, God is forbid. You were late. You forgot your homework. The dog ate it." He's like, "Really?" And he's scary. And you were born with that guy across from you all the time. So it instills discipline. You came in this life with like, I'm not going to not get the right answer. I'm not going to do what they tell me.

[00:35:15] Now, I'm taking responsibility for my internal instructions and I will do what they tell me to do. And not everybody has that. That's why you're in love with the Capricorn, because Saturn rules Capricorn. People that have that skill of discipline, follow through, being responsible, doing their taxes, cleaning their car, creating sacred space, you're like, ooh, I like that person.

[00:35:35] Being on time, big one for me. But not everyone has that, so this lifetime you inherited. Saturn opposite all those planets is a clue for me that you came in with an inheritance around discipline. And you had to have a hard time at the beginning of a life. Saturn is old when they're young, serious, miserable, can take things difficult, addictive.

[00:35:56] Whatever the dilemma is will show up. That's why I said to you earlier, you're done with the expectation that you'd ever not let the governor give you directions at this age. You aged well, and now you're trustworthy.

[00:36:08] Luke: It's true. Long, hard road to get there.

[00:36:11] Debra: So for all of you who had a bad childhood to begin with, you can learn from it, take the lessons, change your style, and then be a really good parent because you got the teachings.

[00:36:23] Luke: I don't want to make this too self-centric, but I've always been curious as to why I have a very loose relationship with time. Like if I tell you I'm going to be somewhere, I'll be there. I'm not late, and things like that.

[00:36:38] Debra: Totally obvious.

[00:36:40] Luke: But I never have a clue what the date is, what time it is. There's no difference between five minutes and five hours in my inner experience. And honestly, it makes it difficult to operate in the world that's running on calendars and clocks. It's like a foreign language to me.

[00:37:00] Debra: Here we go. Here we go with different personality types.

[00:37:01] Luke: It's very difficult.

[00:37:04] Debra: First of all, you do do it when required and your wife tells you to, you're on.

[00:37:08] Luke: It requires a lot of that discipline to wrestle myself into that system.

[00:37:13] Debra: So I'll tell you why. You have four planets in the 12th house. The 12th house is the very last sign of the Zodiac, and it's where the mystic lives. At the end of incarnation, when you spend enough lifetimes here, at some point it's happening to a lot of people watching this.

[00:37:26] You have a spiritual awakening, you realize it's a dream, you realize the dream is an illusion, you realize you can let go of everything, and then Buddha starts to sound cute. Oh, really? All suffering comes from attachment. You start letting go. You realize it doesn't really matter and, "Time is just an illusion," said Einstein.

[00:37:42] All that's true at that spiritual level that you go to when you dream. On the other plane of existence, there's no such thing as clocks and time and schedules and alarms and cell phones. There's this joke that when we get to the other side, St. Peter's going to be standing there with God and there's going to be this waiting room.

[00:38:04] And there's all these people standing there and then God turns to St. Peter and says, "Why are they all standing there like this?" Because they're so addicted to that thing. They can't get their hand to just relax on this plane. You live on a different plane, Luke. You have many planets in the house of the mystic, the magic, the dreamer, the other worlds. Why you wear those funny glasses.

[00:38:26] So it keeps you in a softer focus. So you're not caught by the hardship of this assaulting world. That's not true for me. I live in a very concrete-- and your wife, we live in concrete worlds where we have to water the plants, and take care of the clothes, and make sure we do the laundry, and make sure we're on time, and the kids have to get taken somewhere, and you've got to make sure that you turn the podcast on.

[00:38:45] That's different for you, and that's back to the original question you asked. I can't judge you. I want to sometimes when people are late, but I've learned to say, "Uh, uh, uh, Debra. This is Astrology 101. Everyone's different." And you are not bound. You're not supposed to be. You promised to come down here to marry, to blend those two worlds.

[00:39:05] That's why Saturn is opposite all the Scorpio. All that Scorpio in the house of the dreamer, the mystic, the sleepy time, the altered states, being in different worlds is opposite Saturn and Taurus going, "Excuse me, can you come back here?" You're like, "All right." But you do come back because you made a promise. So thanks for following through.

[00:39:26] Luke: In terms of our soul's influence on the circumstances of our birth and choosing the optimal karmic opportunities, it seems pretty clear to me just examining my own life and the lives of others that despite how problematic our families can be, that I feel like I chose mine and it was the perfect choice, regardless of how dysfunctional and alcoholic and all of the problems going back on both sides of my family. But I feel like I chose the perfect circumstances if what I wanted to do here is what I'm doing, which is evolving.

[00:40:17] Debra: How did your siblings do?

[00:40:18] Luke: I have two half-brothers and one is very much like me, went into a lot of darkness and has been a beautiful catalyst for his growth and evolution. And we're very much on the same path. And one has had objectively, despite having many of the same experiences, a much smoother-- he's just a balanced, normal guy.

[00:40:43] Debra: A Teflon. It just went through. I'm going to be politically incorrect. I don't like the word chose. I chose my family. If you would have met my family, I was either on drugs, or someone twisted my arm. I could lean towards, I was assigned based on my karmic agreement and the team that works with me in the council that this would be a perfect setting for me.

[00:41:08] It wasn't like, I'll pick her. Are you kidding? But what I do think was that was assigned to me, and I got a consent. Of course, there's free will at some dimension. And then once I came down, the free will's gone. Once you get down here, the dog you got, the kids, the brother, how your first love went, how your body-- that stuff is all written.

[00:41:28] There's all plans that are written. And it's not like you wrote them. This is where it gets silly for me. Having had a child, when people say you create your own reality, I was like, I am not creating a brain right now. Somebody's working through me, making this baby. I am not taking credit.

[00:41:42] So I got humbled-- humbled enough to know that I don't know. What I do know is, astrologically, I can look at the chart and tell you, there was no choice for you this life but to get through the dark to get to the light. That was exactly what you'd planned.

[00:41:57] Luke: So one perspective is kind of your family system and the lineage and all that. But then as it pertains to astrology, the second you come out is going to determine so much about your character and your proclivities and ultimately your destiny in this particular incarnation.

[00:42:19] So do you think that when we're in our disembodied soul form and maybe we've already-- there's debate about when we actually enter the embryo. Most people that I've resonated with say at about three months is when you land in there and then you're gestating and percolating. How much say do you think we have as a soul as to when we actually come out? Like if the baby's premature or late, do you think we're kind of aware of what's going on in the cosmos and we're like, "Right now?"

[00:42:54] Debra: I think it's very arrogant if I were to answer this. I cannot answer this, and I don't want to pretend like I know. What I do know, said the astrologer, is the time of birth is extremely important to your rising sign. It determines the definition of your soul. The rising sign, why it's called the rising sign or the ascendant, it's what we're moving into.

[00:43:15] So it's very significant and it's determined by the moment, and it can be as much as two hours off and still be the right rising sign. So there's some variation. But a better question is not how it happened. And is there a team of your soul working? I have an imagination, as you do, and I can make up all kinds of stories.

[00:43:32] I'm really a practical person. Part of the gift of me doing astrology is I speak English. There's a lot of astrologers out now. I'm very delighted to know that it's returned to the zeitgeist. But there's so much jargon, and there's so much spiritual theories that I find fascinating and I can listen for days.

[00:43:49] And what I do know by my own experience is that I worked with the council. I had a direct experience where I was given directions and I clearly came in this lifetime with a very strong memory. To have found astrology so young, here's the secret, I never had a teacher. And I became a successful, famous, so to speak, the OG, whatever that means, the original gangster. I thought it was an old gangster when I first heard it.

[00:44:15] I was like, "Am I the old gangster? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?" Especially because my dad was in the Jewish Mafia. So I was like, "Oh, the apple didn't fall far from the tree and now they're calling me an old gangster." And I came in with a memory very young and recapitulated, I love that word, where I remembered--

[00:44:32] And I once again was listening enough to my own heart that I was so interested in astrology from so young that I can tell you now in 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th grade, all the kids I grew up with, where their sun and their moon was, to this minute. Just like you have a fascination with longevity and knowing how to use the body and helping people.

[00:44:51] You're obsessed. That's true. That's what happens to Scorpios. They get obsessed. I too am obsessed with helping this planet make the transition from the era that we're in right now, which is clearly the most intense. We have never had 8 billion people here. Think about that for a minute. Consuming, pooping, using plastic, making love, getting pissed off, driving cars, flying on airplanes, and it's not stopping.

