[00:00:01] Luke: Why do you think detoxing is so important in today's world? It's obvious, but what's your perspective?

[00:00:08] Jeff: Yeah, I just think living in the 21st century, it's no longer optional. We have to do something to take control of our health because we're not going to stay healthy by accident anymore. And I think detox is step number one. I think it's because we're exposed to so many environmental toxicants along with emotional stressors and various other stressors that our bodies just can't process the amount of toxicity coming in.

[00:00:28] So I think that's the main reason. And I think there's two categories of toxicity. You've got the internal production and the external exposure, and I think a lot of the focus is on the external exposure. So food, water, air, the obvious things, the cosmetics, the personal hair products.

[00:00:44] But then you have, I think what is probably the greatest source of toxicity, which is the internally produced toxins. These are things like metabolic waste products, histamine, ammonia, urea. These type of things along with free radicals and just the normal toxins that our bodies are producing on a daily basis.

[00:01:02] And when we're not functioning at our highest level, someone with a complex health challenge or a chronic illness, their organs are not going to be working properly, and they're not going to be able to handle that internally produced toxin production as a normal person, and their body's going to have to use their detox energy on those things.

[00:01:17] So then the toxic elements that are coming in from outside, our body can't handle it, so it just tucks it into storage. And that's where we get this build up of toxic accumulation in fat and tissues. So that's why people just generally become more toxic as time goes on.

[00:01:32] And even if someone is living a perfectly clean lifestyle now, that's fantastic because they've reduced or prevented the further accumulation. But those toxic elements that have been stored just get stuck in the body because the body tends to just leave them there. Because it can be stressful to get them out, the body just prefers to keep them there, opposed to have the stress of trying to remove them.

[00:01:52] Luke: Wow. That's really interesting. I never really thought about the internal toxins that your body's producing. I guess I've considered things like the ammonia and things like that. The creepy crawlies that live within us are using us as a toilet. So I get that, but that makes a lot of sense. So I just like this compounding effect.

[00:02:17] One side of me is always just wanting to avoid fear mongering myself in my own life, obviously on the podcast, and things I share too, but I don't want to focus too much on that, but it's also really unwise to ignore a lifetime of toxic exposure. I've been living really clean for a long time and we'll talk about some of my journey using your Zeolite product and mineral balancing and things.

[00:02:50] And I'm like, "Wow." Even after all these years of really being committed to this, I still feel the effects of it sometimes. So that's a really great framework. What got you personally into it to begin with?

[00:03:02] Jeff: Just my own personal health challenge. So just from birth really. Had a traumatic birth experience. I was on antibiotics growing up a lot, and they were limited in their effectiveness, but just really messed up my gut microbiota from the beginning and then was relatively healthy as a child, but started having some issues again during the teenage years.

[00:03:21] And I just remember some weird symptoms that I didn't really know what was going on at the time. But for example, I couldn't drive in broad daylight without falling asleep behind the wheel. I always felt drunk. I wasn't consuming any alcohol, didn't drink at all. I couldn't walk a straight line, any of that, but I couldn't drive for more than 10, 15 minutes in broad daylight without getting drowsy and falling asleep.

[00:03:41] On my way to the DMV, when I turned 17 to renew my license, I actually fell asleep behind the wheel, and I was waking up as I was hitting the car in front of me. That's probably severe yeast and fungal overgrowth. I wasn't making that connection at the time, but just the antibiotic use from a young age catching up later in life. And then I just went in and got a injection. I think people know what I'm talking about there with that word. I don't know if we can say it. But injection and that kind of triggered things in a negative direction.

[00:04:10] So kind of autoimmune responses and just recurring mono and just viral infections for the next number of years, and that's what led me to functional medicine. And I did try a few natural things at the time, just some B complex and supplements, but I didn't really know a whole lot about functional medicine.

[00:04:28] And I moved to Hawaii shortly after to really relax, soak up the sun, try to calm things down, and I started going to conventional medicine doctors. Because really growing up after age 4 or 5, we never had insurance. So after the initial antibiotic use, I basically never saw a doctor for 15 years, which was probably okay until that physical. But then I went to Hawaii and started going into the conventional model because I said, "Hey, I have insurance. I might as well give this a shot."

[00:04:55] Went through nine or 10 doctors and basically got nowhere. It's probably a typical response for a lot of your listeners where it's in your head or it's just stress or whatever it is, which I knew it was something deeper. And then one of my friends said, "Oh, you should go see my doctor. He's a functional medicine doctor."

[00:05:11] And I said, "What is that?" And he's like, "Just go check it out." So I go to him and he's like, "Oh, you need to get this allergy test." And I was like, "I've already had allergy tests." He's like, "No, this one's not covered by insurance. It's $400." I'm like, "Okay, great. Let's do it." And it was a food sensitivity test, which I didn't really understand at the time, but that came up with all these things.

[00:05:30] I had 25 foods I was reacting to. I stopped eating those and actually started feeling better. And actually wrote a job proposal to that laboratory, built a website, hirejeff.com, wrote a job proposal and went and worked for that food sensitivity lab. And that's really what pushed me into functional med, because I was working with all functional medicine doctors, who are my basically clients that were offering this testing, and I was learning what was working and what wasn't working, and I quickly realized that there's a lot more to this than avoiding trigger foods, healing the gut and just getting more to the root cause.

[00:06:02] But that led me on this journey. I did some functional training, functional diagnostic nutrition training. I was at one point doing the master's program in functional medicine from University of Western States. Never finished that, but basically just got into functional medicine and then got into supplements, opened up a biohacking center, just started discovering all this great stuff because there's so many incredible tools out there to help us stay up to the challenge of 21st century living.

[00:06:27] And what I was finding is a lot of this stuff was helping me and helping others feel better, but it wasn't removing the root sources of the dysfunction. So basically people were having to continue this biohacking technology and various supplements to prop themselves up, but they had to keep doing it, and it was very expensive, time-consuming, and really a lifestyle.

[00:06:49] So I said, what is the missing link? And that's when I started thinking, and it was really detox. So I got into detox and I said, okay, how can we effectively detox? And I thought I was offering effective detox methods with infrared sauna and oxygen therapy, the biohacking stuff plus fulvic and humic, seaweeds, and all these things.

[00:07:08] But then it just dawned on me, and this was probably only six, seven years ago, that detox is just harder than we think because detox is ultimately up to the body. The body is in control of detox, and if we try to force something that the body doesn't want to do, it's going to basically reject it.

[00:07:24] So sometimes we think that we're detoxing, but we're actually not detoxing, because the body sometimes will hold on to these deeply stored metals and various toxicants as a self defense mechanism. Because the body's priority is short-term survival over long-term thrival. So it sounds crazy, but the body would prefer to have, let's say, mercury in your brain opposed to having it being actively detoxed where it's been exposed to the immune system, where it's causing an inflammatory reaction and a lot of stress.

[00:07:55] So for people that have some sort of complex or chronic illness, once they get these metals deeply stored in organs and tissue, generally the body doesn't want to let go because it's too stressful to get them out. So when someone goes on a detox protocol, either they experience terrible Herx reaction, detox reactions, or their body just simply doesn't want to let go as a self defense mechanism.

[00:08:15] So that's when I got into detox and then I discovered Zeolite. And that was really the game changer because Zeolite just was one of the most effective detox tools I came across. But I quickly understood that, yes, it was a very powerful supplement, but probably one of the most misunderstood supplements on the market.

[00:08:34] That's what got me into diving into it, and I discovered the dosing paradox, which we'll probably get into. And just now what I'm doing is just trying to provide education on what it is, how to use it properly for best results.

[00:08:46] Luke: Amazing. And that's why I was so excited to talk to you, because I really enjoy people that grab onto a niche passion and just won't let go and keep going deeper and deeper. And so, yeah, it's one of the things that I enjoy about doing what I do, is just always having my radar out for the top dog on any given topic.

[00:09:13] The audience we'll see why in a few minutes as we keep going, but I've never found anyone that knows as much about Zeolite as you, which is really, really fun for me. And to give you a little bit of history, I'm going back probably 20 years when I started really looking at different ways to detox. I was doing magnetic clay baths and even baths and Zeolite, charcoal, and all kinds of stuff and taking it internally.

[00:09:43] And I was using different forms of powdered Zeolite on and off for a number of years. And then there was a big wellness scare that it had aluminum in it. And I'm like, "Wow." The aluminum is one of the metals I'm trying to get out of my body. And so I just put it on the shelf for a while and started just periodically using activated charcoal and things like that.

[00:10:08] But not in a systemic way that you're going to describe and what you teach and recommend. Just more like, oh, I ate some crappy food. So I take a couple of charcoals. Or feeling a little off, take some charcoal, take a little Zeolite, and things like that. But I think the Zeolite market itself has really changed the landscape since I first learned about it.

[00:10:31] And like I said, you're the first guy that's just geeked out on this so hard and actually made your zero charge product. With those watching the video, you can see that we have it here. Whatever size, and we'll get into this, but however, you're grinding this up and processing it into a really fine powder, it makes it also much easier to take.

[00:10:53] And, I just did a test. My wife, Alyson, who you'll probably meet at some point, she usually hides in the bedroom because it's the only place to hide when we're recording in here, but she's very sensitive to taste. I'm always trying to get her to take healthy stuff, and if it tastes too gross or has a weird consistency, she's like, "I don't care how good it is. I'm not doing it."

[00:11:14] But she's in a bit of a cleanse process right now. Just did a liver and gallbladder cleanse, which she wrapped up this morning, and I was like, "Oh, it'd be a perfect time for you to take some Zeolite." So I put four scoops and I'm just sitting there, "Oh man, I hope she can stomach it."

[00:11:28] It was no problem because the consistency, it's a little chalky, but it's not like sand. A lot of the old-school Zeolite was literally like you went to the beach and stirred some sand into water. It's just not a pleasant experience. So I'm really excited to deep dive this.

[00:11:48] I guess let's start before we get into the deets on the difference between taking a periodic binder or doing the full deep dive that I've been doing on your stuff. Let's talk about testing Because this is something I think there's a lot of confusion about, and it can be very daunting.

[00:12:10] You start to do challenged urine tests for heavy metals. You do blood tests. There's the hair mineral tissue thing that I can never remember. HT-- whatever it's called, hair testing. There's all these different testing you could do, and I think for me at times and people that I know, it gets very daunting because it's difficult to really track your progress. And your body's so dynamic that they can change on a dime.

[00:12:37] And it's just difficult to base your detox programming around testing if you don't know what you're doing and you're not really guided by someone. So maybe just give me your whole spiel on the world of testing for toxins. And then we'll talk about how we use Zeolite to get them out.

[00:12:54] Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. So there's a lot of great tests. And the thing to consider is just, what are we testing? That's the most important thing. So we have the urine test. So that's measuring what is coming out of the urine. Blood test. What is in the blood? Hair. What is coming out of the hair? Generally over a three-month average period that we've got things like the *illegal scan, which I utilize, which is a tissue test.

[00:13:14] So there's all these different tests, and you've got bioenergetic testing, muscle testing, these things. But they're all testing different things. And the one thing we have to understand is none of these are detecting organ levels of metals. So we've got the urine. It's just what is actively being excreted.

[00:13:29] So if someone has a complex illness and their body is keeping these metals tucked away in organs, you might have zero or very low metals coming out of the urine. That doesn't mean you don't have a heavy metal problem. It just means that your body's not actively detoxing them. So as you start a detox protocol, then you get retested.

[00:13:47] A lot of times the levels rise because now your body is mobilized. These metals that were stored in organs and tissue, and they're coming out of the body. So that's why a lot of people will get a test and they'll see whatever level it is. Let's say it's a moderate to high level, and they say, "Okay, I want to get these metals out of my body."

[00:14:04] They do a three-month detox protocol and then they retest. And this could be with any method, hair-- any method. They retest in three months, and the levels are now higher. And they say, "Well, what happened? The product must be contaminated. It's not working." Well, not necessarily. That's actually what you want to see because now you have an increased mobilization of these toxic element metals that were in organs and they're coming out of the body. And that's what you're seeing on the test.

[00:14:30] Now, sometimes, let's say that same person would have retested after two months. The levels were lower. And they say, "Oh, it's working." So it's really hit or miss based on when they're testing. So when someone is going to test, I tell them, I like people to test every single month with any method, because really what you want to see is how the body is processing these metals. And the goal is not to get from high to low. It's just to see movement.

[00:14:53] Because the body, like I said before, is in control of detox. So it's going to be releasing metals at its own pace. Let me give you an example. This might help people understand. So someone called me the other day in a panic, because he was working with some functional medicine practitioner and doing IV chelation and all these various chelators in this detox protocol.

[00:15:13] And he had done a urine test and very few metals came out, and then he did the challenge urine test the same day where he took I think EDTA or DMSA, a synthetic chelator, and then took the sample. And then he had high levels of thallium, mercury, lead, aluminum, and cesium, some of the most toxic metals.

