Connie Zack: [00:00:00]Infrared. A lot of times people get confused. They think infrared is like UV orthey think it has microwave. As far as the light spectrum, infrared is just onetiny little part of the light spectrum. But that energy comes directly from thesun without any of the dangerous wavelengths. So out of that entire lightspectrum, it's really what I call the healing part of this light spectrum. Thebenefits, they continue. I know it's been a lot of years, but they continue toblow my mind on how something so easy to do, so natural-- the spectrum comesfrom the sun, you can do every day, and you can really change your life. I'mConnie Zack, and this is the Life Stylist Podcast.

Luke Storey: [00:00:55]Well, it's time to turn up the heat, my friends. This is Episode 477: The TruthAbout Infrared Sauna Therapy: The Complete Guide to Detox and Healing withConnie Zack. You'll find your show notes, links, and transcripts atlukestorey.com/sauna. Today's guest, Connie Zack, is co-owner of Sunlighten,the global leader in infrared light therapy and infrared sauna manufacturing.She's also just an overall badass, and someone deeply committed to making apositive contribution to humanity and to this show. 

After getting anawesome sunlight and sauna here at the house, I knew I had to do a full reporton what makes a sauna brand tick and how to get the most out of our saunasessions. I'm always keen on sharing my favorite wellness practices on theshow, and, man, infrared saunas are on the top of that list and have been for avery long time. So if you've ever had any questions about sauna therapy and howto choose the best for your needs and goals, this episode, my friends, is foryou. 

Here's just a bit ofthe ground we cover in this chat: Connie's tips for running a business withyour spouse; the crazy competition in the sauna industry and why some brandsare stuck in a scarcity mindset. I'm telling you guys, in that industry, man,they are cutthroat, and we're going to find out why. What inspired Connie toget into infrared saunas and start her company Sunlighten; what sets infraredsaunas apart from barrel or traditional saunas; the differences in the variouswavelengths used in infrared saunas; some of the common issues with saunas likeEMF pollution, toxic glues, and off-gassing woods.

And we also get deepinto the weeds on the seemingly endless list of proven health benefits frominfrared sauna therapy, including, but not limited to cardiovascular health,blood pressure regulation, heavy metal detox, chronic illness, pain, woundhealing, mood disorders, infrared saunas for brain health, includingpossibilities for mitigating Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease. And somegreat tips to get the very most out of your sauna sessions; and finally, why Iprefer to disable Wi-Fi and Bluetooth when I take my saunas. 

And before we get intothis thing, I want to let you know that Connie and her team at Sunlighten haveoffered up a sweet discount for Life Stylist listeners. I love when they dothat. To get one of your own, here's what you do. Visitlukestorey.com/sunlighten, and if you use the code LUKESTOREY, you can save upto 600 bucks on your purchase. lukestorey.com/sunlighten. Okay, let's all tuneour ears to the sound of the inspiring and informative words of Connie Zack onthe Life Stylist. Enjoy the show and make sure to share this episode withsomeone who loves to sauna.

Connie Zack: [00:03:37]I'm Connie Zack, and this is the Life Stylist Podcast.

Luke Storey: [00:03:43]All right, Connie. Here we go. Our maiden voyage podcast. And so we're going tobe talking about infrared heat, and saunas, and all the various ways that itcan be so healing for people. And in preparation for our discussion today, Iactually used my Sunlighten sauna right over there in the flex space because Iwanted to talk about it and be able to talk about it with authenticity. So itwas a good bonus for me this morning because I might not have had timeotherwise, but I counted it as part of our interview.

Connie Zack: [00:04:15]That's fantastic.

Luke Storey: [00:04:16]Yeah, and it was amazing.

Connie Zack: [00:04:17]For my morning.

Luke Storey: [00:04:18]I feel so good. Jumped in the ice bath after that, and took my littlesupplement stack, and I'm ready to rock and roll. So take me back to thebeginning of how you got into sauna therapy and went on to create a companythat makes awesome saunas.