[00:45:22] So clearly, we're in a new era where the numbers are describing themselves and my job and your job is to be able to, one-- I always tell everybody this. First things first, which you've done an excellent job in this space, create sacred space and regulate your nervous system. Know how to come home and take a deep breath. Should we do it?

[00:45:45] And change the energy in the room every time you consciously take a deep breath and become the agent of changing energy in the room. Number one. Number two, start watching your mind, the little culprit, the mean little thing. Says shit about you when you're not looking, mean shit. Talks behind your back. You don't get that guy in a seat? Good luck.

[00:46:09] So I spent a lot of time with astrology, helping people put wind decks on their left brain. Because astrology, you learn a technology, simple, but so interesting about human nature, with compassion drenched in it. How do I understand someone with this much Scorpio in the 12th?

[00:46:25] I'm not going to bug you in the morning. You stupid? I can just look at this chart and say, this guy needs quiet. You wonder why you don't have a lot of people in your home? You thrive on stillness. Once you know that, you can give someone permission to not be "normal," which is a setting on the dryer.

[00:46:44] What is normal? There's nothing normal about eight billion people on a planet all trying to figure out what they're doing here and no one knowing. And then eventually we get to a point where we're like, "Hey, my observer's on." This is what I teach. I'm aware that I'm in a body. I suddenly become conscious of my chart and my function, my ability to respect this temple.

[00:47:07] And then this place gets easy. Surprise. And then the older you get, the more grace. And then it becomes really fun. Who knew I could be this old and have this much energy and get so excited to be talking in Luke Storey? I don't even know. It's all about the innocence and the humility to say that we don't really understand.

[00:47:30] I study, like you, especially about planets. I have it everywhere. I'm constantly interested. It's just a joke. Because I can't retain it, and I can't explain it, but I can promise you we're on earth. That's what I've been told. Is it true? Except when I go to bed.

[00:47:43] Luke: So they say, yeah.

[00:47:45] Debra: Exactly. And then I have these visions and then every once in a while, I do sacred medicine and every once in a while I have a meditation where I get a voice. I'm like, "Are we good? Is this earth? Just tell me again. What day is it? Ooh." So we all live in this very transient pretense. The gift that I have this life is the humor. Like, it's a joke. Shh. And it gives comfort to know that everyone's slightly fucked up. It's okay.

[00:48:12] And that no one really understands, and that the more you take care of this temple, which I'm so impressed with you and your wife, really respecting this place, drinking the water properly, eating properly, exercising, having orgasms, listening to music, smelling, tasting, watching babies, letting the dog lick your leg.

[00:48:36] Do you know how many angels are trying to get in here right now? And by the way, it can't continue. We're at a threshold. We are at a turning point. So enjoy yourself. I always said 2024 was the end of ease.

[00:48:51] Luke: Really?

[00:49:51] Debra: Yes. We're peaking right now. La la la la la. Everybody, blblblblblblblblbl.

[00:49:00] Luke: I drift back and forth with my perspective of the world and always with the anchor that I know nothing. It's like, I don't know what the future holds, but from one lens, I would look at just geopolitically, culturally, just where we are as a human family, that it is the end of the world and we're just about to implode, and it's the darkest time ever.

[00:49:27] Debra: Scorpio.

[00:49:28] Luke: The more wise side of me, though, knows, ah, well, I'm only able to see where we are from my very limited perspective right here at this slice in what we call time. And the only thing I have to rely on are my senses. So can I really trust that?

[00:49:42] So maybe, as in my own life in the darkest of times when I felt suicidal and homicidal and was just such a train wreck, I had no idea at that time that on the other side of that was a spiritual awakening and a relationship with God and a life full of love and empathy and compassion and a beautiful wife and I would have never imagined that.

[00:50:04] So I try as best I can to see that vision for humanity that we're going through this sort of the world is like about to get thrown into rehab. It's like they're super fucked up and there's an intervention that's ensuing and it's pretty dark. But on the other side of that, hopefully enough of us will pull through to grab the people in the back that got left behind.

[00:50:25] Debra: Which is it, Luke?

[00:50:26] Luke: I like to believe it's that, but what I'm asking is, from an astrological point of view, for example, do you see us as having a rebirth, or is this like the doomsday that we have been fearing?

[00:50:40] Debra: That's so interesting.

[00:50:41] Luke: Or is it both?

[00:50:42] Debra: Astrologically, we are at a turning point. Pluto enters Aquarius, Neptune enters Aries, Uranus enters Gemini. This is very technical. I hate talking astrology for people. But the short answer is, all the outer planets are going into fire and air. So to your point, this is an analogy I do.

[00:51:01] If I had never seen a woman give birth before, in a lifetime, and suddenly I'm in a room or I'm watching a film and she's pregnant and she's throwing up and she looks like she's having a problem and this thing starts growing on her and now we get to the end of the movie and now she's screaming, I've never seen it before.

[00:51:20] And we're all in the room together and I'm like, "This does not sound, look, feel right." And there's some wisdom keepers in the room that go, "Excuse me, sit down. How dare you turn judgmental on a cycle that you don't understand, that you've never seen? Have you no faith?" "Oh, sorry."

[00:51:40] "Okay, everybody sit down." And then all of a sudden she starts to really scream and yell. Some weird shit's going on now. And there's this thing coming out of her. It does not look right. "Sit down. Keep breathing. She's got this." And then out comes this little teeny thing you never would have expected with little teeny eyelashes and a little-- wait till you see that baby tonight. Perfect.

[00:52:03] Now, all the way through, tell the truth, everybody was worried. That's exactly where we're at. I am not smart enough to know how this is going to go. I know I'm an astrologer for many years, almost 50. But what I can tell you is trust. Because you know it's for sure the sun's coming up. The moon's moving in increments. Saturn's exactly where it should be. There's a council watching you. There's an entertaining factor for the cosmic joke. There's people like Jesus watching. You don't think for one minute this place is not being watched?

[00:52:44] So I can't answer. I don't have the brain power. I used to think I was smart, then I thought I was dumb, and now I'm in the middle. I'm a little smart because I'm innocent, and I have an innocent quality about-- my Mercury is in Taurus, so I'm a little slow. And on the other hand, I'm a really good astrologer because I've learned human nature. I have stared at people. I have studied.

[00:53:04] I had a whole crew of prostitutes at one cycle where I got to work with people that were professional prostitutes and I fell in love. It makes me think of it because of your chart. They had a chart similar to you. I'll tell you more. I've worked with chronic mental patients in back wards of hospitals that had no hope for coming out. And I began to understand what was God thinking when they made that.

[00:53:24] So I've gone through deep entrances into the human, which you would love to hear about. And the short answer is we are them. Secretly, we're all-- I say the soul is a prostitute, better known as the soul's a slut. The soul will do anything to learn. Addiction, being depressed, thinking about suicide, that's the soul in full commitment. Divorce, financial ruin, getting sick.

[00:53:54] The soul's like, "We got a hot one now. This person's really desperate. They are on their knees. I heard them pray for the first time." What happens when you have alcoholism and you go to the 12-step program. The very first step is, ooh, I'm out of control. "Good," they say. They're so excited. First step. Yay.

[00:54:15] Second step, I believe in God. I believe in God. I do. I do. I do. Okay, now we got you. So I don't know if this destruction or this dismantling or the transformation of the human condition is a bad thing or a good thing, but I do know it's happening. That's not debatable. We are extinct. We are getting done. We must not continue by having people that can't eat down the street. I can't live like that. Breaks my heart.

[00:54:44] Luke: I like that analogy. That's how I view things on a good day, is just in the not knowing and just leaning into the side of hope that all things happen for good. And to the point of the guides, the angels, the benevolent beings watching--

[00:54:58] Debra: Look where you live. Look at the space you live in.

[00:55:01] Luke: I can't help but think the creator that created all of consciousness and everything in it, physical and non-physical, just created it and then bounced. You know what I mean? There's a lot of work to create this reality to just be like, and good luck, guys. That's kind of what keeps me in the game.

[00:55:22] Debra: That is so funny. That's the humor that allows us to take this place lightly. That's why angels can fly, because they take things lightly. And that's one of the gifts that I've been given as a Gemini, as double air, Libra rising. I have a huge emotional component as you do. It's not hard for me to get sad, and I can tickle myself when no one's looking.