[00:15:32] So that initial test indicated, one, that on his own he was not detoxing. His body was keeping these metals in tissue, so natural excretion, nothing was really coming out. When he challenged himself, when he took the chelators, that mobilized some of these metals, and then it showed up on the test.

[00:15:50] So then he did three months of the protocol, and he could barely tolerate it. He was having just incredible detox reactions. He had to stop. But he retested after, I think, two and a half months, and he did the challenge test again this time, and the levels were basically identical. So in his mind, and he told me he was switching over to zero charge one because he couldn't tolerate the other stuff. And he thought that it wasn't working.

[00:16:14] But I said, really, we don't know if it was working or not because even though the levels were the same on this test, two and a half months later, we don't know what happened in the interim. So what I found is that the body tends to release metals at a specific pace. The body will only let go-- even if you're taking a chelator or detox agent, your body's still only going to let go of what it wants to let go.

[00:16:35] And that's generally going to be the same amount on a monthly basis. So it's possible that he actually released quite a few metals in entire two-and-a-half-month period. And it's just on this challenge test, he's releasing the same amount, if that makes sense. So like with the illegal scan that I use, it's a tissue test.

[00:16:53] And what I like to see is after 30 days, I want the levels to go up. Because that indicates that the metals are coming out of organs. They're coming into the general tissue, and they're preparing for excretion. And then they'll come back down and then they'll go up again the next test and then they'll come back down and they cycle back and forth.

[00:17:11] So it appears, at least from the research I've done with the Oligoscan, which is measuring the metals in the tissue of your hand, is that the body has a very specific level, kind of a stress threshold for these metals, at least in general tissue, or at least in your hand, and then once that level gets elevated, so the metals are coming from another tissue into your hand, the body says that's enough, and then it clears them from the body, and then it repeats the process.

[00:17:35] But the medals almost always go back to the exact same, like to the sixth decimal point on the test. The levels come back to the exact same markers as they started. So it just shows you how incredible the body is, and how it knows exactly what it wants, and when it gets a little bit stressed, it just stops.

[00:17:50] So you can be taking, I call it detox cycling. So you're never going to be continuously dumping these metals from organs and tissue. The body is going to go in phases where it's going to release things and then it's going to go in a cleanup phase. So on the release phase, it's going to go from organs to general tissue, kind of as a short term storage.

[00:18:06] And then on the cleanup phase, it goes from general tissue out the body. So then if you do a urine or a blood test, you're going to see elevated markers, but on the initial dump phase, you're not going to see those elevated markers in urine and blood because they're not yet there. They're in the general tissue.

[00:18:21] So that's why the testing is so hit or miss because it's just what phase of detox are you in. What cycle of detox are you in? So if you could do all the tests every two weeks, you could get incredible data. But at that point we're spending a lot of money and it's going to be difficult. So with whatever test someone chooses to do, I would just recommend doing it consistently and consistently to see the journey, not just trying to get from point A to point B, because if you're taking any detox method and you're trying to get from a high level to a low level, you're probably going to be disappointed. But that doesn't mean the protocol is not working.

[00:18:54] Luke: It's so frustrated. I mean, God bless the body and its infinite wisdom, right? Because it seems the body's just trying to find homeostasis. But as linear thinkers, we want to see something before, apply a solution and see improvement afterward. You just want those three touch points.

[00:19:14] And unfortunately it sounds like it doesn't work like that. The only time in my experience that I've seen that was-- and I don't know that I would recommend this because I haven't looked into it much since, but have you ever heard of the L Ron Hubbard Niacin flesh program?

[00:19:33] Jeff: Is it different than just a traditional niacin inflection?

[00:19:35] Luke: It's like a scientology thing, which I was never in scientology, but a friend of mine years ago-- I was in a band and a guy in my band had been a drug addict, a heroin addict which I was too prior to that. And thankfully not anymore, obviously. But I went to rehab and did that whole thing.

[00:19:57] And I was really fascinated by his story because he went to scientology and then got sober and lived happily ever after. And when I was asking him about it, he said the way they do it is they use this-- I forget what it's called. They have some scientology name for it, but it's this detox program that L. Ron Hubbard wrote about in a book and it's how they-- they have their own drug treatment program within scientology and it's the program they use and it involves taking incrementally higher doses of niacin every day for 30 days, followed by a sauna until you get up to like grams of niacin, what would normally turn someone the color of a tomato and probably knock them over.

[00:20:43] So anyway, he told me about it. I was like, wow, that's really interesting. And so people would get out of that 30 day thing and they wouldn't have the withdrawals and all this stuff and they would be able to clean up. And that was their method of doing so. I just remembered that even though that was like, God, 30 years ago or something.

[00:21:01] Anyway, I did some testing and found I had crazy high lead, which I think I got from using a heat gun to remove old paint from a banister without wearing a mask. So I was vaporizing lead every day for two weeks in one of my weird home projects. Anyway, I was full of lead, mercury, all the things.

[00:21:22] And so I was like, Oh, there's that L. Ron Hubbard thing. So I got the program from this dude on Facebook. And then you have to take all these supplements, all these fat-soluble vitamins and things like that because the idea with the niacin is you're exploding fat cells that are carrying these toxins and so you're also sweating out and eliminating all of your nutrients too.

[00:21:44] So you're kind of like mega dosing certain nutrients while you're upping the dose of the niacin. So I did that thing, did the saunas, I committed to the program for 30 days, then I retested and all of those metals were almost to zero. Now is the only time that I've ever experienced a before and after and got that sense of gratification from that.

[00:22:08] But in all of my experience, other than that has been what you said, it's just like mind boggling because you're like, ah, I'm not making any progress. It's really difficult to get that satisfactory place of completion. It's just like, God, when does this end? It's like, I'm just going to go around and around in circles forever.

[00:22:29] So anyway, let's talk about then Zeolite specifically, because like I said, I don't know anyone that knows more about it. So start from ground zero, like where does it come from and how did people first start using it in this capacity?

[00:22:47] Jeff: So it's a natural mineral. It's a naturally occurring mineral that's mined from the earth. And I do want to say when I'm talking about Zeolite here, I'm talking about clenoptilolite. So there are a bunch of different naturally occurring forms of Zeolite. But clenoptilolite, Zeolite is the one that's used in supplements because that's the one that has the clinical research and it's shown to be safe.

[00:23:10] And that's the one that's not going to cause aluminum toxicity, which we can get into. So don't just take all of this information and say, Oh, good Zeolite and go buy some random Zeolite because you want clenoptilolite, natural, purified with a lot of other specifications Zeolite. There's also synthetic Zeolites, which we can talk about a little bit.

[00:23:27] So there's this whole category. Zeolite is basically a class of mineral. But what they did is they-- Zeolites in general have unique detox potential or a cation exchange potential. So they're able to bind to things. They're basically unique binders. So initially there were studied for water filtration.

[00:23:44] So there's lots of studies on Zeolite for water purifying contaminated water so it's able to remove all sorts of toxic byproducts. It's just this very broad spectrum binder. It was even used in the Chernobyl disaster to remove cesium and strontium 137 from the water after-- just from nuclear waste it's able to remove BPA and glyphosate and all these things from the water supply. So we studied for that a long time ago.

[00:24:10] And then they said okay, this has great potential for water. Let's start studying this for animals. So then they started with the animal studies And they're still using it for animals as well. And it's able to bind to aflatoxins and ocrotoxin A and these mycotoxins. So they're using it in the animal feed for the mold.

[00:24:26] And it was helping reduce the odor of the waste because it's binding to ammonia, all these things. And they were doing all this clinical research on clineptilolite, Zeolite for animals. And discovering that, well, this is improving a lot of biomarkers and it wasn't depleting any essential nutrients.

[00:24:42] It was actually increasing antioxidant capacity, glutathione peroxidase superoxidase dismutase. All the studies were showing it didn't deplete blood levels of any of the minerals, which was surprising. Because they assumed that a chelating agent was going to be doing that but it wasn't, so they said okay, now let's move this to humans and then it became available for human use and it's a relatively new supplement. So you're towards the beginning. It's only been around for probably about 25 years on the market for human consumption. But started with water, then went to animals and then for humans, but basically we've got this naturally-occurring mineral that has a negative charge. So it's got this cage-like structure.

[00:25:23] the zeolite particle has a bunch of micro pores on it that are all like cages. So it's this honeycomb cage-like structure, and they're able to attach to positively charged toxic elements that we don't want in our bodies. What's unique about zeolite opposed to a lot of the other binding agents and chelators is that it's considered a smart binder or a selective binder because it works by a different mechanism. So if you were to take an activated charcoal, or a chelator or some other binder, it's generally going in and indiscriminately binding to whatever's there. So after a drug overdose, they'll even use activated charcoal in the medical community because it just goes in and just swaps stuff up.

[00:26:03] It's fantastic for that. So these traditional binders are really good for short-term use. Like you said earlier, you're taking a couple of capsules of charcoal after eating something unhealthy, just binding stuff in the gut. Fantastic for those things, but for a long-term use, not ideal because they could be depleting nutrients and causing other issues and they're not as well tolerated for long-term use. Same as synthetic chelators.

[00:26:23] Zeolite is basically a next-generation binder or a smart binder where it's a selective binder, so it's working by a swap mechanism. So instead of just going in and mopping everything up, the good, the bad, and the ugly, It's selectively binding the toxic elements because naturally-occurring, it has electrolytes, potassium, magnesium, sodium, calcium present in its cage and the little pores, and it'll trade those for the heavier, more toxic elements. So the heavier elements just happened to be the more toxic elements. That's why we call them heavy metals, along with other toxins. So for example, let's say you have the zeolite particle that comes in and naturally-occurring it's got the magnesium in the cage, and then it comes across some mercury, it swaps the magnesium for the mercury.

[00:27:13] Now you have mercury securely fastened in this cage and you've released the magnesium. So that's one difference as well. It has this cage structure opposed to other things that are just adsorbing the toxic elements to the surface, which sometimes is a loose bond and then it will drop those things later.

[00:27:29] Potentially redistribute zeolite securely fastens these things in the cage. It can also adsorb things to the surface as well, but the most efficient method is when it absorbs them into the cage. Now, one thing to note, and we can get into this when we talk about dosing, is that zeolite is not limited to one swap.

[00:27:47] And this is where the dosing becomes crucially important. So for example, let's say in this example the magnesium is swapped for mercury. But then the zeolite particle that now has mercury comes across lead. Most companies and people will tell you once the mercury is in there, it's never going to leave. Zeolite can do no harm.

[00:28:03] And because this is perfect binder, zero side effects possible, which we know is not true with anything. But if this zeolite that now has mercury comes across lead, it actually likes the lead more than it likes mercury. So it's going to swap again. It's going to swap the mercury for the lead. Now you have lead in the cage, and the mercury is free floating.

[00:28:23] So it just works by swapping, and it's going to keep swapping until it has the thing that it prefers, and then it's going to leave the body. And that's just a prelude to the dosing. That's why you want a higher dose, because you want to have enough available Zeolite cages to bind the things that were caught and then dropped. The swap and drop mechanism, I call it.

[00:28:42] Luke: So fascinating.

[00:28:43] Jeff: It's super interesting stuff.

[00:28:44] Luke: It's crazy that God created something like that. That's how I look at anything that I can't quite understand that's just this fasting. It's like, who thought of that? Well, whatever it is that created everything had the forethought to create something this unique in the earth realm that has that natural intelligent design baked into it. It's so fascinating.

[00:29:11] Jeff: That's interesting because I like to call it a solution by nature supercharged by science. But it was actually, I think, developed by God to clean up the environment. Because zeolite is a volcanic mineral. So it's a byproduct of the volcanic ash's interaction with water under the earth or seawater. And then it forms this mineral over time.

[00:29:34] So after you have a volcanic eruption, it's going to be very toxic on the environment. There's going to be all sorts of metals and things. And then the by product of that eruption is going to be this mineral that's actually cleaning up the environment.

[00:29:47] Luke: Oh, cool.

[00:29:49] Jeff: So I think initially that's what it was really for, is actually to clean up the environment, but then now we can clean it and utilize it for human consumption.

[00:29:58] Luke: Like ozone. That's how I think of ozone, is like the disinfectant of the sky. It's like you have a storm and you smell that ozone. It's like a giant Lysol spray that nature created to clean up the air and all of the electromagnetism involved. And then some smart human was like, "Hey, we can actually make lightning ourselves and basically electrify oxygen and create this other gas." Now I use ozone all the time, for example. It's one my most prized home pharmacy, home clinic applications.

