[00:00:00] Caitlin Thompson: This medicine is really powerful. It can absolutely traumatize people and it can hurt people if used incorrectly. Combo is an Amazonian medicine that comes from the skin secretion of this very specific species of tree frog called the Phyla. Medusa Bicolor. What I have seen is a lot of damn near miraculous outcomes that continue to just blow my mind.

[00:00:24] If somebody wanted could potentially take it through drug development and make it an FDA approved medicine, which might give more people access to healing, it's

[00:00:32] Luke Storey: probably not gonna go mainstream anytime soon.

[00:00:35] Caitlin Thompson: I've had journals be total hostile to me, attack me, say, oh, you guys just wanna get high. And I'm like, did you even read the paper?

[00:00:43] People in the Amazon, it didn't even use it so much as a medicine, it was for magic.

[00:00:56] Luke Storey: Alright, Caitlin, Kaitlyn, walk me through [00:01:00] the very first time you had a combo experience.

[00:01:05] Caitlin Thompson: Okay, so I'll preface this story a little bit. Um, with the first time I ever even heard about combo, and this was in 2011, I was at an ayahuasca center in Iquitos and someone had mentioned this practice to me and I thought.

[00:01:24] God, that sounds so stupid and dangerous and reckless and crazy. Why would anyone do that? I didn't think much of it. And then a few years later, um, a friend came by and was like, wow, I've been going like so deep with this frog medicine. And I was like, oh, is that the thing I heard about? He's like, yeah. And he told me all about his experience and it was the first time someone had actually told me anything good about combo, uh, you know, other than the, oh, it's terrible.

[00:01:52] You feel like you're dying, you know, all the drama. So I was like, okay, take me with you. And this was in [00:02:00] 2015. There really wasn't a lot of people that knew much about combo. There were not a lot of people practicing or serving it. It was a bit obscure and even more fringe than it is now. And I went to this ceremony in, um, I drove like three hours there with my friend and I didn't really have any expectations.

[00:02:22] I was very much kind of just a young, curious psychological explorer. And I, you know, I knew that there was gonna be burning involved. I knew there was gonna be vomiting involved, but other than that, there, there, there wasn't even a lot of information on the internet at this time. And the whole experience ended up being unexpectedly profound for me.

[00:02:46] And the biggest takeaway that I got from that. First ceremony, um, was trying to kind of reconcile, um, this feeling of like holding an [00:03:00] ancestral wound that didn't belong to me. And this was also a time of my life where I was starting to figure out how sick I had actually been from birth. You know, I was born into this world with chronic fatigue and autoimmune stuff going on, and I always knew that something wasn't right, but it was really around this period of life when Combo came into the picture that I was starting to clue in and acknowledged that, you know, it wasn't normal to sleep 13 hours a day and feel exhausted all the time.

[00:03:31] As someone in my early twenties, and it was KO kind of coming into my life and accidentally. Healing me. That was started to give me contrast. It started to increase my baseline vitality and reduce my pain and improve my energy. And it was within that contrast that I was able to fully acknowledge and, and recognize that I had been very ill for my whole life.

[00:03:59] And [00:04:00] I just didn't know because I, my baseline was all that I knew, right? Um, so, you know, later I then discovered I had lupus and Lyme disease and PTSD and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth and mast cell activation mole exposure. You know, all the things that kind of damn, you know, snowball together.

[00:04:21] Luke Storey: The greatest hits.

[00:04:22] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. All the things that like to hang out together. Um, and VO really was at that time the most powerful tool, offering relief, offering clarity, um, not just in my physiological health, but also in my spiritual and expansive, you know, wellbeing where I could really understand how the, the psychosomatic aspect of my past had really, um, trickled down into my physiology and manifested this very real physical illness, um, likely from, you know, originating in the nervous system and the emotional body.[00:05:00]

[00:05:00] So that was all kind of how it came into my life. And then it honestly, cambo just took a hold of me and it. Spiraled outta control in the most beautiful way and just took control of my life. And I am blessed to be in partnership with it. Now,

[00:05:17] Luke Storey: what was the setting, um, for your first experience? What, were you in a room, were you outside?

[00:05:24] How many doses did you have? Did you do a number of them over the course of a few days? Tell me about the, the details. 'cause many people listening are like, what are you guys even talking about? We'll get there.

[00:05:35] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, funny enough, you know, I showed up at, um, you know, this was in like Desert Springs, like Palm Springs area, and it was a pretty beat up neighborhood, you know, it looked like there was probably a lot of drugs and stuff and poverty.

[00:05:53] And then in the middle of this kind of, you know, broken down neighborhood was this beautiful house with like [00:06:00] neon colored hummingbird art and, and just beauty. It just like stuck out like a Juul. And I go in and it turns out I actually knew these, uh, medicine women. They, they're a couple and I, I had been friends with their son and they had made the first, you know, DMT I'd ever smoked.

[00:06:18] So there was already a very strange synchronicity showing up and realizing that I knew these people. Um, you know, they have really wonderful intentions, but again, this was not a time where anyone knew anything about Cambo. So. They did serve in a way that I would definitely not endorse now. There was no real safety protocols that we've come to understand are important now.

[00:06:41] So it was a bit, you know, wild West, um, it was in their living room. There was probably. I dunno, maybe seven, eight people there total, we all kind of hung out on the couch and then would be called up one by one and there was no test point or anything. Um, they just [00:07:00] slapped on three points and they give you about five minutes, you know, to kind of purge it out.

[00:07:06] And then they send you back to the couch where you continue purging on your own. Which again, looking back, I'm like, that's not how I would've organized the ceremony. Um, but I think people just, you know, they just didn't know any different and yeah, you know, one thing they also did was tell me to drink a profuse amount of water, which is also a big no-no.

[00:07:26] And I think I arrived to the ceremony, probably borderline hyponatremia already. Um, having drank like probably six liters of water in the hours leading up to the ceremony, which is, you know, very dangerous and we can talk more about that later. Um, so, but you know, it, it wasn't an emotionally safe space.

[00:07:46] It did feel held in that way. But yeah, just as far as the, the awareness around safety protocols, um, was completely absent. And, you know, it's an evolving practice in the West and it's [00:08:00] becoming adapted now to, uh, meet the needs of Westerners. So we need to also educate people and raise the standard of how this medicine is utilized.

[00:08:09] Luke Storey: Beautiful. So that was in 2015.

[00:08:12] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah.

[00:08:12] Luke Storey: That's funny. That's the year that I first sat with it too. Um, sounds like a similar situation. The one thing I remember about it was the, my friend who brought me, uh, rest in peace, David Soleimani since, uh, has passed away, but he brought me and the whole plan was to go three days in a row and do it three times.

[00:08:36] And at that point, um, I not sat with plant medicines or anything in any intentional way, you know, just reckless youth psychedelics, but hadn't really been on my path at that point. So, and I was sober at the time. Well, I still am. Um, so, you know, I knew that it wasn't psychoactive, but I knew it was kind of in the shamanic [00:09:00] plant medicine, indigenous medicine realm.

[00:09:02] So I double checked on that, said, Nope, you don't get high or anything. And, um, we're supposed to go three times and like after, you know, the hour or whatever it took, I was like, hell no, I'm not going back. And I haven't done it since.

[00:09:19] Caitlin Thompson: Oh.

[00:09:19] Luke Storey: And I've done a, a lot of other things that were probably much more uncomfortable and longer lasting since then.

[00:09:25] But, um, one thing I did notice about it for sure was, um, this. Like diamond mind clarity, that lasted for probably about a week. I remember driving around LA and I, I felt like I was in a video game. Like my mind was so clear and so focused. I thought, man, I wish you could get that without, you know, is there just a pill you could take without having to go through the whole thing?

[00:09:57] But yeah, it was, uh, it definitely left a mark and [00:10:00] also open, I think, opened me to, you know, other realms that have been very supportive. Uh, so for people that are new to the topic, give us the breakdown on, um, we can talk a bit about the history, but just, you know, what is this frog medicine, uh, and, and how you get it in your body.

[00:10:21] I think that's the thing that's probably. Off putting to some people because it involves burning your skin and all the things where, you know, give us the, the 1 0 1 on it and then we can get into the weeds.

[00:10:32] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, the quick and dirty. So combo is an Amazonian medicine that comes from, uh, the skin secretion of a very specific species of tree frog called the phylo Medusa bicolor.

[00:10:45] And traditionally, um, this medicine was applied through, you know, transdermal application. Uh, very superficial burns made on the skin, usually the upper arm or the leg. But you know, you really can apply, uh, to most areas of the body. [00:11:00] And once the secretion is applied to the burn, it goes very rapidly into the system through the lymphatic system.

[00:11:09] And there are dozens of bioactive peptide molecules in the secretion. And they produce an array of really potent effects, um, on your physiology. So you're probably gonna feel your heart beating faster and harder. You might get a hot flushing sensation or a vibrational tingling sensations in the fingers.

[00:11:32] Um, mucus getting kind of excreted outta the eyes and nose. Um, sweating is normal, shaking is normal. General kind of mala or fatigue is normal. And facial swelling is also a really common feature of combo, which is important that people know because if the practitioner doesn't tell people, they can panic and think they're having an anaphylactic like allergic reaction.

[00:11:55] And that's not the case. It's, um, it's quite safe and okay. And [00:12:00] then nausea, vomiting, um, are keytones of the experience and, you know, people can also release through having bowel movements. Um, fainting is also possible and, and fairly common. Uh, so yeah, it produces this really potent, quite uncomfortable experience, uh, for about 20 to 30 minutes.

[00:12:22] And, um, you know, despite the, the sort of like outward violence of combo, it actually is very safe on a physical level. The peptides really display little to no toxicity to mammalian or human cells. The LD 50 is very, very, very high, at least in rats. Uh, so even though it looks quite intense, um, this is a practice that has been going on for at least hundreds of years, if not longer.

[00:12:51] Um, and has really, you know, consistently shown that if you take simple measures, it's a very safe process for [00:13:00] someone to go through.

[00:13:02] Luke Storey: And this, uh, medicine comes from these frogs, and from what I understand, it's uh, it's an excretion that comes out of their skin. That I'm assuming they used as a self-defense for things trying to eat them.

[00:13:15] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, definitely. So it's, it's used, you know, um, against predation, but actually primarily what they really utilize it for is I think antimicrobial protection. So there's a bunch of species of frogs right now that are kind of getting taken out by these, you know, kite fungal infections. And the phylo, Medusa bicolor frogs don't seem to have that issue.

[00:13:38] Their populations are in good standing, um, because they just don't fall susceptible to pathogens. 'cause part of the features of some of these peptides is that they're antimicrobial antifungal. So they kind of use it to, you know, rub and distribute all over their body and keep them healthy from pathogens.

[00:13:58] Luke Storey: What a trip. [00:14:00] Um, two things that I think are so bizarre about this world is the, the combo frog and the buffo varus toad. I just think it's nature is so funny. You know, the creator is so funny how it tucks these very unique and potent medicines away in places where you'd really have to look to find it as a human.

[00:14:26] So I always think about, you know, who was, I mean, you can think about like mushrooms, right? It's not that hard to deduce someone was hungry at some point and was like, oh, I'll eat some of this mushroom and next thing you know, they're. Having some sort of mystical experience, but when it comes to combo and buffo both, I always wonder like, who is the first person that's like, Hey, let's try burning our skin, or, you know, let's try smoking this venom.

[00:14:50] It's just such a funny, um, those two discoveries to me are really hilarious in that way. Totally. Especially with bfo. I mean, it's like you have the, the key to [00:15:00] consciousness found in one place. You know, this is so bizarre.

[00:15:04] Caitlin Thompson: It makes you really wonder what else is out there, right. I mean, there's, there's so many animal toxins.

[00:15:10] Just as an example of that category, so many animal venoms and secretions that have. Totally been not explored at all. And yeah, it makes you really wonder what else is out there and maybe we should be, um, conservative with, you know, our natural environment because it's probably full of medicine.

[00:15:30] Luke Storey: Who were the first people on record to work with combo?

[00:15:34] Caitlin Thompson: That is an interesting, um, piece of the puzzle that I continue to try to get down to the bottom of. Um, it depends on who you ask and, you know, most of my indigenous relations are with the mats who are probably the more popularly known for their use of Cambo. Um, but they were likely not the original users.

[00:15:57] Um, recently I kind of got [00:16:00] some word from Ames Elder about a story that this tribe called the Maribo, where perhaps the original holders of this medicine. And then they kind of taught a lot of the neighboring tribes like the Noki Coi, also known as the KAA and the Uni Kun, um yah. And these sort of other neighboring, you know, groups that shared the space with them.

[00:16:24] Um, but there's not really concrete documentation of the origins of Ka and it's something, you know, that was really passed down through. Word of mouth. And I try to ask as many, you know, indigenous elders as I can. But it's tricky because you can literally ask the same individual year after year the same question, and you get different answers.

[00:16:49] Um, and it's hard to say if that's because they're a bit secretive about their origins or they have shifting beliefs or, um, perhaps [00:17:00] sometimes there are commercial interests at hand. They wanna steer a narrative. So it can be really hard to know what's really true around the historical context of combo.

[00:17:11] Luke Storey: What does collecting the medicine look like for the people who go and retrieve these frogs? Are they, are they having to climb trees and is it difficult to catch them or do you just go down to the creek and like, oh, there's a couple, whoop 'em up.

[00:17:26] Caitlin Thompson: It's quite difficult and you know, when you see what it takes to harvest this medicine in the wild, it really helps you appreciate how precious it is and, and what a privilege it is.

[00:17:37] Um, typically you go out in the night, you know, depends, the frogs can be active at different times, but sometimes they're active at like three in the morning, you know, so you like wake up in the middle of the night, you go out, you call to them, you listen for their response calls so that you can locate them.

[00:17:56] Um, you figure out what tree they're in and. [00:18:00] Watching an indigenous person scale a 40 foot tree in the middle of the night. There can be vipers, you know, there's mosquitoes everywhere. They're barefoot and they climb up there, they find this frog. They'll, they'll kind of pick off the branch so that they don't disturb the frog at all, and then climb down while holding this frog.

[00:18:20] Like maybe the, the branch is in their mouth and they're like carefully climbing down and sometimes you catch the frog and there's no secretion there for you to even receive.

[00:18:31] Luke Storey: Oh, for real. Some of the frogs are duds.

[00:18:33] Caitlin Thompson: Well, yeah, because like they, you know, they need time to regenerate their secretion. So whether they were harvested from already or they actually had to utilize it for a defense, um, they don't always have it.

[00:18:46] And that really helps you recognize that like, oh, this is not something to take for granted. It's dangerous to climb up in the middle of the night and what you get, you know, you might not find a frog that has [00:19:00] anything to offer. And even if you do, you still need to leave that frog with some left to defend itself.

[00:19:07] Right. If you, if you wanna do ethical, sustainable harvesting practices. So once they bring the frog down, and there are different methods of the actual collection, I think most of the traditional way, um, involves the crucifixion. Um, you've probably seen photos and they do. Gently tie the frog's, you know, ankles and wrists and spread it out.

[00:19:32] The frogs look like they're being stretched like a rubber band, but it, they're really not. They're just super lanky. So if you extend their arms, it looks like you're, you know, kind of pulling them tight. Um, and then, you know, there is a certain amount of stress required to get the frog to secrete, right?

[00:19:51] It has to feel agitated and distressed in some capacity. Otherwise it won't, you know, really sit. And [00:20:00] sometimes I've seen where they're almost too gentle with the frog. And the frog is like, so chill and it's, it's not really releasing anything. 'cause it doesn't feel in danger in any way. So you gotta find the balance between not, you know, you have stress a little bit, but you don't wanna be cruel, um, or inhumane.

[00:20:18] And usually this, you know, they scrape off the sweat from its back and put it on like a bamboo palette, some sort of wooden palette. And, um, or you can, you can actually just take it fresh from the frog and apply it to a burn. I've seen certain groups literally take a frog and rub it on the burn, which looks a little uncomfortable for the frog.

[00:20:39] It's like a bar of soap, you know. Um, wow. Some people don't tie the frog, they'll actually just kind of hold it and, and scrape off. Um, but you know, it does seep into your skin when you're touching the frog. You can feel, oh, you know, it, it kind of has a minor effect. It'll soak through. Uh, so you do wanna make sure not to touch your eyes or [00:21:00] anything like that, or else it'll sting

[00:21:02] Luke Storey: and it's technically a poison, not a venom.

[00:21:05] Right.

[00:21:06] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. From a ecological perspective. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[00:21:09] Luke Storey: And what happens if, uh, what would happen if one were to just eat some of it? Would you die, get sick?

[00:21:17] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, I, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Um. You know, I haven't had the balls to find out myself. I, I'm normally pretty self experimental.

[00:21:26] Luke Storey: I would say that might be intelligence, you know, but

[00:21:29] Caitlin Thompson: I've heard some stories of people doing that, um, and feeling like really sick for like two weeks.

[00:21:36] I don't know how true any of that is. You know, when I think about it from just like a biochemical perspective, I imagine that your stomach acid would just destroy these peptides almost immediately. They're, they're quite fragile and they're very rapidly degraded by trypsin and other enzymes, proteases.

[00:21:55] So, I don't know. Um, I've definitely have administered [00:22:00] to animals before, like on their gums and they swallow it and there doesn't seem to be any

[00:22:06] Luke Storey: Oh, interesting

[00:22:06] Caitlin Thompson: effect, you know, 'cause I'm trying to get it in the mucus membranes on their gums, but they will swallow it 'cause they're an animal. You can't really fish it out of there.

[00:22:15] So. I don't know. Is is the, you know, long, long answer, short, I don't know. Um, there are alternative ways that you can administer kambo. You know, there are nasal, um, administration routes and rectal, I don't recommend rectal, but I, again, with animals, I have utilized rectal because I don't wanna burn an animal, you know?

[00:22:37] Yeah,

[00:22:37] Luke Storey: yeah. They, because they, they don't have the cognition to understand what's going on. So it's, it's, uh, 10 amount to torture for an animal. Right. Like, if I burned my dog cookie with a,

[00:22:47] Caitlin Thompson: yeah,

[00:22:47] Luke Storey: it's just a stick. She would probably be, um, her feelings would be hurt to say the least.

[00:22:52] Caitlin Thompson: It's, it's just not necessary.

[00:22:54] Luke Storey: So you've treated, uh, like pets though?

[00:22:57] Caitlin Thompson: I have, yeah. A few different species of [00:23:00] animals.

[00:23:00] Luke Storey: Really?

[00:23:01] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. Almost always in like fairly dire circumstances, um, where it was a risk, you know, but it was a calculated one and, um, it ended up faring really well for most of the animals.

[00:23:13] Luke Storey: Wow. How many humans have you served?

[00:23:16] Caitlin Thompson: Um, I think at this point, over 2,700 sessions. Over the last 10 years. Yeah.

[00:23:23] Luke Storey: Oh my God. What's the strongest, most memorable reaction you've ever seen?

[00:23:30] Caitlin Thompson: There are too many. There are too many. Um, and you know, when you say strong, you know, strong, strong isn't necessarily a good thing. You know, if, if someone's having a noticeably strong experience, uh.

[00:23:45] I might feel like, okay, this is too much for them. Right. Um, what I have seen is a lot of damn near miraculous outcomes that continue to just blow my mind. You know, like, it, it doesn't get old. [00:24:00] This medicine continues to keep me on my toes, continues to humble me and surprise me with the potency that it offers.

[00:24:08] You know, I've, I've seen people who have gone years without being able to take a poop on their own. They're doing daily enemas in order to have, you know, any sort of bowel movements. And they do combo one time and the next day they start pooping and they poop normally after that.

[00:24:27] Luke Storey: Wow.

[00:24:27] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. Things like that.

[00:24:29] Um, I've seen it work really incredibly for chronic pain, for smoking cessation. Um, you know, I've, I've seen it work for cancer. I've also seen it not work for cancer. So I think it very much depends also on the type of cancer and the context. Right. Um, there's a lot, you know, there, uh, it seems to work really well for managing, um, autoimmune conditions and especially infections.

[00:24:59] Chronic [00:25:00] infections, acute infections. I have saved myself from so many rounds of antibiotics by carrying a combo stick with me. All over the world. I've been in Sumatra with bladder infections. I've been in, you know, Malaysia with like horrible gut bugs. I've had motorbike accidents in the tropics where, you know, my wounds are getting infected or get, I get tattoo work and they're getting infected.

[00:25:25] And a little bit of convo, um, is rapidly effective for helping probably boost immune function more than have direct antimicrobial effects. But whatever it is, uh, there is definitely an immunogenic aspect. And I also served a lot of people during the virus that shall not be named. Um, ERA I was running all over, um, the island that I live on, uh, actively serving people, micro doses of kambo with, you know, act of COVID and it was just [00:26:00] terminating it instantaneously.

[00:26:02] So it, it is a very versatile and powerful tool.

[00:26:08] Luke Storey: You are making me want to do it. After that first one, I was like, never again. But you know, there's certain things that are difficult to get to, difficult to treat, you know, like I was talking to you about tinnitus before we recorded, and it's just like, everyone kind of throws their hands out.

[00:26:24] Like, I got nothing for that. So I always think about, um, people that have sort of seemingly incurable or hard to identify issues, you know? And I've, I've heard, um, from other people also practitioners, just the endless miracles they see. It's just incredible. I'm just like, man, why can't they do it in a way that's really comfortable, you know?

[00:26:47] Caitlin Thompson: But the thing is, they can,

[00:26:49] Luke Storey: oh yeah, that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted to ask you. I, and you correct me where I'm wrong, but running in spaces with people who are, you know, working with plant [00:27:00] medicines and things like that, it seems like kind of like podcasting. Everyone and their mom's doing it.

[00:27:05] You know, it's like every, I, every other person I meet, it's like, I serve combo. I'm like, really? Everyone, you know?

[00:27:10] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah.

[00:27:10] Luke Storey: Um, but there's this thing that's like. What's the word people use? Like how many points you did there? There seems to be kind of a, like with anything, there's um, you know, some sort of ego identification or machismo about like how much combo you did.

[00:27:27] And I've talked to practitioners who I think are maybe in, in the game a little bit longer, more experienced, and they speak more like the word you mentioned microdose. They're like, dude, you have to assess each individual person and kind of base the dose on that. It's not about like how many points can you handle kind of thing.

[00:27:45] So talk to us about dosing and the, the ethics around that. Um, you know, for people that don't have the opportunity to work with you and might be interested in this, or even someone who's maybe had a less than positive [00:28:00] experience, they might be able to ascertain why it was more challenging than maybe it needed to be to get the desired effect.

[00:28:07] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought this up because this is a topic that I'm very passionate about. Um, and yeah, it is removing the ego and. Actually helping people access healing through softness. I think there's already this pervasive theme in society, um, or programming where people believe that they have to suffer to deserve their healing or you know, they have to work hard and it has to be painful for you to justify your existence, right?

[00:28:37] It's like this bigger theme in our, our global economy. And that's something that I really aim to kind of rewire as a concept for people. 'cause it really is in, in the yin and the softness where people have the greatest breakthroughs, at least from my experience. And there's so many people like you that, you know, did cambo one time or whatever [00:29:00] with someone who may have not been the most attuned or experienced or educated on how to use that medicine.

[00:29:08] Um, and they are traumatized. And this medicine is really powerful. It can absolutely traumatize people and it can hurt people if used incorrectly. And like you said, everyone and their mom is now identifying as a practitioner. Um, there's been an explosion of these sort of weakened warrior training certifications and people just don't know what they don't know.

[00:29:33] And even though they have maybe the best of intentions when they go through a three day certification program, they come out. Believing that they're qualified and then they hurt people or they traumatize people or at best they don't help people really extract as much meaning and like juicy benefit as they could because they lack the skills and the mastery to do so.