Connie Zack: [00:04:37]Oh, well, thank you for that, and thanks for having me here. I really want tocompliment you on owning the fact that we are going to be in person. A lot ofpeople don't do that, and so I think there's nothing better than having thisenergy, and seeing you, and feeling your energy, and being in your space, andseeing your sauna. So thank you for having me.

Luke Storey: [00:04:59]Yeah. And thank you for making the time. When I can get away with it, it'spretty much a requirement that we do it in person because it's way more fun forme, and hopefully the guest, and definitely the audience. And it makes for waybetter video too.

Connie Zack: [00:05:14]Yeah. So I just think it's great.

Luke Storey: [00:05:16]Cool.

Connie Zack: [00:05:17]As far as the Sunlighten journey, we go way back, 25-plus years ago. It's crazywhen I say that because I don't physically feel old enough to have been doingthis for that long. So it's almost hard to hear myself say that. So my brotherwas suffering from chronic fatigue and heavy metal toxicity, which wasdetermined by his dentist. And his dentist said, Jason, I think that you havemercury leaking into your body, which is causing all the fatigue and it'scausing the vertigo, and it's causing the low energy levels. 

And essentially, hecouldn't function. He couldn't work. He couldn't do anything. And he triedmedicine. He went outside the United States, and he did lots of differentthings and nothing worked. And until his dentist identified the source andsaid, I've read some articles from some studies in Asia about infraredwavelength, and that if you can get it into your body, it can help pull outtoxic elements. And mercury is very heavy, and it's very difficult if it's inyour body to get it out of your body. And again, remember, this is a long timeago when people didn't even know anything about nothing.

Luke Storey: [00:06:45]I'm shocked that a dentist 25 years ago would even admit that.

Connie Zack: [00:06:50]I know. I think about him and I mentally send him just this amazing gratitude,this heartfelt gratitude for sharing that with my brother because it changedhis life. It's changed my life. It's changed the lives of many people becausehe shared that. And my aunt, who was, at that time, really into alternativehealing started to do research. And she said, yeah, there's some infraredfibers. And so he first got a blanket, and that helped a little bit, just aregular blanket with some infrared fibers. But, I mean, he still needed tosweat, and he wasn't sweating. 

And so there was aninfrared sauna on the market back then, and he bought it and started thejourney. It took them a long time, but he did heal himself back to a normallife as a result of sweating and doing that every day. And we were in St. Louisat the time, and I saw him go through this journey, and I was working atProcter & Gamble in the pharmaceutical division. So I started doingresearch on the medical aspect of it. So I had access to that. I could notbelieve all the research that had been done in Asia that nobody knew anythingabout.

I'm like, holy cow, ifsomebody were to take that science, because again, this was my backgroundbecause I was in the pharmaceutical leading a cardiovascular andgastrointestinal division, if somebody could take that science, put some meaton it, and develop a better product because that one took them a long time,this changes lives. And so that was how everything started. Um, so there's tonsto that story, but that's the really quick version.

Luke Storey: [00:08:48]At that point, had you been someone who was using saunas at the spa, or gym, oranything like that?

Connie Zack: [00:08:56]No. Did I say no? In fact, I was extremely-- and I've learned about myself--I'm skeptical by nature. That's just my natural-- I'm always, okay, I'm seekingto understand. I'm going to seek and seek, and then research myself. Andultimately, I have to experience in order to be a true advocate for anything.That's why I got into the science, and I started to do research. I neversauna-ed and my brother said, come over to my place and use mine so you canfeel it. And I'm like, whatever. I'm like, there's nothing happening.

And then I saw him gothrough this journey, and, I mean, literally, it changed his life. And hestarted sharing his story. And the great thing about sharing somebody's story,which people are doing more now, but people didn't do that back then, is therewere so many other people who had the same type of thing, but they didn't knowwhat was going on in their body either. They had chronic fatigue, or they hadfibromyalgia. They had pain. But the doctors were saying, take some Advil.