[00:30:37] How did you find the ideal source? As you said, there are many different types of zeolite. But if everyone's figured out, "Oh, this is the one that we did the animal studies and cleaned up Chernobyl, and so we want this one, which I'll never try to pronounce, but I remember you said it, and it's presumably under the ocean somewhere near a formerly active volcano. How did you find the good source? Do they have to take submarines down to get it? How's it actually mined?

[00:31:06] Jeff: So clinoptilolite is pretty prevalent in a lot of places because it's been around for a long time. It's just that there's certain sources or certain zeolite mines, basically, that are going to be a lot higher concentration. So for example, our clinoptilolite content is 94%. So some of the zeolites are 10, 20, 30% where you're just getting other organic matter, but it's not really a zeolite product.

[00:31:31] And even some of them on the market are in 70%, 79% clinoptilolite. Ours is 94. So that was one consideration, is getting the highest content of clinoptilolite. And then in an area that really was uncontaminated and it's a private mine opposed to a lot of the commercial mines.

[00:31:47] Because that's another consideration, is that zeolite is used still for a lot of industrial applications, because it's still used in water filtration and all sorts of other things because it has unique properties with this cation exchange, a swap mechanism. Even as a dehumidifier.

[00:32:01] So zeolite will actually absorb water and then it'll release the water. So if it's in a human environment, it'll absorb water, then you put zeolite in a dry environment, it releases the water. So it just has this very unique ability to swap all sorts of things, odors. They're putting zeolite in certain plastics now to hold produce and fresh goods because it'll extend the shelf life because it's absorbing some of the gas by products of the breakdown of vegetables and things. So all these unique properties.

[00:32:32] So anyway, there's a lot of thought that goes into choosing a source, but basically I teamed up with one of the individuals who was a pioneer in the industry. He was actually the first person to ever sell a zeolite supplement in the United States, and there was someone else in Europe concurrently at the same time, but I partnered with him because I didn't know everything there is to know about zeolite, and I wasn't going to go test every single zeolite mine and do all these things.

[00:32:54] So basically I have a partnership with him where I'm utilizing his private mine, his special zeolite, his proprietary cleaning process, remineralization, and everything that he's figured out, how to basically optimize zeolite supplementation over the last 25, 30 years. And then we just take that and make it better, basically.

[00:33:13] So we further process what he had initially done. And the reason he and other people didn't do it is just because it's really expensive. So the more you process it and the finer you make it, like you pointed out, it's a very fine powder opposed to the others you've tried and the others that are on the market, it's because it's a lot more expensive to do that.

[00:33:32] So it's a little bit of a premium product, but I wanted to it to be the best. So we basically took the best, and that's what I like to do with business, to take the best of what's available, then I like to make it better. Then I like to provide the best education on it so people know how to use it properly. So I think that's really what I've done here.

[00:33:47] Luke: Epic. So when we're talking about this private mine, I'm assuming it's now on land. It's not being mined from underwater.

[00:33:54] Jeff: Correct. There were no submarines involved.

[00:33:56] Luke: Okay. So at some point there was a volcanic event that then interacted with ocean water.

[00:34:04] Jeff: The groundwater basically. Yeah.

[00:34:08] Luke: Oh, okay. Like with a marine aquifer of sorts. Okay. Got it. I'm just trying to picture it all.

[00:34:17] Jeff: And there's been, I think some speculation that some of the benefits of zeolite are actually that it contains basically super structured, potentially primary water.

[00:34:27] Luke: Oh, interesting.

[00:34:29] Jeff: As some of the benefits of it. So it's an interesting on it as well.

[00:34:32] Luke: I’m impressed that you know about primary water. There's so many psyops these days you can't even keep up, but years ago when I was really deep diving spring water and just looking at the common understanding of the hydrological cycle and all of this stuff and just standing on a mountain at 10,000 feet and there's pristine water spouting out of a rock, I'm like, "What's levitating this water? We're nowhere near an aquifer."

[00:35:02] So then I started going on the rabbit hole and learn about this idea of primary water, which is essentially for those that haven't heard that the planet's making water infinitely. It also happens to make oil. A lot of the things we've been led to believe-- let's talk about electricity and the ethers. It's pretty much like every resource that we need to sustain our life is infinitely available and produced by the earth realm itself.

[00:35:28] Jeff: Yeah. It just doesn't make sense that we would have a water shortage. It doesn't make any sense.

[00:35:33] Luke: Yeah. Or that some droplets of water flew from outer space and made the oceans rise.

[00:35:38] Jeff: Right, right. No.

[00:35:39] Luke: I don't know. The planet is like, we're so naive and arrogant as humanity itself to think we even understand what this thing is and how it works. But one thing that's abundantly clear is that there is water that is coming from in certain places, not all springs, because there are aquifers, underground lakes, and things like that.

[00:35:58] But there are definitely places on earth where that water is coming up, and it's brand new. It's never been here before. Just like there's a lot of fear mongering around drinking spring water because it can be contaminated with acid rain and this and that. And I'm like, "No, not all springs are created equal."

[00:36:14] So that's an interesting idea that there's the possibility of primary water, which is very structured, of course, coherent water coming out of the earth, having something to do with the makeup of this particular zeolite. Okay. So you find this guy. He's the OG. He's got access to this private mine. So you're getting a clean source. What goes into the further processing, the decontamination? You mentioned remineralizing. Run me through all the geeky details on that.

[00:36:46] Jeff: Yeah. So a lot of the supplements, basically they're just using these commercial mines, and they're just taking it and packaging it. That's what you get. And because the zeolite itself, because it's a pretty abundant mineral, is very cheap. So that's why you're going to see some products that are going to be quite affordable.

[00:37:01] And you say, you know, "Why is this one $59 a jar where I can get this bag of it for--" Agricultural or industrial purposes is just different because it's the processing that's expensive. So you start with the zeolite. So we've got the pure mine to begin with, so it really is not contaminated, opposed to a lot of the others. The commercial mines are also going to have diesel and all sorts of other issues, mycotoxins, because they're just not treating it for human consumption, so lots of issues.

[00:37:25] So anyway, coming from the private mine, and then it's going to go through a cleaning process. So there's always going to be some natural contamination in zeolite because it is cleaning up the environment, as it was designed to do. So it gets purified, and then it gets remineralized.

[00:37:39] Because what you don't want is to wash out all of these naturally occurring electrolytes and minerals that are in the zeolite, because that's how it works by the swap mechanism. So you then have to remineralize it with potassium, sodium, magnesium, calcium, so that there are those cations, those positively charged elements for exchange purposes.

[00:37:56] Luke: Got it. So if it was completely inert and devoid of all its natural constituents, then it would have the effect that some other binders do of--

[00:38:06] Jeff: It would the chelator. So chelator, I think, comes from the Greek word claw. So it's more of just a grabbing where the whole magic of zeolite is the swap mechanism. And you need those essential minerals in the zeolite for that swap mechanism to be able to take place. And that's what makes it selective or smart. Yeah.

[00:38:24] Luke: So cool.

[00:38:25] Jeff: Yeah, so there's a lot that goes into it. And then third-party testing. So we also test it for mycotoxins, E. coli, bacteria, and stuff like that, just because a lot of the products are going to be contaminated in the market, and they're not going to give you that third-party testing.

[00:38:39] So we have that as well showing no issues. And then the third-party testing document, which shows there are cations present for exchange, and it's not contaminated with heavy metals. But the interesting thing as well, and we might as well get into this aluminum issue because by definition, all zeolites are aluminosilicates.

[00:38:58] So they're primarily comprised of silica and aluminum by definition. So that right there is why a lot of people think I'm never going to take it. I'm trying to detox aluminum from my body. Why would I take something that has aluminum? So one thing to understand is you can't get a zeolite that doesn't have aluminum because if it doesn't have aluminum, it's not zeolite. By definition, it is an aluminum silicate.

[00:39:22] The thing to understand is that it's a structure. It's this zeolite particle, this honeycomb structure. It's not bioavailable aluminum. It's not this free-floating aluminum that's just there that's going to be released into your body. It's part of a structure that simply passes through, grabs things, and leaves the body.

[00:39:41] So the aluminum is actually what gives it that negative ionic charge. So that's how it works. Now, that's also why clinoptilolite was chosen as the form of zeolite to be used for humans, is because it's stable. So other forms of zeolite would probably break down in your stomach acid and cause aluminum toxicity. But clinoptilolite was chosen because it's stable. And it's stable because it has a high silica to aluminum ratio.

[00:40:09] So clinoptilolite has more silica and less aluminum than some of the other zeolites. And ours actually has even more than any others that we've ever tested. So ours has an incredibly high-- it's over 74% silica by content, which is very high. So it's going to be even more stable than other zeolites, but all clinoptilolite zeolite products should be stable as long as they're natural.

[00:40:31] So some of the synthetic versions have been shown to cause aluminum accumulation in organs, which is going to be a problem, but the natural forms have always shown to cause no aluminum toxicity and in fact have an aluminum detoxing effect. And one thing on that note, so prior to launching this company, I read some of the literature and the research, and I was saying, "This is great."

[00:40:53] It's not causing aluminum toxicity. It's not messing up mineral balance. It's improving nutrient status. It's doing all these great things. And I read that, but I wanted to prove it for myself. So prior to launching zeolite labs-- and the reason I launched it, one is because I wanted a practitioner-friendly brand.

[00:41:10] Because most of the zeolite products out there, there's a lot of network marketing. There's a lot of hype, and it's hard to get good information on zeolite. It's just a very difficult industry. So I wanted something that could really be trusted. I wanted to prove what it could do.

[00:41:25] So prior to launching, we did a six-month case studies program. We wanted to answer some of the tough questions. Is it going to cause aluminum toxicity? Is it going to deplete essential nutrients? Is it actually going to help detox? And is it going to be able to detox from a tissue level? So we did six months of case studies and they're on the website.

[00:41:42] You can check out the case studies page and see these for yourself. But we saw that one, it was absolutely not causing aluminum toxicity. So we're basically the only zeolite product that can prove that it's not going to. I'm not saying the other ones will because I don't think they will, but we can prove that not only does it not cause aluminum toxicity, and we're talking about high doses, which we're still going to get into.

[00:42:02] Even at high doses, hundreds of times the dose that other companies are recommending, we're still seeing a reduction in tissue levels of aluminum. So it's not causing aluminum toxicity. I personally did a ten-day challenge where I took an entire jar a day. 150 grams of ZeoCharge, test myself before and after zero movement in aluminum. Just zero to the fifth decimal point. So I did that prior even in the case studies. But then in the case studies, levels were going down.

[00:42:27] Luke: Dude, what if you would have gotten the fire in your belly for this project, you got a great business idea, you got the passion, you're really into it, and you spent that six months and got the opposite results? That would have sucked.

[00:42:40] Jeff: Yeah. Then I move on to something else. That's the thing. I would rather find out first because if I didn't find out, then I never would have found out. Because then if I'm rolling and we're doing these podcasts and people are buying it, am I then going to go? Because I wouldn't want to do it because I would be afraid of the results.

[00:42:59] So it's better to get it out there, find out if you're going to be-- I don't want to sell a subpar product. I'm not doing this to profit. So there's two main types of companies. The company that is primarily focused on helping the consumer and then the company that's primary focused on profits.

[00:43:15] So I always want to be the person that's focused on helping people first and profits come second, because otherwise you cut corners and you're less concerned about the consumer. So that's why I'm doing it, my own personal challenges. I know it's just been life changing for a lot of people.

[00:43:27] And it was a little bit scary because honestly, I wasn't a hundred percent sure what the results were going to be. Like you said, what if it was causing aluminum toxicity? I would have all that research and work just out the drain. I would have had to find something else, but thankfully that wasn't the case.

[00:43:40] Luke: Well, the thing about your perspective, your moral compass, and I like to think that I share that, is I think a lot of people that get into business just out of ignorance are short-sighted when they put the profit first, not understanding that if you put serving your customer first, that that's way more profitable and sustainable in the long run anyway. It's like the thing you're trying to get to is more easily achieved by doing it the way you described.

[00:44:12] Jeff: That's what happens with a lot of small companies. They start off focused on the consumer, good cause, and then they sell to larger companies. And then you've got stockholders, shareholders, and investors. And then you start trying to save pennies on various things, and the product quality just drastically goes down. It's really sad.

[00:44:29] Luke: Yeah. It's a funny thing I've noticed in this recession that we're in at the time of this recording, my wife pointed out to me and then I started noticing it, she started noticing that, the portions on just food we buy are getting smaller and smaller. She buys these little frozen meal.

[00:44:53] They're like a little jalapeno cheese thing. Delicious, probably full of seed oils, but whatever. They're good. Take a hit now and then for something that tastes tasty. And one day she opens them up. She's like, "Dude, I noticed we used to buy these, and there was a whole jalapeno in each little pod." And then it was a half of one. And now there's just little tiny minced up pieces of it. And I was like, "Wow. Really?" I know she's not lying. And she notices things like this.