[00:29:58] So dosing really [00:30:00] plays into that in a significant way. I kind of am like at the opposite end of the spectrum where I feel like bragging about how little medicine I can use to help people catalyze an effective experience for them. Um, I really think that consciousness medicine is. Probably the, the primary tool that we should be using.

[00:30:23] And then these medicines, you know, like combo or psychedelics or whatever, um, can then provide some of the like physiological rocket fuel to augment the openness and the plasticity for your consciousness to really, um, intentionally rewrite the narrative. But if that part is not supported or, you know, if the practitioner does not know to guide someone into finding their power in utilizing consciousness medicine, they're missing a, a really great opportunity.

[00:30:59] [00:31:00] Um, you know, kambo does a lot on its own, but when you actually navigate with intentionality and with direction, it is like rocket fuel, like I said. And that's the thing that I see missing, is like people are lazy and they're wanting the cambo to do all the work, when really you need to be expertly curating the context of that person's experience, the environment, and helping them derive meaning from the experience, using consciousness, using intentionality, because that's actually what helps people integrate the experience and change their lives, you know, the effects of combo.

[00:31:44] They last, you know, maybe a week or so where you can feel the physiological differences. But then what, then you kind of go back to your life. And just like with psychedelics, there's this big theme around integration. Um, so looping back to dosage, 'cause I can get on [00:32:00] these kind of, you know, um, so opera, whatever,

[00:32:02] Luke Storey: we, we have plenty of time.

[00:32:04] Caitlin Thompson: It turns out when people feel safe, grounded, prepared, they have informed consent and you guide them into the ceremonial space so that they can really drop into a parasympathetic response before they go into the combo. The potency of the medicine's actually different. And this makes sense, right? If you're, uh, in a stress response, you're not sure if you feel safe with a practitioner, maybe there's 20 people in the room.

[00:32:33] Nobody seems to be watching or supervising any of them, and you get, you know, 10 points slapped on you for your first time without a test point or anything. You are going to contract, you're gonna be in, in vigilant survival mode, and you're just gonna be hanging on for dear life until you make it to the other side.

[00:32:52] You're gonna be in a sympathetic stress response state. If you are running from a lion and you're having this stress [00:33:00] response, your physiology is gonna tell you. Now is not the time to vomit. We do not have 30 seconds to pull over and puke in the bushes. The lion is chasing us. Right? And so what actually happens when people don't feel safe, whether it's conscious or unconscious, um, they block the effects of the medicine and they can't actually allow it to go in and and do its thing.

[00:33:25] So if you know how to expertly guide someone into a state of relaxation and safety and vulnerability, you don't need to use very much medicine. So many times in my practice, I'm putting probably 40% of the time, I'm putting one point on people

[00:33:42] Luke Storey: really,

[00:33:43] Caitlin Thompson: and they're having full purgative experiences.

[00:33:45] Luke Storey: Wow.

[00:33:45] Caitlin Thompson: They're, they're having breakthroughs more so than if you slam them with like six points off the rip. Because then, like I said, they're just gonna go into survival mode and they are going to block themselves from actually receiving [00:34:00] the intelligent gifts from the medicine. So I'm very much all about, you know, minimal, effective dose, low and slow.

[00:34:08] And, you know, I'm not here to cheap out on anybody. If anyone ever wants more, I'm so happy to give them more, but they, they never do. Right? Like, once you're in it, um, and you're having a full breakthrough experience, you know, it's really up to you here. How you want to navigate that. And just because it's more painful for you does not necessarily mean that you're gonna get more out of it.

[00:34:34] In fact, I like to really teach people that, you know, we want the, the experience to be manageable so that you can actually use it like a weight, like a barbell where you're training your nervous system to be able to induce a parasympathetic surrender response or whatever in the face of challenge and uncomfortability.

[00:34:59] 'cause if you [00:35:00] can do that and you can actually develop that as a skill, life is gonna be so much better, right? Because life is full of hardship, of painful stuff. So that's where the integration comes in. If you can practice and develop those skills with tools like Combo and Nanga and rap, that kind of all you know, are used together, and then take that and apply that to your life, that's, these are the gifts that combo can bring amongst other things.

[00:35:27] But that's the way I like to guide people so that they can actually go out into the world and live a better life.

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[00:37:02] Again, hit up buy optimizers.com/luke. I really like your perspective here, uh, in so many ways a being. The body is not going to go into healing if it's sympathetic and in a fight or flight kind of scenario. Which kind of brings me back to that first experience I had where a lot of people were really, really struggling to kind of freaking out.

[00:37:29] Um, luckily I think I'd been meditating for a very long time by that time, so I don't even know. It might have, I don't remember if the practitioner suggested this, but I remember just breathing slowly and keeping myself as calm as possible. And I treated the experience like a meditation. It was like, okay, how present can I be with something really uncomfortable without resisting?

[00:37:58] And, and I [00:38:00] did. And I don't, I actually don't think I purged, but as it started to wear off, I purged out the backside violently. But I remember just, can I be present with this? Because I really wanted to have the full experience. And, um, to your point of building that kind of resilience for integration, meaning living your life out there, this is, um, this is why I do ice baths all the time.

[00:38:25] I mean, like many times a day. A, it's hot as shit in Texas a lot of the time, but my practice has always been. How quickly can I just totally relax and surrender to that moment? And I don't have any science to back this up, but, uh, it takes a lot to get me riled up. You know, I mean, something can happen that's unexpected and, um, I'm pretty decent at keeping my composure and kind of assessing things without, um, without panicking.

[00:38:56] So I really like that approach to this particular [00:39:00] medicine because it just makes so much common logical sense, right? If you're having a lot of resistance and your body's freaking out and you're unable to have, well, I guess in your case, you would be assisting someone to be in that place where they can have agency, right?

[00:39:16] Like, wow, I'm sweating. I'm really uncomfortable. My face is puffing up. How can I surrender to this experience and allow the medicine to work it's magic without me interfering because of my reaction to it?

[00:39:31] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, a hundred percent. And you know, a lot of people who practice combo, you know, ongoing for years, maybe they're actually serving people.

[00:39:41] I think you arrive at a place where when you take combo, you no longer suffer. You just get the hell out of the way. You, you know what it is, you trust it, you know that it's okay, and you do it, and you just allow the experience to happen and being present with it and [00:40:00] observing the sensations. And one of the things I love about Combo is that it's an amazing tool for embodiment, especially in a world where, you know, psychedelic fireworks are often celebrated and chased after people want these really intense, exciting, novel, trippy experiences, which have their place, don't get me wrong, I love a good, you know, good visual.

[00:40:24] But, um, with Cambo it's like it pulls you so into your body that you have no choice but to confront the humanness of the sensations. And that alone is so much potential medicine for people, for them to really open up and invite that in and find ways of harmonizing. With the intensity and the sensations of being in their body.

[00:40:56] And, and that's, I think, part of why some people don't [00:41:00] like it because it, it really puts it right here and it's like a Chinese finger trap, you know, like the harder you pull, the tighter it gets. And the only way through combo is through softness and through surrendering. And it's a bit counterintuitive, but once that clicks and then you develop it, um, you are like, wow, what else can I do this with?

[00:41:26] Make it easier.

[00:41:28] Luke Storey: How often do you administer it to yourself or have someone do it to you? Is it something you do on a seasonal or regular basis at this point after serving gazillions of people?

[00:41:41] Caitlin Thompson: You know, it's changed over the years. Um, and I think the most important thing is to listen to where your needs are at with the medicine and to not just take them out of some sort of expectation or schedule.

[00:41:54] Right. Um, when I was, you know, really ill, I took [00:42:00] combo a lot more when I first started with it. I was probably using it once a month or so. And then I, I was getting healthier and healthier and I found that I was able to go longer and longer without it. So then it kind of became once every eight weeks and then once every, you know, 12 weeks and then maybe a couple times a year.

[00:42:20] Um, these days I actually don't use it a ton, probably. You know, I go to the jungle once a year and when I'm in the jungle you just do it every day. So I might do it like five times in like a week or something.

[00:42:35] Luke Storey: Really?

[00:42:35] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. Just 'cause you know, when in the jungle that's mm-hmm. That's what you're there to do.

[00:42:39] But during the rest of the year, like maybe two max, three times, um, I use microdosing a lot more at this point, and really as more of like an antibiotic intervention than anything. Um, especially living in the tropics, there's all sorts of pathogens trying to get you all the time. So I mostly [00:43:00] use microdosing and, you know, on, on the subject of like softness and like yen.

[00:43:05] Um, microdosing is so great. It's like easy. Um, there's no nausea purging involved. It, it still produces some degree of physical effects, like you'll still get some heart beating and some heat flushing, but it's quite blissful actually. And as long as you keep it below that kind of purgative threshold, it's really easy.

[00:43:27] It doesn't wipe you out for the rest of the day. You don't have to fast for eight hours. Um, you can just move on with your day. It gives you energy, um, and it, it knocks out infections like instantly. Wow. Um, so that's kind of more where I'm at these days is like staying connected through really low doses and then using a full purgative dose if I need it.

[00:43:50] But I seldom need it at this point.

[00:43:52] Luke Storey: You've fixed your shit, you worked it out

[00:43:55] Caitlin Thompson: well, I mean to, to some extent, but also bodies change, right? Yeah. Over time. And [00:44:00] there's other tools that I'm finding really supportive right now and doing a lot of other injectable peptides and high dose vitamin C and things like that.

[00:44:09] And, um, yeah, I just feel like there are seasons to any person's growth and journey in their wellness

[00:44:17] Luke Storey: is the combo, uh, excretion, standardized meaning? Can you always determine how much of the actives are present? Um, meaning, um, for example, with the bufo toad excretion, I've experienced this myself and it's been pretty jarring where, you know, you have a measurement say on a scale of a certain milligram, and then you take a dose and it's what you expect.

[00:44:46] And then the same exact measurement could have less or more of the actives in it, and all of a sudden you're getting much more than you bargain for. Are you, are you able to predict, you know, the, the measurements in a way, [00:45:00] or is it variable because it's coming from nature and not a lab?

[00:45:03] Caitlin Thompson: It is extremely variable.

[00:45:05] I mean, I think any natural substance is, there's so many contingencies even in plants, right? Yeah. You know, I, I've been trying to find an objective answer to this. I, for the last five years, I have diligently been trying to get some proteomic analysis on a number of sticks, and I have sadly failed over and over and over for a number of reasons.

[00:45:30] You know, like the samples get. Stolen in a backpack in Peru, or then I get new samples and they're contaminated, or, okay, these samples work, but now they need the frog's DNA, and then I like find frog eggs and then, you know, or, or you run the mass spec and it didn't work. Or there's just, it's just been an ongoing thing.

[00:45:49] Um, what I do know, there have been very few papers published that have actually kind of assayed the constituents of sticks and I'm, [00:46:00] I'm familiar with two papers and the, the, the ingredients on those sticks of the two papers are nothing near similar to each other. So based on that and kind of observing sessions, um, there is so much variation in the constituents of the secretion likely.

[00:46:23] And, you know, that makes sense. Frogs are individuals like you and I, they are different ages, they're different sexes. There's different seasons of the year. Um, they live in different environments where maybe there's more or less abundance of food or population or human interaction or harvesting or whatever.

[00:46:42] So it doesn't surprise me. Um, but yeah, there, there really isn't any sort of standardization at this point. And that is something that I would like to. Push science forward in understanding, um, because then it, it actually opens up the [00:47:00] ability to consider creating like a synthetic analog that can take pressure off of, you know, naturally derived cambo.

[00:47:08] Um, perhaps resolving some of the sustainability concerns, but also, you know, if somebody wanted, could potentially take it through drug development and, and make it an FDA approved medicine, um, which might give more people access to healing that otherwise wouldn't. You know, choose to do frog poison, right?

[00:47:28] Luke Storey: Yeah. It's probably not gonna go mainstream anytime soon.

[00:47:31] Caitlin Thompson: No. And there's a lot of challenges and

[00:47:33] Luke Storey: it's true iteration.

[00:47:34] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, for sure. I mean, we, we don't even really have hardly any human research at this point. Um, I'm aware of, you know, two studies that have been published that are involving humans. One of them is one of my studies.

[00:47:47] Another is like just a survey of people that took Cambo at any point. And then I just finished conducting the first prospect of human study on combo, um, where we administered [00:48:00] psychometric scales before, after, and then three months after follow-up. Um, and the results were really profound, actually. Like massive drops in depression, symptomology, significant increases in mindfulness scores, life satisfaction, things like that.

[00:48:15] You know, we also found that concurrent use of Nanga and Rae with the cambo also enhanced positive psychological outcomes. Um, so right now I'm trying to get that study published. For the last nine months I have been grinding, trying to get a journal to look past the taboo nature of it and appreciate our bulletproof statistical analysis.

[00:48:40] But it is hard because the stigma is alive and real in the scientific community, like shockingly so, 'cause I thought, oh, we're all scientists, we're trained to think, you know, as unbiasedly as possible. Because we're supposed to be truth seekers. And turns out that's not actually the case for everybody apparently.

[00:48:59] And [00:49:00] I, I've been shocked by some of the, you know, weird responses I've gotten from journals around, like even just trying to publish a literature review. It's like all this is already published. I'm just compiling it into a different version and it's still, they feel it's controversial and I'm like, it's just fact.

[00:49:21] Like they're, these peptides have been found in this thing. Like there's nothing that, you know, controversial about it, but I've had journals be total hostile to me. Um, attack me, save really bizarre things. Say, oh, you guys just wanna get high. And I'm like, did you even read the paper? That's like in the first paragraph, you know, you don't get high.

[00:49:42] Um, so yeah, I trying to push forward Cabo science is hard and, you know, it'd probably be easier with more support, but, um. Sometimes you just have to do something. If you want it done, you have to do it yourself. 'cause I'm looking around like, [00:50:00] who's gonna do this? Nobody crickets. So I'm like, okay, I'll find a way to do it.

[00:50:05] And you know this, this last study that we're, um, this close to publishing, it was funded by some random crypto millionaire that I served Cambo to in Bali,

[00:50:16] Luke Storey: really,

[00:50:16] Caitlin Thompson: who was, you know, he had this philanthropic sort of agenda and he wanted to donate to projects where he felt like his money could actually really accelerate a field.

[00:50:27] So he gave me, you know, more than six figures of funding to make this study happen. No strings attached. Like really no agenda other than to just support the progress of these type of, you know, research that can hopefully help humanity. So. It's been a blessed journey, but man, if anyone is listening and you wanna, you know, you have an institution that wants to get in on this, um, please, please.

[00:50:56] Um, we just started, um, a nonprofit, um, a [00:51:00] few months ago, so it's brand new. It's called the Institute of Campbell Advancement and Preservation. And part of our initiatives is to, uh, have, you know, support in funding ongoing research that can be more sophisticated, can, can be, you know, more controlled, um, as well as conservation initiatives, sustainability research studies, uh, harm reduction education, things like that.

[00:51:24] Those are all in the wheelhouse of things that we feel are important as this medicine grows and expands in the awareness of society.

[00:51:34] Luke Storey: Well, we're gonna put links to everything you do at luke store.com/combo, k mbo, um, and we'll get to some more of that later. But it sounds like with this particular medicine.

[00:51:48] People involved have to be incentivized just for the greater good and caring about humanity, right? If you're getting this kind of resistance from the scientific community or, [00:52:00] uh, indifference or lack of interest, and obviously there's probably not a lot of money to be made in something like this that can't be patented because God made it.

[00:52:10] I mean, I can see why you would have difficulty moving forward for a number of reasons, but I really like this. You know, the wealthy guy comes in and says, man, I have a positive experience here. I wanna get this information out and has the resources to do that. I think that's one of the most positive things about these kind of sacred medicines, whether they're psychedelic or not, um, is people that are resourced and influential, having life changing experiences and going like, why doesn't everyone know about this?

[00:52:41] I know a lot of practitioners that, um, work with wealthy people and charge a lot of money for their services, which I, at first thought was a little shady. Think of two people specifically that I had positive experiences with, and I'm like, how much do you charge? They're like, it's, I'm not trying to make money.

[00:52:59] I'm trying to [00:53:00] get to the heads of corporations, the heads of state. They're going for like a top down impact, right? To get people to become invested because they have positive experiences rather than, you know, solely focusing on the people, um, in need that aren't resourced. So it's an interesting kind of, um, vertical there.

[00:53:19] I don't think there's a right or wrong way, but I'm starting to see that there's some value in reaching influential people that can actually help the cause solely out of the kindness of their heart and the fact that they want to help their fellow humans.

[00:53:34] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, we need that. Um, you know, and whether you like money or not, um, it is what makes the world run and it's much better for someone who has good intentions and wants to create something of value for the world to be resourced.

[00:53:51] And so, yeah, I don't, I don't judge anyone for charging what they need, um, so that they can support others and, you know, their [00:54:00] modality.

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[00:55:56] Luke Storey: What's up with the, uh, conservation? Are there any issues [00:56:00] with, um. Extinction or environmental impacts or negative impacts to the cultures, uh, where these medicines originate. I know that's a issue with the, the bufo toad. You know, you have people out there trying to make a buck and decimating the desert toad, um, to sell the venom when you could just use synthetic, you know?

[00:56:21] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, totally. Um, the ans so currently the, the frogs are non threatened, which is great. Uh, their populations are abundant, you know, they don't really have a lot of predators. You know, word on the block is you don't eat that frog. Right. Um, so luckily their populations are good for now, but as someone who's on the ground in the jungle, year after year, I am seeing changes to the population.

[00:56:48] And, you know, over harvesting is a concern that I have, especially as it continues to grow in interest. And like you said, the, the indigenous have, you know, started [00:57:00] using harvesting of Cabo to support their livelihoods because they have no choice but to integrate with a, a modernizing world where money is involved.

[00:57:09] Right. So you are finding areas that are being heavily harvested from, um, the frogs are declining in their health and. While this isn't affecting, you know, the larger population of the entire Amazon basin, 'cause many of the frogs are probably so deep in the Amazon that most people can't access them. Um, but on like, you know, the outskirts of like Iquitos and places like that, um, there's people going up and down the river with boats just squeezing as much out of these frogs as they can, uh, to make a buck.

[00:57:44] And yeah, there's a, a few different things going on there. Um, one, I think this is the time earlier rather than later to start initiatives, um, with conservation and sustainability. Because if we don't even have a [00:58:00] baseline of what a healthy population should be, how can we even know what our goal should be?

[00:58:06] So again, that's something that we're trying to kind of pioneer is let's start getting some, you know, conservation and sustainability initiatives on the ground and actually empower the indigenous by having them run these projects. Um, how having them have other sources of income and support so they don't have to just solely rely on harvesting of the medicines.

[00:58:33] You know, that's also why I take groups to the jungle too, is so that people can not only see with their own eyes where this medicine comes from and, and what it's really like in these communities, but that we can actually bring them resources that don't rely on them, just. Stripping all the frogs from the jungle, and they can actually get paid to provide an experiential process for people instead.

[00:58:57] Um, so these are concerns that I have. I [00:59:00] think that they should be addressed earlier rather than later. And I also am seeing, you know, these cultural changes happening rapidly in these indigenous communities, which, you know, it's a complicated topic, uh, because on one hand, when you come into an indigenous community, especially as a white person, um, you, you don't really have much right to say, you know, how they're gonna live their life.

[00:59:28] So if you do come in and bring them resources, I don't feel it's really up to you to tell them how to allocate their resources. Like they get to decide what their community wants, and sometimes it's starlink and sometimes it's, you know, solar power and sometimes it's iPhones and you know, part of you might not want that to happen.

[00:59:50] You want them to preserve their culture and their way of life because to you, on the outside it's like interesting and feels connected to nature. And it is, but you know, you're [01:00:00] not the one living that life every day. Um, and not having internet and not having electricity and not having a bed to sleep on and, and, you know, no medical care or whatever.

[01:00:11] So. It can be very delicate to engage with these indigenous communities as they start to get more access to the modern comforts. 'cause the human condition will always want more than what it has, right? That's like, that's how we survive as humans. We have this dopaminergic quality that leaves us yearning for more than what we have.

[01:00:35] And that, I don't know if that will ever change, no matter who you are and where you live. Um, so yeah, I just, you know, working with some of these villages and seeing, you know, like shitting in a hole in the ground and having bats fly out of it and stuff, and going to like them having these buildings with like toilets and tile floors and solar showers and you're just like, [01:01:00] wow.

[01:01:00] Or, you know, the getting the starlink, um, now everybody's playing games on their phones. They're not as engaged. Even just the kids, you know, when, when I first started going there, the kids hardly spoke any Spanish and now the kids are fluent in Spanish, which is quite a cool, 'cause I can communicate more effectively with them now.

[01:01:20] But, um, yeah, it, it's an interesting experience like watching the. You know, interaction with indigenous communities around all these medicines, not just combo, how it inevitably shapes their offerings, the way they engage, even the stories they tell about their medicines. 'cause I've also seen those change, which makes me believe that maybe there's a bit of commercial fabrication going on as well to kind of, I don't know, create like a story that feels emotional for people and it makes them wanna give more money or [01:02:00] whatever.

[01:02:00] Um, so that's definitely a reality and it's something I talk about a lot and it's, it's something I like to help people understand the complexities of, because there is a lot of romanticization of indigenous practices without a, a full, um, conceptual understanding of like, what is life actually like for an indigenous person in their villages.

[01:02:23] Luke Storey: Speaking of romanticizing, um, I think in the west in general, we have, when it comes to rituals and ceremony, um, I think. Sometimes we have, uh, a bit of a romantic fantasy vision of how those things play out in, in those cultures. Uh, you know, yeah, right. Where, I mean, I've heard stories from people going down to the Amazon, whatever and drinking ayahuasca, and they're expecting things to have this elaborate, uh, production and so on.

[01:02:56] And it's just, you know, you're just sitting in a, in a shed with some, [01:03:00] some guy and he's the shaman and he is just wearing like an Old Navy shirt. It's not, it's, doesn't have all the bells and whistles that, that we might, uh, that we might imagine. What have you learned about the level of, um, I dunno, intentionality, ritual ceremony specific to combo?

[01:03:20] Is it something that is, is very elaborate and well thought out and practiced? Or is it just kind of like, this is what we do, it's not a big deal here, take a little burn? Or is it, I'm sure it's a spectrum depending on who you're working with, but what, what is the kind of, um, western perspective, how does it differ from how people are working with combo in, in its place of origin?

[01:03:44] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, so in the jungle with most communities that use combo, um, there is little to no ritual or. Spirituality there. There's no shamanic history with kambo at all. That's something that I think all the ayahuasca people [01:04:00] have just kind of blanket applied to Ka Ah, okay. Um, yeah, and you know, you don't have to be a shaman to administer ka in these communities.

[01:04:09] Uh, there's no songs most of the time. Some, some places they'll sing songs, but I think that was a newer adaptation because the gringo like the songs, right. Um, but I don't think they typically sing songs there. There's definitely no intention setting. There's no prayers, there's no safety protocols. No one asks you if you have any contraindications.

[01:04:33] Like you're just sitting on a log, puking on your feet and puking on your neighbor's feet. And no one's really there to even like, help you. Um, sometimes they might kind of hold you up if they think you're about to faint, but it's very casual and I kind of like it, it, you know, it's, it's something right?

[01:04:50] It's its own thing. And, um, it has, its, you know, own energy of being in the jungle in the environment and doing fresh from the [01:05:00] frog. It's a whole experience. But with the modernization of KA in the West, there has been this like neo. Spiritual adaptation to it, which I actually really like. And I am not at all a traditionalist in any sense.