And these were theband-aid ways, which is what I was doing for my career. I thought I was-- Imean, I felt good about making a difference in what I was doing. And I loveP&G. I mean, it's a great company, and I loved my training there, and thepeople there were fantastic. But then when I saw that my brother was able tocure himself in a safe, natural way without side effects, in the comfort of hisown home, without doctors, I was like, oh, my gosh. 

Because my mission, aswell as Aaron, my husband, my business partner, our mission was always to makea difference in this world. And we were constantly having conversations beforemy brother started all these about, how do we do that? Because that's what wewere put on this earth to do. And when this happened, we were like, oh, okay,we need to bring this technology forth and let people know, and share thebenefits with everybody else.

Luke Storey: [00:11:11]Well, it's interesting thinking back to things like fibromyalgia and chronicfatigue. My mom was diagnosed with chronic fatigue, I don't know, 30 years agoor something. And not only was the most common solution offered somepharmaceutical medicine, but there was also a lot of doubt and disbelief onbehalf of the medical professionals to the point where it actually becamereally frustrating for her because it was implied that it was psychosomatic.You're just imagining it because we can't find any concrete evidence thatthere's something wrong with you. 

And yet this person,not just my mom, but I'm sure tens of thousands of other people that havetoxicity, it's just this nebulous symptomatic issue where in your body hurtsall the time or you're tired all the time. So you go to the doctor, they checkyou out by the standard metrics of measurement, and they say, no, you're fine.Therefore, you have to be imagining this. And it's such a frustratingexperience for people. And that's still, I think, somewhat prevalent in themedical industry traditionally. 

But thankfully, we havemany people that have ventured into the functional medicine, and most people, Ithink, that are at all interested in health are aware of things like heavymetal toxicity. It's become more mainstream, thankfully. But I feel for thepeople like your brother and like my mom and many other people back in the daywhere you go to the doctor and there's like, there's nothing wrong with you.It's like, ah, pulling your hair out going, yes, there is. What is it?

Connie Zack: [00:12:44]Right. Exactly. And that is why I would get out of bed every morning, when wewere-- because we were struggling. We left our jobs. Just crazy. When I thinkback of what we did, I mean, I had a really great job. Aaron also worked atP&G in pharmaceutical. He had a great job. I mean, it takes a lot to starta business, especially in the manufacturing and product. And I don't want to gointo all that aspect, but I mean, we were all in. 

But I would just getexcited in the morning because I would think about while it was only a fewcustomers that we sold back then in the basement, and I think about them. And Iwould tell them, you don't have to feel this way. Stop accepting the fact that,oh, I just have this. That you don't have to. You can get it out of your body.You can transform yourself, and you can feel better and do more of what youwant to do. Don't accept that. That's not okay. You got a long life to live.And so, yeah, it's a wonderful journey.

Luke Storey: [00:13:53]That's a huge part of it is that determination. And I think-- I don't know ifyou can develop that. I've always been that way, myself. If there's anythingwrong with me, troubling me, limiting my quality of life, I just refuse toaccept it. And there's always things like my back hurts, or I have some sinusinfection thing that I've probably had for a long time, and it seems to be, sofar, incurable by all the ways that I've tried to treat it, but I still won'tgive up. 

I'm like, I know thebody has a perfect blueprint for health. We're born into this world with thisincredible living, breathing machine that is programmed to live well and prosper.So it's like, what am I doing that's interfering with the body's naturalprocess to feel good, and to thrive, and to repair itself? And usually, itseems that there's either some input that's disrupting that process that I needto stop or there's something missing that I need to add, which is infraredlights, a great example of that.

I think a lot of ourmodern illness has to do with the fact that we're just indoors all the timeunder blue light, and we're not out in the sun. We've been brainwashed to thinkthat the sun is bad for you, and that fat is bad for you, and sugar is bad foryou, and all these things. 

There's so muchmarketing behind all of the things that we eat and so many things that we usein our day-to-day lives. You have to really weed through the falsehood to findthe fundamental truth of what's the body missing that it needs, and what's thebody getting that it doesn't want? And that's that innate intelligence that weall have if we tap into it.