[00:45:22] And then we get this really great ice cream called Alec's. I highly recommend, but if anyone from Alec's is listening, we're on to you. It's not raw milk, unfortunately, but it's A2 milk. It's regenerative farms. Checks all the boxes, all organic. If you're going to eat ice cream, it's the healthiest I've found, unless you made it yourself. And I've been noticing we get the matcha chocolate chip, and I like the chocolate chips.

[00:45:48] I'm always digging around to find those. And I was eating one two nights ago, and I was like, "There's three chocolate chips in this pint now." And there used to be every spoonful, you get a couple of chips. I'm like, "Wow, these companies are really--" for that reason.

[00:46:01] You've got shareholders and these companies are huge conglomerates owned by bigger conglomerates and multinational corporations and so on and so on. It's like then the little guy, the end user, us consumers are getting shafted, and we probably don't even know most of the time.

[00:46:17] Jeff: I call it shrinkflation because it's a lot easier to reduce what you're giving the consumer opposed to raise the price because that's going to be a lot more noticeable. So it's the same effect. It's inflation. They're just giving you less for the same amount opposed to raising the price.

[00:46:32] Luke: Right.

[00:46:32] In your process with the changes in the economy, do you fill yours up only halfway now?

[00:46:41] Jeff: No.

[00:46:42] Luke: Have you had to change your prices to adjust for what's happening?

[00:46:47] Jeff: We haven't. I saw all this coming. We only started this company three years ago, and this is after all that money printing. So I knew it was going to be happening. So we did put it at that 59-dollar price point. We probably would have put it at 49 otherwise, but I said, I'd rather keep it at 59 from the start opposed to having to keep raising it.

[00:47:08] So we felt comfortable that for at least five, six years, we're going to be able to keep it at that 59-d0llar price point. And one of the main costs has been the shipping. I think it's up about 40% in the last three, four years. So the shipping costs are just killer. But I factored all that into consideration before because I knew what was coming.

[00:47:27] Luke: You're right about shipping, man. It's funny. Every time I go to UPS, I'm shipping something this size, and they're like, "That'll be $48." And I'm like, "No, I want the slowest, cheapest." They're like, "That is the slowest cheapest." Oh my God, we're really in a mess. I want to let people know the show notes for this episode will be at lukestorey.com/zeolite. For those that don't know how to spell it, that is Z-E-O-L-I-T-E.

[00:47:53] And that'll, of course, be in the show description on your podcast apps. I'll also let you know right now, and probably again, if you want to check out some ZeoCharge, here's what you do. Go to lukestorey.com/zeocharge. And if you use the code LUKE, you'll get yourself 10% off.

[00:48:10] All right. So where do I want to go with this now? Let's talk size. Does size matter? I know that there are these nano products and liquid. There the ones that I took years ago that were like sand. There's yours, which is, I don't know, I'd classify it as a really fine powder, almost like chalky powder, no grit in it. What are people doing with size, and how did you settle on the particular particle size that you use?

[00:48:45] Jeff: Yeah. So one thing to note is the reason that a lot of them aren't that fine, it's just because the cost of manufacturing goes up quite a bit with the smaller particle sizes. So initially, when you started, there was only powders. That was the only thing on the market. Generally more of the grainy, larger particle sizes, new to development.

[00:49:04] Luke: It was also darker too. I think the brand I used was called HealthForce, I think was the name of the company.

[00:49:09] Jeff: Yeah. They've since been no longer around.

[00:49:12] Luke: Yeah. Their founder, I think passed away some years ago. Yeah, it was very dark. Much darker than yours. Yours is a light gray, not dissimilar to this t-shirt in fact. And that was really dark. And no shade to them, but it was really rough and gritty.

[00:49:29] Jeff: I like to tell people, always do the research yourself. Just go on Amazon. We're not on Amazon, but go on Amazon, buy a couple and then buy this, just open it up, and look at it. And I think just from there, you'll probably be like, "Okay, I want to take this one, ZeoCharge." And then feel it with your fingers. And you're going to say, "Yeah, definitely." And then when you taste it, that's going to confirm it for you. So I tell people just to do that sometimes if anyone ever complains about the cost.

[00:49:52] Luke: On that note, and don't let me forget to go back to size because I really want to cover that. It's important part of what creates the efficacy. But when I was giving it to my wife today and I was a little nervous if she would be bothered by the taste or consistency, I thought about, what if I mixed it in a Update energy drink or some juice or something? Can you use your zeolite with something that has a little flavor for people that don't like the nothingness flavor of it?

[00:50:20] Jeff: Yeah, I don't see any issues with it. Sometimes I'll mix it with a coconut milk beverage just because it really masks any chalkiness. Because if the chalkiness bothers people, then that's a good one. And I actually think it's just delicious. Just unsweetened coconut milk, put a little bit of natural sweetener in there with it.

[00:50:35] I think it just tastes like a milkshake, but most people might not share that opinion. I like it, but you can mix it with things. Some people even mix it with hot bone broth. So it's not heat sensitive. That's another thing. It can withstand thousands of degrees Fahrenheit. So it can even be baked in an oven.

[00:50:51] So you can try to experiment with baked goods. Or if you're making dog treats or something, mixing with peanut butter, that type of thing, it can be baked. Some people mix it with coffee. I've never been a coffee drinker, so I don't know, but a lot of people do that. If you want to ruin the taste of your coffee, go for it, I suppose. Some people, hot tea.

[00:51:11] Luke: That would not be my intuitive move.

[00:51:14] Jeff: For me, it's just mix it with water, get it over with. But some people enjoy the taste.

[00:51:18] Luke: In other words, it's not going to be less effective if it isn't just plain [Inaudible].

[00:51:24] Jeff: No, I don't think so. Smoothies, it should be fine. And that's actually another differentiation of zeolites to other binders. Other binders you have to take away from food because they're going to be binding to some of the nutrients in the food. Zeolite can be taken with food because it is the selective binder. So it's going to leave it. In the animal studies, it's always taken with food.

[00:51:44] Luke: Oh, okay. Right.

[00:51:44] Jeff: Because it's mixed in with the animal feed, and it still shows that not only does it deplete any serum nutrients, it actually improves nutrient status in the animals, even when taken with food.

[00:51:54] Luke: That's epic. That's really good to know because I take mine every night with water and whatever, but I can eat or drink anything. I don't care about taste if it's doing what it's supposed to do. But that's a cool idea. I think there's a lot of good experimentation there because this powder is very fluffy. So I could see how it would add bulk to something like some version of a smoothie or something like that. The consistency could actually work in your favor because it has that powdery fluffy volume that it creates.

[00:52:28] Jeff: I tell people just, however you can get it down, whatever's convenient, whatever you're going to do consistently, do that. If it's mixing it with some protein drink, or smoothie, yogurt, or whatever your daily routine is, just go for it. With food, away from food. And we could talk about best practices in a bit, but if we want to go back to the particle size before we forget that.

[00:52:49] Luke: Thank you for not letting me derail you because I'm very interested in that.

[00:52:53] Jeff: So initially you had just all of these larger particle size powders, and then you had the marketing companies starting to get involved with the zeolite industry saying, "Okay, we've got this new thing. Detox is going to be trending. Let's hop on here." And what they were doing was just buying that same zeolite powder and mixing fragments of it with water and calling it liquid zeolite.

[00:53:16] And they were referring to it as nano sized and all these things, cellular detoxes. It was literally just the powders mixed with water. And the reason you couldn't taste the powder is because there was nothing in it. So we're talking about less than one milligram per serving, and for reference, one scoop of this is 5,000 milligrams. So we're talking about nothing in it. So that was the initial liquid zeolite.

[00:53:38] Luke: Talking about someone making a lot of money.

[00:53:39] Jeff: And there was lawsuits because a lot of them were network marketing, and one, there was multi-million-dollar lawsuit because they tested it and even on the label, it was 2.5 milligrams, and there was less than 10% of that actual zeolite content in it.

[00:53:52] And there's just nothing in it. So a lot of placebo going on. It actually was causing detox effects, which I want to get into why that was happening besides the placebo potential effect. But anyway, that was the initial liquid zeolite movement-- nano, all this. Now since then, they actually have developed a process where they actually do make nano zeolite.

[00:54:14] Now, a lot of the companies that are still selling these liquid and nanos, they're literally just the powders mixed with water still. That's most of them. They're just calling themselves nano, but they're taking pretty low-quality powder, mixing with water, and they're not something I would recommend.

[00:54:29] Now the nanos are going to be in the nano range. So ZeoCharge is going to be a 0.5 micron to about 8 micron. Average, three, four micron type of thing, just in that range, where these nano companies, there's basically a competition where they were-- and some of the grainy ones, we're looking at 20, 30, 40 micron, maybe even some from 150 micron, a lot larger.

[00:54:52] Now, in terms of particle size, there's a few things to consider. One is surface area. So the smaller the zeolite particle, the more surface area there's going to be. So if you have an average particle size of one micron opposed to an average particle size of two microns, you're going to need probably about twice as much of the two micron one, because of the surface area.

[00:55:13] So the liquids, that was one concept, to try to reduce the surface area. But the problem is they reduced the particle size so much that they basically started destroying the zeolite cages. So a lot of them are referred to as the zeolite clinoptilolite fragments. So when they're at 2 nanometers, first of all, a lot of the toxic elements can't even fit in that cage.

[00:55:35] So now you have more of that adsorption capacity where it's binding to it, but maybe you have a toxic element that's 20 nanometers, it attaches to it, but then it drops it because it's only 2 nanometers. It can't fit in the cage, if there even is a cage. And it's different. It's hard tell what these nanos are.

[00:55:51] Now, there still is detox potential with the nanos. I think it's just a different mechanism. It's really less of a binder and almost more like a homeopathic type of thing where it's going to stimulate a detox response and stir things up, opposed to reducing stress as a traditional binder would.

[00:56:09] So I think at least the true nanos are nano. There's something to it. But there's really no research on nano zeolite as well, so that's one concern. There's concerns of, is that going to potentially be stored in the body because the body doesn't know how to process it? Not sure, but we don't really want anything in the super nano range for all those reasons.

[00:56:28] And also, the pore size, these cages, even though the zeolite particles are half a micron in our case, the diameter of the pore is going to be in the nano range. One particle, it's a half micron, has hundreds, maybe thousands of these pores that are going to be 10, 20 nanometers in size.

[00:56:48] So it's basically having a bunch of nano zeolite particles in the one particle. So it's interesting. Potentially, the particle size doesn't even matter as much once you get to a certain point, and it's just basically total binding capacity. And there's going to be different dosing strategies for different products as well.

[00:57:06] The problem I have with the liquids and the nanos in general is even if they're the best quality in the world, is that they're such low doses, you generally can't get the optimal dose. Because the two most important things with zeolite are quality and quantity. You need the right quality product, and you need to take it at the proper dose to get the best effects.

[00:57:24] So with the liquids, most of these are less than one milligram. Most of the nano and liquids are 300 micrograms per serving, and when we're looking at ZeoCharge, we're talking about 5,000 milligrams. So if you're doing six scoops, which is the starting dose on the ultimate zeolite experience, that's 30,000 milligrams. That's exactly 100,000 times 300 micrograms.

[00:57:47] Luke: Right.

[00:57:47] Jeff: Right. So it's one of our marketing pieces. It's just one of those things you can have the best quality product, but if you can't get it at the right dose, it's not an efficient detox. So maybe this should transition into the dosing.

[00:57:58] Luke: Well, let me tease this particular bit out a bit. Recently, I heard someone on the Crrow777 podcast, and they were talking about zeolite. And I don't know if it was someone from the company or just someone recommending it, but it's this brand called MasterPeace, like peace, as in war and peace.

[00:58:20] And they were talking about these. It's a liquid nano product that's suspended in something like Quinton water, sea plasma, basically. I knew about some of the things that you just talked about. I was very skeptical of the nano and the liquid zeolites already, even prior to you explaining it to me.

[00:58:40] But it was very compelling because they were talking about before and after testing that they'd done specifically on aluminum and were getting great results after people using it for three months. But what really got my attention was the ability of their product which they can show you provided the stuff they're showing on their website's legitimate. I have no reason to believe it's not. They sounded like heart-centered people, but was the graphene oxide, which, dude, we know it's in certain medications.

[00:59:12] Obviously it's so ridiculous that we can't even talk like adults and just say what it is, but people know. But I've seen evidence because I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist that there's graphene oxide in all kinds of stuff now, in our foods and beverages. And even some vitamin IV bags have been shown to have it.

[00:59:31] I don't know why exactly they're trying to get this stuff in our bodies, but it's not good. So looking at the before and after of like, Whoa, here's this person who has this many PPM of graphene oxide. They took this nanoproduct under the tongue a couple of times a day, and now it's negligible.