[01:05:16] Um, I, I despise dogma. Um, I think that innovation is our friend, and I think discernment is important. We need to look at the parts of, you know, historical use that makes sense and ask like, does this apply to the needs of the community that's taking it in this context? And sometimes it doesn't. You know, one example is, um, whether to use saliva or water to reconstitute the secretion.

[01:05:47] People that are, you know, very, you know, traditionalists, they'll say, oh, well the indigenous people use saliva. I'm like, that's 'cause they don't have access to clean water. You know, like compared to the amoeba laden river water, their [01:06:00] saliva probably is a better choice. But when we have access to purified water and we're working professionally in a, you know, first world country and we don't wanna be rubbing our spit into someone's open wound, we can use water.

[01:06:15] Right? And, you know, there's, there's all these dogmatic ideas about whether you don't transmit the energy of the practitioner, et cetera. I don't find any of that to be true personally. Um, so there's things like that that I think we really need to question and. I am a fan of the ceremonial that I've seen happen with Cambo because I think it is an evolving way of using Cambo.

[01:06:43] And you know, I personally don't believe that Cambo belongs to the indigenous people of the Amazon. I believe it belongs to the frog, and I do think the frog has its own agenda, has its own, um, desires, and it has left the jungle for a reason. [01:07:00] And I think it wants to move into broader parts of the world and do whatever its mission is.

[01:07:07] And I think it's okay that things change. That, that things get updated to be relevant to, you know, what's needed, um, by the, the people that are using Cabo. People in the Amazon didn't use Cambo for their childhood trauma or aligning their chakras or any of that. They primarily used it for magic. Actually, they didn't even use it so much as a medicine.

[01:07:31] It was for magic. It was for increasing their hunting abilities, for improving their visual acuity, their perceptual, um, abilities, their endurance. It was like an adaptogen in some ways for them. And then on occasion, you know, if you start to feel a bit sluggish, you know, you got that Panama, it's like that dark energy kind of, uh, groggy cloud of bad luck.

[01:07:56] Uh, then they'll give you cambo or if you have malaria [01:08:00] or um, you know, a gut bug or something like that, they will take a cambo for things like that. But they mostly used it for like divination and, and you know, hunting magic. Nowadays we're using it for our Lyme disease, our diabetes, our addictions, our childhood trauma, our anxiety and depression, um, whatever.

[01:08:23] These are things that don't even exist in the jungle and. The way that Cambo is being utilized now is different. And so it has to be, you know, evolved and innovated to match the, the novel application of this medicine. I really feel like Cambo is expanding into New Horizons and showing us that it has way more capacity to be applied to different things than we originally knew of, based on hundreds of years of traditional use.

[01:08:57] So it's kind of like having its own like Renaissance [01:09:00] and finding, um, its place in a growing, expanding global world.

[01:09:06] Luke Storey: What do you think about its role in conjunction with other entheogens? And I know a lot of people will, um, practitioners that serve Bufo or Ayahuasca, whatever it is, they'll have a preliminary combo kind of clearing.

[01:09:22] Actually, I just was with a friend a couple days ago and she was telling me, I forget what medicine she was working with, but she said, oh, the day before we did combo and then we did wachuma, or whatever it was. Um, and I hear that quite a bit. It's never, it's never been offered. When I was around prior to my conversation with you, I might have declined it.

[01:09:39] Now I'm, I'm getting reinterested, but, um, yeah. What, what, what do you see the value being there in terms of physical clearing, nervous system clearing, energy clearing too? To help facilitate a more positive or deeper experience for people that are going into, you know, a plant medicine, uh, kind of [01:10:00] space.

[01:10:00] Another thing, does it bug you when people call combo plant medicine? 'cause it bugs me when people call buffo plant medicine.

[01:10:06] Caitlin Thompson: Oh yeah. That's a even mushroom because

[01:10:07] Luke Storey: I'm like, mushrooms aren't a plant.

[01:10:09] Caitlin Thompson: I tried to create, I I've created a new term. Amphi biotic.

[01:10:14] Luke Storey: Cool.

[01:10:15] Caitlin Thompson: I like it. I'm like, let's just talk, talk about the frog and toad things.

[01:10:18] Call 'em amphi bios. I like that. Or in a neurogen. That's another good one. A neurogen. 'cause in a neuron is like a frog or a toad. So yeah, if you want feel like spreading those, um, new terminology,

[01:10:29] Luke Storey: I mean, would, would combo fit in the category of an entheogen? I mean, 'cause the way you're describing it and working with it, right?

[01:10:38] It doesn't, you don't have like a mystical experience per se or visuals, but it sounds like in your work you're seeing people have something happen beyond just the gross physical people are having metaphysical insights. There's a, there's a change in consciousness even though we might not think about it in, in a classical sense that Oh, I was tripping balls on combo.

[01:10:58] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. [01:11:00] Um, I think Inogen is still somewhat relevant, um, because yeah, I do think it does tap into some sort of quantum meta. Fabric of reality that is a bit distinct from, you know, psychedelic spaces, but it's definitely there. But yeah, I, I hate when people call it plant medicine. I'm like, a plant medicine comes from a plant, like even mushrooms aren't a plant medicine.

[01:11:27] I know the biologist in me gets really annoyed. I'm like, not technically correct.

[01:11:36] Luke Storey: I like being social as much as the next guy. I just don't like being sloppy. And if you've ever woken up after a night out, feeling foggy, dehydrated, and off your game, you know exactly what I'm talking about. For me, that trade off stopped making sense a long time ago. I still love the ritual though, chilling with friends, having something in your hand, that moment where the day winds down and conversation and [01:12:00] connection open up.

[01:12:01] And that's why lately I've been obsessed with Vesper from peak. This is a non-alcoholic drink made with herbs and plant extracts that help you relax without losing your edge. I've been drinking it at dinners and evening hangouts, and what I notice is I feel relaxed, open and present, but still very sharp.

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[01:13:06] So, so, uh, I think I derailed you, but uh, take me back to its role in, you know, a suite or an entourage of other medicines. How does it assist? When can it be counterproductive and so on?

[01:13:19] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. Um, personally, I generally am not encouraging people to stack medicines. Um, I don't, I don't think that is always the case, but like, I think when you start stacking.

[01:13:33] Tools and spirits, um, you need some mastery. You better know what you're doing. And I think that you probably should have an established relationship with each substance before you are doing that yourself or, or condoning someone to do that. Um, because it's, you know, it's kind of like going on a first date with like two women at once or whatever.

[01:13:56] Like, you're not really gonna be able to dial in [01:14:00] and understand what your relationship is with that medicine or that spirit. I know a lot of people swear by it in certain ways. Um, and I do have experience, you know, personally and with select individuals in doing combo like the day before doing ayahuasca.

[01:14:18] Um, and it has been, you know, kind of more potent. I, I, it definitely increases psychoactivity of psychedelics

[01:14:26] Luke Storey: really

[01:14:26] Caitlin Thompson: for sure. You know, I've done combo and then like LSD the next day and definitely like enhances the, the visuals.

[01:14:34] Luke Storey: I, it's like. Polishing the neurotransmitters or, or, or like, yeah. Getting the plaque out of your brain or something, you know what I mean?

[01:14:41] I picture just kind of like polishing the system and then it would make sense that

[01:14:46] Caitlin Thompson: people receptor, yeah, we're just enhancing like receptor expression and thing. You know, I, I suspect there's a dopaminergic boost that comes, you know, downstream from the kembo effects. But, um, so it, it can augment the [01:15:00] psychoactive properties of these things, which for some people might be good.

[01:15:04] I've also had it go the opposite way where, you know, then I'm way too high the next day I've drank, you know, a medium-sized cup and I'm basically, you know, frying, getting like serotonin syndrome and frying out my entire nervous system. And yeah, I just think it can be destabilizing for people when they're mixing all these really powerful tools at once without any sort of baseline of what.

[01:15:30] Each tool has done for them to begin with. I've talked to a number of Bufo practitioners who swear by giving people combo and then Bufo. Um, they insist that the, it kind of removes a lot of the turbulence of the Bufo. Um, but the one concern for me is that, you know, they're often, like, some people are giving people cambo an hour before bfo, like immediately before, [01:16:00] and they're still vomiting from the cambo going into the BFO experience, which to me is, is increasing, you know, risk of asphyxiation.

[01:16:09] Luke Storey: Yikes, that sounds so terrible.

[01:16:11] Caitlin Thompson: Y but it's like a really popular thing. I'm like, just give it 24 hours. Like, fine, you wanna do combo, like clear your, or whatever, do combo the day before. Like it's, it's just give us some time. You know? There's no rush. We don't need to stack everything all at once and just destabilize people.

[01:16:30] Bfo on its own is already incredibly destabilizing, and so I can't even imagine like going through Cambo and then going through BFO all in an hour. And then being sent home and you know, usually integration is lacking for a lot of people that go through that experience. Um, so I'm generally not a fan of stacking those.

[01:16:51] Um, it also can be very dangerous to do BFO and then combo. Um, it doesn't happen to every person, but there is this [01:17:00] phenomena that has been documented enough that it seems to be true for some people and not others for whatever reason, where they do combo after Bufo and, um, they end up in these like multi-day vomiting spells and maybe they're having reactivations as well.

[01:17:20] Um, I've heard from other practitioners that have witnessed it. They said it's really ugly. Every time they've seen it happen, they thought that person was gonna die. Um, you know, anytime you have days of vomiting, you have electrolyte disturbance concerns, which can be fatal. Um, I just don't think it's worth it.

[01:17:39] Like I, I don't, you know, Cambo can clear you out and you can do it in a few days or in, in a week. Like it, it'll still serve its purpose in preparing you for your psychedelic journey, in my opinion. Um, but when you just kind of, you know, punch, punch, punch, um, it feels abusive to me. Abusive not only for the person [01:18:00] receiving, but also to the spirits that are really, really there in like devotion and service to helping people.

[01:18:07] And it just feels like, um, it can be ungrateful to just put all the medicines in one weekend, uh, just to, you know, smack people in the face and make them feel like they got their money's worth or whatever it is.

[01:18:22] Luke Storey: That sounds terrifying. I mean, Buffo doesn't require any help, you know what

[01:18:32] Caitlin Thompson: I mean? And neither does combo.

[01:18:33] That's why I'm like, they're so. Potent on their own. Like why, why would you do that to yourself?

[01:18:40] Luke Storey: What are some of the counter indications with combo? What are the risks involved? Uh, it's, it's not illegal as a controlled substance, I'm assuming.

[01:18:52] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. It's unscheduled. So currently in the US and most parts of the world is, um, not illegal.

[01:18:57] Luke Storey: I mean, it's obviously not the kind of [01:19:00] thing a normal human's gonna be drawn to, uh, abuse or overuse, right. It's not, it's not a very pleasant experience. And I know people say, well, psychedelics aren't, you know, addictive, but there are people that abuse, uh, yeah. Psychedelics, you know, but it doesn't, it doesn't seem like combo would have that issue.

[01:19:17] So maybe it's able to exist under the radar of the authorities because of that. Right.

[01:19:22] Caitlin Thompson: I think it's also still just so new, you know, it wasn't even introduced into the West until the mid eighties by Peter Gorman. So I think it's just still very underground and fringe, but it could become criminalized.

[01:19:34] And I think it is starting to become on the radar. It's growing. Um, you know, as far as contraindications, we're still really learning what those are. 'cause like I said, in the jungle, they don't. Ask those questions. They don't have these health conditions. They don't, they're not on medications and things like that.

[01:19:54] Um, combo is remarkably compatible with a whole array of [01:20:00] pharmaceutical medicines, which a lot of people, um, aren't expecting, right? Because they, they know with ayahuasca, oh, I can't be on an SSRI, I can't be on a benzo, whatever. Um, but that's actually not the case with Cambo. So in a way, it's a very accessible medicine no matter where somebody is at in their medical journey most of the time.

[01:20:19] And it is, yeah, remarkably safe. Even for people with really fragile health. I've served so many people with, you know, multiple sclerosis and Lyme disease and, you know, just really severe chronic issues. Um, and you do have to approach them differently for their safety, but the substance itself, um, can be really supportive.

[01:20:41] Even someone who's, you know, wheelchair bound and things like that, what we. Kind of know so far, um, around medications is mostly it appears that drugs that, um, interact with the opioid system have the most [01:21:00] interaction with combo, at least from my experience and my observation. And this makes sense because, you know, the secretion contains peptides that have very powerful opioid binding effects.

[01:21:11] Um, so when I've worked with people that are, you know, on Suboxone, maybe they're trying to like, um, wean down onto Creto or something, or people that are taking creto, you know, people that are on, um, low dose naltrexone, things like that. Any sort of opioid, um, activity, they can be very sensitive to the combo.

[01:21:31] You know, you give them one point and the, the stuff coming out of them is like really dark and nasty. Um, and they're just get slammed by these like, single points. I've seen that consistently. Um, so I do feel like opioid, uh, activity can, you know, augment the effects of cambo. What's interesting as well is I've seen.

[01:21:53] Drugs that have opioid binding activity show similar effects. So ketamine, which has some [01:22:00] kappa opioid binding affinity and um, iga, also Kappa opioid. And there is a phenomena, um, that, and when people kind of have freshly taken one of those substances, they can present very similarly to someone that I would expect to like be on an opiate or like Suboxone or something like that.

[01:22:21] Now here's where the five M-E-O-D-M-T is quite interesting. Um, so, you know, it's not categorized as an opiate obviously, but it does bind to the Sigma one receptor. I don't know if you're familiar with this.

[01:22:35] Luke Storey: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:35] Caitlin Thompson: It's, it's part of where all the, um, immune modulating properties of DMTN, NDMT and five M Eeo DMT come from.

[01:22:43] But what's interesting about this Sigma one receptor is that initially it was categorized as an opiate receptor, which is why it has like the Greek naming, like the, you know, the Delta opioid and the um, mu opioid. But then later [01:23:00] they decided it was like its own thing, but they had originally categorized as as such because um, they found that it did bind to some opiate drugs.

[01:23:09] So my theory and why there is an interaction between five M-E-D-M-T and Cambo sometimes in some individuals, I'm wondering if. Five is causing some sort of confirmational protein change in the receptor of the fi of the sigma one receptor. And perhaps some of these opioid peptides from the cambo are interacting with that receptor in some way, which makes sense because they're opioid binding molecules.

[01:23:40] So they might be interacting with the Sigma one. And I would love to find this out. I would love to find a third party lab and, and explore that more. But I think that could be the connection between the reactions that you're seeing on the people that are doing the five and then the cambo shortly after, and then having these like violent reactivation bar [01:24:00] fest for several days on end.

[01:24:01] Luke Storey: Oh my god. Sounds like a nightmare.

[01:24:03] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah.

[01:24:05] Luke Storey: Even when you have, uh. Five MEO reactivation, or as I call it, night school. It can be terrifying. Even if you feel really good physically. I can't imagine you wake up in the middle of the night, it's 2:00 AM and you're like in a full buffo journey and also puking your guts out.

[01:24:22] That does not sound fun.

[01:24:24] Caitlin Thompson: No, no. Yeah. And so the, you know, as far as medications go, combo plays nice with almost anything. People can be on antidepressants, they can be on, um, you know, benzos and Xanax and things like that. Um, they can also be on steroids and, um, immunosuppressive drugs, which it's not my favorite 'cause you're gonna augment the immune system.

[01:24:47] And so you, you need to be strategic about that. But as far as health conditions, you know, there's a few kind of agreed upon contraindications, but I've gotta be honest, I think they're [01:25:00] mostly theoretical, right? They're kind of like, well, let's not fuck with that. Um, you know, history of heart attack or stroke or pulmonary embolism, things like that.

[01:25:10] Um. You know, some people consider a lot of conditions contraindicated that I don't necessarily consider contraindicated, for example, seizures. Um, some people might say you don't serve someone with seizures. When I think about like the pharmacology of cambo, again, I know there's strong opioid effects, and I know that opioids are notorious for dramatically reducing, like, um, glutamate signaling and glutamate signaling is largely what drives the cytotoxic cascades that create seizures.

[01:25:45] And so just from a mechanistic perspective, I'm like, I don't know that cambo really is going to enhance someone's ability to have a seizure. Perhaps the opposite. And I've definitely never seen it in my practice. So for me, that's [01:26:00] not a contraindication. Um, you know, while I, I definitely exercise caution and encourage everyone to really, you know, feel into how qualified they are to take on certain cases.

[01:26:12] You know, same thing with bipolar disorder. Um, some people that are diagnosed as bipolar do not really have, you know, proper manic episodes. And that is really the main concern is that you can kind of stimulate someone into an abundance of dopaminergic transition transmission and then their. Gonna have some sort of like psychotic break or, or manic behavior.

[01:26:38] That definitely is a concern and a contraindication in my mind. But if somebody is just depressed, and I always kind of question people's bipolar diagnosis anyways, because sometimes I'm like, I don't know how bipolar they really are. You know, I think people get slapped on with those labels. I've worked with a lot of bipolar people successfully, and I work really cautiously and [01:27:00] gently with them, and they don't get pushed into manic episodes.

[01:27:03] Um, I wouldn't work with someone's schizophrenic, um, or on like a anti-psychotic medication because of an ongoing battle of psychosis. For me, that would be a clear contraindication. I would not serve someone who's pregnant. Um, just 'cause we don't know enough about what the effects of the fetus could be.

[01:27:22] There are potential abortive effects that can happen in like, late stage pregnancy, especially, not so much early stage. There is a rumor that they use, you know, cambo as an abortive in the jungle, but not really. Um, it doesn't work very well in early pregnancy and, uh, I don't think that they really think about aborting children on purpose in the jungle, you know?

[01:27:45] Uh, so definitely don't recommend anybody, you know, use cambo for that. Yeah. You know, and with autoimmune conditions. Largely, I've seen it immune modulate people and help them significantly, but [01:28:00] there is an immune boosting aspect to cambo. And if that is not, you know, modulated and regulated appropriately, it can augment, um, you know, your immune response in certain ways.

[01:28:14] And that definitely happens with me and my lupus. And I have to be very careful about how I use Cambo and other immunogenic substances, even probiotics, um, things like that. If I do a bunch of cambo, I will start to feel, you know, my nervous system become inflamed and, um, some of my like, lupus symptoms to kind of get augmented.

[01:28:36] So like everything, I think balance is really key, but Cambo is remarkably compatible with so many different conditions, so many different medications and so many states of health. And I'll just emphasize again, the importance of the practitioner's experience, their training, probably medical knowledge.

[01:28:57] 'cause like you're basically operating as an [01:29:00] unlicensed medical provider in some way, if we're honest here. Um, and yeah, their, their ability to evaluate and customize the approach with each person is absolutely critical because a lot of these trainings are pumping out these like cookie cutter. Protocol trained practitioners, which is really no different than just allopathic medicine, right?

[01:29:23] Like, oh, the clinical trial. We use this dosage for this disease. And that's how we're still thinking about cambo sometimes when we really need to be tuning into the individual, um, listening closely, doing things like test points so that we can evaluate people's sensitivity and make informed choices about dosage and be trauma informed as well, and, and not just kind of punching people into the ground and putting their body and their psychology in a contracted, you know, stress response that's gonna be counterproductive for their [01:30:00] healing.

[01:30:01] Luke Storey: What about the effects on addiction, whether it be opiates or, in my case nicotine.

[01:30:10] Caitlin Thompson: I've seen it work really well for addiction. Um, I've definitely had clients who have used it for smoking cessation. I will say it hasn't worked for me, but the thing about, I, I have the same problem. Um, the thing about addiction is, right, it's like there's a chemical aspect of it always.

[01:30:29] Um, but you also have to want to quit, right? You have to really, really want to rewire your habitual. That's why

[01:30:37] Luke Storey: I haven't quit nicotine. I, it's like. Part of me that wants to, but a bigger part that doesn't.

[01:30:43] Caitlin Thompson: A hundred percent. I feel you. Um, so I think

[01:30:46] Luke Storey: it's like the cost to benefit ratio, right? Yeah. I mean there's, there's a large category of mind altering substances that I will never touch my entire life because they were so problematic.

[01:30:56] But then there are some that are kind of in a more [01:31:00] gray area in terms of my relationship with them.

[01:31:03] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes you try to like, well, could I just mitigate the, you know, damage so that I could keep enjoying these cigarettes or

[01:31:10] Luke Storey: with nicotine? It's been so, uh, kind of, uh, affirming in, in a bad way.

[01:31:15] There. There's a lot of great research coming out now with nicotine in terms of spike proteins and I mean, all kinds of stuff that I see in the telegram realm in telegram health, you know what I mean? I'm like, wow, it turns out nicotine is really good for you in a lot of ways. Probably not if you overuse it, but, you know, that's the thing.

[01:31:32] It's like poison or medicine a hundred percent. The dose, the intention, your background, all of those things, you know?

[01:31:39] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. It, I mean, it's super complicated, right? Like our relationship with substances, it's, is not black and white. Um, so when it comes to addiction, it's, I think if someone has a really clear intention that they want to change that aspect of their life, then cambo can, you know, scramble, [01:32:00] um, the, the grooves a bit and give you that temporary spaciousness to like forge a new pattern.

[01:32:07] But like you said, if a part of you just wants to keep doing it, which I feel you, um, it's not gonna happen. You know, it's not gonna magically do it for you.

[01:32:17] Luke Storey: In, in your experience or any, I know the research is limited, but when we look at, um, iboga and then Ibogaine, I mean, there is a lot of clinical data to support people, you know, not only, um.

[01:32:32] Being freed of addiction, but facilitating a more easeful withdrawal experience.

[01:32:38] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah.

[01:32:39] Luke Storey: You know, which is like with opiates as a former opiate addict, I can attest that once you get past a certain point, you really don't feel it. You're just trying to stay well and once you start getting dope sick, um, I mean there's just about, there's very few things you wouldn't do to get well.

[01:32:58] Right. And that becomes a [01:33:00] barrier to entry on, on getting clean because it's just like, you don't want to go through that three or four days of hell, even though you're not really enjoying it or getting the benefits that you did in the beginning.

[01:33:11] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. Which of

[01:33:12] Luke Storey: course was something like heroin or very short-lived, you know?

[01:33:15] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah.

[01:33:16] Luke Storey: It goes from like fun to not fun pretty quick.

[01:33:20] Caitlin Thompson: Mm.

[01:33:20] Luke Storey: But I know there's people that are addicts, um, especially with opiates listening that are like, yeah, this sucks. I can't get out just because I can't get through that first couple days. Yeah. And so, you know, I think with Iboga Iboga and things like this, I mean, I've not experienced it, but I have met people firsthand that are like, yeah, I went in and I barely even notice the detox.

[01:33:39] I'm like in a journey and I walk out and I'm detoxed and not dope sick. And now I have like, at least a couple day head start towards sobriety. Have you seen anything similar to that with Combo?

[01:33:51] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, it definitely can help mitigate the, you know, opioid withdrawals. Um, I think it needs to be used very carefully [01:34:00] for that purpose.

[01:34:01] Ideally even like very, very low doses, perhaps even like twice a day for a couple days under supervision. You know, you have to make sure that someone doesn't sneak off to the bathroom and use, you know, have a weak moment. Um. You know, using other tools like, you know, electrolyte supplementation and, and maybe NAD plus like subcutaneous or IV or whatever to support them.

[01:34:27] But yeah, it can be done. Um, and you know, the, the peptides Inca do have such really powerful opioid effects that they, they bind, you know, more, more securely than most other opiate molecules. So I imagine that they would kind of displace, um, other opiate drugs that are in the system and probably kind of correct some, that whole system of receptors, uh, in a way that kind of restores some balance and mitigates those [01:35:00] withdrawals.