[00:55:48] Luke: Have you ever had any awareness of past lives for yourself? What have those shown you?

[00:55:57] Debra: Such a good question. It's so interesting, the podcasters who are the real thing. Because I've done podcasts throughout my first book, The Missing Element, and at the end I wanted to kill them. Is that bad to say?

[00:56:08] Luke: Well, we won't name them.

[00:56:09] Debra: No. I was like, I can't even believe they're asking me the same stupid question, when I found astrology. I'm going to hurt someone. It got me so upset. So I'm in a new version, and you've really assisted. Many people here in Austin have really assisted to let the conversation go deeper and more real than just the typical questions. So thank you. Thank you for doing the work you're doing to activate a new version of how to really be authentic in a conversation. It matters to me.

[00:56:33] Luke: Thank you.

[00:56:34] Debra: Past lives. I've never really talked about this before.

[00:56:38] Luke: Perfect. I love it when say that.

[00:56:39] Debra: They probably tell you that a lot.

[00:56:41] Luke: Well, I like to get the exclusive.

[00:56:43] Debra: Right. You sneak into people. That's a typical Scorpio. I have had past life memories since I was young that gave me familiarity. Once again, because I had an innocence, I had a very, very difficult childhood, and I think it served me, to your point, about your soul choosing your childhood, because I didn't have the conditions that I should have had.

[00:57:05] So I didn't know that when I went horseback riding, and I had this past life memory, that it was a past life memory. But as years have gone by, my whole house became completely native, all kinds of Indian paraphernalia, and I realized that I had decorated it with a memory that I didn't consciously realize.

[00:57:25] I thought back to that memory and thought, oh, that was a time travel moment. And when I was in the sweat lodges, and I taught at Esalen for many years, and I was in a sweat lodge and I was like, this feels more comfortable than being in my bed in the morning, I couldn't believe it.

00:57:43] And I was working with people energetically and I was this old native American woman who knew how to chant and knew how to hold people in their pain. That happened too many times. I just got the willies.

[00:57:55] So there are guides that follow me. I don't like to talk about it. I tend to be skeptical, back to my original point. If I'm not real, if I'm full of shit, please tell me. If I'm inauthentic, stop me. So I've kept it internal, but it's informed my existence, my past. That's one. Then I had a series. I've had a long series of being a Buddhist, and that became very loud when I started hearing Dalai Lama chant.

[00:58:25] Luke: I asked the question because I find it interesting when someone finds their dharmic path early on, like you did, and sticks to it. It wasn't a phase. You could call each incarnation a short blink of an eye phase.

[00:58:42] Debra: That's so interesting.

[00:58:43] Luke: Really? So maybe it's a phase in the multitude of lifetimes. But clearly it hasn't been a phase in this one.

[00:58:51] Debra: No, this has not been a phase.

[00:58:52] Luke: Yeah. So I wonder. I go, "Oh, I wonder what informed finding that thing and just locking on it.

[00:59:00] Debra: It's back to recapitulation, and many people listening to this have this problem. They don't know why they're here. They don't know what they're supposed to be doing. They feel like they're in the wrong job. They never really found their niche. They never really found their calling. This is what astrology is for, why we have our school.

[00:59:14] They can't figure out who they are really. They feel like they faked it and they did the people pleasing thing for way too long. In their families they're bound because of obligation and they don't know how to change that because they don't want to be alone and so they stay in marriages or relationships because they're scared to be alone.

[00:59:31] It's a universal epidemic. It didn't happen for me. When I first saw the word astrology, I was 10 in the Detroit comic section of the Detroit News. I saw that word. I remember. Obviously, recapitulation, it's what happens to people like the little kids that play piano.

[00:59:54] Luke: Yeah. I love that. I talk about that all the time. You see a three year old playing Beethoven, you're like, "Okay, they've been here before, clearly."

[01:00:01] Debra: Right. And why does that occur? Because to your point, when you follow through things-- another epidemic on our planet, people can't stick to things. Our attention span because of social media has gone out of the-- scares me. I watch it in myself.

[01:00:17] To be able to sustain commitment and discipline, which you have-- you may not think you're good at it because you have this tendency to go off planet into the magical realm of the 12th house with the end of the zodiac where we go into the memories of the past lives. But back at the ranch, your life lesson was Saturn and Taurus. You said, "I'll stay here as long as you give me Alyson and give me a nice house." They said, "Okay."

[01:00:39] Luke: It's a pretty good deal.

[01:00:40] Debra: I know. You got a good deal.

[01:00:41] Luke: I did. I know there are obviously many levels of expertise and understanding of something like astrology. It's so vast, as you said. It's based on hard math and science, yet there's such an intuitive spiritual side to it. Something I've observed that I'd like to get your perspective on is, I don't know, it's almost like a form of spiritual bypassing using astrology as the scapegoat.

[01:01:17] Like somebody's super fucked up and they're like, "Oh, it must be because Mercury's in record rate or whatever." Blaming anything and everything rather than just boots on the ground. All right, I need to work on myself. But the reason I'm a wreck is because of the planets.

[01:01:31] And that's not to discount obviously that the planets have an influence on our moods and our sleep and women's cycles. Obviously, it is impactful, so I don't discount that, but I have observed patterns in people just as an observer that I am, not even in a judgmental way. Just, oh, I wonder if this is what they're doing.

[01:01:52] Debra: Bypassing. But we can start with that special sacred medicine people take as drugs. They don't call drugs anymore because that was when I was young. Sacred medicine. You could talk about it with social media bypassing. You can talk about it in psychology and talking about narcissists and bypassing responsibility that we are all narcissist.

[01:02:09] Everyone comes to an astrologer and they say, "Who? Who?" My little tattoo, I just got it. "Who? Who? Who am I?" We're all narcissists, so we should be. And there's a diagnosis that goes with it, said the clinical psychologist. Yes, and I respect that. And we name that, but those words have become bypassing tools, jargon, they lose their authenticity. We aren't real with each other. We don't know how to do the most important thing of all, taking full responsibility.

[01:02:37] So astrology becomes a great way to be distracted or the tarot cards or the divination cards or the chakras or the sound bells or the tones. And that's all holy land. I am saying both are true, holy. But when it becomes a jargon or tool that we use to entertain ourselves because we got nothing else to do-- I finished by saying one of my past lives was Buddhism.

[01:03:00] And I know that one of the highest roads that I have learned, and this is going to sound funny, is that I'm boring. And that when I learned that I was boring, that I had this quiet spot in my psyche that didn't have a lot to say, and was kind of lonely, and didn't really have much going on, and I could not pick up my phone, that was the entrance to me being a really good listener. Because that's what Buddhism teaches.

[01:03:24] Sit still and listen. Take some deep breaths. Slow it down. That was Taurus. Buddha was a Taurus. He was born under the full moon in Scorpio. So his whole conversation was-- that's why it's so funny. It keeps coming up, was Taurus Scorpio, was if I could learn fulfillment in simplicity of the smells of the flowers, of the sun coming up, of the color of your glasses, of the beauty that-- if I could just totally relish the simplicity of beauty that brought to us by nature and simplicity, combined with the depth, that was Taurus, of Scorpio, where I could penetrate the mystery, where I could figure out the dream time, where I could understand past lives, all these fascinating topics that we just go, we're so excited. I'm so excited. And put them in balance so I can turn on my-- this is my new book.

[01:04:15] Go in the middle of that, turn on the observer and go, "Wow, I am so distracted. I am so bypassing. I'm so full of shit. I'm so emotionally immature. I'm so needy. I'm such a pleaser. I'm so scared. I live with so much fear." Those honesties, this is what my book is about, this new book that's just coming out in April.

[01:04:36] Luke: What did the approved name end up being?

[01:04:39] Debra: Approved name is I Don't Believe in Astrology.

[01:04:41] Luke: Oh, cool. Perfect. Perfect.

[01:04:46] Debra: Yeah.

[01:04:46] Luke: The other one was You're Fucked Up and I Love You Anyway. Both are great. I can see why publishers would have leaned into the second one.

[01:04:54] Debra: And it isn't about astrology for those of-- because a lot of people don't like listening. You've never had an astrologer. How many of you have listened to astrology but understood it? Not many. That's what my school is. What I love about it is it's-- you'll love this about this school. I'd love for you to do it.