[00:59:50] Just so bizarre that we can't just speak like adults. It's crazy. But anyway, here we are. But that got my attention. So I ordered some, and I've been taking it and taking yours just based on their website and just like, "Whoa. Cool. I want my blood to look like that, not that." But the thing I'm wondering about, and I don't know if you have the part answer to this, but I've always been confused about when it comes to the size of zeolite, whether it's nano, and I don't know what size theirs is broken down to.

[01:00:22] It's also interesting. They put it in like a C plasma, like a Quinton water, which is cool. But is it getting into the bloodstream, and is it getting in and out of cells? And is it getting in and out of the brain? And I used to think of this idea, which I was so wrong and probably still am, but I thought the blood-brain barrier was some valve that opens up and closes.

[01:00:47] And then someone smarter explained it to me on a podcast. I think it might've been Jack Kruse, that, no, it's an electrical charge thing. It's a voltage-gated channel, not a mechanical, physical channel. Because a lot of products claim, "Oh, it passes the blood-brain barrier." And there's a lot of disputed ideas about what does that.

[01:01:11] So from that context, based on the size you've chosen, do we know if it's getting into your blood, or is it remaining in the gut? Do the smaller ones have the ability to get into the brain and so on and so on? What do you know about all that?

[01:01:25] Jeff: Yeah, no, great question. And MasterPeace, I will say, they're newer. They've been out for, I think, less than a year. I'd say basically the difference between them and the other nanos is going to be the marine plasma. They're putting it in as well, which I think is a nice addition. They also sell another version that's going to be a larger particle size powder as well.

[01:01:44] Luke: Oh yeah, I got some of that, and it has some humic fulvic blend in it.

[01:01:48] Jeff: They blend some stuff, which is fine.

[01:01:50] Luke: No shade on them. Like I said, I can eat just about anything. That one's pretty rough.

[01:01:55] Jeff: Is it?

[01:01:56] Luke: The powdered? Yeah, it's pretty rough.

[01:01:57] Jeff: Okay.

[01:01:58] Luke: Yeah. I can get it down, but I don't think your average person would be like, "Oh, this is nice." But like you said, you could mix it with juice or something like this. But anyway.

[01:02:06] Jeff: I like what they're doing. I like their philosophy. I like the company in general. The same challenges arise, I think, with their liquids, as all the other liquids. Now, I think the primary reason that they, along with all these other nano companies are producing these very, very small particles is because they're trying to get the zeolite to the brain to detox the various toxic elements that are in the brain.

[01:02:28] That's what at least most of them are claiming, is that these things are able to go in, offer a cellular full body, bloodstream, organ-level detox, and I haven't seen any proof anywhere that that's occurring. So what people assume is just based on a certain particle size, that's what's going to determine if something is going to cross the intestinal lining or the blood-brain barrier. But there's a lot more to it than just particle size.

[01:02:56] The body has the ability to reject or approve something, like safe passage basically. The body has the ability to reject certain nanoparticles in the gut from entering if it doesn't want it in there type of thing. Same with the brain. So we can't just say based on theory, well, this is 2 nanometers, so it's automatically going to be making it to the brain. So that's the first thing.

[01:03:15] I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does. One thing to consider is that most of these companies acknowledge these nano and liquid companies that the zeolite has to go through their normal digestive process to offer a full-body detox. So it goes into the mouth, through the esophagus, into the stomach, into the small intestine, where at that point it will be absorbed through the intestinal lining into the bloodstream, where it will then pass through the bloodstream and then go to the various organs and the brain, or wherever it's going to go.

[01:03:43] So considering that, and considering that we're talking about less than one milligram of zeolite here, potentially 100 micrograms or 300 micrograms, whatever it is, you would have to basically bypass the entire digestive process untouched for it to be able to absorb through the intestinal lining. And most of the toxicity is going to be in the digestive tract, So that's issue number one.

[01:04:06] Luke: Or you could do a rectal implant.

[01:04:08] Jeff: Right. You could do that too.

[01:04:11] Luke: Sorry. I always got to bring in the butt humor. Is there a possibility of something that small entering the bloodstream sublingually? If you held it under the tongue, could it bypass digestion and then get where it's going?

[01:04:25] Jeff: So that's a possibility in that if it is entering the brain or bloodstream, that's going to be how it's doing it. Because otherwise it's just very improbable that it's going to be able to pass through the digestive tract and then have leftover zeolite to actually make it through and then travel through the bloodstream and make it to an organ.

[01:04:40] So some of the companies are claiming that some of it, maybe 10% or so is going to be under the tongue sublingually absorbed. So I don't know. Once again, this is all speculation. Now, in terms of any zeolite, I haven't seen any evidence anywhere that any natural zeolite is able to go into the bloodstream.

[01:05:00] Right. So even ZeoCharge, it's unknown. Now, we can prove that it's able to reduce 15 different heavy metals from the tissue level. So it can offer full-body detox. But what we can't prove, is the zeolite actually going in there and removing it directly, or is it an indirect detox mechanism? I think it's indirect.

[01:05:18] So I think that's the most important thing to understand, that in order to detox the brain or organs, you don't have to have a chelator going into those places and directly removing things. And I don't think you want that to occur. I think what you want is for the body to naturally reject those things and push things out of the brain through the glymphatic system and just naturally removing things on its own.

[01:05:41] So whether the zeolite of any size is actually entering the bloodstream or not, it's unknown. When you think about it, if something was going to enter the bloodstream for a full-body detox, you'd have to take a very high dose. So basically binding everything on the way down and having leftover zeolite to then enter the bloodstream. So if anything's going to do it, it would probably be something like a high dose ZeoCharge. I don't know, but I don't think it has to.

[01:06:06] Luke: Well, that makes sense in line with what you were talking about earlier in the incremental clearing and opening of the detox pathways. If the wisdom of the body knows that it wants to remain in homeostasis, even if the zeolite is only getting into the gut and soaking up the nasties in there, then your body's like, "Oh, cool." It's safe to then release it from the brain and the other organs and so on.

[01:06:32] Jeff: I have a theory on three levels of detox. So basically I think there's three different ways that the body stores and processes metals and other toxic elements. So you've got level one. That's the processing center. So what your body's currently working on detoxing. So that's going to be what you were just exposed to, what we talked about earlier, the external exposure plus the internal production and whatever else, just all this stuff floating around, and that's the priority.

[01:06:56] Because the body has to do something with it, but if there's more toxicity there than what the body can handle, the body has to do something, and it's going to stuck it into what I consider level two. And that's going to be a general storage. That's what I would consider just general tissue, belly fat, the hands, just general fat throughout the body. I think that's a short-term storage area, which is more ideal than organs because the toxicants are not causing as much damage in general fat opposed to organ tissue.

[01:07:24] So if that area fills up, then the metals are going to be going to organs. They might go directly to organs. If you have amalgam fillings in your mouth, those metals are going straight to your brain. So I would consider organs basically level three storage, general fat-- level two, and then whatever your body's currently processing-- level one.

[01:07:41] So I think the difference in different detox methods is we're always trying to just go in and rip out levels two and three. But I think the key to an effective detox is actually removing level one toxicity and allowing the body to release that metals and toxins from level three and level two at its own pace, because now you have room.

[01:08:00] Because when you have all this circulating toxicity, this level one processing toxicity, which primarily is going to be in your gut, a lot of things that's taking up an enormous amount of energy and your body has a certain amount of energy that it can allocate towards detox. And it's probably a pretty good percentage of it.

[01:08:16] And I call that detox energy. So if you can bind to those things with a binder like a zeolite and you've just opened up, you've freed up that detox energy, now your body can utilize that energy to start working on brain stuff and general tissue stuff. But now there's room to receive it in level one.

[01:08:33] So if you go in, if you take a homeopathic, or some sort of push agent, which is traditional with detox, even saunas and things, they're mobilizing metals and toxins from tissue and organs, level two and three. They're coming into level one. And for people that are very sensitive, they generally get detox reactions because the level one toxicity wasn't addressed.

[01:08:53] If they were at full capacity or their stress threshold in level one and they've added toxicity to it, that's where you get a detox symptom. So it's a sign that the protocol, yes, it's working, but it's also a sign that your body says, this is more than I'm comfortable with, more than I'm used to in level one.

[01:09:08] So by removing level one, that actually destresses the body, and then the body can have room to receive more on its own. So they're opposite approaches. Most detoxes are pushing things from level three and two to level one. Zeolite, I call it catch and release, where you catch things that are in level one, and the body releases at its own pace.

[01:09:26] Luke: So cool. Makes perfect sense. I have subjective experience, and we can talk about dosing and stuff, which is really counterintuitive and interesting, but that makes sense to me because everything is about energy. Everything's about mitochondria. We're all learning that now.

[01:09:46] And I think oftentimes we think about the body's energy stores for lifting weights or doing a lot of intense thinking, but it's all of those backburner things like detox that I don't think we give enough credit to. It's like when your computer's going. You're in Word, or you're doing email. You have a program open.

[01:10:09] And so you're judging the performance on how that's going. But meanwhile, there's 10,000 other micro processes that are taking place at the same time. I think the body, not to minimize it to something as boring as a computer, but it seems that the body is going to choose where to put energy.

[01:10:26] Jeff: And that's why detox is so interesting, because some things the body has to deal with immediately and some things the body has a built-in storage unit where it can deal with it later, and those are going to be various toxicants. Because we have fat. The body can choose to take those toxic elements coming in and just put them into storage and say, I'm going to deal with them later because it has to focus on more immediate threats.

[01:10:50] So that's why a lot of times people develop these chronic toxicity issues, because their body just continues just, I'm going to deal with it later. I'll deal with it later. And it never gets around to it. So one thing I find interesting is that anyone with a complex chronic illness, any long-term illness, they're going to have high, organ levels of heavy metals intoxicants, no matter what.

[01:11:13] But most people assume that it's the metals intoxicants that are causing their chronic illness, which may be the case, but it's also possible that the toxicity, this buildup of metals intoxicants is a result of the chronic illness. Because if your body was focusing for 20 years on this autoimmune condition or this cancer that's using up all of your energy, all the toxicants coming in, your body, just puts it straight into storage because it doesn't have the capacity to deal with it. So a lot of times the buildup of heavy metals and toxic elements are just a result of an underlying cause. But now these things are also contributing to that condition. So they might be the result, they might be the cause, or they might be a little bit of both. It's just interesting.

[01:11:53] Luke: Yeah. At a certain point of dis ease, there's just a negative feedback loop where you don't know-- I can't tell the beginning from the end. Well, that's a good point to get into the dosing, which is really fascinating to me the way you've framed this because I think at first I got a couple of jars of your stuff and went through it fairly quickly.

[01:12:18] And then I was like, okay, I need the, whatever, the big ass one. There's a box of them over there. But I was going through it really quick. So I started listening-- I think I listened to your episode on Mitolife Radio. I think that's how I found you, is through Matt Blackburn to begin with. And he and I share a lot of the same passions and also just discernment in terms of wanting to find the best of the best, and we're willing to try weird stuff to see what works.

[01:12:44] But unlike other supplement regimens and things like that, where you want to start slow, less is more, go easy, see how your body acclimates, what I've found, and I've heard you talk about is with zeolite, what you recommend is the opposite where you're starting ae super crazy high doses and then working your way down from there, which is interesting. So explain that in the context of how we're talking about these detox pathways opening and your body getting the energy to deal with it and all that.

[01:13:21] Jeff: Absolutely. And that's really the most important thing with zeolite. After you have the good quality, it's about the quantity, the dosing. And most things, like you said, you want to start slow, work your way up. Titrate up low and slow, especially if someone has a complex illness or more sensitive. But with zeolite, with those individuals, it's especially important for them to start high and work down.

[01:13:43] So you titrate down. It's the opposite. And basically the lower dose, micro doses, or super low doses of zeolite are more likely to cause detox reactions than higher doses. So that's of the theory. And I've got a long document explaining it on the website, but the theory is 10 milligrams of zeolite is more likely to cause a detox reaction than 10,000 milligrams. Because it offers a more effective and efficient detox and it's gentler on the body.

[01:14:11] So basically two things can happen when you're taking zeolite. It can either add stress to your body or it reduces stress on your body. You're going to have opposite effects. So if you take a low dose, and this is often what happens with the liquids and even low dose ZeoCharge, it's because a lot of people will mix a scoop with water and just take a sip to try it out.

[01:14:32] And then they get headaches, joint aches, and all this stuff. The next day they'll take the full glass, no symptoms at all. It's not that the lower dose was working better, it's that it was less efficient. So you take a low dose, it goes in, it stirs things up. There's so many different reactions that can occur when you're detoxing and when you're taking something like zeolite.

[01:14:48] You have biofilm disruption. You've got all this stuff. It makes a mess. I like to say zeolite makes a mess. And if you didn't take enough, your body now has to deal with that mess on its own. So it's almost like an anti binder. It's the opposite of a binder. Because the point of a binder is to reduce stress on your body or to mitigate stress from another detox protocol.