[01:35:00] But yeah, it'd be great if we could actually research this stuff and have data on it because, you know, anecdotes are awesome and we have so many of them with cambo, you know, hundreds of thousands, millions of people have taken combo at this point. Um, but we just don't have any data and a lot of people don't take something seriously until there's data.

[01:35:22] Luke Storey: Yeah. Meanwhile, someone like you has thousands of subjective experiences or objective, you know, bearing a witness to miraculous inexplainable healing experiences for people. I imagine that must be frustrating at times when there's, you know, you can't just go to PUB Mad and be like, see, see, I told you, this is what I've been seeing for years.

[01:35:45] Caitlin Thompson: I mean, I have data too, and I can't get that published either, so, right. Yeah, it's, um, sometimes it can, you know, you feel like you're fighting the good fight, but, um, it's a journey and I'm enjoying it. So,[01:36:00]

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[01:37:25] And here's what's up. They taste delicious too. I am obsessed with this stuff. Try it for yourself and find out at real provisions.com/luke. Tell me about, uh, what people will find@combospecialists.com is this training for wouldbe practitioners.

[01:37:45] Caitlin Thompson: So we have educational resources for every person on the spectrum, whether you are combo curious, um, maybe you're already engaged with combo, you wanna self-administer or maybe you're, uh, ready to step into a [01:38:00] practitioner role.

[01:38:01] We basically got your back from start to finish. Um, we just launched a new ebook called What the Frog Is Combo And Am I Ready? Which I think is important because it, you know, it's a 22 page ebook document that really takes someone through everything that they need to know to properly evaluate. Whether cambo is a modality that fits their needs.

[01:38:23] Um, and it helps them, you know, make responsible choices around choosing a practitioner, evaluating their readiness, understanding informed consent, and you know, what's likely to happen. So I'm encouraging anyone listening, if you're curious about Cambo, check that out. It's like seven bucks, you know, it's like a cup of coffee and it can help you make or break your combo experience by, you know, choosing a practitioner wisely and just making sure that you are fully prepared.

[01:38:51] Um, we have some mini courses too, if you're interested in like, diving deep on the, uh, pharmacology of combo's, peptides and the [01:39:00] science that does exist in the literature. What we know, what we don't know, there's many courses on that. There's many courses on the history of combo. Um, we have self-administration courses, so if someone's feeling ready to, you know, start their more personal relationship with combo.

[01:39:15] And then we have in-person courses, um, for combo practitioner training. 'cause that's not something that you can really learn online. There has to be a lot of practical application. Um, and we actually have a coupon code for any of your listeners if they wanna uh Oh, awesome. The discount. Yeah. It's LS 10.

[01:39:37] Life stylist or Luke story depending on what you prefer. Uh, and I'll give you guys 10% off. So LS 10.

[01:39:44] Luke Storey: Okay,

[01:39:44] Caitlin Thompson: cool. You can put that in and you know, just a little discount. So,

[01:39:47] Luke Storey: and I appreciate that and we'll link that. Uh, and everything we talked about, that's linkable@lukestory.com slash combo. Uh, what about, uh, I wanna dig into some of the other [01:40:00] ailments that you've seen.

[01:40:02] Uh, people get results with. Something that comes to mind just 'cause it's close to home is allergies, which is a huge issue for people here in Texas. There's not like a allergy season. Every season here is, is allergy season. They're just a different one.

[01:40:17] Caitlin Thompson: Mm-hmm.

[01:40:18] Luke Storey: My wife has never had allergies in her life.

[01:40:20] We moved here and it's like, I mean, it's bad sometimes. Is that something you've had any, um, experience with just as one random example?

[01:40:29] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, I think for some people they find cambo can improve their allergies. Um, but if I'm honest, I think it could potentially go either way. I have seen that if someone overuses combo.

[01:40:42] I do think it can augment like mast cell activity and you know, if someone's like regularly using Campbell all the time, especially in lower doses, like the micro doses, sometimes people can develop like rashes, um, and like, you know, [01:41:00] sensitivities to foods that and stuff like that. So again, everything in balance.

[01:41:04] But I haven't heard of a few stories of people saying that their seasonal allergies improved a lot. Um, probably 'cause you know, I'm sure like the gut microbiome and um, just all the immune modulation that can happen with cambo and clearing pathogens and chronic infections and things like that could potentially result in, you know, later cascades of like immune modulation.

[01:41:30] I don't really know for sure though because you know, as a practitioner you see people in these like vulnerable moments and then you check in on them, you know, a few days later they maybe tell you something amazing, but you don't really know what, what's happening in their life three months later, six months

[01:41:49] Luke Storey: later.

[01:41:49] Right. You don't have the longitudinal study capacity with people.

[01:41:53] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, I mean at least with the study we did actually look at three months, but we didn't ask them about allergies. Um, [01:42:00] so that would be really cool to look at too. But yeah, I guess I don't really know for sure. And what I do know also is that it's not always consistent, right?

[01:42:10] Like sometimes. People get certain types of results and other times people will get other types of results. And it's a bit of a mixed bag. And that's part of why I like it. 'cause it's like novel and, and unpredictable in a way. Um, but you never really know how things are gonna unfold for somebody. But I generally don't see people get worse in their health.

[01:42:33] Luke Storey: What about, uh, Lyme disease? That seems to be one that people are really mystified by and they're, you know, now with the kind of prevalence of alternative modalities, there's a lot of different things I hear about in the periphery that people are having success with, but because of our bioindividuality, it doesn't seem like there's a one size fits all.

[01:42:53] Same with cancer, right? It's like,

[01:42:55] Caitlin Thompson: yeah.

[01:42:55] Luke Storey: I mean, I don't think I would ever get chemo or radiation, but I've known people that have [01:43:00] had that and walked away cancer free and they're stoked. And some people it's made them worse. And I know people that have done every alternative modality in the world and still succumb to cancer.

[01:43:11] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah.

[01:43:11] Luke Storey: And others that did the one thing, the apricots or whatever, and they're good. You know, it's just, I know that it's very unpredictable, but Lyme disease seems to be one that's becoming more prevalent and really difficult to treat.

[01:43:24] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, I, so from my experience, Cambo is very effective for. Increasing the quality of life and, you know, people that have Lyme disease, um, you know, I, does it eradicate the bacteria?

[01:43:36] I don't know. Do I even believe personally that the bacteria is the full story? No, I see Lyme disease more as an immune dysfunction syndrome that is often accompanied by an a bacterial infection. And, you know, sometimes you see these co-infections, oftentimes Epstein-Barr virus is implicated as well. So I don't know how much I really believe in like an eradication [01:44:00] approach as being the solution.

[01:44:01] Yeah, you do need to have like a reasonable microbial load. And if you're, if you're immune compromised, um, because of stress or trauma or de deficiency or whatever, then you're gonna become a sitting duck for organisms to throw a party. And until you have boundaries in your body and probably also your life, um, you're not going to be able to say like, Hey, you guys can't just grow to this proportion and take all my resources, like, like fuck off, you know?

[01:44:33] And um, so cavo, it does have this immunogenic effect, right? It's gonna boost the immune function, which I do think enhances the body's ability to like actually, uh, hold boundaries with pathogens in a way that maybe is out of whack once people are kind of in the full blown spiral of chronic illness. Um, so I don't.

[01:44:57] I think it's necessarily that the cambo [01:45:00] has these like direct antimicrobial effects because even though there are peptides that show that like the derma pepins, the quantity of them that get through into the bloodstream and then get distributed to where pathogens actually live, there's probably not a lot of direct contact happening.

[01:45:20] So I think there's more of like a, an indirect augmentation of your body's own immune intelligence, which I would argue is probably better anyways. Um, so I, I do think that it helps people clear out infections and find like a homeostatic balance with, you know, harmonizing with, um, organisms in their body and restoring like intelligent immune function because that's really what's gone wrong in these types of syndromes.

[01:45:50] It's that, you know, the immune system's underactive in certain areas and then it's overactive in other areas and it's super confused about what's friend, what's [01:46:00] foe,

[01:46:00] Luke Storey: right?

[01:46:00] Caitlin Thompson: It's attacking your tissue. You know, there is an inherent autoimmune element to things like Lyme disease and all these kind of chronic infection related, um, immune dysfunctional syndromes.

[01:46:10] And, you know, I think that's mostly what drives these type of, um, illnesses for people is like the downstream immune function and then the bacteria calm because nobody's telling them to get out. And it's a bit of a snowball effect. So. You know, cambo is really effective on a physiological level for addressing those things.

[01:46:32] But the piece that I think is the most important is actually the psychosomatic aspect. Um, I'm sure you might have a similar experience where when you interact with people that have chronic illness, almost always there is an undercurrent of, um, trauma and, and emotional pain, right? Which then leads to like nervous system dysfunction and, and [01:47:00] dysregulation and your vagal nerves all screwed up.

[01:47:02] And then all of that's like these downstream cascades of immune dysfunction, immune compromisation. 'cause that's what we know stress response does, right? It, it shuts down the digestion. You're not getting nutrients, it shuts down the, uh, immune function shuts off reproduction. None of those are essential when you're running from the lion.

[01:47:20] So if you're a child living hyper vigilantly in a house that feels unsafe or whatever, um, your, your nervous system is going to just be in this like chronic sympathetic overdrive all the time. And that's what I see in all these people that have Lyme disease and, you know, all these chronic illnesses, they almost always share that in common.

[01:47:42] And what I've seen with Cabo is that if you do not address that components of your illness, you will not get better. I've seen people with pristine diets, they've done IV antibiotics, they're on all the supplements, [01:48:00] all the, you know, most expensive modalities. But what they haven't done is actually taken responsibility for taking their own agency back, right?

[01:48:11] And, and actually acknowledging like where they're not confronting their own pain, that is then trapped in the nervous system and continuing to perpetuate these maladaptive signals to the rest of your physiology. And it makes sense. Your brain is like the master controller, right? Of all these downstream systems.

[01:48:33] So it, it's not really woo, you know, it, it might sound like that to people, but there's clear documented mechanisms of action on scientific level of how trauma and stress and nervous system activation, you know, lead to, you know, immune dysfunction and, um, illnesses and nutritional deficiencies, yada, yada, yada.

[01:48:56] So when people come and expect cambo [01:49:00] to fix them, they say, oh, I heard it cures Lyme disease. It's gonna fix me. They don't get better unless they actually are willing to look at the deeper piece of like, I don't feel safe in my body. I don't feel like I deserve love. I feel hypervigilant all the time. Uh, you know, whatever, just insert whatever reason here.

[01:49:23] But part of being a good practitioner is helping someone kind of excavate that stuff. 'cause they might show up to you, Hey, I wanna treat my Lyme disease. But you need to be able to guide them without invalidating them or gaslighting them, or, you know, making them come up with a made up spiritual or emotional reason.

[01:49:45] But you need to help them explore the deeper parts of their psyche so they can actually like access these things. Bring that to the forefront of their ceremony and address that in their [01:50:00] experience. Because that's when people get better. When they really kind of go, like digging deep. They pull out these like, you know, root these seeds of their pain and they actually like acknowledge them, witness them, and let them sort of neutralize and dissipate.

[01:50:16] Then the nervous system can finally be retrained into feeling safe, into feeling peace. The vagal nerve response can normalize and then all the downstream stuff will follow. So. That's something I really, you know, encourage people. If you're, if you're looking for any medicine to, um, heal you, you need to take responsibility for your part in this and, and find your power, find your agency.

[01:50:47] 'cause you cannot move forward in your healing until you restore a sense of control to navigating your own life and your wellness.

[01:50:57] Luke Storey: That's beautiful. So important. [01:51:00] I mean, I know many people that have tried all the things, you know, it's like nothing works. And I suspect that, um, it's very common that there are psychological, spiritual, nervous system issues blocking it.

[01:51:16] But what you um, kind of made me think of was with some of the other plant medicines and so on that uh, are not known to physically heal you. People commonly have these miraculous healings just because they got in and dealt with their trauma or had a really profound mystical experience. You know, I mean, even some people that have NDEs and they have terminal cancer and they come back and the cancer just melts off their body in two days, it's like,

[01:51:44] Caitlin Thompson: wow.

[01:51:45] Luke Storey: You know, it's not, it's not because they did something on the gross physical level, it's because they accessed a certain level of consciousness or had a direct, um, and undeniable experience with God, right? And they come back and all of a sudden, as you said, [01:52:00] downstream, the body's like, oh, okay, now I have some room to do what I'm supposed to do.

[01:52:04] I had an interesting experience like that. Actually, just thought of the last time, which might just be the last time, famous last words. I sat with ayahuasca a couple years ago after not having done sofa a couple years before that. And I was like, I thought I was done before. And I was like, well, you know, it just, I felt called, right?

[01:52:24] So I went and had a ceremony and, um, it was actually very much like combo. I, I just like no discernible psychoactive effects. I just got really, really, really sick and super sweaty.

[01:52:41] Caitlin Thompson: Oh,

[01:52:41] Luke Storey: and I thought for a minute, I mean, my wife was next to me. I almost had her call 9 1 1. I thought like we might have a problem.

[01:52:48] Houston situation, you know, thankfully she's an adept healer and held space for me, and I was able to breathe through it and I thought, I remember walking back to my, my [01:53:00] room and, um, telling her, I said, so I don't forget this tomorrow, just mark my words. I'm never drinking ayahuasca ever again. It was a nightmare.

[01:53:13] Fast forward, whatever next day, drank some chuma, got back in my body, everything was fine. But what was interesting about that is, you know, it was one of those situations where I thought, oh, nothing happened. Right? Because I wa you know, I wasn't getting downloads, I wasn't solving any problems, no information was being revealed to me.

[01:53:30] No, uh, memories coming back that I had forgotten that needed to be addressed and all that kind of stuff. So nothing had really happened, but I was having for, I don't know, two, three years before that, pretty reoccurring vertigo where I just be driving or what, doing whatever. And I was just kind of like brain foggy and dizzy and kind of nauseous feeling.

[01:53:50] And I went to a couple neurologists, I looked into it. No one could really figure out what was going on after that night. Until this moment right now, knock on wood, [01:54:00] I have never once had anything close to that vertigo feeling ever again.

[01:54:05] Caitlin Thompson: Hmm.

[01:54:05] Luke Storey: So it's like, and I also didn't have a discernible spiritual experience or any kind of insights that would, um, help make space for my body to heal.

[01:54:15] I really think that ayahuasca in its innate wisdom knew what it needed to do in my body and almost acted like combo in a sense where it physically healed me without me having, knowing the mechanism of action or what it even was, like what the cause of it was, you know? So I walked outta that going damn respect.

[01:54:34] It's really a case of, um, these medicines are just. They're beyond our comprehension and the way that they work, you know? So it's like, I can see how somebody working with combo going in with a, a very concrete goal in terms of something they want to heal physically, but not having the capacity or willingness to address the psychospiritual and emotional part.

[01:54:57] It not working. And you can [01:55:00] also go in and work with psychoactive medicines and have nothing happen and it heals you physically. It's crazy.

[01:55:06] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. These things are far more intelligent,

[01:55:08] Luke Storey: not wild.

[01:55:09] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah.

[01:55:09] Luke Storey: I mean, I'm gonna tell you, you're, you know, you're deeply steeped in this. But that one was a huge lesson for me and just like, wow, dude, don't, don't have expectations.

[01:55:17] A and don't write something off because it didn't go how you want it to go, you know? 'cause I wanted the thing, right. You know, that thing, it's very specific to DMT. There's a, there's a, a realm, there's a range there. I really like it in there. You know, when I couldn't get there, I was pissed. Plus I just felt so, so terrible.

[01:55:37] But, you know, I walked away humbled and grateful to have been, um, to have been healed of that issue. With having zero intentionality around that.

[01:55:46] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, I, you know, it's funny 'cause I've seen some bit of the opposite happen with Canva, where, you know, it is known for being so physical and I think people can often disregard the spiritual or emotional piece.

[01:55:59] 'cause they're [01:56:00] like, ah, it's not even a psychedelic. And so often I have people come for physical detox or physical healing, and then, you know, when it's over, they're on the mat crying and telling me about their childhood and all this stuff comes to the surface that they weren't expecting. And they have these surprisingly spiritual and emotional experiences that they were totally not prepared for at all

[01:56:27] Luke Storey: and not what they signed up for.

[01:56:29] Caitlin Thompson: No. But you know, like these things, they often give us what we need and not what we want. Yeah. And, um, sometimes it looks different.

[01:56:38] Luke Storey: Do you, do you think that, um, God or consciousness, you know, works through these substances? How much of it is God that created it? And how much of it is the innate intelligence, say of a toad or of a frog, or of this vine or this plant?

[01:56:56] You know, and I know people that are more aligned [01:57:00] in the traditional viewpoint of various plant medicines would say, oh no, it's, it's the plant that has that intelligence or the spirit for me. Still, that's a little bit of a stretch. It feels more to me like God has a language. Right. And, and some of the way that it expresses itself through its language, for lack of a better term, just winging this is like, it might speak through that cactus in a way that makes it seem to me that that cactus is communicating with me.

[01:57:35] But there's kind of a, a conductor, right? That's like using that cactus as a tool that I can interface with. But I, I see it more as the conductor, that's the one that's doing the knowing and doing the doing and the, that the plant or tote or whatever it is, is, is kind of the conduit for consciousness.

[01:57:55] That's sort of where I arrived at it in this moment. What's your take on that [01:58:00] perspective?

[01:58:00] Caitlin Thompson: Well, it's pretty heady. Um, I would ask what's the difference between you and I talking as being conduits of God consciousness, right. For me, if we're gonna go there, I think, um, consciousness and source is, it's a bit like a tree, right?

[01:58:18] There is one source and then it can kind of go in branches. And that's where I think like things like demi gods or plant spirits, or even just phy, phylogenetic, branches of nature. Um. There are different sort of, um, concentrations and branches of God playing puppet with all these little creatures that he's made with matter.

[01:58:41] He, she they, whatever. Um, and yeah, so do I think that like these individual plants have spirit and intelligence? Yes. And they are conduits for God, consciousness, [01:59:00] right, for source. But in the same way that you and I are, right? Like we have our own consciousness, we have our own sense of self, at least currently being alive as this human body.

[01:59:10] Um, but at the end of the day, we're all still the little puppet skin pulled around, you know? And that's the cool thing about being alive and, and being, um, an organism, right? Is like we're all just little bits of God interacting with itself. I just imagine like, you know, God just playing puppets like with itself.

[01:59:33] Um, and that's the beauty of it. And in matter, you know, chemistry and biology and these intricate mechanisms of biology, they're all, they're all the, the language, like you said, that God uses to code, um, the world. That it's created for itself to be entertained and, and connected, um, just for the sake of existing, right?

[01:59:58] So. The [02:00:00] answer is yes. And you know, it's like, I do think that they have their own personalities. I do think that they have their own flaws. I think that they have their own agendas. I've gotten some really weird downloads before and, and I'm not like the type of per, I don't like sit there and do light language and like, I have a download.

[02:00:19] I need to tell everyone. Like I'm generally, you know, pretty down to earth about those things. But I haven't gotten really concrete messages before when like Cabo and Ayahuasca specifically are having. Temporary disagreements. Um, 'cause normally I find them to be allies and I got this like, just clear message one time that they were in a little bit of a tiff and they had disagreement about how to move forward dealing with the humans and a little bit of ego.

[02:00:53] Like I sensed there was a little bit of ego involved, um, where they were a bit proud and they were like, no, we're gonna do it this way. [02:01:00] And like, stupid combo, you think it's better to do this way? And I actually felt like I got punished once in a, in a ayahuasca ceremony because it could feel the frog in me.

[02:01:09] Um, very much like, oh,

[02:01:11] Luke Storey: oh, interesting.

[02:01:11] Caitlin Thompson: Integrated. And, and it took it out on me. And then I was like, what the hell is that about? And that's when I kind of got this very sophisticated picture shown to me that there was a diplomatic disagreement happening. Um, and it just made me like, realize and appreciate how complex and dynamic these beings can be.

[02:01:33] 'cause you know, even though they might be closer to source in certain ways, they're still, they're still individualized to some capacity because they're not just the white light anymore. Yeah, right. Yeah. So they do have some sort of identities and personalities and sense of self, so I very much believe that that's true.

[02:01:51] Um, but yeah, if you just keep following, you know, the, the tree branches down. They all lead to the trunk at the end of the day.

[02:01:58] Luke Storey: Beautifully said. [02:02:00] I appreciate that. Uh, Caitlyn, I got one more question for you. Are you ready?

[02:02:04] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah.

[02:02:05] Luke Storey: It's a three parter. Okay. Who have been, who have been three teachers or teachings in general that have made you who you are today?

[02:02:13] Caitlin Thompson: Mm. One of 'em, without a doubt would be one of my indigenous maestros, Johnny Java, who sadly passed away about two years ago, unexpectedly. And yeah, just, um, witnessing him and his connection to the frogs and to his family and just the, the deep to humility and integrity and care and love, um, that he emanated in this world really has touched me.

[02:02:44] And I continue to be close with his family and, um, continue to co-create good things with them. So, um, I definitely hold a special place in my heart for him. You know, it's funny because a lot of the teachers I've had have taught me how not [02:03:00] to be, um, which I guess is valuable too. I've learned a lot from my cambo teachers of how I don't wanna move through this world.

[02:03:11] Um, I'm not gonna name them obviously. Um. Yeah, I just, you know, sometimes seeing the damage that can be done, when ego does get involved, it can inspire you to show up differently for your students. And it does still to this day. And, you know, actually, strangely enough, um, you, Rick Dolin, you know, he is a friend of mine, he is the, the founder of Maps.

[02:03:35] He really inspires me, uh, as far as like how to create actionable impact, um, in a field, in a space in the public's eye. And I really, in a lot of ways aspire to be like the Rick Doblin of the Cambo space. Um, 'cause I just see the dedication and, and just, you know, grit that he brings [02:04:00] to. Persevering through all of the challenges to make psychedelic medicines accessible.

[02:04:05] And that's something I, I admire and want to channel into the work that I do to continue to steward the inevitable expansion of combo with grace, with respect, with reverence, and with integrity. Um, you know, as this medicine grows, you know, we have a responsibility to, um, engage in reciprocity, uh, not only with the Amazonian people who stewarded it, but also the frog itself, and make sure that we are informing people and keeping them safe and equipping them to really get the most out of their engagement with this medicine and reduce harm, uh, as much as possible.

[02:04:48] Because this medicine is truly benevolent beyond what I've ever felt with any other, you know, pla spirit or substance. And I think that it's [02:05:00] not that difficult to keep people safe and to do a good job. We just have to kind of come back to our hearts and our, our values. And my, my goal is to support people in reconnecting, um, to their, their self, so that it feels easy to walk a path of integrity while utilizing these medicines.

[02:05:22] Luke Storey: Beautiful.

[02:05:23] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah,

[02:05:23] Luke Storey: that was a good closer.

[02:05:25] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah.

[02:05:26] Luke Storey: Thank you so much for making the time to come out here and see me in Texas. Texas. I, I'm always looking for, uh, and you know, I, I sense your humility, so I know this won't go to your head, but. When it comes to a, an important topic like this, you know, people show up and there's always opportunities to host someone on a podcast, but I'm always kind of waiting for the og.

[02:05:48] Like I, you know, I always, I, I want the person who's most deeply invested in, or experienced in whatever said topic or modality is. So, did we meet through Todd Shipman? [02:06:00] Do you know Todd?

[02:06:01] Caitlin Thompson: Uh, yeah. I was the first person to serve him. Okay. Yeah, he took one of my courses

[02:06:04] Luke Storey: though, so, yeah, I, I think he was the one that recommended, uh, you to me.