[01:05:10] It's personal transformation. Oh, I have five planets in the 12th house. You don't know what that means. But there's Scorpio rising. You have five planets in Scorpio. And to learn that, it's one thing for me to tell you. It's a one thing for me to teach you with the fishing pole. Now, here's how you go fishing. That's what you're going to look for. And then you're going to journal and write.

[01:05:28] We give you all these ways of internalizing and intersecting psychology with astrology and then putting it in your body. Because that's the problem. Bypassing is a really good word at this time. I just find it funny that-- I don't know if it's funny, but I don't know why I find it funny. Human condition is really full of shit.

[01:05:48] The fact that I walked in and we're talking about how to clean out my liver, that was funny, but that is what's needed right now. How do I keep the system clean enough that I can be a vessel so that my mind and my desperation for wanting to be normal or wanting to be loved or being safe, how can I get that thing quiet so I can live in a state of peace?

[01:06:11] And there's not many of us doing it. I'm a little afraid because I think this book is going to do really well, and I'm old-- not old. I'm older and learning how to balance the fulfillment for me of collecting this wisdom and feeling like an authority, and the only reason why-- and you know this, Luke. This will happen to you as you get older, is because you know how to listen.

[01:06:34] I'm going to return to that. But it means listening to what? That's such a great question. What are you listening to? Listening to my body as a respectful tool to navigate through this world with really kindness and deliciousness. And then listening to you because I'm in love with you. I'm in love with you. Like little baby. Wait to be that little baby.

[01:07:00] I couldn't believe it. I started to cry immediately. We just have a very awkward time as a human condition. This is the first part of my book. The human condition is not built for simplicity, and that is the doorway to wisdom. Sorry.

[01:07:17] Luke: It's quite a paradox. Well, we're strapped with this prefrontal cortex that's so addicted to complexity. And then we have this--

[01:07:28] Debra: We're strapped to a prefrontal--

[01:07:31] Luke: It's strapped to us. Yet at the same time, we have this heart chakra and our intuition and our higher self is on board somewhere back here. There's a real tug of war, I think, for most of us, right?

[01:07:47] Debra: This is esoteric law.

[01:07:49] Luke: Learning how to live in an animal body with animal needs and instincts. And then you have this psychological conjoined twin of the ego. This is the way I see it in my model now. And the ego's job is to give you a sense of identity and separation from other things so there can be you.

[01:08:08] It reinforces the duality. And left unchecked, you become a smart ape that just takes shit that's not yours and selfish and abusive. And so it's like we have so many of these different energies going on within us at once. We are really so complex, but to your point, the way through all that is presence and awareness in the simplicity.

[01:08:31] Debra: And I'm going to challenge you to speak in first person. If you stop doing "we" and stop talking about the humans as a distant being and them and just stay in first person, you won't believe it.

[01:08:44] Luke: It's funny. I do that intentionally because I feel like--

[01:08:49] Debra: A unique version because you are.

[01:08:51] Luke: Well, no. It's like, I don't want to talk about myself. You know what I mean?

[01:08:56] Debra: It's okay. That's so Scorpio. They don't have an ego. They're destroying their ego in the quest of their soul. But you are such a profound teacher. That's why this audience loves your work. Because you are so willing to take on the human condition. So don't be self-conscious about using it in first person.

[01:09:12] Although I see you as a teacher, you'll find yourself more and more available in the name of your experiential wisdom. That happened to me as I got older. You don't have to take my word, but I can say--

[01:09:24] Luke: I appreciate that.

[01:09:25] Debra: I spent a lot of time, because I was so self-conscious. I never wanted to talk about me. I didn't want to tell them about my past lives. I didn't want to bother people with Debra Silverman. She was bugging me enough. Woke up every morning with her. Can't get rid of her. So I thought, well, maybe I'll just leave her out. But that didn't serve me in the end.

[01:09:51] When I went to graduate school and learned about therapy as a therapist, they told me never, ever to talk about myself, never, ever to include my story, never, ever cry during a session, to stay distant. And I did that for a long time.

[01:09:54] And one day I realized I am so full of shit. If I'm not engaging with my client one on one and taking on their pain and doing an exchange with the ultimate goal of bringing them to peace or to healing, but that was a real practice. And then I had to learn how to moderate my own nervous system and take care of my own boundaries, which is why you like being alone in here, just giving you a heads up. You live so far off. Took me a while to get here.

[01:10:18] Luke: Yeah.

[01:10:19] Debra: But that's 12th house.

[01:10:21] Luke: I don't think it's far enough now that we're here.

[01:10:23] Debra: My point. And it's permission to do that. You're protecting yourself and then you're going to share yourself because you've maintained a sacred space for yourself. And there's privacies that we'll never know about. And I have secrets that are private to me.

[01:10:36] And I'm so thankful to be able to share with my audience the humanness that I am as an example, particularly as an elder, that it's okay to be fucked up, to admit to the humanness. It's okay to talk about myself as a human, not separate from the human condition, that I'm like a homeless person. I don't know who I am or how I got here or where I fit.

[01:10:59] And then when I go home and I find my home-- you can't believe how thankful I live, with so much gratitude. I never knew that my lifetime, my childhood, was so deprived. I never imagined I'd have this.

[01:11:12] Luke: What was your childhood like? Your dad was a gangster?

[01:11:16] Debra: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:17] Luke: Where were you? In Detroit?

[01:11:19] Debra: Very, very scary. I don't want to do the story, even though I just told you to talk in first person. But the short answer is it was very scary. I felt a very emotional disruption my entire childhood. I had an ulcer my whole childhood.

[01:11:31] Luke: Oh, wow.

[01:11:31] Debra: I could never take a deep breath. I was scared. I think a lot of people, that's anxiety.

[01:11:41] Luke: There was a hyper vigilance around your--

[01:11:44] Debra: Protective safety. It didn't exist. And I gave that to myself now. And you can feel it. I can feel it in you. And that requires sacred space, which is what you made. And high value for your love.

[01:12:00] Luke: Yeah.

[01:12:01] Debra: That's what you're role modeling for us, so that's why it's okay to speak in first person. We're learning from Luke, aren't we? Everybody watching this.

[01:12:07] Luke: I think because I do that intentionally. I have some awareness. There's enough witness in the room on a good day that there's someone watching Luke do the Luke show.

[01:12:21] Debra: That's so good. There's somebody watching the Luke show.

[01:12:21] Luke: I try to stay tapped into that. And I don't devalue the persona, my persona. It's unique and beautiful.

[01:12:28] Debra: It's funny. That was funny.

[01:12:30] Luke: Thank you.

[01:12:32] Debra: Think about the guy watching you.

[01:12:33] Luke: The persona is funny, but I do try to keep one toe in the pool of a higher awareness, because I want to monitor things. And one of the things I monitor is talking about myself too much.

[01:12:44] Debra: Good for you. I don't think you'll ever have a problem with that.

[01:12:47] Luke: But it's good to hear your perspective on that.

[01:12:50] Debra: I think it's very empowering to speak out of first person as much as possible. Just one Debra Silverman-ism.

[01:12:59] Luke: So you've got this book sitting here, The Missing Element, and then you've completed your other one. I'm writing my first book at the moment and the overall theme of the book is loneliness. And so I'm becoming very interested in exploring this topic more deeply. Yeah.

[01:13:17] Debra: That's so in your chart.

[01:13:18] Luke: Really?

[01:13:19] Debra: Yeah, because you live in the dark.

[01:13:21] Luke: Hmm.

[01:13:22] Debra: You have four planets and the 12th house is the isolator. Listen, the 12th house-- ready? ruled mental hospitals, prisons, being isolated and ostracized. That's the 12th house. Banished.

[01:13:37] Luke: Damn.

[01:13:37] Debra: Because they were so different, the 12th house people, at the end of incarnation-- 12th house being the end, there's only 12 houses. At the end of incarnation, people are like, "Oh my God, this place is crazy pants. I'm going off by myself, but if I'm lonely, this is very scary and sad. On the other hand, I can't really be around the people because they don't get me. So now I'm really confused." It's two fish going in opposite directions. I want to be connected, but I can't.

[01:14:02] How many of you relate to that? It's a universal song. And it lends itself to universal loneliness because what loneliness is, I don't have a human connection except with the dog. They love animals. Except with the dog, with animals, with being outside because I can't feel the human bondage. Bondage, bonding. That's interesting.