Connie Zack: [00:15:38]Right. And it is tapping into it. It's the whole mental aspect. I think that'sone of the things that's missing with a lot of people is when they talk tomaybe a physician and the physician says, hey, you're okay. This is just a signof aging or this is a sign-- 

Luke Storey: [00:15:55]I hate that.

Connie Zack: [00:15:56]I know. One of my pet peeves. I hate that statement. But you hear-- I mean,they say it all the time or they, oh, this is just because you're going throughthis. And then people respond to that and they create this what I call a mentaltape in their head, and that they need to change that. No, this isn't becauseof that. I really want to feel better, and then ultimately, take it uponyourself. I mean, to explore, listen to your podcast, just to find-- 

Luke Storey: [00:16:28]I like that suggestion.

Connie Zack: [00:16:30]Find ways. Well, I mean, it's a good source of safe, natural ways to empoweryourself to do the things that make you feel better and have a great lifestyle.

Luke Storey: [00:16:44]The mindset is such a huge part of it. I hear stories about someone with acancer diagnosis that's told they have X amount of time to live, and they dieright on that date. And then other people who get the same diagnosis andthey're like, delete. I'm not accepting that thought. I'm going to get throughthis, and they do. So much of it has to do with the mind. 

I want to ask you,what's it been like for you and your husband, Aaron, to run a company together?How have you navigated maintaining the romance and ease in your relationshipand also both, I'm sure, being some type of driving force in the growth of yourcompany and success? Because I found out about you guys some years ago. 

I mean, I knew that youexisted in the periphery, and I've seen you guys just blow up over the years,and I'm sure that didn't happen without a lot of hard work from both of you.What's that like on a day-to-day basis? Has there been things that you've hadto navigate through in order to keep the sanctity of your marriage together aspartners in business?

Connie Zack: [00:17:46]That's a great question, and people don't normally ask that. So kudos to youbecause that's a podcast in itself.

Luke Storey: [00:17:52]Yeah, totally. I know.

Connie Zack: [00:17:54]How to run a business together.

Luke Storey: [00:17:56]Yeah.

Connie Zack: [00:17:59]There really, really is-- I have so much respect for Aaron. I have so muchrespect for his brain, for his heart, for who he is as a person. Andfortunately, I was able to-- before we started dating, I saw all of that atProcter, and I mean, he was one of my good friends. And I loved his honesty,and his transparency, and his authenticity. He owned it when he made a mistakeat work, which at P&G, that's just hard. Some of the things--

Luke Storey: [00:18:40]I think in the pharmaceutical industry, transparency and honesty is probablynot one of the highest values. No offense to you. That's your prior career.

Connie Zack: [00:18:49]No. But I mean, he had so many characteristics that I just really admired andrespected. And I saw him also on a work performance level, so then actually onthe skills, and he had some really beautiful skill set. And so when we decidedto do this, we actually always talked, before we started dating, about creatinga product together, doing something to make a-- we'd always have sideconversations just because we felt there was something missing with the innerfulfillment at P&G, and we really wanted something more. So we already hadthose conversations. 

And then when thishappened, we were dating and we're like, maybe this is the business. And so Inever, and I know Aaron, if he was here, he would say the same thing, never didwe ever think, oh, this is not a good idea to get in business with somebodythat you're going to eventually spend your life with. Because when we startedit, we were either just dating or just got engaged, just got engaged. And thenwe put the business at our home in our basement. And he moved into my house,which is, I mean, there was so much change. We're mortgaging everything tofund, to buy containers of saunas to be able to ship to customers.

And it was crazy. Butalong the way, to get to your question, as far as the whole journey, has therebeen challenges? Of course. But the thread that is consistent from thebeginning to today is the respect that we have for each other. And I know wherehe's coming from. I know his intentions are pure. I know we always want to dothe right thing. We have a North Star. 