[02:06:09] Oh, cool. And, um, yeah. And so, uh. I, I'm sure I asked him like, yeah, but is it the, is it, is she the one, you know, like, I want the og, I want the most badass. You know, so you definitely delivered that. I appreciate your dedication. Oh,

[02:06:22] Caitlin Thompson: thank

[02:06:22] Luke Storey: you. Yeah, I appreciate your dedication to the work and, um, you know, walking with integrity in this space, it's, you know, it's unregulated.

[02:06:30] Things are wonky and you know, I really appreciate when someone has the reverence that you do. So thank you.

[02:06:35] Caitlin Thompson: Thank you. And, uh, thanks so much for the opportunity. I am, I feel that, you know, this information needs to be shared. Um, the, the frogs out of the bag, as they say, and we are at a pivotal moment where we need to inform people about this so that we can preserve our access to this medicine before we mess it up.

[02:06:58] So I [02:07:00] appreciate the platform and, and the ability to kind of have my voice be heard and, um, provide that support to others.

[02:07:10] Luke Storey: And that, my friends, is what we call a wrap. Thanks for hanging out on this week's episode of the Life Stylist. But before I sign off, I want to remind you about one of the best ways to support the show while also upgrading your life. My online master market, that's where I've curated a collection of my favorite lifestyle design products, world class supplements, EMF protection, gear, water purification, blue light solutions, biohacking tech, and tons more.

[02:07:36] And these aren't just random health products. I mean, you can find that on Amazon. I've tested and vetted every item on the site, so if you see it there, it's something I personally use and trust. So if you've ever wondered what brands I actually use day to day or where you can find the gear, I'm always talking about the master market is your one stop resource to check it out.

[02:07:57] Head over to luke [02:08:00] story.com/store, can browse around, pick up some upgrades, and know that every purchase helps this show keep trucking. And the best part is that nearly everything listed there comes with an exclusive discount just for life stylist listeners. So you get cutting edge tools to optimize your mind, body, and spirit, and save some dough in the process.

[02:08:19] Again, that link is luke story.com/store. Get in there and dig around and stock up on the best of the best. And you can click that link right in this episode. Description. Oh, and don't miss the search bar while you're there. That's how you can quickly find exactly what you're looking for without getting lost.

[02:08:37] All right. That's it. Until next time, be well and share this episode with someone you love. Hell share it with someone you're struggling to love because everyone deserves it.

[02:08:48] Caitlin Thompson: This medicine is really powerful. It can absolutely traumatize people and it can hurt people if used incorrectly. Combo is an Amazonian medicine that comes from [02:09:00] the skin secretion of this very specific species of tree frog called the Phyla. Medusa Bicolor. What I have seen is a lot of damn near miraculous outcomes that continue to just blow my mind.

[02:09:13] If somebody wanted could potentially take it through drug development and make it an FDA approved medicine, which might give more people access to healing, it's probably not gonna go mainstream anytime soon. I've had journals be total hostile to me, attack me, say, oh, you guys just wanna get high. And I'm like, did you even read the paper?

[02:09:31] People in the Amazon, it didn't even use it so much as a medicine, it was for magic.

[02:09:45] Luke Storey: Alright, Caitlin, Kaitlyn, walk me through the very first time you had a combo experience. Okay, so I'll preface this story a little bit. Um, with the [02:10:00] first time I ever even heard about combo, and this was in 2011, I was at an ayahuasca center in Iquitos and someone had mentioned this practice to me and I thought.

[02:10:12] Caitlin Thompson: God, that sounds so stupid and dangerous and reckless and crazy. Why would anyone do that? I didn't think much of it. And then a few years later, um, a friend came by and was like, wow, I've been going like so deep with this frog medicine. And I was like, oh, is that the thing I heard about? He's like, yeah. And he told me all about his experience and it was the first time someone had actually told me anything good about combo, uh, you know, other than the, oh, it's terrible.

[02:10:41] You feel like you're dying, you know, all the drama. So I was like, okay, take me with you. And this was in 2015. There really wasn't a lot of people that knew much about combo. There were not a lot of people practicing or serving it. It was a bit obscure and even more fringe than it [02:11:00] is now. And I went to this ceremony in, um, I drove like three hours there with my friend and I didn't really have any expectations.

[02:11:11] I was very much kind of just a young, curious psychological explorer. And I, you know, I knew that there was gonna be burning involved. I knew there was gonna be vomiting involved, but other than that, there, there, there wasn't even a lot of information on the internet at this time. And the whole experience ended up being unexpectedly profound for me.

[02:11:35] And the biggest takeaway that I got from that. First ceremony, um, was trying to kind of reconcile, um, this feeling of like holding an ancestral wound that didn't belong to me. And this was also a time of my life where I was starting to figure out how sick I had actually been from birth. [02:12:00] You know, I was born into this world with chronic fatigue and autoimmune stuff going on, and I always knew that something wasn't right, but it was really around this period of life when Combo came into the picture that I was starting to clue in and acknowledged that, you know, it wasn't normal to sleep 13 hours a day and feel exhausted all the time.

[02:12:20] As someone in my early twenties, and it was KO kind of coming into my life and accidentally. Healing me. That was started to give me contrast. It started to increase my baseline vitality and reduce my pain and improve my energy. And it was within that contrast that I was able to fully acknowledge and, and recognize that I had been very ill for my whole life.

[02:12:48] And I just didn't know because I, my baseline was all that I knew, right? Um, so, you know, later I then discovered I had lupus and Lyme disease [02:13:00] and PTSD and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth and mast cell activation mole exposure. You know, all the things that kind of damn, you know, snowball together.

[02:13:10] Luke Storey: The greatest hits. Yeah. All the things that like to hang out together. Um, and VO really was at that time the most powerful tool, offering relief, offering clarity, um, not just in my physiological health, but also in my spiritual and expansive, you know, wellbeing where I could really understand how the, the psychosomatic aspect of my past had really, um, trickled down into my physiology and manifested this very real physical illness, um, likely from, you know, originating in the nervous system and the emotional body.

[02:13:49] Caitlin Thompson: So that was all kind of how it came into my life. And then it honestly, cambo just took a hold of me and it. Spiraled outta [02:14:00] control in the most beautiful way and just took control of my life. And I am blessed to be in partnership with it. Now, what was the setting, um, for your first experience? What, were you in a room, were you outside?

[02:14:13] Luke Storey: How many doses did you have? Did you do a number of them over the course of a few days? Tell me about the, the details. 'cause many people listening are like, what are you guys even talking about? We'll get there. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, funny enough, you know, I showed up at, um, you know, this was in like Desert Springs, like Palm Springs area, and it was a pretty beat up neighborhood, you know, it looked like there was probably a lot of drugs and stuff and poverty.

[02:14:42] Caitlin Thompson: And then in the middle of this kind of, you know, broken down neighborhood was this beautiful house with like neon colored hummingbird art and, and just beauty. It just like stuck out like a Juul. And I go in and it turns out I actually knew these, uh, medicine women. [02:15:00] They, they're a couple and I, I had been friends with their son and they had made the first, you know, DMT I'd ever smoked.

[02:15:06] So there was already a very strange synchronicity showing up and realizing that I knew these people. Um, you know, they have really wonderful intentions, but again, this was not a time where anyone knew anything about Cambo. So. They did serve in a way that I would definitely not endorse now. There was no real safety protocols that we've come to understand are important now.

[02:15:30] So it was a bit, you know, wild West, um, it was in their living room. There was probably. I dunno, maybe seven, eight people there total, we all kind of hung out on the couch and then would be called up one by one and there was no test point or anything. Um, they just slapped on three points and they give you about five minutes, you know, to kind of purge it out.

[02:15:55] And then they send you back to the couch where you continue purging on your own. Which [02:16:00] again, looking back, I'm like, that's not how I would've organized the ceremony. Um, but I think people just, you know, they just didn't know any different and yeah, you know, one thing they also did was tell me to drink a profuse amount of water, which is also a big no-no.

[02:16:15] And I think I arrived to the ceremony, probably borderline hyponatremia already. Um, having drank like probably six liters of water in the hours leading up to the ceremony, which is, you know, very dangerous and we can talk more about that later. Um, so, but you know, it, it wasn't an emotionally safe space.

[02:16:35] It did feel held in that way. But yeah, just as far as the, the awareness around safety protocols, um, was completely absent. And, you know, it's an evolving practice in the West and it's becoming adapted now to, uh, meet the needs of Westerners. So we need to also educate people and raise the standard of how this medicine is utilized.

[02:16:58] Luke Storey: Beautiful. So that was in [02:17:00] 2015. Yeah. That's funny. That's the year that I first sat with it too. Um, sounds like a similar situation. The one thing I remember about it was the, my friend who brought me, uh, rest in peace, David Soleimani since, uh, has passed away, but he brought me and the whole plan was to go three days in a row and do it three times.

[02:17:25] And at that point, um, I not sat with plant medicines or anything in any intentional way, you know, just reckless youth psychedelics, but hadn't really been on my path at that point. So, and I was sober at the time. Well, I still am. Um, so, you know, I knew that it wasn't psychoactive, but I knew it was kind of in the shamanic plant medicine, indigenous medicine realm.

[02:17:51] So I double checked on that, said, Nope, you don't get high or anything. And, um, we're supposed to go three times and like [02:18:00] after, you know, the hour or whatever it took, I was like, hell no, I'm not going back. And I haven't done it since. Oh. And I've done a, a lot of other things that were probably much more uncomfortable and longer lasting since then.

[02:18:14] But, um, one thing I did notice about it for sure was, um, this. Like diamond mind clarity, that lasted for probably about a week. I remember driving around LA and I, I felt like I was in a video game. Like my mind was so clear and so focused. I thought, man, I wish you could get that without, you know, is there just a pill you could take without having to go through the whole thing?

[02:18:46] But yeah, it was, uh, it definitely left a mark and also open, I think, opened me to, you know, other realms that have been very supportive. Uh, so for people that are new to the topic, give us the [02:19:00] breakdown on, um, we can talk a bit about the history, but just, you know, what is this frog medicine, uh, and, and how you get it in your body.

[02:19:10] I think that's the thing that's probably. Off putting to some people because it involves burning your skin and all the things where, you know, give us the, the 1 0 1 on it and then we can get into the weeds. Yeah, the quick and dirty. So combo is an Amazonian medicine that comes from, uh, the skin secretion of a very specific species of tree frog called the phylo Medusa bicolor.

[02:19:33] Caitlin Thompson: And traditionally, um, this medicine was applied through, you know, transdermal application. Uh, very superficial burns made on the skin, usually the upper arm or the leg. But you know, you really can apply, uh, to most areas of the body. And once the secretion is applied to the burn, it goes very rapidly into the system through the lymphatic system.

[02:19:58] And there are [02:20:00] dozens of bioactive peptide molecules in the secretion. And they produce an array of really potent effects, um, on your physiology. So you're probably gonna feel your heart beating faster and harder. You might get a hot flushing sensation or a vibrational tingling sensations in the fingers.

[02:20:21] Um, mucus getting kind of excreted outta the eyes and nose. Um, sweating is normal, shaking is normal. General kind of mala or fatigue is normal. And facial swelling is also a really common feature of combo, which is important that people know because if the practitioner doesn't tell people, they can panic and think they're having an anaphylactic like allergic reaction.

[02:20:44] And that's not the case. It's, um, it's quite safe and okay. And then nausea, vomiting, um, are keytones of the experience and, you know, people can also release through having bowel movements. Um, fainting is [02:21:00] also possible and, and fairly common. Uh, so yeah, it produces this really potent, quite uncomfortable experience, uh, for about 20 to 30 minutes.

[02:21:11] And, um, you know, despite the, the sort of like outward violence of combo, it actually is very safe on a physical level. The peptides really display little to no toxicity to mammalian or human cells. The LD 50 is very, very, very high, at least in rats. Uh, so even though it looks quite intense, um, this is a practice that has been going on for at least hundreds of years, if not longer.

[02:21:40] Um, and has really, you know, consistently shown that if you take simple measures, it's a very safe process for someone to go through. And this, uh, medicine comes from these frogs, and from what I understand, it's uh, it's an excretion that comes out of their skin. [02:22:00] That I'm assuming they used as a self-defense for things trying to eat them.

[02:22:04] Yeah, definitely. So it's, it's used, you know, um, against predation, but actually primarily what they really utilize it for is I think antimicrobial protection. So there's a bunch of species of frogs right now that are kind of getting taken out by these, you know, kite fungal infections. And the phylo, Medusa bicolor frogs don't seem to have that issue.

[02:22:27] Their populations are in good standing, um, because they just don't fall susceptible to pathogens. 'cause part of the features of some of these peptides is that they're antimicrobial antifungal. So they kind of use it to, you know, rub and distribute all over their body and keep them healthy from pathogens.

[02:22:47] Luke Storey: What a trip. Um, two things that I think are so bizarre about this world is the, the combo frog and the buffo varus toad. I just think it's [02:23:00] nature is so funny. You know, the creator is so funny how it tucks these very unique and potent medicines away in places where you'd really have to look to find it as a human.

[02:23:14] So I always think about, you know, who was, I mean, you can think about like mushrooms, right? It's not that hard to deduce someone was hungry at some point and was like, oh, I'll eat some of this mushroom and next thing you know, they're. Having some sort of mystical experience, but when it comes to combo and buffo both, I always wonder like, who is the first person that's like, Hey, let's try burning our skin, or, you know, let's try smoking this venom.

[02:23:38] It's just such a funny, um, those two discoveries to me are really hilarious in that way. Totally. Especially with bfo. I mean, it's like you have the, the key to consciousness found in one place. You know, this is so bizarre. It makes you really wonder what else is out there, right. I mean, there's, there's so many animal toxins.

[02:23:59] Caitlin Thompson: Just as an [02:24:00] example of that category, so many animal venoms and secretions that have. Totally been not explored at all. And yeah, it makes you really wonder what else is out there and maybe we should be, um, conservative with, you know, our natural environment because it's probably full of medicine. Who were the first people on record to work with combo?

[02:24:23] That is an interesting, um, piece of the puzzle that I continue to try to get down to the bottom of. Um, it depends on who you ask and, you know, most of my indigenous relations are with the mats who are probably the more popularly known for their use of Cambo. Um, but they were likely not the original users.

[02:24:46] Um, recently I kind of got some word from Ames Elder about a story that this tribe called the Maribo, where perhaps the original holders of this medicine. And then they kind of taught [02:25:00] a lot of the neighboring tribes like the Noki Coi, also known as the KAA and the Uni Kun, um yah. And these sort of other neighboring, you know, groups that shared the space with them.

[02:25:13] Um, but there's not really concrete documentation of the origins of Ka and it's something, you know, that was really passed down through. Word of mouth. And I try to ask as many, you know, indigenous elders as I can. But it's tricky because you can literally ask the same individual year after year the same question, and you get different answers.

[02:25:37] Um, and it's hard to say if that's because they're a bit secretive about their origins or they have shifting beliefs or, um, perhaps sometimes there are commercial interests at hand. They wanna steer a narrative. So it can be really hard to know what's really true around the historical context of combo.[02:26:00]

[02:26:00] Luke Storey: What does collecting the medicine look like for the people who go and retrieve these frogs? Are they, are they having to climb trees and is it difficult to catch them or do you just go down to the creek and like, oh, there's a couple, whoop 'em up. It's quite difficult and you know, when you see what it takes to harvest this medicine in the wild, it really helps you appreciate how precious it is and, and what a privilege it is.

[02:26:26] Caitlin Thompson: Um, typically you go out in the night, you know, depends, the frogs can be active at different times, but sometimes they're active at like three in the morning, you know, so you like wake up in the middle of the night, you go out, you call to them, you listen for their response calls so that you can locate them.

[02:26:45] Um, you figure out what tree they're in and. Watching an indigenous person scale a 40 foot tree in the middle of the night. There can be vipers, you know, there's mosquitoes everywhere. They're barefoot and [02:27:00] they climb up there, they find this frog. They'll, they'll kind of pick off the branch so that they don't disturb the frog at all, and then climb down while holding this frog.

[02:27:09] Like maybe the, the branch is in their mouth and they're like carefully climbing down and sometimes you catch the frog and there's no secretion there for you to even receive. Oh, for real. Some of the frogs are duds. Well, yeah, because like they, you know, they need time to regenerate their secretion. So whether they were harvested from already or they actually had to utilize it for a defense, um, they don't always have it.

[02:27:35] And that really helps you recognize that like, oh, this is not something to take for granted. It's dangerous to climb up in the middle of the night and what you get, you know, you might not find a frog that has anything to offer. And even if you do, you still need to leave that frog with some left to defend itself.

[02:27:56] Right. If you, if you wanna do ethical, sustainable harvesting [02:28:00] practices. So once they bring the frog down, and there are different methods of the actual collection, I think most of the traditional way, um, involves the crucifixion. Um, you've probably seen photos and they do. Gently tie the frog's, you know, ankles and wrists and spread it out.

[02:28:21] The frogs look like they're being stretched like a rubber band, but it, they're really not. They're just super lanky. So if you extend their arms, it looks like you're, you know, kind of pulling them tight. Um, and then, you know, there is a certain amount of stress required to get the frog to secrete, right?

[02:28:40] It has to feel agitated and distressed in some capacity. Otherwise it won't, you know, really sit. And sometimes I've seen where they're almost too gentle with the frog. And the frog is like, so chill and it's, it's not really releasing anything. 'cause it doesn't feel in danger in any way. So you gotta find [02:29:00] the balance between not, you know, you have stress a little bit, but you don't wanna be cruel, um, or inhumane.

[02:29:07] And usually this, you know, they scrape off the sweat from its back and put it on like a bamboo palette, some sort of wooden palette. And, um, or you can, you can actually just take it fresh from the frog and apply it to a burn. I've seen certain groups literally take a frog and rub it on the burn, which looks a little uncomfortable for the frog.

[02:29:28] It's like a bar of soap, you know. Um, wow. Some people don't tie the frog, they'll actually just kind of hold it and, and scrape off. Um, but you know, it does seep into your skin when you're touching the frog. You can feel, oh, you know, it, it kind of has a minor effect. It'll soak through. Uh, so you do wanna make sure not to touch your eyes or anything like that, or else it'll sting and it's technically a poison, not a venom.

[02:29:54] Luke Storey: Right. Yeah. From a ecological perspective. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And what happens [02:30:00] if, uh, what would happen if one were to just eat some of it? Would you die, get sick? Yeah, I, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Um. You know, I haven't had the balls to find out myself. I, I'm normally pretty self experimental. I would say that might be intelligence, you know, but I've heard some stories of people doing that, um, and feeling like really sick for like two weeks.

[02:30:25] Caitlin Thompson: I don't know how true any of that is. You know, when I think about it from just like a biochemical perspective, I imagine that your stomach acid would just destroy these peptides almost immediately. They're, they're quite fragile and they're very rapidly degraded by trypsin and other enzymes, proteases.

[02:30:44] So, I don't know. Um, I've definitely have administered to animals before, like on their gums and they swallow it and there doesn't seem to be any Oh, interesting effect, you know, 'cause I'm trying to get it in the mucus membranes on their gums, but [02:31:00] they will swallow it 'cause they're an animal. You can't really fish it out of there.

[02:31:03] So. I don't know. Is is the, you know, long, long answer, short, I don't know. Um, there are alternative ways that you can administer kambo. You know, there are nasal, um, administration routes and rectal, I don't recommend rectal, but I, again, with animals, I have utilized rectal because I don't wanna burn an animal, you know?

[02:31:26] Yeah, yeah. They, because they, they don't have the cognition to understand what's going on. So it's, it's, uh, 10 amount to torture for an animal. Right. Like, if I burned my dog cookie with a, yeah, it's just a stick. She would probably be, um, her feelings would be hurt to say the least. It's, it's just not necessary.

[02:31:43] Luke Storey: So you've treated, uh, like pets though? I have, yeah. A few different species of animals. Really? Yeah. Almost always in like fairly dire circumstances, um, where it was a risk, you know, but it was a calculated one and, um, it ended up [02:32:00] faring really well for most of the animals. Wow. How many humans have you served?

[02:32:05] Caitlin Thompson: Um, I think at this point, over 2,700 sessions. Over the last 10 years. Yeah. Oh my God. What's the strongest, most memorable reaction you've ever seen? There are too many. There are too many. Um, and you know, when you say strong, you know, strong, strong isn't necessarily a good thing. You know, if, if someone's having a noticeably strong experience, uh.

[02:32:34] I might feel like, okay, this is too much for them. Right. Um, what I have seen is a lot of damn near miraculous outcomes that continue to just blow my mind. You know, like, it, it doesn't get old. This medicine continues to keep me on my toes, continues to humble me and surprise me with the potency that it offers.

[02:32:57] You know, I've, I've seen people who [02:33:00] have gone years without being able to take a poop on their own. They're doing daily enemas in order to have, you know, any sort of bowel movements. And they do combo one time and the next day they start pooping and they poop normally after that. Wow. Yeah. Things like that.

[02:33:18] Um, I've seen it work really incredibly for chronic pain, for smoking cessation. Um, you know, I've, I've seen it work for cancer. I've also seen it not work for cancer. So I think it very much depends also on the type of cancer and the context. Right. Um, there's a lot, you know, there, uh, it seems to work really well for managing, um, autoimmune conditions and especially infections.

[02:33:48] Chronic infections, acute infections. I have saved myself from so many rounds of antibiotics by carrying a combo stick with me. All over the world. I've been in Sumatra with [02:34:00] bladder infections. I've been in, you know, Malaysia with like horrible gut bugs. I've had motorbike accidents in the tropics where, you know, my wounds are getting infected or get, I get tattoo work and they're getting infected.

[02:34:14] And a little bit of convo, um, is rapidly effective for helping probably boost immune function more than have direct antimicrobial effects. But whatever it is, uh, there is definitely an immunogenic aspect. And I also served a lot of people during the virus that shall not be named. Um, ERA I was running all over, um, the island that I live on, uh, actively serving people, micro doses of kambo with, you know, act of COVID and it was just terminating it instantaneously.

[02:34:51] So it, it is a very versatile and powerful tool. You are making me want to do it. [02:35:00] After that first one, I was like, never again. But you know, there's certain things that are difficult to get to, difficult to treat, you know, like I was talking to you about tinnitus before we recorded, and it's just like, everyone kind of throws their hands out.

[02:35:13] Luke Storey: Like, I got nothing for that. So I always think about, um, people that have sort of seemingly incurable or hard to identify issues, you know? And I've, I've heard, um, from other people also practitioners, just the endless miracles they see. It's just incredible. I'm just like, man, why can't they do it in a way that's really comfortable, you know?

[02:35:36] Caitlin Thompson: But the thing is, they can, oh yeah, that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted to ask you. I, and you correct me where I'm wrong, but running in spaces with people who are, you know, working with plant medicines and things like that, it seems like kind of like podcasting. Everyone and their mom's doing it.

[02:35:54] Luke Storey: You know, it's like every, I, every other person I meet, it's like, I serve combo. I'm like, really? Everyone, you know? Yeah. Um, [02:36:00] but there's this thing that's like. What's the word people use? Like how many points you did there? There seems to be kind of a, like with anything, there's um, you know, some sort of ego identification or machismo about like how much combo you did.

[02:36:16] And I've talked to practitioners who I think are maybe in, in the game a little bit longer, more experienced, and they speak more like the word you mentioned microdose. They're like, dude, you have to assess each individual person and kind of base the dose on that. It's not about like how many points can you handle kind of thing.

[02:36:34] So talk to us about dosing and the, the ethics around that. Um, you know, for people that don't have the opportunity to work with you and might be interested in this, or even someone who's maybe had a less than positive experience, they might be able to ascertain why it was more challenging than maybe it needed to be to get the desired effect.