[01:14:21] I can't distinguish the bondage from the bonding. So I don't want to be bound by them telling me what to do. I'm in a 12th house. Don't wake me up. Don't start talking to me. Don't disrespect my sacred space. How dare you? Until you realize, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. The high road of loneliness is-- I always say during COVID I learned loneliness because I had no one.

[01:14:42] My kids couldn't come for Thanksgiving for, I was living in Hawaii for Christmas. I was alone for, I don't even know. I think it was like six or nine months. It was really long. And I bumped into loneliness, severe. And then I say I made it into Insight avenue. I was like, okay, we're going to live on Insight avenue. We're taking this and just going to squeeze it for some wisdom.

[01:15:04] And then I got through the loneliness and that was liberating and very enlightening and happy. And then I couldn't wait. This sounds bad. Then I was like, I'm going to Hawaii, and I spent the winters in Hawaii, and I spent part of the time with my house empty.

[01:15:22] Luke: Sounds amazing.

[01:15:26] Debra: Exactly. That took me years.

[01:15:26] Luke: One of the ideas I've been just toying with as I explore that topic, and it took me decades to even discover that there was an existential loneliness throughout my entire life, but it's interesting as I look into it, because what I've found for me, I'll talk about me, first person.

[01:15:49] Debra: Yes, please. I'm so interested.

[01:15:51] Luke: Is that loneliness is not exclusively dependent on the presence of other people. It's an internal experience. It's so subjective and contextual that I could spend a day alone in the wilderness or many days alone in the wilderness and feel completely connected and fulfilled despite the lack of proximity of people. Yet, there still comes a time when it's like, wow, I really need to connect with someone. And so it's an interesting learning process of finding the balance of that.

[01:16:26] Debra: I can't wait to read the book.

[01:16:28] Luke: Thank you. I can't wait to finish it.

[01:16:31] Debra: It's a long part, writing a book.

[01:16:32] Luke: It's intense. Yeah. It's intense. Especially, well, you see my chart. I could write 10 fluffy books and bang them out once a month, but I'm just not interested in writing a fluffy book. The Ten Ways to Have a Great Life. I can't do it. I tried--

[01:16:50] Debra: There's nothing fluffy about you, Luke. You want to write that down? Double Scorpio with work planets.

[01:16:56] Luke: I tried to start writing a book that was going to be, I think, what I thought, oh, more accessible and just basic, and yeah, I just couldn't do it. So I had to go deep.

[01:17:04] Debra: Five planets in Scorpio. Yeah, there's nothing fluffy. Permission to be intense.

[01:17:09] Luke: Go hardcore.

[01:17:11] Debra: And we're talking about you today in astrology. All of you have personality types. I am also a very intense character, as you can see, and I am ruthless in my quest to find truth. I'm not someone that will sit idle and wait for someone to inspire me.

[01:17:29] I'm like, dun dun dun dun. I'm getting up and I'm reading now. Some people are like that. They wake up in the morning, dun dun. And some people, that's not true and there's no judgments. Some people are exhausted. They've had so many lifetimes, they're like, "I read the books, I read all the books." Tired.

[01:17:47] And that's where your work-- this is really important. The distinction of the body being the vessel and the vehicle to run current through it, to maintain and sustain energy, is why we take care of our bodies. It is not selfish. It is not for pride or for the way it looks. It's the continuation of this vehicle, my body being the temple that allows spirit to move through me.

[01:18:12] So all the work you're doing, I'm so impressed. And I'm so happy because I loved your question, which I never answered. What started me off the health path, but secretly I think it's because I'm an energy junkie. I'm like, "I want clean energy." And I can tell when it's not clean and it's up to me to create the vessel.

[01:18:31] And I'm committed. Many people think about it, talk about it, read all the books about it, and then when it comes to the French fries, which I do, I let myself indulge. I figured that out. There'll be no severity. I think you're much more--

[01:18:45] Luke: I just crushed a whole pint of ice cream last night. It was the best thing ever. With very little guilt, a little bit, not too much.

[01:18:53] Debra: I love that story. I had macaroni and cheese last night, which is why I'm feeling the phlegm. And I did it with delight, but I didn't really think about the podcast, tell the truth.

[01:19:03] Luke: Oh, macaroni and cheese, you're speaking my language.

[01:19:05] Debra: It was done with this woman that was cooking was with so much love, and I was so honored. How do you not? So back to take care of the body. Deep respect, total obedience. I am a worshipper. That's why I'm so excited about your work. I couldn't wait to see you because I was like, you can help me with my digestive tract. That's one of the things I know is a single interrupting-- I'm in love with Zach Bush's work. We are working together.

[01:19:30] Luke: Great guy.

[01:19:31] Debra: I saw he was on your podcast.

[01:19:32] Luke: Yeah, he's been on a few times. Interesting thing about Zach Bush, which I shared with him, and of course he accepted humbly--

[01:19:38] Debra: Scorpio.

[01:19:39] Luke: Oh, is he? Oh, interesting. A very deep guy. That would explain that. But I've had some pretty noteworthy, in this world of wellness and spirituality, pretty famous people, much more so than Dr. Zach Bush. I'm up to 560 episodes or something. He is my number one and number two most downloaded episodes, two different episodes he did. It's crazy.

[01:20:08] Debra: I'll tell you why. He's Aquarius rising. With Jupiter in Aquarius in the 12th house, he is a direct channel. He has Neptune on the Midheaven. He is a direct access. When his mouth opens and those words come through, his system is clean. I'm with you. Zach Bush takes my breath away.

[01:20:29] Luke: Yeah. It's interesting. And I shared that with him and he had such a beautiful and humble answer. And of course, he didn't take credit for it, and he wasn't also being falsely humble. He just said, "No, that just speaks to the demographic of people that listen to this show." It's like, this is just what they want to hear because of who they are, not because--

[01:20:50] Debra: So beautiful. He's so right. There's only one of us here. But he's right and he's wrong because his astrological chart is built. And that's same with you. That 12th house, he's a channel, you're a channel. There are beings that come in incarnate. And I can look at a chart, I can sit next to someone and say-- that's when I had dinner with you guys.

[01:21:06] I was like, "Oh, I really like them." And I've only done that over years because I was like you. I had a bad case of the pleaser. Took me years to discern my faculties to actually read the energy. Some people, you know who you are, great at it. I have people on my team where I say, I don't know, I don't trust me quite the way I trust those people that have lie detector machines.

[01:21:26] Luke: Yeah. Alyson's like that. It's crazy. It took me a while to get used to it. At first, I found it to be a bit harsh. It was just like, God, man, give these people a break. It's like we're all doing the best we can. And she's like, "Fuck no, not that one." And it's not even mean. It's actually just self-preservation.

[01:21:49] Debra: It's so necessary in this next era. So let's go back to your question.

[01:21:53] Luke: A very strong discernment.

[01:21:54] Debra: How are we doing on time? Remember I told what time.

[01:21:55] Luke: We're golden. I'm totally good.

[01:21:58] Debra: Are we all good? We're all good. Check it out. I'm time sensitive because I see people's attentions during the social media world, and I'm really respectful of making sure people are getting what they need.

[01:22:09] Luke: That's what many clips are for. We'll make a bunch of clips out of this long conversation that will be for the ADD brands. But I go forever as long. Before we started, you just said, "How long?" I said, "As long as the energy's there."

[01:22:21] Debra: That's the 12th house.

[01:22:22] Luke: To me the energy's there, so let's go.

[01:22:24] Debra: Okay. Tell me what I was saying because I lost--

[01:22:25] Luke: It was good too. I was talking about discernment.

[01:22:30] Debra: This is very important for this age. Yes, thank you. We are at this really critical moment where the planet's going to be overdosed in confusion. So the ability for us to discern and authentically embody our own measuring sticks, our own True North, our own gauge of knowing what your wife knows instinctively is going to be very important as we move through this.

[01:22:53] Because what we've done up till now, the Pluto was in Capricorn for-- it's been 240 years since Pluto entered Aquarius, which is in November, 2025. And the transition is the old era was we gave our energy over to authorities, to Capricorn, to government, to people that knew, doctors and lawyers and government officials and people that were know it alls. It's changing, changing.