[01:15:06] But if you're taking too low of a dose, it's actually adding more stress than it's reducing. Now, if you take a higher dose it still goes in there, makes a mess, stirs things up, but there's enough available zeolite cages present to clean up the mess it makes.

[01:15:20] So basically it makes a mess, and it cleans up its own mess, opposed to taking a super low dose where it makes a mess and leaves your body to deal with that mess. And then the whole cascade of reactions that occur from that are going to be the opposite. If you take a low dose and it makes a mess, it adds stress to your body, that's going to result in an increased rate of free radicals, increased histamine reaction, increased detox reactions.

[01:15:41] You take a higher dose, it could decrease histamine, decrease free radical production, improve nutrient status. The low dose could deplete nutrient status. So there's all these different things. So it's really all about the doses. It's interesting. It's important though.

[01:15:55] Luke: How do you think it affects digestion and elimination? I know in the past for myself and many other people working with bentonite clay or charcoal and things like that can constipate you. And no matter how much I take of your product, I've never noticed that. And I was actually listening to your podcast on my friend, Freddie Kimmel's show, Beautifully Broken. I was listening to that this morning.

[01:16:21] He was like, "Yeah, it's been great for elimination." I thought, "Yeah, that's pretty weird." But again, not to talk about gross stuff, but I took note and I was like, "Wow." I've actually been quite regular in that department, like morning when it's supposed to happen.

[01:16:36] And that historically has been one of my weaker spots in terms of health and something I've had to work on and monitor more. Are Freddie and I unique in the great bowel movement regularity, or is that something that's common for people?

[01:16:51] Jeff: It's common. That's actually one of the main reasons people continue taking it long term, ZeoCharge, is because it regulates their digestive system. A lot of people that have been dealing with chronic constipation, it just helps regulate things. And inversely, people that are dealing with diarrhea, it often helps us firm things up as well. So it can modulate the digestive system.

[01:17:10] So interestingly, the lower dose is actually more likely to cause constipation for someone that's prone to constipation than the higher dose. So it's less about the actual powder itself going in, and it's more about the reaction of how your body's responding to it. So I like to call it the net effect.

[01:17:31] So if you take a little bit and it goes and stresses out the body and your immune system is stimulated to attack these microbes released from biofilms, etc., you have an inflammatory response, now you potentially have constipation. Where you took a higher dose, none of that stuff happens, and it lowers the inflammation in your body. And it helps keep things regular. So it's just opposite approaches. That's why it's so interesting.

[01:17:54] People can have opposite approaches to the same product, and it's just all based on how you're responding. And that's primarily determined by dose. But about, I'd say 80 to 90% of people that notice something digestively, it's going to be more of a loosening effect.

[01:18:09] Luke: Another counterintuitive thing because I would think about it like a clay where it's going to actually stop you up. It's just interesting that it doesn't work like that.

[01:18:18] Jeff: Another one of the reasons, you can't really apply this higher dose theory to other binders or chelators, one, because they're potentially depleting essential nutrients, and they're usually just the more you take the more stress it adds to your body. Although the net effect is still often positive with those other things, especially short-term.

[01:18:33] But a lot of those things like the charcoals and the clays are just very constipating. So a lot of times you just can't take enough to get that therapeutic dose. Whereas ZeoCharge just doesn't seem to have the issues these other binders have. So yeah, you can take higher doses, and it seems like a lot of times the more you take, the more you go to the bathroom.

[01:18:50] When I did the full jar a day, the 150 grams a day for 10 days, and I'm not recommending anyone do that, it's very uncomfortable. Just too much. That was just a lot of water. But I went to the bathroom four times that day. It's just a lot. Maybe because I had to-- I don't know. It's interesting, but yeah, some people do notice some level of constipation. But they're the minority.

[01:19:10] A lot of people that take one scoop, two scoop, get constipated. They go to six scoops, and it relieves the constipation. It's a scary thing because it's the opposite of what you think, intuitively, but it's just the higher dose, generally speaking, is much less likely to cause any detox reaction. That includes digestive, that includes headaches, irritability, joint pain, or whatever you're prone to.

[01:19:34] Luke: Well, I'll tell you what, if I owned a supplement company, I would be stoked if it worked better the more you took.

[01:19:40] Jeff: Right. I know. And that's the argument people say, "Oh, you're trying to sell more product and all this stuff." That's why I don't tell people they have to continue taking these high doses for a long time, and it does take some trial and error, but I say start high and then you work your way down.

[01:19:58] Because you can't really generally, if you're doing six scoops, take too much, but you can take too little. If you're taking too much, you're basically just wasting some product. You're flushing it down the toilet. If you're taking too little, it's potentially a stressful detox situation. And then you might have to pulse on and off of the product, like other detoxes.

[01:20:18] Luke: Run me through the protocol. I know when I bought this last big ass box, it's for a number of months, and you start with a certain number of scoops and you titrate down. What's that? I forget what it's called. What's that program called, and how does that work? I should be following it, but I don't know. I lost the instructions. I've just been winging it.

[01:20:36] But I really would like to do it right. I want to each month go down and complete that thing and then just get on a maintenance dose. So that's my goal. So how does that work for people?

[01:20:48] Jeff: Yeah, it's called the ultimate zeolite experience. It's a five-month protocol, and it's 20 total jars of ZeoCharge and you start high and work down. So it's just based on the dosing paradox. So the first month you're doing six scoops of ZeoCharge per day, once per day. The second month you're doing five scoops per day, then four, then three, then two.

[01:21:07] So you go through six jars the first month, then five jars, then four, then three, then two. And the concept is the healthier you become, the less you need. And as you peel off layers of toxicity, you're not going to need as much. This is especially great for people that aren't doing that monthly testing to determine if the protocol is working.

[01:21:23] Because there's, I like to call it a binding dose and a detox dose. So some people could, in theory, be taking a half scoop or a scoop of the ZeoCharge and be taking it for six months. And potentially it's only enough to bind, but it's not enough to get your body comfortable to release the deeply stored metals.

[01:21:40] So you might be on that binding dose, not the detox dose. We found that on six scoops, it's basically going to be a detox dose for everybody. Because some people, in the case studies program, even on two scoops, they were feeling better. Their nutrient status was improving, their metals were lowering. It was working, but it wasn't getting to that next level organ-level detox. And when we moved them to that four to six scoop mark, it worked for everybody. So a safeguard.

[01:22:05] Luke: Basically I just need to set an alarm on my calendar, like for the of every month and then start. Because I think I've pretty much been doing four to six scoops every night for quite a while.

[01:22:15] Jeff: And I take six. I still take six scoops just every night. It's just the financial aspect. That's why you work down and you don't just stay on six. Because then you're going through six jars a month.

[01:22:25] Luke: How much is that program right now?

[01:22:27] Jeff: So that's 999.

[01:22:30] Luke: Okay.

[01:22:30] Jeff: And then you use code LUKE, that gives you 100 bucks off. 899 over five months. So it's less than 200 bucks for a five-month protocol, something that's been shown to reduce tissue levels of heavy metals, of all 15 heavy metals.

[01:22:43] Luke: I know to some of us that's a lot of money, but those of us that have done functional medicine work, you get some labs done and then they write you a prescription, and all of a sudden that's $1,200 for one month. It really adds up. I know I've spent some serious money attempting to achieve the results that people are getting from your product.

[01:23:08] So to me, it's like a no brainer, but depending on someone's financial situation, it's like getting one jar is better than getting no jars. But I'm excited to actually follow the real deal and just of ignore the testing piece. I've been working with our mutual friend Matt-- is it Hoffman or Kaufman?

[01:23:31] Jeff: Kaufman.

[01:23:31] Luke: Kaufman. Sorry. I just had a brain fart. Who is in Florida. God bless. Hope he's okay right now. But I've been doing this mineral balancing program with him, and it's so bizarre to look at the lab test and see their highs. You're like, "Oh, shit. Let me start doing this stuff." And then they go higher because your body's off on all that stuff we talked about. But I'm excited to commit to his mineral balancing program and then add in the titration of going on lower and lower doses of the ZeoCharge. I'm going to do it. I'm committing to myself and to everyone listening right now.

[01:24:07] Jeff: All right.

[01:24:08] Luke: Tell me what else is there that we need to know about zeolite? Oh, you know what I was curious about is the negatively charged molecules, positively charged molecules, etc. So we've talked about heavy metals. I mentioned in a different context, graphene oxide. People are learning now, thankfully, about glyphosate and atrazine. Guys, we got plastic in our balls.

[01:24:35] We're so toxic. So if we're strategically opening up those three levels of detox that you described, opening up these pathways, and doing the cleanup as we go, giving the body permission to start to get it out of the organs and stuff. Does the zeolite have the capacity to cage all of that nasty stuff? Or is there anything that it doesn't have an affinity toward?

[01:24:58] Jeff: Yeah. Some companies will tell you it just binds to everything. It hasn't been studied for every single thing, so we don't know. There's really two ways it works. One is through direct binding capacity, and two through the natural detox processes that it helps enable through binding what it does bind to.

[01:25:14] So it has been shown to bind to quite a few things, which is the good news, so BPA, glyphosate, heavy metals, and we can show it. Removes the 15 heavy metals. Mycotoxins, that's a big one. It's been shown. It's been used commercially, industrially for radioactive materials.

[01:25:31] Histamine binds to excess histamine. It binds to ammonia, urea, some of the metabolic waste products, free radicals even. So all these different things directly, but I think even more importantly than what it's directly binding to is that it's able to reduce the stress load on the body enough where the body can reject everything else that it doesn't bind to.

[01:25:51] So interestingly, a lot of people have been reporting lately basically releasing trapped emotions when they're taking ZeoCharge. The zeolite is not going in and binding to the frequency of the emotion, I don't think. But I think as they're removing a lot of this toxic elements, their body has more energy to start processing some of these other stored things, including trapped emotions.

[01:26:14] So people that have a high toxic level often also have high levels of trapped emotions. I think it's just because the body just goes back to that detox energy. And I think people that have a difficult time processing some of those emotions, especially if they've got liver dysfunction and other things where they're not processing metals, things just get stored.

[01:26:31] So it's just interesting. And that's a concept in detox anyway, a retracement. The concept of as you start detoxing, you start experiencing some past traumas, and these different layers of toxicity basically coming to the surface before they leave. So it's interesting. So I think even to some extent, helping release some of the trapped emotions that can help with even with zero direct binding capacity.

[01:26:54] So I think that's really the best benefit because ultimately when it comes to detox, you want your body to be doing the majority of the work for you. That's what your body is always detoxing. It's got your natural detox capacity. The goal is to raise your detox energy enough that it can deal with everything coming in and have extra energy to deal with the stuff that is stored.

[01:27:14] So you can ultimately start getting everything out. And I think that's why ZeoCharge is so effective. Detox symptoms are interesting because that's a good topic. We can talk about just detox reactions. Because there's different types of detox reactions.

[01:27:28] Luke: Most of the time we don't even know that's what it is. When I was going really hard on the mineral balancing, I was waking up feeling like I had a hangover, just a pressure in the front of the dome and just foggy. I'm like, "What the hell? This feels like a hangover." And then I moved through it and got to a different phase and then it went away.

[01:27:51] But that would be something maybe someone's thinking, "Oh, I just slept like shit or eat something weird." And if you're like me and you track your sleep, like, "Well, I know I slept great. I didn't eat anything weird yesterday." It's like, "Where the hell is this feeling coming from?" And it's just the ambiguity of those reactions. So what can they look like for people?

[01:28:13] Jeff: Yeah. There's different types. Some are good, some are bad, and they can get confused, and it depends also on the method of detox. Because most methods of detox are by design stressing out your body with the intent that the short-term stress on the body is going to be worth it because you're removing toxic elements from the body.

[01:28:29] Because you're removing stuff from organs and tissue, bringing it into level one processing, that becomes stressful. Your body can't handle it. You get symptoms, but you still flush out most of the stuff, and it's good. With ZeoCharge, a lot of times you're able to reduce a lot of the detox effects because you're just removing what's in level one and then the body is slowly releasing at its own pace.

[01:28:48] So it's a little bit different. So some of the negative detox reactions that you don't want are going to be like redistribution of heavy metals. So let's say you take a micro dose of zeolite, a liquid zeolite or just a sip of ZeoCharge and you get a terrible reaction. You get headaches, joint pain, whatever you might get, and you think, this is fantastic. This means it's working. That's going to be the general consensus. That's what your practitioner tells you.

[01:29:12] But then you take 100 times that dose. Let's say you took a sip of ZeoCharge and then you took the full glass, and you get no reactions. The higher dose, the full glass was a more efficient detox. So in that situation, the detox reaction was not a good thing because it was just a sign that there was unnecessary stress being added to your system.