[02:36:55] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought this up because this is a [02:37:00] topic that I'm very passionate about. Um, and yeah, it is removing the ego and. Actually helping people access healing through softness. I think there's already this pervasive theme in society, um, or programming where people believe that they have to suffer to deserve their healing or you know, they have to work hard and it has to be painful for you to justify your existence, right?

[02:37:26] It's like this bigger theme in our, our global economy. And that's something that I really aim to kind of rewire as a concept for people. 'cause it really is in, in the yin and the softness where people have the greatest breakthroughs, at least from my experience. And there's so many people like you that, you know, did cambo one time or whatever with someone who may have not been the most attuned or experienced or educated on how to use that medicine.

[02:37:57] Um, and they are [02:38:00] traumatized. And this medicine is really powerful. It can absolutely traumatize people and it can hurt people if used incorrectly. And like you said, everyone and their mom is now identifying as a practitioner. Um, there's been an explosion of these sort of weakened warrior training certifications and people just don't know what they don't know.

[02:38:22] And even though they have maybe the best of intentions when they go through a three day certification program, they come out. Believing that they're qualified and then they hurt people or they traumatize people or at best they don't help people really extract as much meaning and like juicy benefit as they could because they lack the skills and the mastery to do so.

[02:38:47] So dosing really plays into that in a significant way. I kind of am like at the opposite end of the spectrum where I feel like bragging about how little medicine I can use to help [02:39:00] people catalyze an effective experience for them. Um, I really think that consciousness medicine is. Probably the, the primary tool that we should be using.

[02:39:12] And then these medicines, you know, like combo or psychedelics or whatever, um, can then provide some of the like physiological rocket fuel to augment the openness and the plasticity for your consciousness to really, um, intentionally rewrite the narrative. But if that part is not supported or, you know, if the practitioner does not know to guide someone into finding their power in utilizing consciousness medicine, they're missing a, a really great opportunity.

[02:39:48] Um, you know, kambo does a lot on its own, but when you actually navigate with intentionality and with direction, it is like rocket fuel, like I [02:40:00] said. And that's the thing that I see missing, is like people are lazy and they're wanting the cambo to do all the work, when really you need to be expertly curating the context of that person's experience, the environment, and helping them derive meaning from the experience, using consciousness, using intentionality, because that's actually what helps people integrate the experience and change their lives, you know, the effects of combo.

[02:40:33] They last, you know, maybe a week or so where you can feel the physiological differences. But then what, then you kind of go back to your life. And just like with psychedelics, there's this big theme around integration. Um, so looping back to dosage, 'cause I can get on these kind of, you know, um, so opera, whatever, we, we have plenty of time.

[02:40:53] It turns out when people feel safe, grounded, prepared, they have informed [02:41:00] consent and you guide them into the ceremonial space so that they can really drop into a parasympathetic response before they go into the combo. The potency of the medicine's actually different. And this makes sense, right? If you're, uh, in a stress response, you're not sure if you feel safe with a practitioner, maybe there's 20 people in the room.

[02:41:22] Nobody seems to be watching or supervising any of them, and you get, you know, 10 points slapped on you for your first time without a test point or anything. You are going to contract, you're gonna be in, in vigilant survival mode, and you're just gonna be hanging on for dear life until you make it to the other side.

[02:41:41] You're gonna be in a sympathetic stress response state. If you are running from a lion and you're having this stress response, your physiology is gonna tell you. Now is not the time to vomit. We do not have 30 seconds to pull over and puke in the bushes. The lion is chasing us. Right? [02:42:00] And so what actually happens when people don't feel safe, whether it's conscious or unconscious, um, they block the effects of the medicine and they can't actually allow it to go in and and do its thing.

[02:42:14] So if you know how to expertly guide someone into a state of relaxation and safety and vulnerability, you don't need to use very much medicine. So many times in my practice, I'm putting probably 40% of the time, I'm putting one point on people really, and they're having full purgative experiences. Wow.

[02:42:34] They're, they're having breakthroughs more so than if you slam them with like six points off the rip. Because then, like I said, they're just gonna go into survival mode and they are going to block themselves from actually receiving the intelligent gifts from the medicine. So I'm very much all about, you know, minimal, effective dose, low and slow.

[02:42:57] And, you know, I'm not here to cheap out [02:43:00] on anybody. If anyone ever wants more, I'm so happy to give them more, but they, they never do. Right? Like, once you're in it, um, and you're having a full breakthrough experience, you know, it's really up to you here. How you want to navigate that. And just because it's more painful for you does not necessarily mean that you're gonna get more out of it.

[02:43:23] In fact, I like to really teach people that, you know, we want the, the experience to be manageable so that you can actually use it like a weight, like a barbell where you're training your nervous system to be able to induce a parasympathetic surrender response or whatever in the face of challenge and uncomfortability.

[02:43:48] 'cause if you can do that and you can actually develop that as a skill, life is gonna be so much better, right? Because life is full of hardship, of painful stuff. So that's where the integration comes in. If [02:44:00] you can practice and develop those skills with tools like Combo and Nanga and rap, that kind of all you know, are used together, and then take that and apply that to your life, that's, these are the gifts that combo can bring amongst other things.

[02:44:16] But that's the way I like to guide people so that they can actually go out into the world and live a better life.

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[02:45:50] Again, hit up buy optimizers.com/luke. I really like your perspective here, uh, in so many [02:46:00] ways a being. The body is not going to go into healing if it's sympathetic and in a fight or flight kind of scenario. Which kind of brings me back to that first experience I had where a lot of people were really, really struggling to kind of freaking out.

[02:46:18] Um, luckily I think I'd been meditating for a very long time by that time, so I don't even know. It might have, I don't remember if the practitioner suggested this, but I remember just breathing slowly and keeping myself as calm as possible. And I treated the experience like a meditation. It was like, okay, how present can I be with something really uncomfortable without resisting?

[02:46:47] And, and I did. And I don't, I actually don't think I purged, but as it started to wear off, I purged out the backside violently. But I remember just, can I be present with [02:47:00] this? Because I really wanted to have the full experience. And, um, to your point of building that kind of resilience for integration, meaning living your life out there, this is, um, this is why I do ice baths all the time.

[02:47:14] I mean, like many times a day. A, it's hot as shit in Texas a lot of the time, but my practice has always been. How quickly can I just totally relax and surrender to that moment? And I don't have any science to back this up, but, uh, it takes a lot to get me riled up. You know, I mean, something can happen that's unexpected and, um, I'm pretty decent at keeping my composure and kind of assessing things without, um, without panicking.

[02:47:44] So I really like that approach to this particular medicine because it just makes so much common logical sense, right? If you're having a lot of resistance and your body's freaking out and you're unable to have, [02:48:00] well, I guess in your case, you would be assisting someone to be in that place where they can have agency, right?

[02:48:05] Like, wow, I'm sweating. I'm really uncomfortable. My face is puffing up. How can I surrender to this experience and allow the medicine to work it's magic without me interfering because of my reaction to it? Yeah, a hundred percent. And you know, a lot of people who practice combo, you know, ongoing for years, maybe they're actually serving people.

[02:48:30] Caitlin Thompson: I think you arrive at a place where when you take combo, you no longer suffer. You just get the hell out of the way. You, you know what it is, you trust it, you know that it's okay, and you do it, and you just allow the experience to happen and being present with it and observing the sensations. And one of the things I love about Combo is that it's an amazing tool for embodiment, especially in a world where, you know, [02:49:00] psychedelic fireworks are often celebrated and chased after people want these really intense, exciting, novel, trippy experiences, which have their place, don't get me wrong, I love a good, you know, good visual.

[02:49:13] But, um, with Cambo it's like it pulls you so into your body that you have no choice but to confront the humanness of the sensations. And that alone is so much potential medicine for people, for them to really open up and invite that in and find ways of harmonizing. With the intensity and the sensations of being in their body.

[02:49:45] And, and that's, I think, part of why some people don't like it because it, it really puts it right here and it's like a Chinese finger trap, you know, like the harder you pull, the tighter it gets. And the [02:50:00] only way through combo is through softness and through surrendering. And it's a bit counterintuitive, but once that clicks and then you develop it, um, you are like, wow, what else can I do this with?

[02:50:15] Make it easier. How often do you administer it to yourself or have someone do it to you? Is it something you do on a seasonal or regular basis at this point after serving gazillions of people? You know, it's changed over the years. Um, and I think the most important thing is to listen to where your needs are at with the medicine and to not just take them out of some sort of expectation or schedule.

[02:50:43] Right. Um, when I was, you know, really ill, I took combo a lot more when I first started with it. I was probably using it once a month or so. And then I, I was getting healthier and healthier and I found that I was able to go [02:51:00] longer and longer without it. So then it kind of became once every eight weeks and then once every, you know, 12 weeks and then maybe a couple times a year.

[02:51:09] Um, these days I actually don't use it a ton, probably. You know, I go to the jungle once a year and when I'm in the jungle you just do it every day. So I might do it like five times in like a week or something. Really? Yeah. Just 'cause you know, when in the jungle that's mm-hmm. That's what you're there to do.

[02:51:28] But during the rest of the year, like maybe two max, three times, um, I use microdosing a lot more at this point, and really as more of like an antibiotic intervention than anything. Um, especially living in the tropics, there's all sorts of pathogens trying to get you all the time. So I mostly use microdosing and, you know, on, on the subject of like softness and like yen.

[02:51:54] Um, microdosing is so great. It's like easy. Um, there's no [02:52:00] nausea purging involved. It, it still produces some degree of physical effects, like you'll still get some heart beating and some heat flushing, but it's quite blissful actually. And as long as you keep it below that kind of purgative threshold, it's really easy.

[02:52:16] It doesn't wipe you out for the rest of the day. You don't have to fast for eight hours. Um, you can just move on with your day. It gives you energy, um, and it, it knocks out infections like instantly. Wow. Um, so that's kind of more where I'm at these days is like staying connected through really low doses and then using a full purgative dose if I need it.

[02:52:39] But I seldom need it at this point. You've fixed your shit, you worked it out well, I mean to, to some extent, but also bodies change, right? Yeah. Over time. And there's other tools that I'm finding really supportive right now and doing a lot of other injectable peptides and high dose vitamin C and things like that.

[02:52:58] And, um, yeah, [02:53:00] I just feel like there are seasons to any person's growth and journey in their wellness is the combo, uh, excretion, standardized meaning? Can you always determine how much of the actives are present? Um, meaning, um, for example, with the bufo toad excretion, I've experienced this myself and it's been pretty jarring where, you know, you have a measurement say on a scale of a certain milligram, and then you take a dose and it's what you expect.

[02:53:35] Luke Storey: And then the same exact measurement could have less or more of the actives in it, and all of a sudden you're getting much more than you bargain for. Are you, are you able to predict, you know, the, the measurements in a way, or is it variable because it's coming from nature and not a lab? It is extremely variable.

[02:53:54] Caitlin Thompson: I mean, I think any natural substance is, there's so many contingencies even in plants, right? [02:54:00] Yeah. You know, I, I've been trying to find an objective answer to this. I, for the last five years, I have diligently been trying to get some proteomic analysis on a number of sticks, and I have sadly failed over and over and over for a number of reasons.

[02:54:18] You know, like the samples get. Stolen in a backpack in Peru, or then I get new samples and they're contaminated, or, okay, these samples work, but now they need the frog's DNA, and then I like find frog eggs and then, you know, or, or you run the mass spec and it didn't work. Or there's just, it's just been an ongoing thing.

[02:54:38] Um, what I do know, there have been very few papers published that have actually kind of assayed the constituents of sticks and I'm, I'm familiar with two papers and the, the, the ingredients on those sticks of the two papers are nothing near similar to each other. So [02:55:00] based on that and kind of observing sessions, um, there is so much variation in the constituents of the secretion likely.

[02:55:12] And, you know, that makes sense. Frogs are individuals like you and I, they are different ages, they're different sexes. There's different seasons of the year. Um, they live in different environments where maybe there's more or less abundance of food or population or human interaction or harvesting or whatever.

[02:55:31] So it doesn't surprise me. Um, but yeah, there, there really isn't any sort of standardization at this point. And that is something that I would like to. Push science forward in understanding, um, because then it, it actually opens up the ability to consider creating like a synthetic analog that can take pressure off of, you know, naturally derived cambo.

[02:55:57] Um, perhaps resolving some of the [02:56:00] sustainability concerns, but also, you know, if somebody wanted, could potentially take it through drug development and, and make it an FDA approved medicine, um, which might give more people access to healing that otherwise wouldn't. You know, choose to do frog poison, right?

[02:56:17] Luke Storey: Yeah. It's probably not gonna go mainstream anytime soon. No. And there's a lot of challenges and it's true iteration. Yeah, for sure. I mean, we, we don't even really have hardly any human research at this point. Um, I'm aware of, you know, two studies that have been published that are involving humans. One of them is one of my studies.

[02:56:36] Caitlin Thompson: Another is like just a survey of people that took Cambo at any point. And then I just finished conducting the first prospect of human study on combo, um, where we administered psychometric scales before, after, and then three months after follow-up. Um, and the results were really profound, actually. Like massive drops in depression, symptomology, [02:57:00] significant increases in mindfulness scores, life satisfaction, things like that.

[02:57:04] You know, we also found that concurrent use of Nanga and Rae with the cambo also enhanced positive psychological outcomes. Um, so right now I'm trying to get that study published. For the last nine months I have been grinding, trying to get a journal to look past the taboo nature of it and appreciate our bulletproof statistical analysis.

[02:57:29] But it is hard because the stigma is alive and real in the scientific community, like shockingly so, 'cause I thought, oh, we're all scientists, we're trained to think, you know, as unbiasedly as possible. Because we're supposed to be truth seekers. And turns out that's not actually the case for everybody apparently.

[02:57:48] And I, I've been shocked by some of the, you know, weird responses I've gotten from journals around, like even just trying to publish a literature review. It's like all [02:58:00] this is already published. I'm just compiling it into a different version and it's still, they feel it's controversial and I'm like, it's just fact.

[02:58:10] Like they're, these peptides have been found in this thing. Like there's nothing that, you know, controversial about it, but I've had journals be total hostile to me. Um, attack me, save really bizarre things. Say, oh, you guys just wanna get high. And I'm like, did you even read the paper? That's like in the first paragraph, you know, you don't get high.

[02:58:31] Um, so yeah, I trying to push forward Cabo science is hard and, you know, it'd probably be easier with more support, but, um. Sometimes you just have to do something. If you want it done, you have to do it yourself. 'cause I'm looking around like, who's gonna do this? Nobody crickets. So I'm like, okay, I'll find a way to do it.

[02:58:54] And you know this, this last study that we're, um, this close to publishing, it was [02:59:00] funded by some random crypto millionaire that I served Cambo to in Bali, really, who was, you know, he had this philanthropic sort of agenda and he wanted to donate to projects where he felt like his money could actually really accelerate a field.

[02:59:16] So he gave me, you know, more than six figures of funding to make this study happen. No strings attached. Like really no agenda other than to just support the progress of these type of, you know, research that can hopefully help humanity. So. It's been a blessed journey, but man, if anyone is listening and you wanna, you know, you have an institution that wants to get in on this, um, please, please.

[02:59:45] Um, we just started, um, a nonprofit, um, a few months ago, so it's brand new. It's called the Institute of Campbell Advancement and Preservation. And part of our initiatives is to, uh, have, you know, support in funding [03:00:00] ongoing research that can be more sophisticated, can, can be, you know, more controlled, um, as well as conservation initiatives, sustainability research studies, uh, harm reduction education, things like that.

[03:00:13] Those are all in the wheelhouse of things that we feel are important as this medicine grows and expands in the awareness of society. Well, we're gonna put links to everything you do at luke store.com/combo, k mbo, um, and we'll get to some more of that later. But it sounds like with this particular medicine.

[03:00:37] Luke Storey: People involved have to be incentivized just for the greater good and caring about humanity, right? If you're getting this kind of resistance from the scientific community or, uh, indifference or lack of interest, and obviously there's probably not a lot of money to be made in something like this that can't be patented because God made it.

[03:00:59] I mean, I can [03:01:00] see why you would have difficulty moving forward for a number of reasons, but I really like this. You know, the wealthy guy comes in and says, man, I have a positive experience here. I wanna get this information out and has the resources to do that. I think that's one of the most positive things about these kind of sacred medicines, whether they're psychedelic or not, um, is people that are resourced and influential, having life changing experiences and going like, why doesn't everyone know about this?

[03:01:30] I know a lot of practitioners that, um, work with wealthy people and charge a lot of money for their services, which I, at first thought was a little shady. Think of two people specifically that I had positive experiences with, and I'm like, how much do you charge? They're like, it's, I'm not trying to make money.

[03:01:48] I'm trying to get to the heads of corporations, the heads of state. They're going for like a top down impact, right? To get people to become invested because they have positive experiences rather than, you [03:02:00] know, solely focusing on the people, um, in need that aren't resourced. So it's an interesting kind of, um, vertical there.

[03:02:08] I don't think there's a right or wrong way, but I'm starting to see that there's some value in reaching influential people that can actually help the cause solely out of the kindness of their heart and the fact that they want to help their fellow humans. Yeah, we need that. Um, you know, and whether you like money or not, um, it is what makes the world run and it's much better for someone who has good intentions and wants to create something of value for the world to be resourced.

[03:02:40] Caitlin Thompson: And so, yeah, I don't, I don't judge anyone for charging what they need, um, so that they can support others and, you know, their modality.

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[03:04:45] What's up with the, uh, conservation? Are there any issues with, um. Extinction or environmental impacts or negative impacts to the cultures, uh, where these medicines originate. I know that's a issue with the, the [03:05:00] bufo toad. You know, you have people out there trying to make a buck and decimating the desert toad, um, to sell the venom when you could just use synthetic, you know?

[03:05:10] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, totally. Um, the ans so currently the, the frogs are non threatened, which is great. Uh, their populations are abundant, you know, they don't really have a lot of predators. You know, word on the block is you don't eat that frog. Right. Um, so luckily their populations are good for now, but as someone who's on the ground in the jungle, year after year, I am seeing changes to the population.

[03:05:37] And, you know, over harvesting is a concern that I have, especially as it continues to grow in interest. And like you said, the, the indigenous have, you know, started using harvesting of Cabo to support their livelihoods because they have no choice but to integrate with a, a modernizing world where money is involved.

[03:05:58] Right. So you [03:06:00] are finding areas that are being heavily harvested from, um, the frogs are declining in their health and. While this isn't affecting, you know, the larger population of the entire Amazon basin, 'cause many of the frogs are probably so deep in the Amazon that most people can't access them. Um, but on like, you know, the outskirts of like Iquitos and places like that, um, there's people going up and down the river with boats just squeezing as much out of these frogs as they can, uh, to make a buck.

[03:06:32] And yeah, there's a, a few different things going on there. Um, one, I think this is the time earlier rather than later to start initiatives, um, with conservation and sustainability. Because if we don't even have a baseline of what a healthy population should be, how can we even know what our goal should be?

[03:06:54] So again, that's something that we're trying to kind of pioneer is let's start [03:07:00] getting some, you know, conservation and sustainability initiatives on the ground and actually empower the indigenous by having them run these projects. Um, how having them have other sources of income and support so they don't have to just solely rely on harvesting of the medicines.

[03:07:22] You know, that's also why I take groups to the jungle too, is so that people can not only see with their own eyes where this medicine comes from and, and what it's really like in these communities, but that we can actually bring them resources that don't rely on them, just. Stripping all the frogs from the jungle, and they can actually get paid to provide an experiential process for people instead.

[03:07:46] Um, so these are concerns that I have. I think that they should be addressed earlier rather than later. And I also am seeing, you know, these cultural changes happening rapidly in [03:08:00] these indigenous communities, which, you know, it's a complicated topic, uh, because on one hand, when you come into an indigenous community, especially as a white person, um, you, you don't really have much right to say, you know, how they're gonna live their life.

[03:08:17] So if you do come in and bring them resources, I don't feel it's really up to you to tell them how to allocate their resources. Like they get to decide what their community wants, and sometimes it's starlink and sometimes it's, you know, solar power and sometimes it's iPhones and you know, part of you might not want that to happen.

[03:08:38] You want them to preserve their culture and their way of life because to you, on the outside it's like interesting and feels connected to nature. And it is, but you know, you're not the one living that life every day. Um, and not having internet and not having electricity and not having a bed to sleep on and, and, you know, no medical care or whatever.[03:09:00]

[03:09:00] So. It can be very delicate to engage with these indigenous communities as they start to get more access to the modern comforts. 'cause the human condition will always want more than what it has, right? That's like, that's how we survive as humans. We have this dopaminergic quality that leaves us yearning for more than what we have.

[03:09:24] And that, I don't know if that will ever change, no matter who you are and where you live. Um, so yeah, I just, you know, working with some of these villages and seeing, you know, like shitting in a hole in the ground and having bats fly out of it and stuff, and going to like them having these buildings with like toilets and tile floors and solar showers and you're just like, wow.

[03:09:49] Or, you know, the getting the starlink, um, now everybody's playing games on their phones. They're not as engaged. Even just the kids, you know, when, when I first started [03:10:00] going there, the kids hardly spoke any Spanish and now the kids are fluent in Spanish, which is quite a cool, 'cause I can communicate more effectively with them now.

[03:10:09] But, um, yeah, it, it's an interesting experience like watching the. You know, interaction with indigenous communities around all these medicines, not just combo, how it inevitably shapes their offerings, the way they engage, even the stories they tell about their medicines. 'cause I've also seen those change, which makes me believe that maybe there's a bit of commercial fabrication going on as well to kind of, I don't know, create like a story that feels emotional for people and it makes them wanna give more money or whatever.

[03:10:49] Um, so that's definitely a reality and it's something I talk about a lot and it's, it's something I like to help people understand the complexities of, because there is a lot of [03:11:00] romanticization of indigenous practices without a, a full, um, conceptual understanding of like, what is life actually like for an indigenous person in their villages.

[03:11:12] Luke Storey: Speaking of romanticizing, um, I think in the west in general, we have, when it comes to rituals and ceremony, um, I think. Sometimes we have, uh, a bit of a romantic fantasy vision of how those things play out in, in those cultures. Uh, you know, yeah, right. Where, I mean, I've heard stories from people going down to the Amazon, whatever and drinking ayahuasca, and they're expecting things to have this elaborate, uh, production and so on.

[03:11:45] And it's just, you know, you're just sitting in a, in a shed with some, some guy and he's the shaman and he is just wearing like an Old Navy shirt. It's not, it's, doesn't have all the bells and whistles that, that we might, uh, that we might imagine. What have [03:12:00] you learned about the level of, um, I dunno, intentionality, ritual ceremony specific to combo?

[03:12:09] Is it something that is, is very elaborate and well thought out and practiced? Or is it just kind of like, this is what we do, it's not a big deal here, take a little burn? Or is it, I'm sure it's a spectrum depending on who you're working with, but what, what is the kind of, um, western perspective, how does it differ from how people are working with combo in, in its place of origin?

[03:12:33] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah, so in the jungle with most communities that use combo, um, there is little to no ritual or. Spirituality there. There's no shamanic history with kambo at all. That's something that I think all the ayahuasca people have just kind of blanket applied to Ka Ah, okay. Um, yeah, and you know, you don't have to be a shaman to administer ka in these communities.

[03:12:58] Uh, there's no [03:13:00] songs most of the time. Some, some places they'll sing songs, but I think that was a newer adaptation because the gringo like the songs, right. Um, but I don't think they typically sing songs there. There's definitely no intention setting. There's no prayers, there's no safety protocols. No one asks you if you have any contraindications.

[03:13:22] Like you're just sitting on a log, puking on your feet and puking on your neighbor's feet. And no one's really there to even like, help you. Um, sometimes they might kind of hold you up if they think you're about to faint, but it's very casual and I kind of like it, it, you know, it's, it's something right?