[01:23:16] So it lends itself to confusion because now we're like, "Oh-oh, I thought I knew who I could trust. They were telling me what the right answers were. I was leaning into all these people that gave me instructions, and they're not true." Good news. If your discernment faculties, your ability to listen to your own instinct and clean your system enough to be clean like an arrow, like a shiny, able, responsive machine-- I didn't have that skill.

[01:23:43] I'm still designing it. I see it more in you than I really see it in Alyson. Some people have a lie detector test, and you know who you are. Some people don't. And the name of the future, be aware that you don't. Lean in on those seers, the ones that know. And then trust your instinct to say to yourself, I'm full of shit.

[01:24:02] I'm really off my path right now. I'm working this job, and it doesn't feel true, but I might be the right answer. That's the really crazy part. In this transition, you're going to have to be able to stick to what's boring, what's frustrating, what's making you angry, the relationship that's dated, and work it through-- I feel so bad. I keep hitting this guy.

[01:24:21] Luke: You're fine

[01:24:22] Debra: And work it through just like I just did. Make a mistake, get it wrong, apologize, step back up, listen to Luke, listen to the podcast, do your homework, study what you need to study, stay the course. Don't get discouraged in this next era as the confusion is completely saturating the human psyche. It's happening in our elections, not just in America. It's happening all over the world.

[01:24:45] And then we have to discern whose voice are we listening to? What is our truth? It was what you brought up. And how do I trust this temple I live in? Oh, I know. I take such good care of it with the water, with the food, with my exercise, with my breathing, with my walking slowly. One of my big takeaways in this life, but I live in Hawaii half the year, is walk slowly. Why are we in a rush?

[01:25:11] Luke: And drive slowly.

[01:25:13] Debra: Now I'm not good at that.

[01:25:15] Luke: I'm from LA. I thought I was a pretty crazy driver. You'd think in California traffic, bad drivers have. I don't know if you've noticed this in Texas. People drive like fucking psychos here. And it's a pretty boring place. You know what I mean?

[01:25:33] Debra: This is a clip. This is a clip.

[01:25:35] Luke: I mean, I love it.

[01:25:35] Debra: People drive like-- what did you say?

[01:25:37] Luke: They're maniacal. They're fucking nuts. I swear. It's palpable.

[01:25:42] Debra: It's their energetic body [Inaudible].

[01:25:44] Luke: But I'm like, "Where are you guys going? We are in Texas." You could drive for 14 hours. You're not going to see a mountain or a state line. What is the hurry? It's so weird.

[01:25:54] Debra: The more interesting question is, what's the energy behind that wheel? Why are people so jacked up? Oh, is it coffee? Oh, is it anger? Oh, is it listening to music that is going over and over again so loud, disrupting their nervous system?

[01:26:04] Luke: I know what it is.

[01:26:06] Debra: Is it not having orgasms?

[01:26:07] Luke: It's that they drive a pick-up truck.

[01:26:09] Debra: Okay, you're so wrong.

[01:26:10] Luke: I deduced it down to that.

[01:26:11] Debra: That was so the wrong answer.

[01:26:12] Luke: Because the most psycho drivers here--

[01:26:14] Debra: Mr. Scorpio, your Scorpio showing through.

[01:26:18] Luke: All right. More importantly, the reason I know that it's not just me that specifically pickup truck drivers here in Texas drive like maniacs, we went to Indiana over the summer. Relatively similar population as this area, and people drive like little old ladies. And I love it. I was like, "Oh my God, everyone just chill. You don't have to go 40 miles over the speed limit. Where are you going?"

[01:26:44] I think in Indiana, they've just realized, yeah, there's nowhere to go. Cornfields, soybean fields, where are we getting to? I'm like, you guys need to teach the Texans there's really nowhere to go. There's nowhere to get to where to get to.

[01:26:55] Debra: This is really funny.

[01:26:56] Luke: You can all just chill.

[01:26:57] Debra: The real point of this conversation is slowing down. This is your life lesson. This is where we're going to finish. Here's the really punchline. Saturn is the most important, that old man, the grumpy high school principal who's mean. You have it in Taurus. This is my new book. Whatever sign Saturn's in is my clue of what their life lesson was. What they signed up for this life to learn.

[01:27:20] It's really powerful information. Yours is in Taurus, the turtle. Your life lesson was, would you be willing to go slow-- I love your face. Would you be willing to go slow in everything? Eating, making love, walking, getting things done, permission to luxuriate. How does that register for you?

[01:27:39] Luke: Beautifully. And it's funny. If I'm honest with myself-- You know how the things other people do that irritate you are because they're your shadow shit? I used to drive worse than these people in Texas.

[01:27:54] Debra: Truth is being sounded.

[01:27:55] Luke: I could not go with the flow of traffic. I had to beat everyone. This is many years ago. It's embarrassing, but it's true. Driving in LA, if someone was a little speed demon, and I saw them in the rear view trying to pass me, I would cut them off and go faster. I wouldn't let anyone go past me. I was just so egoically dominated.

[01:28:15] So knowing what it's like to frantically try to get nowhere, I think I relate to on some level, and it pisses me off that they do that because I'm like, "I outgrew that. Why haven't you?"

[01:28:28] Debra: Thank you. Good catch.

[01:28:29] Luke: So there you go. But this is something I'm always working on, is just--

[01:28:34] Debra: It's your life lesson. Saturn and Taurus and pacing.

[01:28:37] Luke: Yeah, pacing in everything because I'm quite extreme. I'm just full fucking on with everything. So obsessive.

[01:28:42] Debra: It's called five planets in Scorpio. Good catch. So the opposite sign to Scorpio is Taurus, the turtle, who's so simple. Winnie the Pooh, sauntering. Five planets in Scorpio going, what are you talking about? And Saturn should win. Attention on permission to go slow. Eat slow. All of it. Life gets so much more delicious. I'm really learning it as I get older.

[01:29:04] Luke: Yeah. I like to think that I am too. I know you want to go soon, but there was something I wanted to ask you. Oh, God damn it.

[01:29:14] Debra: You'll think of it. You'll think of it.

[01:29:15] Luke: Oh, I want to know more about your courses. I find this really interesting the way you describe it, that one part of it is that you're gaining a greater understanding of yourself. But the other is the opportunity for people to identify that they might have a gift for this work, the work that you do.

[01:29:36] You've got all these people that were students have become trainers and things like that. And as skeptical as I have been at times at these education systems that are like coaches teaching coaches how to be coaches, how to be coaches. It's a lot of that in Austin. A little judgy, maybe a little jealous because I've never come up with my own coaching program, but yeah, tell people-- I think in my notes I have some links, lukestorey.com/appliedastrology.

[01:30:03] Debra: Oh, yeah. Your audience. Every September and January.

[01:30:06] Luke: And then lukestorey.com/immersion. So I have those and all the show notes, by the way, I'm supposed to say this at the beginning and I forgot, lukestorey.com/astrology. And we'll put notes to all of this.

[01:30:19] Debra: Your audience is definitely built for this job. Yes. So there's two different doors. One is the class, the beginning of January and September. And to your point, did you not believe until I sat here? Are you more of a believer as I sit here?

[01:30:33] Luke: 100%, 100%. Yeah. I was very intrigued when we met the first time at dinner, because things you were tapping into. I think you were telling Alyson some things and I was like, bingo, bingo. So yeah. And I think also, as I said, I've just become more interested in the nature of the earth realm and the cosmos.

[01:30:53] As if I couldn't be any more fascinated by what we're doing here and who created this thing and how and why, I think that's really the impetus for astrology for me, is like, okay, this all can't just be happenstance. There's too much intelligent design to ignore.

[01:31:12] Debra: Einstein said it best. God is not playing with dice.

[01:31:16] Luke: Oh, I like that.

[01:31:16] Debra: This not a random order.

[01:31:17] Luke: Yeah, I like that.

[01:31:19] Debra: Is that a mystery to everybody? That this amazing reality exists? That you can drink water, it goes through your body, and you just occur that you can breathe air that's the perfect pH balance? It's the air with the perfect chemistry that makes this whole system? Is this not a miracle? Somebody help me.

[01:31:38] I am in awe that those flowers smell like that, that that little baby is going to turn into a grown up like you. It's a miracle. And astrology is the ancient oldest science on earth. Why we don't believe in it? I'll tell you why. So glad you asked. Because the left brain, back to the original, the male-oriented left brain of religion and wanting to control this reality with some order, that was this last era called the Piscean Age, trying to make sense out of this place has failed us, but it was ruling the roost.