[01:29:33] Whereas you could have gotten the same detox or a more efficient detox without the reaction. So that could be because some are redistributing or just unnecessary stress. So that's what you want to avoid. So not all detox reactions are going to be a good thing. That's one thing to consider. That's why you can experiment with dosing.

[01:29:48] Now, some things, especially like microbial challenges, if you're breaking up biofilms and you're releasing parasites, yeast and various things, and your immune system has been stimulated to attack them because they came out of hiding, a lot of times, those detox reactions are going to be unavoidable.

[01:30:06] You can still mitigate them to some extent because the ZeoCharge is going to be binding to some of the waste products of those microbes. It's like the lipopolysaccharides and ammonia and things, which can be helpful, but sometimes those can't be completely avoided. So those are going to be okay because it's not necessarily redistributing a metal.

[01:30:24] With a low dose zeolite, you might actually be stirring stuff up. Like that swap mechanism I mentioned, the magnesium grabs the mercury. The mercury trades it for lead. Now the mercury finds a new home, and that's not good. If you took a higher dose, that doesn't happen. That's not a good symptom.

[01:30:39] If you're exposing microbes to the system, you're expelling parasites, and you're getting diarrhea, that's a good detox reaction. If you're experiencing past trauma, and having dreams of things, that's probably a good thing because you're bringing it to the surface. So sometimes it is tricky to discern the types of detox reactions.

[01:30:57] But you want to minimize them or mitigate them as much as possible, but sometimes they're going to be unavoidable. So some people think, I'm taking six scoops of ZeoCharge. I'm still getting some reactions. Am I doing something wrong? It's not necessarily that you're doing something wrong. It's just that sometimes you can avoid them.

[01:31:15] And that's one caveat I'll mention to the detox, the higher dose, is that if your issue, your symptoms are primarily being caused from parasites and fungus, opposed to metals, sometimes the higher doses will accelerate the reactions because you're accelerating the release of those microbes.

[01:31:35] Let's say you're taking two scoops and you get some headache. You take four scoops and the headache is worse, your issues are probably more microbial in nature opposed to toxicants and metals. If you're taking two scoops and then you go to one scoop and you feel way worse, maybe it's the opposite.

[01:31:53] So it takes a little bit of trial and error, but detox reactions are really misunderstood because you've got Herx reactions. That's what I should have said. Herx reactions are unavoidable. That's when you have microbial die off. The redistribution aspect, I think, can be avoided, or mitigated.

[01:32:09] So if you're doing mineral balancing, homeopathy, or sauna, and you're getting terrible symptoms after those things, it's because you're pushing things out of organs and tissue, which is fantastic, but there's a lot in level one that your body can't handle, then you can take the zeolite or some other binder to help mitigate that stress.

[01:32:28] So the goal is, stress out the body, mitigate that stressor. With ZeoCharge, you mitigate the stress first, and then your body adds stress because it can handle more, because the stress threshold has been raised. So for usage, if you're using zeolite as the primary detox agent, that's when I recommend just once per day. That's all you need. Just one high dose per day and then your body naturally can release at its own pace throughout the day, and generally you can avoid the symptoms.

[01:32:53] If you're combining it, which a lot of people are, with other detox methodologies like mineral balancing or whatever they're doing, then it's probably better to split the dose and take it more as a traditional binder. So that's the push-catch approach. You push something out, you catch it with the binder. If you take zeolite on its own, it's catch and release. You catch what's currently there, and then your body releases at its own pace.

[01:33:16] So six scoops once per day for sensitive people on its own. But if you're doing mineral balancing and taking supplements three times a day, maybe do two scoops 30 minutes after your mineral balancing each time. Two scoops, three times a day.

[01:33:29] Luke: Bingo. That makes a lot of sense. Wow, God, this shit gets complex. World is over here trying to live her best life. We live in such a complicated world. And sometimes I wonder, man, what was it like when you just had to go catch a deer and sit by the fire? We like to create these false ideals.

[01:33:49] I'm sure there are struggles for all humans in all ages, but man, it's like, nowadays, just to be at baseline vitality, health, longevity, happiness, for some of us, it takes a lot of work. Maybe not so much when you're younger, but I've noticed as I age, it's like, well, if I don't do all this stuff, I definitely notice a difference in quality of life. Well, thank God there's solutions. We're going to end on a good note, at least. Let's talk about things like inflammation immunity.

[01:34:20] Jeff: Yeah. So I think that the number one benefit of ZeoCharge is actually immune regulation more than detox. I think that's the primary benefit of it. And then detox comes as a result of the immune regulation. Because when you have an overstimulated immune system to these toxic elements that you're exposed to daily, that's putting your body in a state of chronic inflammation. Because immune activation equals an inflammatory response.

[01:34:49] So if you can calm the immune system down, if you can bind to these immune stimulants, I like to say it calms the storm in the body, ZeoCharge. It calms things down. That in return lowers the inflammatory load and then you start feeling better. So it's interesting.

[01:35:06] Luke: That makes perfect sense.

[01:35:07] Jeff: I really think one of the main benefits, is immune regulation. And even in the literature, they talk about the immunomodulatory effects of the zeolite, and there's different speculations of why it is. And some of it is it actually has been shown to bind directly to things like various viral particles and things that are potentially stimulating immune responses.

[01:35:28] But I think just whatever it's binding to-- that's the nice thing about it. Everyone has something that it can bind to. Even if you're living in a pristine environment and you're not exposed to these external sources of stressors, your body is still a toxin factory. It's still naturally producing toxins every day. And just by binding those things, it's just helping destress the body, and then your body can use that energy for whatever it wants to use it on.

[01:35:54] Luke: Epic. What about gut health? You talked about biofilms. Can you explain what biofilms are to people and how that affects our gut toxicity and how zeolites impact the biofilm?

[01:36:09] Jeff: Yeah. So I just like to look at them as toxic clusters, because there's usually microbes and all sorts of toxic elements enclosed. But basically, the bacteria and these microbes will develop this protective coating, these biofilms that protects them from the immune system. So when you think about antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria, it's basically these biofilms that have developed over the bacteria that have basically made them immune from the immune system.

[01:36:35] So you could even take antibiotics and things that are not killing the bacteria because they're hidden or protected from the biofilm, So when you disrupt the biofilm, you can take enzymes, or you can take even things like silver. Whatever can break down a biofilm can be helpful because, one, they're exposed.

[01:36:54] So they're hidden from the immune system when they're in the biofilm, when the biofilm was broken, they're exposed to the immune system. So with zeolite, however it's breaking it down-- there's so many things in biofilms. I don't know exactly what it's binding to, but it's removing something and then the body is able to naturally start going after things.

[01:37:10] And that's one of the unavoidable detox reactions that sometimes occur, because if you have all these microbes being released from the biofilm, your immune system is now going into action. That could result in immune response resulting in inflammation, but taking that higher dose, once again, a lot of times mitigates it because from those reactions, when you have immune response inflammation, you get increased histamine. You get increased free radicals. You get all this stuff, but the zeolite is helping to bind to all of those byproducts of the immune response. So that's why it's so interesting. It's like constantly just cleaning up the mess that it's making as it's detoxing.

[01:37:43] Luke: So cool. What about weight loss? Are there any--

[01:37:47] Jeff: Yeah. Weight loss is huge.

[01:37:47] Luke: [Inaudible] that it could be helpful?

[01:37:49] Jeff: Yeah. So for weight loss, anyone that's on a weight loss journey, I think detox is a crucial component of it. Because one, you have to consider why do you have the excess weight? A lot of times people might know why, but if you have that stubborn last 15, 20, 30 pounds, whatever it is, it might be because your body is keeping that fat as a protective mechanism because your body would prefer to keep the toxins in general fat, belly fat, opposed to organs.

[01:38:17] So a lot of people that are very thin actually have higher levels of organ metals and toxicants because they have less of a storage unit in general fat. So sometimes your body won't let you-- not saying it's good to necessarily have a bunch of fat, but sometimes it's protective because if you have the metals in general fat, it's generally at least short term, not causing you a lot of problems. If it's in organs, it's deteriorating the organs type of thing.

[01:38:42] So when you're losing weight, you want to be on some binding protocol to help attack, to grab onto some of these toxic elements as they're being released from the fat. And sometimes if you can't lose weight, it's because your body won't let you let go of the fat because it intuitively doesn't want to because it would then poison you basically. So if you bind and reduce some of these tissue levels of toxicity, then your body might say, "You know what? I don't need this excess fat anymore because its purpose is no longer needed."

[01:39:13] Luke: Totally makes sense. I'm sure many overweight people that have spent a lot of time in the treadmill and not seeing any results can relate to that.

[01:39:21] Jeff: I think there's a huge correlation between obesity and toxicity. We're more obese than ever and more toxic than ever, but it makes sense that the more toxic you become, the more fat your body is going to start storing to protect you, to protect your vital organs.

[01:39:37] Luke: Are there any people that would be ill advised against using zeolite?

[01:39:45] Jeff: I would say in general just know that it is a detox product, and anytime you're going to be going on a detox protocol, you just have to know that there's really not a good way to know exactly what's going to happen. There's no way to know for sure, is it going to cause stress on the body? Is it going to reduce stress on the body?

[01:40:03] Am I going to experience detox reactions? Am I not going to experience detox reactions? It's very difficult to know. So just maybe start these things on a day where you're not working or something. Now, with ZeoCharge, it has been in my experience the most gentle by far detox method there is. So the people that, I think, benefit from it the most are people that haven't been able to detox before because they've been considered too sick to detox. Because in those individuals, they're at max capacity.

[01:40:32] They're basically experiencing detox reactions every day without even taking supplements because they're overburdened in level one. So if they try to do some of these other methods, whether it be chelation or homeopathy, mineral balancing, a lot of times it causes such severe reactions because your body can't handle that additional stress load.

[01:40:48] They generally do the best because they can actually tolerate it. For the first time in their life, they can tolerate detox because it's destressing them first and then their body can work at their own pace. Not that they're necessarily benefiting more than everyone else. My heart goes out to those people because it's really for them sometimes the only thing that works because they have to do that catch and release technique opposed to the push-catch.

[01:41:11] But those people and everyone else it's just one of those things just know that when you detox things get stirred up, and you just don't know what's going to happen. Be prepared to potentially experience some reactions and monitor things and experiment with the dose and just figure things out. But in terms of contraindications, generally, there's not really any to my knowledge.

[01:41:30] Luke: What about pregnant ladies?

[01:41:33] Jeff: Oh yeah. You have the good one. Thanks for bringing that up. So yeah, don't take it if you're pregnant. Don't take it if you're pregnant.

[01:41:39] Luke: What about pregnant men?

[01:41:41] Jeff: Well, it was probably just won't even leave-- no comment on that one.

[01:41:46] Luke: I remember when that emoji came up on the iPhone. I'm just like, "Wow. Okay."

[01:41:50] Jeff: Going back to that though, there are a lot of people saying it's perfectly safe and effective to take it during pregnancy, doing all this, and it's because most of the information on zeolite is being provided by people that are selling the product, whether it's network marketing or something else, and they're really not that knowledgeable on it, and they think, oh, it's got this cage, so it can do no harm.

[01:42:12] And literally there's tons of people online saying that it's impossible to cause detox reactions, and it can't do any harm. And they're then saying, "Therefore, it's perfectly safe during pregnancy. Go ahead and take it." Those are just ignorant statements. So just be aware of those things because there hasn't been clinical research done on zeolite in pregnancy, so we just can't make those claims, and we can't make assumptions. And your body, once again, is ultimately in control. We don't know what's going to be happening. If you're pregnant, it's probably not the time to be detoxing.

[01:42:42] Luke: Sounds like it could be a good idea to do the full meal deal prior to conception.

[01:42:48] Jeff: Yeah. Prior to conception, probably an absolute fantastic idea because you want to reduce your toxic load as much as possible so you're not passing things on.

[01:42:56] Luke: Yeah. Makes sense. All right, guys, you can go to lukestorey.com/zeocharge. I highly recommend. Super cool. Once I figured out the dosing, I was waking up not feeling hungover and feeling refreshed. I'm super into it. Last question for you is this one. It's a three-parter. Who have been three teachers or teachings that have influenced your life and made you who you are?

[01:43:22] Jeff: That's a good one. I'll go with three teachings from the Bible.

[01:43:27] Luke: Epic.

[01:43:28] Jeff: All right. So I'll go with number one.

[01:43:29] Luke: I just started reading the Bible for the first time in my life. Yeah.

[01:43:32] Jeff: Good. Last few years--

[01:43:34] Luke: Sort of a language barrier. The thee, thou.

[01:43:37] Jeff: Are you reading the King James?

[01:43:39] Luke: Which one do I have?

[01:43:41] Jeff: If it's the thee, thou, that's probably what it is.