It's just like, even inthe darkest days, sometimes in our business and we didn't have, again, anymoney and couldn't fund things and a customer needed X, Y, and Z, we're like,you know what, we're going to give them X, Y, and Z, even though we don't havethe resources to do that and we shouldn't be doing that, that's the right thingto do. And so he comes at the business that way, and I come at the businessthat way, and that's how we raise our kids, which is also a challenge when youhave two kids in a business, which we didn't have when we started everything.

Luke Storey: [00:21:19]Because the business is like a kid.

Connie Zack: [00:21:22]It is.

Luke Storey: [00:21:23]It's a living, breathing entity.

Connie Zack: [00:21:24]It is.

Luke Storey: [00:21:25]I'm in the process of handing off a business I started years ago for someoneelse to steward and for which to carry the legacy, and it feels like I'msending a kid off to college. There so much--

Connie Zack: [00:21:38]Yeah. That I haven't done that yet.

Luke Storey: [00:21:39]I don't have kids yet, but that's the closest thing I can imagine to it.There's some parallel to that of, you're nurturing something, and it has a lifeof its own. Obviously, it's not a kid, but it's a similar kind of thing becauseany business requires attention. It requires care, and love, and presence, justlike any other relationship. You have a relationship to your business in asimilar way as you do to people. You stop loving on it, it withers.

Connie Zack: [00:22:08]Right. Yeah, it's very true.

Luke Storey: [00:22:10]I got another question for you about the business. And I know I'm hitting youfrom left field here.

Connie Zack: [00:22:14]No, whatever.

Luke Storey: [00:22:15]These are the-- 

Connie Zack: [00:22:16]I'm here for you.

Luke Storey: [00:22:17]These are the things I lay awake at night thinking about because I'm just weirdlike that. I've noticed, in the many years now that I've been working withdifferent brands, and have sponsors of the podcast, and I find cool things inthe world, and I promote them. 
I have a lot of relationships with brands, and I've noticed that there are acouple of industries where there is this cutthroat competition between thedifferent companies, and it's much more prevalent than it is with other typesof products and services. The two that I think are the most interesting in thisregard are the sauna industry and the mattress industry.

Connie Zack: [00:22:55]Oh, that's interesting. I've never heard that before.

Luke Storey: [00:22:57]Yeah. There's a lot of jealousy, and possessiveness, and it's just weird. Soit's just something I've observed. I work with one brand, and they get pissedif I work with another brand, or on the websites, there's, all these otherbrands suck. These comparison charts, and things like that, you don't find thatwith a magnesium supplement or something. It's like, yeah, ours is great, butthere's not an attack on the other purveyors of that particular class ofproduct. Have you observed that as being someone who's the head of a veryprominent sauna company? And if so, why do you think that is specifically inthe sauna industry?

Connie Zack: [00:23:35]Yeah. Can I ask you a question before I answer that?

Luke Storey: [00:23:38]Yeah.

Connie Zack: [00:23:38]So have you noticed that in the-- when you say sauna, you're talking aboutinfrared sauna? Correct. I just want to-- 

Luke Storey: [00:23:45]Yeah. I would say so, yeah. Because there's the barrel sauna industry. Theyhave their own thing. I don't think it's as prevalent there because a lot ofthose are just white-labeled, and they're made in China. There isn't therearen't a lot of like flagship outdoor barrel sauna companies. There'sdistributors, whereas in the infrared space, there's a few big players, andthey seem to be manufacturing their own product and marketing their ownproduct. And I have not noticed that coming from you guys. It's an observation.

Connie Zack: [00:24:14]That was my next question was-- I mean, I would be really surprised if you hadexperienced that on the Sunlighten side.

Luke Storey: [00:24:21]I have not.

Connie Zack: [00:24:22]Okay. And then my last question was--

Luke Storey: [00:24:24]I'm trying to be polite and not name names.

Connie Zack: [00:24:27] No. You don't have to. It doesn't--

Luke Storey: [00:24:29]But to be fair, no, I've not noticed that with you guys.