[01:32:11] And everything we learned in school and everything we read and all of our minds operating, that thing we're strapped on with, it insists that this place has got to make sense. And the right brain's like a mystery going, "Excuse me, honey. I'm sorry. Your mind can't remember why you chose to come here? I'm sorry.

[01:32:31] "You don't remember your mom and dad on the other side? I'm so sorry. You don't remember how to look at the stars? I'm sorry. Can I help you?" And that's what my school is about. Helping the right brain come on line with the use of the left brain.

[01:32:42] When you get the Windex out, you have to memorize a few things. The first level is a lot of work. And don't take it if you won't do your homework. But it's all about you, so we keep it interesting. The second level is a little less work. Now we're talking about, to your point, how do you do a reading? And people make a living at it.

[01:32:58] And all these coaches that are online, when you have astrology in your back pocket, just like I-- when I realized you have five planets in Scorpio, do you think I'm not going to stare at you? If you were a client and you had Gemini and you were a Libra and you had this little wonderful-- we'd be dancing and singing. Have you seen Blue? Do you know who Blue is?

[01:33:18] Luke: I don't think so.

[01:33:19] Debra: You don't know Blue's podcast?

[01:33:21] Luke: Mm-mm.

[01:33:21] Debra: It's a young woman who has four planets in Scorpio, but all in the house of-- I've never heard anyone more articulate my whole life. Blue of Earth, she's called. I'm on her podcast. That's a very different energy. A live wire that can articulate words faster than me, better than me, who's only 30 years old.

[01:33:42] When I met her, I was like, "Okay, I feel much better." The world is in good hands when we have people like you alive. And that little being, that little teeny baby, who's been here for two months, I looked over at that baby and I went, "We got someone here who's going to be helping us through this transition."

[01:33:56] We are in transition. It's not easy. Every woman giving birth will tell you the same story. Do not make the mistake that something's wrong. Nothing's wrong. Yes, AI is the one thing I'm concerned about. My deepest, darkest fear is that the legislation doesn't get imposed, that the human condition and the nature of our heart is not at the center of that machine.

[01:34:20] That scares me. In which case, once again, you don't think the gods are watching, the angels, the overseers? Oops, there goes another. If that's what happens at the end of this movie, Oops, there goes another one, I promise you, I promise everyone listening, we will make the transition one way or another. And there will be lots of tears and there'll be death involved.

[01:34:42] We have to get 8 million people off the planet who don't respect the host, the servers. If you were in a hotel and you were treating this place, what would happen? The staff would be said, "Could you guys leave now?" A little bit disrespectful how we're taking care of her.

[01:34:56] Some of us are taking care of her. I'm seeing a sacred space I'm sitting in. The promise is, we each remember-- this is what my school's about, my book's about, my classes are about. Oh, wait, my soul's in charge. And my soul signed up for this whole thing and got the assignment, said yes, volunteered for this position.

[01:35:17] Nobody pushed you on the bus. Nobody pushed you on the bus. Now, what can I do to take care of my temple, to be available to the other, to stay perky, to be awake, to give thanks, to be humbled, to pray? That's really all the movie's about. And I didn't get raised with any of this information. They weren't talking about astrology when I grew up or about praying or about knowing how to take care of the body. It's sad. My whole family, it didn't work for them. They got caught in that soup. Not very healthy.

[01:35:52] Luke: Do different signs have relative--

[01:35:54] Debra: Easier access.

[01:35:56] Luke: This is a different one. Do they have a relative affinity toward the element of their sign?

[01:36:05] Debra: 100% yes. Let's ask that question again. Does every being have a propensity and attraction to their element water, Mr. Scorpio?

[01:36:13] Luke: Because I'm obsessed with water.

[01:36:14] Debra: I'm obsessed with air. I don't drive in a car unless I have to. I ride an electric bike for the last 15 years. Hardly ever get in a car. I'm obsessed. I sleep outside. I feel like the wind's my lover. It's probably how you feel about water.

[01:36:33] Luke: Yeah.

[01:36:34] Debra: People that are earth people, your wife, they're married to the land, to dealing with the practical world. That's their favorite. And the fire people are having a birthday party when no one's looking all day long. I'll have another drink. Let's light up. Oh boy, turn up the music. Oh, I'm having so much fun. I'm so loud. And we're like, "Can you tone that person down?" But they can't, because they're in love with their element. So yes, great question.

[01:36:57] Luke: Cool. Always wondered that. I didn't know if it was a self-hypnosis knowing that I'm a water sign. Oh, I should be into water, but it's uncanny. Seriously, when I go on road trips, I follow the map, and when I see blue, I'll pull over and find the water. I got to get in the water. I got to look at the water.

[01:37:17] Debra: I love that so much.

[01:37:18] Luke: We live right next to a lake.

[01:37:20] Debra: Right in front of your door when I open the door.

[01:37:22] Luke: If I'm away from water, I don't feel right. I got to know where it is. Got to be close to it.

[01:37:27] Debra: That's so beautiful. You have to come visit me in Hawaii.

[01:37:28] Luke: Oh man, I love Hawaii. Oh my God. What island do you live on?

[01:37:31] Debra: Hawaii.

[01:37:32] Luke: Epic. Yeah, I have a couple friends that live there that invite me over and I'm like, ah. Just for some reason it remains out of reach.

[01:37:40] Debra: Have you not been yet?

[01:37:41] Luke: Oh, no. I've been. It's just been a few years.

[01:37:43] Debra: Timing is everything, said the astrologer.

[01:37:46] Luke: Yeah, totally. Well, don't say that in vain because don't be surprised if I take you up on it.

[01:37:51] Debra: I like you.

[01:37:52] Luke: I like you too. All right, last question for you. Who have been three teachers or teachings that have influenced your life and made you who you are?

[01:38:00] Debra: Number one is Alice Bailey. You probably don't know her.

[01:38:03] Luke: I've heard the name.

[01:38:04] Debra: Ancient esoteric teacher brought to us in 1900s. Djwhal Khul was the original source. It's in my new book. Really influenced my entire existence and reminded me why I came here. It's not easy to read. The best book that she's written is Ponder on This, where you open it up to all kinds of topics. She's written 19 books.

[01:38:22] Luke: Wow, Alice Bailey.

[01:38:23] Debra: Number one. The books I've read or the people I've met?

[01:38:29] Luke: A philosophy, a teaching, a person, a book.

[01:38:33] Debra: I would say some of the deepest, deepest knowings. Crazy wisdom. Muktananda and that whole circle, I can't say any of the names of those great ones. I'm so embarrassed, but I call them Charles. I make up fake names because I can't say their names. But there's a temple that I go to, without using any names, where I sit in silence and I hitchhike.

[01:38:52] I ride their wisdom, and they are the beings who have transcended words. They laugh a lot. They're crazy. And they've really influenced my mind. They've shown me that my mind was way too heavy loaded with expectations to be as smart as you. So I've reduced my attention to that and moved into their energy field through meditation. So I don't know their names, but they've been my teacher.

[01:39:14] Luke: That is so interesting that you mentioned Muktananda. When I was about eight or nine, my mom took me to his ashram in Oakland, and it had a profound effect on me. The Shaktipat got me. It imprinted me.

[01:39:30] Debra: At eight years old?

[01:39:31] Luke: Mm-hmm.

[01:39:32] Debra: See, that's the nature of someone with five planets in Scorpio. Your antennas were operative.

[01:39:36] Luke: Yeah. I don't remember a lot early in life, but I remember that.

[01:39:41] Debra: I love that story.

[01:39:42] Luke: I was completely enamored with him. Yeah, I was just obsessed, according to my mom. But I remember just so whatever this is, I like this.

[01:39:49] Debra: And I'd say the third, this is going to be surprising to my audience, is probably Christ. That the teachings and the energetic, that I don't know my-- I happen to have a child who's devoted and very, very versed. I'm not. I am, however, energetically bound, married, committed to that frequency on this planet. And I think as I get older, it will reveal itself. I'm not good at following. I don't think you are either. I'm bad.

[01:40:24] Luke: I've never found anything in religion that has interested me. But I'm with you on Jesus. There’s something to that.