[03:13:39] It's its own thing. And, um, it has, its, you know, own energy of being in the jungle in the environment and doing fresh from the frog. It's a whole experience. But with the modernization of KA in the West, there has been this like neo. Spiritual adaptation to it, which I [03:14:00] actually really like. And I am not at all a traditionalist in any sense.

[03:14:05] Um, I, I despise dogma. Um, I think that innovation is our friend, and I think discernment is important. We need to look at the parts of, you know, historical use that makes sense and ask like, does this apply to the needs of the community that's taking it in this context? And sometimes it doesn't. You know, one example is, um, whether to use saliva or water to reconstitute the secretion.

[03:14:35] People that are, you know, very, you know, traditionalists, they'll say, oh, well the indigenous people use saliva. I'm like, that's 'cause they don't have access to clean water. You know, like compared to the amoeba laden river water, their saliva probably is a better choice. But when we have access to purified water and we're working professionally in a, you know, first world country and [03:15:00] we don't wanna be rubbing our spit into someone's open wound, we can use water.

[03:15:04] Right? And, you know, there's, there's all these dogmatic ideas about whether you don't transmit the energy of the practitioner, et cetera. I don't find any of that to be true personally. Um, so there's things like that that I think we really need to question and. I am a fan of the ceremonial that I've seen happen with Cambo because I think it is an evolving way of using Cambo.

[03:15:32] And you know, I personally don't believe that Cambo belongs to the indigenous people of the Amazon. I believe it belongs to the frog, and I do think the frog has its own agenda, has its own, um, desires, and it has left the jungle for a reason. And I think it wants to move into broader parts of the world and do whatever its mission is.

[03:15:56] And I think it's okay that things change. That, that things get [03:16:00] updated to be relevant to, you know, what's needed, um, by the, the people that are using Cabo. People in the Amazon didn't use Cambo for their childhood trauma or aligning their chakras or any of that. They primarily used it for magic. Actually, they didn't even use it so much as a medicine.

[03:16:20] It was for magic. It was for increasing their hunting abilities, for improving their visual acuity, their perceptual, um, abilities, their endurance. It was like an adaptogen in some ways for them. And then on occasion, you know, if you start to feel a bit sluggish, you know, you got that Panama, it's like that dark energy kind of, uh, groggy cloud of bad luck.

[03:16:45] Uh, then they'll give you cambo or if you have malaria or um, you know, a gut bug or something like that, they will take a cambo for things like that. But they mostly used it for like divination and, and you know, hunting magic. [03:17:00] Nowadays we're using it for our Lyme disease, our diabetes, our addictions, our childhood trauma, our anxiety and depression, um, whatever.

[03:17:12] These are things that don't even exist in the jungle and. The way that Cambo is being utilized now is different. And so it has to be, you know, evolved and innovated to match the, the novel application of this medicine. I really feel like Cambo is expanding into New Horizons and showing us that it has way more capacity to be applied to different things than we originally knew of, based on hundreds of years of traditional use.

[03:17:46] So it's kind of like having its own like Renaissance and finding, um, its place in a growing, expanding global world. What do you think about its role in conjunction with other [03:18:00] entheogens? And I know a lot of people will, um, practitioners that serve Bufo or Ayahuasca, whatever it is, they'll have a preliminary combo kind of clearing.

[03:18:11] Luke Storey: Actually, I just was with a friend a couple days ago and she was telling me, I forget what medicine she was working with, but she said, oh, the day before we did combo and then we did wachuma, or whatever it was. Um, and I hear that quite a bit. It's never, it's never been offered. When I was around prior to my conversation with you, I might have declined it.

[03:18:28] Now I'm, I'm getting reinterested, but, um, yeah. What, what, what do you see the value being there in terms of physical clearing, nervous system clearing, energy clearing too? To help facilitate a more positive or deeper experience for people that are going into, you know, a plant medicine, uh, kind of space.

[03:18:49] Another thing, does it bug you when people call combo plant medicine? 'cause it bugs me when people call buffo plant medicine. Oh yeah. That's a even mushroom because I'm like, mushrooms aren't a plant. I tried to create, I [03:19:00] I've created a new term. Amphi biotic. Cool. I like it. I'm like, let's just talk, talk about the frog and toad things.

[03:19:07] Caitlin Thompson: Call 'em amphi bios. I like that. Or in a neurogen. That's another good one. A neurogen. 'cause in a neuron is like a frog or a toad. So yeah, if you want feel like spreading those, um, new terminology, I mean, would, would combo fit in the category of an entheogen? I mean, 'cause the way you're describing it and working with it, right?

[03:19:27] Luke Storey: It doesn't, you don't have like a mystical experience per se or visuals, but it sounds like in your work you're seeing people have something happen beyond just the gross physical people are having metaphysical insights. There's a, there's a change in consciousness even though we might not think about it in, in a classical sense that Oh, I was tripping balls on combo.

[03:19:47] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. Um, I think Inogen is still somewhat relevant, um, because yeah, I do think it does tap into some sort of quantum meta. [03:20:00] Fabric of reality that is a bit distinct from, you know, psychedelic spaces, but it's definitely there. But yeah, I, I hate when people call it plant medicine. I'm like, a plant medicine comes from a plant, like even mushrooms aren't a plant medicine.

[03:20:15] I know the biologist in me gets really annoyed. I'm like, not technically correct.

[03:20:25] Luke Storey: I like being social as much as the next guy. I just don't like being sloppy. And if you've ever woken up after a night out, feeling foggy, dehydrated, and off your game, you know exactly what I'm talking about. For me, that trade off stopped making sense a long time ago. I still love the ritual though, chilling with friends, having something in your hand, that moment where the day winds down and conversation and connection open up.

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[03:21:55] So, so, uh, I think I derailed you, but uh, take me back to [03:22:00] its role in, you know, a suite or an entourage of other medicines. How does it assist? When can it be counterproductive and so on? Yeah. Um, personally, I generally am not encouraging people to stack medicines. Um, I don't, I don't think that is always the case, but like, I think when you start stacking.

[03:22:22] Caitlin Thompson: Tools and spirits, um, you need some mastery. You better know what you're doing. And I think that you probably should have an established relationship with each substance before you are doing that yourself or, or condoning someone to do that. Um, because it's, you know, it's kind of like going on a first date with like two women at once or whatever.

[03:22:45] Like, you're not really gonna be able to dial in and understand what your relationship is with that medicine or that spirit. I know a lot of people swear by it in certain ways. Um, and I do have experience, you know, [03:23:00] personally and with select individuals in doing combo like the day before doing ayahuasca.

[03:23:07] Um, and it has been, you know, kind of more potent. I, I, it definitely increases psychoactivity of psychedelics really for sure. You know, I've done combo and then like LSD the next day and definitely like enhances the, the visuals. I, it's like. Polishing the neurotransmitters or, or, or like, yeah. Getting the plaque out of your brain or something, you know what I mean?

[03:23:30] Luke Storey: I picture just kind of like polishing the system and then it would make sense that people receptor, yeah, we're just enhancing like receptor expression and thing. You know, I, I suspect there's a dopaminergic boost that comes, you know, downstream from the kembo effects. But, um, so it, it can augment the psychoactive properties of these things, which for some people might be good.

[03:23:53] Caitlin Thompson: I've also had it go the opposite way where, you know, then I'm way too high the next day [03:24:00] I've drank, you know, a medium-sized cup and I'm basically, you know, frying, getting like serotonin syndrome and frying out my entire nervous system. And yeah, I just think it can be destabilizing for people when they're mixing all these really powerful tools at once without any sort of baseline of what.

[03:24:19] Each tool has done for them to begin with. I've talked to a number of Bufo practitioners who swear by giving people combo and then Bufo. Um, they insist that the, it kind of removes a lot of the turbulence of the Bufo. Um, but the one concern for me is that, you know, they're often, like, some people are giving people cambo an hour before bfo, like immediately before, and they're still vomiting from the cambo going into the BFO experience, which to me is, is increasing, you know, risk of asphyxiation.

[03:24:58] Luke Storey: Yikes, that sounds so [03:25:00] terrible. Y but it's like a really popular thing. I'm like, just give it 24 hours. Like, fine, you wanna do combo, like clear your, or whatever, do combo the day before. Like it's, it's just give us some time. You know? There's no rush. We don't need to stack everything all at once and just destabilize people.

[03:25:19] Caitlin Thompson: Bfo on its own is already incredibly destabilizing, and so I can't even imagine like going through Cambo and then going through BFO all in an hour. And then being sent home and you know, usually integration is lacking for a lot of people that go through that experience. Um, so I'm generally not a fan of stacking those.

[03:25:40] Um, it also can be very dangerous to do BFO and then combo. Um, it doesn't happen to every person, but there is this phenomena that has been documented enough that it seems to be true for some people and not others for whatever reason, where they do combo after Bufo [03:26:00] and, um, they end up in these like multi-day vomiting spells and maybe they're having reactivations as well.

[03:26:09] Um, I've heard from other practitioners that have witnessed it. They said it's really ugly. Every time they've seen it happen, they thought that person was gonna die. Um, you know, anytime you have days of vomiting, you have electrolyte disturbance concerns, which can be fatal. Um, I just don't think it's worth it.

[03:26:28] Like I, I don't, you know, Cambo can clear you out and you can do it in a few days or in, in a week. Like it, it'll still serve its purpose in preparing you for your psychedelic journey, in my opinion. Um, but when you just kind of, you know, punch, punch, punch, um, it feels abusive to me. Abusive not only for the person receiving, but also to the spirits that are really, really there in like devotion and service to helping people.

[03:26:56] And it just feels like, um, it can be ungrateful [03:27:00] to just put all the medicines in one weekend, uh, just to, you know, smack people in the face and make them feel like they got their money's worth or whatever it is. That sounds terrifying. I mean, Buffo doesn't require any help, you know what I mean? And neither does combo.

[03:27:22] That's why I'm like, they're so. Potent on their own. Like why, why would you do that to yourself? What are some of the counter indications with combo? What are the risks involved? Uh, it's, it's not illegal as a controlled substance, I'm assuming. Yeah. It's unscheduled. So currently in the US and most parts of the world is, um, not illegal.

[03:27:46] Luke Storey: I mean, it's obviously not the kind of thing a normal human's gonna be drawn to, uh, abuse or overuse, right. It's not, it's not a very pleasant experience. And I know people say, well, psychedelics aren't, you know, [03:28:00] addictive, but there are people that abuse, uh, yeah. Psychedelics, you know, but it doesn't, it doesn't seem like combo would have that issue.

[03:28:06] So maybe it's able to exist under the radar of the authorities because of that. Right. I think it's also still just so new, you know, it wasn't even introduced into the West until the mid eighties by Peter Gorman. So I think it's just still very underground and fringe, but it could become criminalized.

[03:28:23] Caitlin Thompson: And I think it is starting to become on the radar. It's growing. Um, you know, as far as contraindications, we're still really learning what those are. 'cause like I said, in the jungle, they don't. Ask those questions. They don't have these health conditions. They don't, they're not on medications and things like that.

[03:28:43] Um, combo is remarkably compatible with a whole array of pharmaceutical medicines, which a lot of people, um, aren't expecting, right? Because they, they know with ayahuasca, oh, I can't be on an SSRI, I can't be on a benzo, whatever. Um, but that's actually [03:29:00] not the case with Cambo. So in a way, it's a very accessible medicine no matter where somebody is at in their medical journey most of the time.

[03:29:08] And it is, yeah, remarkably safe. Even for people with really fragile health. I've served so many people with, you know, multiple sclerosis and Lyme disease and, you know, just really severe chronic issues. Um, and you do have to approach them differently for their safety, but the substance itself, um, can be really supportive.

[03:29:30] Even someone who's, you know, wheelchair bound and things like that, what we. Kind of know so far, um, around medications is mostly it appears that drugs that, um, interact with the opioid system have the most interaction with combo, at least from my experience and my observation. And this makes sense because, you know, the secretion contains peptides that have very powerful opioid binding effects.[03:30:00]

[03:30:00] Um, so when I've worked with people that are, you know, on Suboxone, maybe they're trying to like, um, wean down onto Creto or something, or people that are taking creto, you know, people that are on, um, low dose naltrexone, things like that. Any sort of opioid, um, activity, they can be very sensitive to the combo.

[03:30:20] You know, you give them one point and the, the stuff coming out of them is like really dark and nasty. Um, and they're just get slammed by these like, single points. I've seen that consistently. Um, so I do feel like opioid, uh, activity can, you know, augment the effects of cambo. What's interesting as well is I've seen.

[03:30:42] Drugs that have opioid binding activity show similar effects. So ketamine, which has some kappa opioid binding affinity and um, iga, also Kappa opioid. And there is a phenomena, um, that, and when people kind of have freshly [03:31:00] taken one of those substances, they can present very similarly to someone that I would expect to like be on an opiate or like Suboxone or something like that.

[03:31:09] Now here's where the five M-E-O-D-M-T is quite interesting. Um, so, you know, it's not categorized as an opiate obviously, but it does bind to the Sigma one receptor. I don't know if you're familiar with this. Mm-hmm. It's, it's part of where all the, um, immune modulating properties of DMTN, NDMT and five M Eeo DMT come from.

[03:31:32] But what's interesting about this Sigma one receptor is that initially it was categorized as an opiate receptor, which is why it has like the Greek naming, like the, you know, the Delta opioid and the um, mu opioid. But then later they decided it was like its own thing, but they had originally categorized as as such because um, they found that it did bind to some opiate drugs.

[03:31:58] So my theory [03:32:00] and why there is an interaction between five M-E-D-M-T and Cambo sometimes in some individuals, I'm wondering if. Five is causing some sort of confirmational protein change in the receptor of the fi of the sigma one receptor. And perhaps some of these opioid peptides from the cambo are interacting with that receptor in some way, which makes sense because they're opioid binding molecules.

[03:32:29] So they might be interacting with the Sigma one. And I would love to find this out. I would love to find a third party lab and, and explore that more. But I think that could be the connection between the reactions that you're seeing on the people that are doing the five and then the cambo shortly after, and then having these like violent reactivation bar fest for several days on end.

[03:32:50] Luke Storey: Oh my god. Sounds like a nightmare. Yeah. Even when you have, uh. Five MEO reactivation, or as I call it, [03:33:00] night school. It can be terrifying. Even if you feel really good physically. I can't imagine you wake up in the middle of the night, it's 2:00 AM and you're like in a full buffo journey and also puking your guts out.

[03:33:11] That does not sound fun. No, no. Yeah. And so the, you know, as far as medications go, combo plays nice with almost anything. People can be on antidepressants, they can be on, um, you know, benzos and Xanax and things like that. Um, they can also be on steroids and, um, immunosuppressive drugs, which it's not my favorite 'cause you're gonna augment the immune system.

[03:33:36] Caitlin Thompson: And so you, you need to be strategic about that. But as far as health conditions, you know, there's a few kind of agreed upon contraindications, but I've gotta be honest, I think they're mostly theoretical, right? They're kind of like, well, let's not fuck with that. Um, you know, history of heart attack or stroke or pulmonary embolism, things like that.

[03:33:59] [03:34:00] Um. You know, some people consider a lot of conditions contraindicated that I don't necessarily consider contraindicated, for example, seizures. Um, some people might say you don't serve someone with seizures. When I think about like the pharmacology of cambo, again, I know there's strong opioid effects, and I know that opioids are notorious for dramatically reducing, like, um, glutamate signaling and glutamate signaling is largely what drives the cytotoxic cascades that create seizures.

[03:34:34] And so just from a mechanistic perspective, I'm like, I don't know that cambo really is going to enhance someone's ability to have a seizure. Perhaps the opposite. And I've definitely never seen it in my practice. So for me, that's not a contraindication. Um, you know, while I, I definitely exercise caution and encourage everyone to really, you know, feel into how qualified they are to take [03:35:00] on certain cases.

[03:35:01] You know, same thing with bipolar disorder. Um, some people that are diagnosed as bipolar do not really have, you know, proper manic episodes. And that is really the main concern is that you can kind of stimulate someone into an abundance of dopaminergic transition transmission and then their. Gonna have some sort of like psychotic break or, or manic behavior.

[03:35:27] That definitely is a concern and a contraindication in my mind. But if somebody is just depressed, and I always kind of question people's bipolar diagnosis anyways, because sometimes I'm like, I don't know how bipolar they really are. You know, I think people get slapped on with those labels. I've worked with a lot of bipolar people successfully, and I work really cautiously and gently with them, and they don't get pushed into manic episodes.

[03:35:52] Um, I wouldn't work with someone's schizophrenic, um, or on like a anti-psychotic medication because of an ongoing battle of [03:36:00] psychosis. For me, that would be a clear contraindication. I would not serve someone who's pregnant. Um, just 'cause we don't know enough about what the effects of the fetus could be.

[03:36:10] There are potential abortive effects that can happen in like, late stage pregnancy, especially, not so much early stage. There is a rumor that they use, you know, cambo as an abortive in the jungle, but not really. Um, it doesn't work very well in early pregnancy and, uh, I don't think that they really think about aborting children on purpose in the jungle, you know?

[03:36:34] Uh, so definitely don't recommend anybody, you know, use cambo for that. Yeah. You know, and with autoimmune conditions. Largely, I've seen it immune modulate people and help them significantly, but there is an immune boosting aspect to cambo. And if that is not, you know, modulated and regulated appropriately, it can [03:37:00] augment, um, you know, your immune response in certain ways.

[03:37:03] And that definitely happens with me and my lupus. And I have to be very careful about how I use Cambo and other immunogenic substances, even probiotics, um, things like that. If I do a bunch of cambo, I will start to feel, you know, my nervous system become inflamed and, um, some of my like, lupus symptoms to kind of get augmented.

[03:37:25] So like everything, I think balance is really key, but Cambo is remarkably compatible with so many different conditions, so many different medications and so many states of health. And I'll just emphasize again, the importance of the practitioner's experience, their training, probably medical knowledge.

[03:37:46] 'cause like you're basically operating as an unlicensed medical provider in some way, if we're honest here. Um, and yeah, their, their ability to evaluate and customize the approach with each person is [03:38:00] absolutely critical because a lot of these trainings are pumping out these like cookie cutter. Protocol trained practitioners, which is really no different than just allopathic medicine, right?

[03:38:12] Like, oh, the clinical trial. We use this dosage for this disease. And that's how we're still thinking about cambo sometimes when we really need to be tuning into the individual, um, listening closely, doing things like test points so that we can evaluate people's sensitivity and make informed choices about dosage and be trauma informed as well, and, and not just kind of punching people into the ground and putting their body and their psychology in a contracted, you know, stress response that's gonna be counterproductive for their healing.

[03:38:50] Luke Storey: What about the effects on addiction, whether it be opiates or, in my case nicotine. I've seen it [03:39:00] work really well for addiction. Um, I've definitely had clients who have used it for smoking cessation. I will say it hasn't worked for me, but the thing about, I, I have the same problem. Um, the thing about addiction is, right, it's like there's a chemical aspect of it always.

[03:39:18] Caitlin Thompson: Um, but you also have to want to quit, right? You have to really, really want to rewire your habitual. That's why I haven't quit nicotine. I, it's like. Part of me that wants to, but a bigger part that doesn't. A hundred percent. I feel you. Um, so I think it's like the cost to benefit ratio, right? Yeah. I mean there's, there's a large category of mind altering substances that I will never touch my entire life because they were so problematic.

[03:39:45] Luke Storey: But then there are some that are kind of in a more gray area in terms of my relationship with them. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes you try to like, well, could I just mitigate the, you know, damage so that I could keep enjoying these cigarettes or with [03:40:00] nicotine? It's been so, uh, kind of, uh, affirming in, in a bad way.

[03:40:04] There. There's a lot of great research coming out now with nicotine in terms of spike proteins and I mean, all kinds of stuff that I see in the telegram realm in telegram health, you know what I mean? I'm like, wow, it turns out nicotine is really good for you in a lot of ways. Probably not if you overuse it, but, you know, that's the thing.

[03:40:21] It's like poison or medicine a hundred percent. The dose, the intention, your background, all of those things, you know? Yeah. It, I mean, it's super complicated, right? Like our relationship with substances, it's, is not black and white. Um, so when it comes to addiction, it's, I think if someone has a really clear intention that they want to change that aspect of their life, then cambo can, you know, scramble, um, the, the grooves a bit and give you that temporary spaciousness to like forge a new pattern.

[03:40:56] Caitlin Thompson: But like you said, if a part of you just wants to keep doing [03:41:00] it, which I feel you, um, it's not gonna happen. You know, it's not gonna magically do it for you. In, in your experience or any, I know the research is limited, but when we look at, um, iboga and then Ibogaine, I mean, there is a lot of clinical data to support people, you know, not only, um.

[03:41:21] Luke Storey: Being freed of addiction, but facilitating a more easeful withdrawal experience. Yeah. You know, which is like with opiates as a former opiate addict, I can attest that once you get past a certain point, you really don't feel it. You're just trying to stay well and once you start getting dope sick, um, I mean there's just about, there's very few things you wouldn't do to get well.

[03:41:47] Right. And that becomes a barrier to entry on, on getting clean because it's just like, you don't want to go through that three or four days of hell, even though you're not really enjoying it or getting the benefits that you did in [03:42:00] the beginning. Yeah. Which of course was something like heroin or very short-lived, you know?

[03:42:04] Caitlin Thompson: Yeah. It goes from like fun to not fun pretty quick. Mm. But I know there's people that are addicts, um, especially with opiates listening that are like, yeah, this sucks. I can't get out just because I can't get through that first couple days. Yeah. And so, you know, I think with Iboga Iboga and things like this, I mean, I've not experienced it, but I have met people firsthand that are like, yeah, I went in and I barely even notice the detox.

[03:42:28] Luke Storey: I'm like in a journey and I walk out and I'm detoxed and not dope sick. And now I have like, at least a couple day head start towards sobriety. Have you seen anything similar to that with Combo? Yeah, it definitely can help mitigate the, you know, opioid withdrawals. Um, I think it needs to be used very carefully for that purpose.

[03:42:50] Caitlin Thompson: Ideally even like very, very low doses, perhaps even like twice a day for a couple days under supervision. You know, you have to make [03:43:00] sure that someone doesn't sneak off to the bathroom and use, you know, have a weak moment. Um. You know, using other tools like, you know, electrolyte supplementation and, and maybe NAD plus like subcutaneous or IV or whatever to support them.

[03:43:16] But yeah, it can be done. Um, and you know, the, the peptides Inca do have such really powerful opioid effects that they, they bind, you know, more, more securely than most other opiate molecules. So I imagine that they would kind of displace, um, other opiate drugs that are in the system and probably kind of correct some, that whole system of receptors, uh, in a way that kind of restores some balance and mitigates those withdrawals.

[03:43:49] But yeah, it'd be great if we could actually research this stuff and have data on it because, you know, anecdotes are awesome and we have so many of them with cambo, you [03:44:00] know, hundreds of thousands, millions of people have taken combo at this point. Um, but we just don't have any data and a lot of people don't take something seriously until there's data.

[03:44:11] Luke Storey: Yeah. Meanwhile, someone like you has thousands of subjective experiences or objective, you know, bearing a witness to miraculous inexplainable healing experiences for people. I imagine that must be frustrating at times when there's, you know, you can't just go to PUB Mad and be like, see, see, I told you, this is what I've been seeing for years.