[01:43:42] Luke: Yeah, I forget.

[01:43:43] Jeff: I grew up on that, and then I've been reading the English standard version of [Inaudible].

[01:43:47] Luke: I'll read a passage with my wife and then we'll translate it into modern language to try to get the gist of it, but it's been fun.

[01:43:57] Jeff: Yeah. I've been reading through the Bible once a year for the last three, four years, just a little bit each day, getting through it. So it is interesting. But anyway, it's one of those things. There's a lot to learn in there.

[01:44:07] Luke: I think the one I have says EVS. Does that ring a bell?

[01:44:13] Jeff: Not ESV?

[01:44:14] Luke: Yeah, that.

[01:44:15] Jeff: ESV.

[01:44:15] Luke: Yeah. What does that

[01:44:16] Jeff: I guess English standard version. I think that's what I'm reading now.

[01:44:19] Luke: I'll show it to you. It's really beautiful. It's like leather brown. It's quite nice.

[01:44:23] Jeff: Yeah. There's a lot of different versions. One thing is if you're reading the King James or the thees and thous, you basically have to learn a new language to understand it. So I was living in like Detroit for a while, and these people in the ghetto are not going to read that version. That's when I switched over. Not to say that those aren't the best versions. Maybe some of those are the best-ish. Anyway, that's not the point.

[01:44:44] So three points from the Bible, three lessons. I guess one would be the concept of giving and receiving. What you sow you reap, and just the joy of giving. That's one thing that my mom taught me early on, is just the joy in giving. And especially when you're not feeling good, then take the focus off of yourself and put it on someone else.

[01:45:03] Go do something for someone else. And that ultimately is going to benefit you as well. And I think it's more blessed to give than to receive. Just that principle we see in life, not just financially, but in all categories, what we give out definitely comes back to us. So just being on the give and just looking for opportunities to actively give, and it always makes me feel better, at least when I do something for other people.

[01:45:25] And I've seen that thing true in my life. So that teaching, that concept of the joy of giving, more blessed to give than to receive, that'd be one. Number two would be love unconditionally. I think that's a main theme in Christianity. And through the Bible, it's just, at least in the New Testament, unconditional love.

[01:45:44] And that's always a good one because it helps. We just don't understand everything about everyone. We don't know what people are going through. So it goes in line with not judging others as well, the unconditional love. But we just don't know why people do what they do.

[01:46:04] So we just have to love them. Now, I will say that's not to be confused with unconditional tolerance or acceptance. So if I have my best friend that has a destructive drug habit, I will unconditionally love him. I'm not going to love him less for that, but I'm not just going to say, "Well, this is who he is now. I'm going to unconditionally accept him or tolerate him because of that. That's just who he is."

[01:46:27] So it's interesting. Sometimes that's a fake version of love because when you think about it, true love is what motivates change. When you love someone, that's what motivates them to change. But if you just tolerate or accept them, it's the opposite. It keeps them exactly where they are because it says you don't have to change. So anyway, that's a whole thing.

[01:46:47] Luke: Beautiful. I agree 100%. I've looked at that principle a lot and applied it a lot I think recently around the idea of boundaries. It's like I'm just a peace-loving person. It's very easy for me to accept people for who they are because I was a train wreck for a lot of my life. So when someone else is a train wreck, I got a soft spot for that.

[01:47:14] But it's been many hard lessons to not just blindly put up with shit that I shouldn't be-- it's not actually loving to allow someone to operate in dysfunction and to co-sign it and enable them. Loving them unconditionally sometimes means that you have to create a boundary with someone or communicate a hard truth to them or something of that nature. And it seems harsh at times, but ultimately is a more loving act.

[01:47:41] Jeff: Yeah. I find it so interesting where you have true love, which I think is this unconditional love, but then you have something that looks almost the same, but it's just a counterfeit like from the enemy. It comes in, and it's like, this is true love, but really it's just a destructive habit where you're not motivating change.

[01:48:01] Yeah. It's an interesting one for people to consider. When I first thought of it, I'm like, "Whoa." So unconditional love, that's two. Number one was a give and receive. Number three, let's go with forgiveness. That's always a good one. Just the principle of just forgive people. Once you realize I'm Christian, I've been forgiven by the stripes of Jesus Christ, then I could forgive anyone else type of thing. And some people I think have a more difficult time forgiving.

[01:48:33] There's different longitudes. For me, it's been a little bit easier maybe because early on my mom-- I credit my mom and my dad for just training me a lot of these principles early on, which is great. But it's just the times where I've had harbored a little bit of unforgiveness.

[01:48:47] It's not doing anyone any good. I've heard it said that when you're not forgiving someone else, it's like drinking poison yourself and hoping they die. It's not hurting the other person really. It's hurting you most. And then you get even the physics of it. The emotions of unforgiveness that can actually literally get trapped in your body and cause all sorts of issues and all sorts of things. So just forgive realizing that you have been forgiven. You're not perfect, and therefore you can forgive others no matter what it is, and you just give people second chances, third chances, and four--

[01:49:20] Luke: I actually yesterday spent a couple of hours writing about forgiveness. So it's something I'm really exploring. And one of the things I had to really work on for a long time was resentment. I was very resentful toward people. And someone, I forget who it was, but someone broke down the word resentment, and essentially it means to re-feel something.

[01:49:42] And that hit me. I was like, "Oh, so somebody pisses me off." Now I would say I got pissed off in a reaction to someone doing or saying something because no one can make you feel any way except yourself. And I thought, okay, so this person did this thing. I got pissed. Underneath that is hurt.

[01:49:59] And now I'm ruminating, thinking about them over and over again for weeks, months, years, whatever. It would be enough just to have the initial insult and to feel badly because of what happened. But now I'm doing it to myself. I'm re-feeling and re-feeling and re-feeling that sense of anger, persecution, victimhood, whatever, over and over again. And forgiveness is absolutely the key that fits that lock. Another thing, I think this is from the Bible. You're the expert.

[01:50:27] Jeff: I never said that.

[01:50:28] Luke: Forgive them for they know not what they do. That's a Jesus thing, right?

[01:50:32] Jeff: Yeah.

[01:50:34] Luke: Yeah. Well, someone fact check.

[01:50:37] Jeff: Okay. There was I think a couple. One was Stephen. So Stephen was stoned. This was post resurrection of Jesus. So Saul, who later became the apostle Paul, who wrote most of the new Testament, he was actually consenting to the death of this follower of the way, Stephen. And they were stoning him, basically for being a believer in Jesus Christ.

[01:51:04] And he said, as he was being stoned, "Don't lay this to his charge." Maybe that wasn't forgive him. He doesn't know what to do. It was one of those. But he said, "Don't lay this to his charge," which was interesting because then Paul was able to go on and do all those great things for God and totally convert. I think it's used a few times.

[01:51:23] Luke: Interesting. Well, wherever it comes from, I resonate with that concept because if one applies self-honesty and you have just a pinch of humility and you look at your track record in life, we've all messed up. We've all hurt other people intentionally, unintentionally, etc.

[01:51:41] But that idea of forgive them for they don't know what they do is so relevant to me and powerful because the mistakes I've made, I had no idea I was making them when I hurt people in my life. At the time I was doing what seemed to be the best course of action. No person sets out each day and is like, how can I be the absolute shittiest version of myself today and do the worst possible job at everything?

[01:52:07] We're all, even the most corrupt and evil people, however misguided they might be, they're waking up every day going, "Oh, I think this is what's right. I'm going this way." Just out of ignorance, they literally don't know that it's, I'm going to hurt other people or make their life worse or whatever. So I like that. It's like a lot of the mistakes that I've made and that other people make are just out of ignorance for where they were at that time. They thought it was a good idea. Turns out it wasn't.

[01:52:33] Jeff: And another teaching of Jesus right in those lines is to who much is given, much is required. So the people that know more, there's more responsibility for them, and more is accounted to them. So it's talking about punishment and someone that knew better and still made the wrong decision was punished a lot more than the person that didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

[01:52:55] Luke: So true. The road gets much narrower.

[01:52:58] Jeff: We don't know what we don't know, but once we-- and it goes back to the whole-- even the red pill on the matrix stuff, it's like, once you know, sometimes you don't want to. Because then you have more responsibility. It totally changes your life. And yeah, the more you know, the more responsible you are to take action on what you've learned.

[01:53:16] Luke: It's the paradox of restriction versus freedom. You feel like, oh man. I know for me, the more my moral character has been refined from working on it, it's more restrictive because there's fewer things I can get away with within my conscience. But then I'm more liberated because I'm not doing shitty things in the world, and I have a much smoother life as a result.

[01:53:42] Had a funny experience. I'll tell you real quick. Anyone still listening at this point, sorry if my story is boring, but every once in a while I'm faced with a moral decision. Now, the moral decisions I used to be faced with had much more dire consequences because I was just way more screwed up.

[01:53:58] Now I'm much more refined, and I think have a higher level of integrity than I've ever had. But every once in a while, the old Luke slips back in and gives me some ideas. So I've got into landscaping recently. I'm really into the gardening and doing the yard work and stuff. It's just the best meditation ever.

[01:54:15] So I started buying a bunch of plants and I go, "God damn, some of these plants are really expensive." I go to Home Depot. I just spent a few hundred bucks on a couple of little plants. I don't even know if the deer are going to eat them, if I'm going to kill them. So I started noticing in my neighborhood, there's some vacant lots that have really cool cacti and stuff.

[01:54:33] And I'm like, "Oh man, at home Depot, that's 60 bucks right there." And there's 20 of them. There's two vacant lots actually across from my house that have these plants that I really want, and I don't want to go buy them. So I'm thinking, well, that's not anyone's house. It's not going to do any harm if I go over there and just dig them up and move them across the street.

[01:54:52] And I thought, well, let me see who owns them, when they were sold, and stuff like that. So I go on Zillow and put in the address of that empty lot. And I see someone owns it. And then I went through this tiny moral battle of whether or not it would be wrong to go take these plants or not.

[01:55:12] No, to anyone listening that is of high integrity to be like, yeah, that's not yours. Don't touch it. But the fact that I actually was like, I don't know, I'm wrestling with that for a couple of days. And then I mentioned it to my wife. And of course she's like, "Dude, that's not yours. That's someone else's property. It doesn't matter if there's no house there or they're never going to go there ever again. Unless you have permission, that would be a trespass against someone else's property.

[01:55:34] And it's like, oh, duh. It was just hilarious that I didn't come to that understanding faster, where I would to get to the point where I look over there and go, "Oh, those would be nice." And go, "Yeah, but you don't own that." And I just keep walking. The fact that I took 48 hours to ruminate on this, I was going to ask my other neighbor, "Hey, how do you feel about this? Would that be wrong?" It's this whole thing. And to that point, it's like the road is narrow, but now I'm free of any guilt or karma as a result of having done that.

[01:56:04] If it was at all questionable to me, it means that I shouldn't do it. And someone might think, "Oh, God. What a wuss? Who cares? Go do it." On the other end of the spectrum, they're not going to know you're not hurting anyone. It doesn't matter. It's like just vacant, like raw land, but it matters to me because if I owned a piece of land over there, I don't want someone taking in my shit without my permission. The golden rule kind of thing.

[01:56:30] Jeff: Here's one interesting thought for you. I've been playing around with it. I think it's less about what you do and more about your intention behind it, if you think it's right or wrong. So your heart behind it. For example, in that situation, if you 100% went and just took one and you never had a second thought about it and you never even thought at any point there's anything wrong, would that be held against you in any way? Even if it was trespassing, stealing, and those things.

[01:56:59] Now, if you thought it was wrong and you did it anyway, then yes. And even in the Bible is actually a verse that talks about even if something is not wrong, but you think it's wrong and you do it, it becomes sin to you, even if it wasn't a sin to begin with.

[01:57:14] Luke: That's deep.

[01:57:15] Jeff: And then also there's one that says, if you know you should do something, but you don't do it, that's sin to you. If there's something good, you should do it.

[01:57:25] Luke: Like a sin of omission.

[01:57:26] Jeff: Yeah. My question is, okay, is it more about the action, or is it more about the heart behind it? I don't know. I don't have an answer. Food for thought.

[01:57:36] Luke: Yeah. Good point. Good point. I dig it. Well, I had no idea we were going to end on a beautifully philosophical note, but I'm glad we did. And thanks for coming out, man. I appreciate it. It's always such an honor when people fly here that don't live here. And thank you for breaking ties with Iowa and coming to hang out.

[01:57:55] I'm really glad that you found those cool bungalows down the street. Yeah. I'm going to start recommending that to guests that want a little more of a less urban experience of Austin. And thank you for making such a dope product, man. I'm super stoked. And I am, again, committing here to myself to get on the protocol and actually follow it the way it was designed and intended, and I'll keep you posted on the results.

[01:58:18] Jeff: Sounds like a plan.