[01:40:33] Debra: Yeah. I probably put him first before Alice Bailey, but she talks a lot about him. And I'm not sure that it's a him exclusively. I think it's the combination of him and the mother. There's a quality of unbelievable ecstasy in their love for us, and I pray and hope that I carry that into my experience this lifetime and that my role modeling is both mothering like that woman knew true love and also in my way of being a father of being a role model, a being who's so committed to the one, that he/she, can't think of anything else she wants to do every day. That's how you got me sitting in the seat, by the way.

[01:41:19] Luke: Beautiful.

[01:41:20] Debra: That's how I got in the seat. You were wondering about that? Devotion.

[01:41:24] Luke: I had Marianne Williamson over here a few weeks ago talking about her latest book. I think it's called Jesus the Mystic, I believe. I haven't read it yet, but in the years I've been together with Alyson, she's read a ton of spiritual books in her past, but she's kind of out of the phase of reading the next one and the next one. She really never reads books. She has torn that book apart. It looks like it's 50 years old. She's obsessed with that book.

[01:41:53] Debra: Oh, I'm so excited.

[01:41:55] Luke: I'm excited to read it too. I just can't pry it out of her hands, and Marianne didn't bring another one. But it was an interesting conversation with her because she's coming from, of course, the metaphysical world and A Course in Miracles. She was raised Jewish, and it's just her perspective as someone who's like, I guess not Christian and religious.

[01:42:11] Debra: I'm so excited.

[01:42:13] Luke: Yeah, it's super cool. It might be an interesting book.

[01:42:15] Debra: Oh, thank you for that.

[01:42:16] Luke: Yeah, yeah.

[01:42:17] Debra: Luke did it again. You did it again.

[01:42:18] Luke: She's like, "I know it's a curve ball and I'm fully Jewish, but this is the guy."

[01:42:23] Debra: Jesus was Jewish.

[01:42:25] Luke: Yeah, it's funny.

[01:42:26] Debra: In the family. Silverman.

[01:42:28] Luke: Right. So she was sharing her perspective on it and I was like, "Oh, this is cool." It's an easy entry way for me as someone who has zero experience or interest in religion, but there there's something to that particular avatar, that entity that is--

[01:42:42] Debra: Oh, that's so beautiful.

[01:42:45] Luke: That's charming me in its direction.

[01:42:48] Debra: That's the right answer.

[01:42:49] Luke: In roundabout ways, which is--

[01:42:50] Debra: Not a surprise that his name has continued like astrology across all time. Not a surprise that astrology found him.

[01:42:57] Luke: Right.

[01:42:58] Debra: That's how they found Jesus.

[01:42:58] Luke: Do we know what sign Jesus was? There's a--

[01:43:02] Debra: Very good question.

[01:43:03] Luke: There's a lot of speculation about when he was born, right?

[01:43:06] Debra: Yeah, he's definitely not a Capricorn. That was a hallmark. We're going to have December 24th. You're going to buy these cards, a lot of wrapping paper and some presents, and we're going to call it Jesus's birthday.

[01:43:13] Luke: Right.

[01:43:14] Debra: Who made that up? I would suggest more, if anything, he was probably a Pisces, born under the effect of Pisces, which is very much the Piscean age that he represented, which is really strong in your chart, which is the sacrifice of the ego in the quest of service, selfless service.

[01:43:34] It's the hangman in the Tarot deck. It's the genuine giving up of the self in the quest for the whole. Beautiful, beautiful notion. So Pisces would be my first guess, but these are the mysteries that--

[01:43:47] Luke: I met a guy yesterday. We were talking about zeolite, nothing related to spirituality or anything, but when I asked him the three questions at the end, his was, there were three Bible teachings. So after we ended the recording, we started chatting about that, and I was just telling him I'm Jesus curious, and he was like, "Oh, there's so much misinformation in religion. Some of the stories are wrong." And he goes, "He was actually born on 9/11. He was born on September, 11."

[01:44:12] Debra: Someone just told me that he was a Virgo. Someone just told me that.

[01:44:16] Luke: I wish I could explain how he explained it.

[01:44:17] Debra: But that makes sense because in Alice Bailey, it makes sense. He described mother Mary as being a Virgo. That the sign of Virgo represents mother Mary, because it's the most purest-- Virgo is the single pure intent to be in service to who? Pisces, it's opposite sign. So he called it the mother, but that's interesting to me. That's an interesting--

[01:44:40] Luke: Yeah, I thought it was interesting. And part of what he pointed out to me was that the powers that be that commit atrocities sometimes in the world, being antithetical to humanity, to good, to love, it's like that polarity in our wacky duality, that the event 9/11 was chosen because it was antithetical to the Christ as a--

[01:45:07] Debra: You must get a lot of really interesting downloads through people sitting in this chair.

[01:45:12] Luke: It's incredible.

[01:45:14] Debra: Kind of jelly.

[01:45:15] Luke: You mentioned the diversity of humans. I get so many interesting points of view here.

[01:45:20] Debra: You're so lucky. What a crazy job. I think I have a cool job.

[01:45:23] Luke: It's pretty cool.

[01:45:24] Debra: You have a really cool job.

[01:45:27] Luke: Yeah, I'm very grateful. And when you were talking earlier about people that get in a rut of a career about which they have no passion, it's not their dharma-- I've lived that.

[01:45:35] Debra: Because Saturn's opposite. You're so Saturnian. Your destiny--

[01:45:39] Luke: I've lived that though.

[01:45:41] Debra: Oh no, but it took a minute.

[01:45:42] Luke: I had a career for 17 years that I didn't even like.

[01:45:44] Debra: What was it?

[01:45:46] Luke: I was a fashion stylist in Hollywood. I was a celebrity stylist. Yeah. There were things about it that I enjoyed. Obviously, I would have done it for that long. There's creativity and things, but just--

[01:45:57] Debra: It's all the Libra. But it took a minute.

[01:45:59] Luke: Superficiality of it.

[01:46:00] Debra: Of course, you got done with the pleaser.

[01:46:03] Luke: Was tiresome for me. But looking back, I was thinking about this last night, just like driving around in traffic and going to these stores. It's a lot.

[01:46:11] Debra: And how much you worked.

[01:46:13] Luke: Yeah, it's a lot of work. People don't understand. I used to tell people, "That's a really hard job." They're like, "What?"

[01:46:16] Debra: Everything you do is work.

[01:46:17] Luke: You just play with clothes.

[01:46:19] Debra: Luke, listen to me, Saturn opposite your sun, the old man standing across from you all the time, he's constantly asking you for excellence. And you couldn't do anything less, whatever the job was. So there's that. So you're doing an excellent job of this because of the quality of your Saturn. You can tell your wife that.

[01:46:35] Luke: Well, also, to your point, I really enjoy what I'm doing now. There's work involved, of course, the administrative stuff, but this part, I'm like, "Don't tell anyone I get paid for this." You know what I mean?

[01:46:51] Debra: We're all listening.

[01:46:52] Luke: I really feel like I like I've scammed the system or something like, whoa, you can do this for your job? It's incredible. Because I get so much out of it.

[01:47:01] Debra: Excuse me, I feel the exact same way. I get to look into people's souls and put words to it and facilitate their remembrance, of what they signed up for. And when they remember, they're like, "Thank you so much." And then I did it in numbers in a school where people write me letters and send me gifts going, "I'm back." Because I studied astrology? That's trippy.

[01:47:24] Luke: It's beautiful. Well, thanks for coming to sit down with me today. It's been so fun. I knew it would be. I was really looking forward to this one.

[01:47:31] Debra: Me too.

[01:47:32] Luke: And it did not disappoint and you did not disappoint, and yeah, we'll shut it down and then we'll go grab some dinner.

[01:47:37] Debra: I love that story. Thank you. Thank all of you for being so open and listening because not everybody believes in this shit. But you'll will when you read my book.

[01:47:46] Luke: Awesome. And we'll put all your books and all the things in the show notes.

[01:47:49] Debra: I Don't Believe in Astrology, you can pre-order it on Amazon.

[01:47:51] Luke: Oh yeah?

[01:47:51] Debra: It's up there.

[01:47:52] Luke: Okay, cool. We're going to link it in the show notes then. And I encourage everyone to do it. As someone who's becoming an author, I know how important it is for people to do those pre-orders. So I highly encourage people to do so.

[01:48:02] Debra: Thank you.