[03:44:34] Caitlin Thompson: I mean, I have data too, and I can't get that published either, so, right. Yeah, it's, um, sometimes it can, you know, you feel like you're fighting the good fight, but, um, it's a journey and I'm enjoying it. So,

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[03:46:14] And here's what's up. They taste delicious too. I am obsessed with this stuff. Try it for yourself and find out at real provisions.com/luke. Tell me about, uh, what people will find@combospecialists.com is this training for wouldbe practitioners. So we have educational resources for every person on the spectrum, whether you are combo curious, um, maybe you're already engaged with combo, you wanna self-administer or maybe you're, uh, ready to step into a practitioner role.

[03:46:49] Caitlin Thompson: We basically got your back from start to finish. Um, we just launched a new ebook called What the Frog Is Combo And Am I Ready? Which I think is important because it, you [03:47:00] know, it's a 22 page ebook document that really takes someone through everything that they need to know to properly evaluate. Whether cambo is a modality that fits their needs.

[03:47:12] Um, and it helps them, you know, make responsible choices around choosing a practitioner, evaluating their readiness, understanding informed consent, and you know, what's likely to happen. So I'm encouraging anyone listening, if you're curious about Cambo, check that out. It's like seven bucks, you know, it's like a cup of coffee and it can help you make or break your combo experience by, you know, choosing a practitioner wisely and just making sure that you are fully prepared.

[03:47:40] Um, we have some mini courses too, if you're interested in like, diving deep on the, uh, pharmacology of combo's, peptides and the science that does exist in the literature. What we know, what we don't know, there's many courses on that. There's many courses on the history of combo. Um, we have self-administration courses, so if someone's feeling [03:48:00] ready to, you know, start their more personal relationship with combo.

[03:48:04] And then we have in-person courses, um, for combo practitioner training. 'cause that's not something that you can really learn online. There has to be a lot of practical application. Um, and we actually have a coupon code for any of your listeners if they wanna uh Oh, awesome. The discount. Yeah. It's LS 10.

[03:48:25] Life stylist or Luke story depending on what you prefer. Uh, and I'll give you guys 10% off. So LS 10. Okay, cool. You can put that in and you know, just a little discount. So, and I appreciate that and we'll link that. Uh, and everything we talked about, that's linkable@lukestory.com slash combo. Uh, what about, uh, I wanna dig into some of the other ailments that you've seen.

[03:48:51] Luke Storey: Uh, people get results with. Something that comes to mind just 'cause it's close to home is allergies, which is a huge issue for people here in Texas. There's not like [03:49:00] a allergy season. Every season here is, is allergy season. They're just a different one. Mm-hmm. My wife has never had allergies in her life.

[03:49:08] We moved here and it's like, I mean, it's bad sometimes. Is that something you've had any, um, experience with just as one random example? Yeah, I think for some people they find cambo can improve their allergies. Um, but if I'm honest, I think it could potentially go either way. I have seen that if someone overuses combo.

[03:49:31] Caitlin Thompson: I do think it can augment like mast cell activity and you know, if someone's like regularly using Campbell all the time, especially in lower doses, like the micro doses, sometimes people can develop like rashes, um, and like, you know, sensitivities to foods that and stuff like that. So again, everything in balance.

[03:49:53] But I haven't heard of a few stories of people saying that their seasonal allergies improved a lot. [03:50:00] Um, probably 'cause you know, I'm sure like the gut microbiome and um, just all the immune modulation that can happen with cambo and clearing pathogens and chronic infections and things like that could potentially result in, you know, later cascades of like immune modulation.

[03:50:19] I don't really know for sure though because you know, as a practitioner you see people in these like vulnerable moments and then you check in on them, you know, a few days later they maybe tell you something amazing, but you don't really know what, what's happening in their life three months later, six months later.

[03:50:38] Luke Storey: Right. You don't have the longitudinal study capacity with people. Yeah, I mean at least with the study we did actually look at three months, but we didn't ask them about allergies. Um, so that would be really cool to look at too. But yeah, I guess I don't really know for sure. And what I do know also is that it's not always consistent, right?

[03:50:59] Caitlin Thompson: Like [03:51:00] sometimes. People get certain types of results and other times people will get other types of results. And it's a bit of a mixed bag. And that's part of why I like it. 'cause it's like novel and, and unpredictable in a way. Um, but you never really know how things are gonna unfold for somebody. But I generally don't see people get worse in their health.

[03:51:22] Luke Storey: What about, uh, Lyme disease? That seems to be one that people are really mystified by and they're, you know, now with the kind of prevalence of alternative modalities, there's a lot of different things I hear about in the periphery that people are having success with, but because of our bioindividuality, it doesn't seem like there's a one size fits all.

[03:51:42] Same with cancer, right? It's like, yeah. I mean, I don't think I would ever get chemo or radiation, but I've known people that have had that and walked away cancer free and they're stoked. And some people it's made them worse. And I know people that have done every alternative modality in the world and still succumb to cancer.

[03:51:59] Caitlin Thompson: [03:52:00] Yeah. And others that did the one thing, the apricots or whatever, and they're good. You know, it's just, I know that it's very unpredictable, but Lyme disease seems to be one that's becoming more prevalent and really difficult to treat. Yeah, I, so from my experience, Cambo is very effective for. Increasing the quality of life and, you know, people that have Lyme disease, um, you know, I, does it eradicate the bacteria?

[03:52:25] I don't know. Do I even believe personally that the bacteria is the full story? No, I see Lyme disease more as an immune dysfunction syndrome that is often accompanied by an a bacterial infection. And, you know, sometimes you see these co-infections, oftentimes Epstein-Barr virus is implicated as well. So I don't know how much I really believe in like an eradication approach as being the solution.

[03:52:50] Yeah, you do need to have like a reasonable microbial load. And if you're, if you're immune compromised, um, because of stress or trauma [03:53:00] or de deficiency or whatever, then you're gonna become a sitting duck for organisms to throw a party. And until you have boundaries in your body and probably also your life, um, you're not going to be able to say like, Hey, you guys can't just grow to this proportion and take all my resources, like, like fuck off, you know?

[03:53:22] And um, so cavo, it does have this immunogenic effect, right? It's gonna boost the immune function, which I do think enhances the body's ability to like actually, uh, hold boundaries with pathogens in a way that maybe is out of whack once people are kind of in the full blown spiral of chronic illness. Um, so I don't.

[03:53:46] I think it's necessarily that the cambo has these like direct antimicrobial effects because even though there are peptides that show that like the derma pepins, the quantity of them that get through [03:54:00] into the bloodstream and then get distributed to where pathogens actually live, there's probably not a lot of direct contact happening.

[03:54:08] So I think there's more of like a, an indirect augmentation of your body's own immune intelligence, which I would argue is probably better anyways. Um, so I, I do think that it helps people clear out infections and find like a homeostatic balance with, you know, harmonizing with, um, organisms in their body and restoring like intelligent immune function because that's really what's gone wrong in these types of syndromes.

[03:54:39] It's that, you know, the immune system's underactive in certain areas and then it's overactive in other areas and it's super confused about what's friend, what's foe, right? It's attacking your tissue. You know, there is an inherent autoimmune element to things like Lyme disease and all these kind of chronic infection related, um, immune dysfunctional syndromes.

[03:54:59] [03:55:00] And, you know, I think that's mostly what drives these type of, um, illnesses for people is like the downstream immune function and then the bacteria calm because nobody's telling them to get out. And it's a bit of a snowball effect. So. You know, cambo is really effective on a physiological level for addressing those things.

[03:55:21] But the piece that I think is the most important is actually the psychosomatic aspect. Um, I'm sure you might have a similar experience where when you interact with people that have chronic illness, almost always there is an undercurrent of, um, trauma and, and emotional pain, right? Which then leads to like nervous system dysfunction and, and dysregulation and your vagal nerves all screwed up.

[03:55:51] And then all of that's like these downstream cascades of immune dysfunction, immune compromisation. 'cause that's what we know stress response does, [03:56:00] right? It, it shuts down the digestion. You're not getting nutrients, it shuts down the, uh, immune function shuts off reproduction. None of those are essential when you're running from the lion.

[03:56:09] So if you're a child living hyper vigilantly in a house that feels unsafe or whatever, um, your, your nervous system is going to just be in this like chronic sympathetic overdrive all the time. And that's what I see in all these people that have Lyme disease and, you know, all these chronic illnesses, they almost always share that in common.

[03:56:31] And what I've seen with Cabo is that if you do not address that components of your illness, you will not get better. I've seen people with pristine diets, they've done IV antibiotics, they're on all the supplements, all the, you know, most expensive modalities. But what they haven't done is actually taken responsibility for taking their own [03:57:00] agency back, right?

[03:57:00] And, and actually acknowledging like where they're not confronting their own pain, that is then trapped in the nervous system and continuing to perpetuate these maladaptive signals to the rest of your physiology. And it makes sense. Your brain is like the master controller, right? Of all these downstream systems.

[03:57:22] So it, it's not really woo, you know, it, it might sound like that to people, but there's clear documented mechanisms of action on scientific level of how trauma and stress and nervous system activation, you know, lead to, you know, immune dysfunction and, um, illnesses and nutritional deficiencies, yada, yada, yada.

[03:57:45] So when people come and expect cambo to fix them, they say, oh, I heard it cures Lyme disease. It's gonna fix me. They don't get better unless they actually are willing to look at the [03:58:00] deeper piece of like, I don't feel safe in my body. I don't feel like I deserve love. I feel hypervigilant all the time. Uh, you know, whatever, just insert whatever reason here.

[03:58:12] But part of being a good practitioner is helping someone kind of excavate that stuff. 'cause they might show up to you, Hey, I wanna treat my Lyme disease. But you need to be able to guide them without invalidating them or gaslighting them, or, you know, making them come up with a made up spiritual or emotional reason.

[03:58:34] But you need to help them explore the deeper parts of their psyche so they can actually like access these things. Bring that to the forefront of their ceremony and address that in their experience. Because that's when people get better. When they really kind of go, like digging deep. They pull out these like, you know, root these seeds of their pain and they [03:59:00] actually like acknowledge them, witness them, and let them sort of neutralize and dissipate.

[03:59:05] Then the nervous system can finally be retrained into feeling safe, into feeling peace. The vagal nerve response can normalize and then all the downstream stuff will follow. So. That's something I really, you know, encourage people. If you're, if you're looking for any medicine to, um, heal you, you need to take responsibility for your part in this and, and find your power, find your agency.

[03:59:36] 'cause you cannot move forward in your healing until you restore a sense of control to navigating your own life and your wellness. That's beautiful. So important. I mean, I know many people that have tried all the things, you know, it's like nothing works. And I suspect that, um, it's very common that there are [04:00:00] psychological, spiritual, nervous system issues blocking it.

[04:00:05] Luke Storey: But what you um, kind of made me think of was with some of the other plant medicines and so on that uh, are not known to physically heal you. People commonly have these miraculous healings just because they got in and dealt with their trauma or had a really profound mystical experience. You know, I mean, even some people that have NDEs and they have terminal cancer and they come back and the cancer just melts off their body in two days, it's like, wow.

[04:00:34] You know, it's not, it's not because they did something on the gross physical level, it's because they accessed a certain level of consciousness or had a direct, um, and undeniable experience with God, right? And they come back and all of a sudden, as you said, downstream, the body's like, oh, okay, now I have some room to do what I'm supposed to do.

[04:00:53] I had an interesting experience like that. Actually, just thought of the last time, which might just be [04:01:00] the last time, famous last words. I sat with ayahuasca a couple years ago after not having done sofa a couple years before that. And I was like, I thought I was done before. And I was like, well, you know, it just, I felt called, right?

[04:01:13] So I went and had a ceremony and, um, it was actually very much like combo. I, I just like no discernible psychoactive effects. I just got really, really, really sick and super sweaty. Oh, and I thought for a minute, I mean, my wife was next to me. I almost had her call 9 1 1. I thought like we might have a problem.

[04:01:37] Houston situation, you know, thankfully she's an adept healer and held space for me, and I was able to breathe through it and I thought, I remember walking back to my, my room and, um, telling her, I said, so I don't forget this tomorrow, just mark my words. I'm never drinking ayahuasca ever again. It [04:02:00] was a nightmare.

[04:02:02] Fast forward, whatever next day, drank some chuma, got back in my body, everything was fine. But what was interesting about that is, you know, it was one of those situations where I thought, oh, nothing happened. Right? Because I wa you know, I wasn't getting downloads, I wasn't solving any problems, no information was being revealed to me.

[04:02:19] No, uh, memories coming back that I had forgotten that needed to be addressed and all that kind of stuff. So nothing had really happened, but I was having for, I don't know, two, three years before that, pretty reoccurring vertigo where I just be driving or what, doing whatever. And I was just kind of like brain foggy and dizzy and kind of nauseous feeling.

[04:02:39] And I went to a couple neurologists, I looked into it. No one could really figure out what was going on after that night. Until this moment right now, knock on wood, I have never once had anything close to that vertigo feeling ever again. Hmm. So it's like, and I also didn't have a discernible spiritual experience or any kind of [04:03:00] insights that would, um, help make space for my body to heal.

[04:03:04] I really think that ayahuasca in its innate wisdom knew what it needed to do in my body and almost acted like combo in a sense where it physically healed me without me having, knowing the mechanism of action or what it even was, like what the cause of it was, you know? So I walked outta that going damn respect.

[04:03:23] It's really a case of, um, these medicines are just. They're beyond our comprehension and the way that they work, you know? So it's like, I can see how somebody working with combo going in with a, a very concrete goal in terms of something they want to heal physically, but not having the capacity or willingness to address the psychospiritual and emotional part.

[04:03:46] It not working. And you can also go in and work with psychoactive medicines and have nothing happen and it heals you physically. It's crazy. Yeah. These things are far more intelligent, not wild. Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna tell you, you're, you [04:04:00] know, you're deeply steeped in this. But that one was a huge lesson for me and just like, wow, dude, don't, don't have expectations.

[04:04:06] A and don't write something off because it didn't go how you want it to go, you know? 'cause I wanted the thing, right. You know, that thing, it's very specific to DMT. There's a, there's a, a realm, there's a range there. I really like it in there. You know, when I couldn't get there, I was pissed. Plus I just felt so, so terrible.

[04:04:26] But, you know, I walked away humbled and grateful to have been, um, to have been healed of that issue. With having zero intentionality around that. Yeah, I, you know, it's funny 'cause I've seen some bit of the opposite happen with Canva, where, you know, it is known for being so physical and I think people can often disregard the spiritual or emotional piece.

[04:04:48] Caitlin Thompson: 'cause they're like, ah, it's not even a psychedelic. And so often I have people come for physical detox or physical healing, and then, you know, when it's over, they're on the mat [04:05:00] crying and telling me about their childhood and all this stuff comes to the surface that they weren't expecting. And they have these surprisingly spiritual and emotional experiences that they were totally not prepared for at all and not what they signed up for.

[04:05:18] No. But you know, like these things, they often give us what we need and not what we want. Yeah. And, um, sometimes it looks different. Do you, do you think that, um, God or consciousness, you know, works through these substances? How much of it is God that created it? And how much of it is the innate intelligence, say of a toad or of a frog, or of this vine or this plant?

[04:05:45] Luke Storey: You know, and I know people that are more aligned in the traditional viewpoint of various plant medicines would say, oh no, it's, it's the plant that has that intelligence or the spirit for me. [04:06:00] Still, that's a little bit of a stretch. It feels more to me like God has a language. Right. And, and some of the way that it expresses itself through its language, for lack of a better term, just winging this is like, it might speak through that cactus in a way that makes it seem to me that that cactus is communicating with me.

[04:06:24] But there's kind of a, a conductor, right? That's like using that cactus as a tool that I can interface with. But I, I see it more as the conductor, that's the one that's doing the knowing and doing the doing and the, that the plant or tote or whatever it is, is, is kind of the conduit for consciousness.

[04:06:44] That's sort of where I arrived at it in this moment. What's your take on that perspective? Well, it's pretty heady. Um, I would ask what's the difference between you and I talking as being conduits of God consciousness, right. [04:07:00] For me, if we're gonna go there, I think, um, consciousness and source is, it's a bit like a tree, right?

[04:07:07] Caitlin Thompson: There is one source and then it can kind of go in branches. And that's where I think like things like demi gods or plant spirits, or even just phy, phylogenetic, branches of nature. Um. There are different sort of, um, concentrations and branches of God playing puppet with all these little creatures that he's made with matter.

[04:07:30] He, she they, whatever. Um, and yeah, so do I think that like these individual plants have spirit and intelligence? Yes. And they are conduits for God, consciousness, right, for source. But in the same way that you and I are, right? Like we have our own consciousness, we have our own sense of self, at least currently being alive as this human body.

[04:07:59] [04:08:00] Um, but at the end of the day, we're all still the little puppet skin pulled around, you know? And that's the cool thing about being alive and, and being, um, an organism, right? Is like we're all just little bits of God interacting with itself. I just imagine like, you know, God just playing puppets like with itself.

[04:08:22] Um, and that's the beauty of it. And in matter, you know, chemistry and biology and these intricate mechanisms of biology, they're all, they're all the, the language, like you said, that God uses to code, um, the world. That it's created for itself to be entertained and, and connected, um, just for the sake of existing, right?

[04:08:47] So. The answer is yes. And you know, it's like, I do think that they have their own personalities. I do think that they have their own flaws. I think that they have their own agendas. [04:09:00] I've gotten some really weird downloads before and, and I'm not like the type of per, I don't like sit there and do light language and like, I have a download.

[04:09:08] I need to tell everyone. Like I'm generally, you know, pretty down to earth about those things. But I haven't gotten really concrete messages before when like Cabo and Ayahuasca specifically are having. Temporary disagreements. Um, 'cause normally I find them to be allies and I got this like, just clear message one time that they were in a little bit of a tiff and they had disagreement about how to move forward dealing with the humans and a little bit of ego.

[04:09:41] Like I sensed there was a little bit of ego involved, um, where they were a bit proud and they were like, no, we're gonna do it this way. And like, stupid combo, you think it's better to do this way? And I actually felt like I got punished once in a, in a ayahuasca ceremony because it could feel the frog in me.

[04:09:58] Um, very much [04:10:00] like, oh, oh, interesting. Integrated. And, and it took it out on me. And then I was like, what the hell is that about? And that's when I kind of got this very sophisticated picture shown to me that there was a diplomatic disagreement happening. Um, and it just made me like, realize and appreciate how complex and dynamic these beings can be.

[04:10:22] 'cause you know, even though they might be closer to source in certain ways, they're still, they're still individualized to some capacity because they're not just the white light anymore. Yeah, right. Yeah. So they do have some sort of identities and personalities and sense of self, so I very much believe that that's true.

[04:10:40] Um, but yeah, if you just keep following, you know, the, the tree branches down. They all lead to the trunk at the end of the day. Beautifully said. I appreciate that. Uh, Caitlyn, I got one more question for you. Are you ready? Yeah. It's a three parter. Okay. Who have been, who have been three teachers or teachings in general that have made you [04:11:00] who you are today?

[04:11:02] Mm. One of 'em, without a doubt would be one of my indigenous maestros, Johnny Java, who sadly passed away about two years ago, unexpectedly. And yeah, just, um, witnessing him and his connection to the frogs and to his family and just the, the deep to humility and integrity and care and love, um, that he emanated in this world really has touched me.

[04:11:33] And I continue to be close with his family and, um, continue to co-create good things with them. So, um, I definitely hold a special place in my heart for him. You know, it's funny because a lot of the teachers I've had have taught me how not to be, um, which I guess is valuable too. I've learned a lot from my cambo teachers of how I don't wanna move through this world.[04:12:00]

[04:12:00] Um, I'm not gonna name them obviously. Um. Yeah, I just, you know, sometimes seeing the damage that can be done, when ego does get involved, it can inspire you to show up differently for your students. And it does still to this day. And, you know, actually, strangely enough, um, you, Rick Dolin, you know, he is a friend of mine, he is the, the founder of Maps.

[04:12:24] He really inspires me, uh, as far as like how to create actionable impact, um, in a field, in a space in the public's eye. And I really, in a lot of ways aspire to be like the Rick Doblin of the Cambo space. Um, 'cause I just see the dedication and, and just, you know, grit that he brings to. Persevering through all of the challenges to make psychedelic medicines accessible.

[04:12:54] And that's something I, I admire and want to channel into the work that I do [04:13:00] to continue to steward the inevitable expansion of combo with grace, with respect, with reverence, and with integrity. Um, you know, as this medicine grows, you know, we have a responsibility to, um, engage in reciprocity, uh, not only with the Amazonian people who stewarded it, but also the frog itself, and make sure that we are informing people and keeping them safe and equipping them to really get the most out of their engagement with this medicine and reduce harm, uh, as much as possible.

[04:13:37] Because this medicine is truly benevolent beyond what I've ever felt with any other, you know, pla spirit or substance. And I think that it's not that difficult to keep people safe and to do a good job. We just have to kind of come back to our hearts and our, our values. And my, my goal is to support [04:14:00] people in reconnecting, um, to their, their self, so that it feels easy to walk a path of integrity while utilizing these medicines.

[04:14:11] Luke Storey: Beautiful. Yeah, that was a good closer. Yeah. Thank you so much for making the time to come out here and see me in Texas. Texas. I, I'm always looking for, uh, and you know, I, I sense your humility, so I know this won't go to your head, but. When it comes to a, an important topic like this, you know, people show up and there's always opportunities to host someone on a podcast, but I'm always kind of waiting for the og.

[04:14:37] Like I, you know, I always, I, I want the person who's most deeply invested in, or experienced in whatever said topic or modality is. So, did we meet through Todd Shipman? Do you know Todd? Uh, yeah. I was the first person to serve him. Okay. Yeah, he took one of my courses though, so, yeah, I, I think he was the one that recommended, uh, you to me.

[04:14:57] Oh, cool. And, um, yeah. [04:15:00] And so, uh. I, I'm sure I asked him like, yeah, but is it the, is it, is she the one, you know, like, I want the og, I want the most badass. You know, so you definitely delivered that. I appreciate your dedication. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate your dedication to the work and, um, you know, walking with integrity in this space, it's, you know, it's unregulated.

[04:15:19] Things are wonky and you know, I really appreciate when someone has the reverence that you do. So thank you. Thank you. And, uh, thanks so much for the opportunity. I am, I feel that, you know, this information needs to be shared. Um, the, the frogs out of the bag, as they say, and we are at a pivotal moment where we need to inform people about this so that we can preserve our access to this medicine before we mess it up.

[04:15:47] Caitlin Thompson: So I appreciate the platform and, and the ability to kind of have my voice be heard and, um, provide that support to others.

[04:15:59] Luke Storey: And that, my [04:16:00] friends, is what we call a wrap. Thanks for hanging out on this week's episode of the Life Stylist. But before I sign off, I want to remind you about one of the best ways to support the show while also upgrading your life. My online master market, that's where I've curated a collection of my favorite lifestyle design products, world class supplements, EMF protection, gear, water purification, blue light solutions, biohacking tech, and tons more.

[04:16:25] And these aren't just random health products. I mean, you can find that on Amazon. I've tested and vetted every item on the site, so if you see it there, it's something I personally use and trust. So if you've ever wondered what brands I actually use day to day or where you can find the gear, I'm always talking about the master market is your one stop resource to check it out.

[04:16:46] Head over to luke story.com/store, can browse around, pick up some upgrades, and know that every purchase helps this show keep trucking. And the best part is that nearly everything listed there comes with an exclusive discount [04:17:00] just for life stylist listeners. So you get cutting edge tools to optimize your mind, body, and spirit, and save some dough in the process.

[04:17:08] Again, that link is luke story.com/store. Get in there and dig around and stock up on the best of the best. And you can click that link right in this episode. Description. Oh, and don't miss the search bar while you're there. That's how you can quickly find exactly what you're looking for without getting lost.

[04:17:26] All right. That's it. Until next time, be well and share this episode with someone you love. Hell share it with someone you're struggling to love because everyone deserves it.

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