Connie Zack: [00:24:33]So yes. I mean, I haven't thought of that experience in many years. So that'sinteresting that you bring it up. That's really interesting to me that youbring it up in 2023 because that was something that was really prevalent backbefore we introduced Impulse. We introduced Impulse in 2010. So back in theearly-- when we started, and then we were on Oprah in 2009, and then it gotreally, really bad, the worst. I mean, everybody was like, well, we're justlike Sunlighten. We were the ones that were on. And they're like, we have onetoo.

It was really--cutthroat is a perfect word. And we actually tried to start-- I've never sharedthis with anybody. We tried to start a infrared sauna society where we bandedthe companies together. We reached out to somebody who was in the traditionalside who we really had a lot of respect for. He was the head of just traditional,a company that's over there, and said, hey, you guys have been doing this along time. You hold yourself with grace and high authenticity and highstandards. And it's not that way over on this side. Can we work together tobring people together and have meetings to say, let's work together? 

I mean, nobody knows.We created a category. It's really hard. And we started the infrared saunacategory, really. There was another company, but they weren't really doing muchto bring awareness to what is infrared and why does it work and all of that.And so if the rising tide lifts all boats, so why can't we just all worktogether? There's plenty of people who don't know anything about this category.And then you can go and tell your story about what makes your brand different,unique, etc. But nobody wanted anything to do with it.

Luke Storey: [00:26:45]That's funny.

Connie Zack: [00:26:46]So it has been, I mean, at least five years since I have heard any drama. Imean, it may have been longer. So it's interesting, obviously, but hearing youask that question, it's still out there, which makes me a little sad.

Luke Storey: [00:27:03]To be fair, it may have softened a bit in recent years, and I just haven'tnoticed. But I've been using infrared sauna since the mid '90s, and promotingdifferent brands, and working with different brands for eight or so years. Soit's possible that it's not as bad. I notice when there's noise of thatcompetitive, cutthroat energy, more so because it's specific to a couple of categories.Another one would be our red light therapy. The red light therapy companiesget--

Connie Zack: [00:27:34]They hate each other.

Luke Storey: [00:27:34]Well, there's a lot of infighting and competition. And how you mentioned arising tide raises all ships, I think why I find this phenomenon so strange isjust because of my worldview being such that I see eight billion people on theplanet that are all potentially toxic because of what we've done to the planet,and our food supply, and everything, and so there's no shortage of customers.And nature is infinitely abundant. If none of the infrastructure of society washere, and we were still hunter-gatherer people, there's literally no shortageof anything.

There's watereverywhere. There's sunlight everywhere. There's fire everywhere. There'sfruits everywhere. There's animals to eat everywhere. And that's still the wayit is. But because of the way things have been structured, there's an impliedsense of scarcity because there's advantages to corporations that provideproducts and services to people, and for them to facilitate the belief systemthat there's a shortage, puts everyone in competition and makes everyone at thetop more money basically.

I mean I'm going intomy conspiratorial range here, but that's just the way I view the world. So whensomething is not like that and somebody who's the head of a company or head ofmarketing doesn't see that there's plenty for everyone, it's just strange tome. And I'm just going, come on, you guys. Like you attempted to do, we can allwork together because everyone has a unique feature. I love my Sunlightensauna. There's other brands out there that have other unique benefits, and theymake their box a little different. Or I have one here that's a tent and it haslights in it.

It's like, I like both.I can't pick. And I think that's something too from the consumer standpoint isit's partly driven by consumers because people want a black-and-white decision.They want to know the best one of any given thing, and sometimes there's thebest five because each one has nuances to the way they produce a certainproduct or provide a service that's unique. It's apples and oranges. They'reboth great. What do you want today? 

So EMF protection isone thing like that. People always say, is this thing better than that thing?They're both awesome. I can't pick. If you're so situated, use both. If not,tune in to your intuition and pick the one you want. So anyway, I was justcurious about your perspective on that.

Connie Zack: [00:29:58]Yeah. No. Like I said, I haven't been asked that in a long, long time, and itbrings back a lot. Just you asking that question brings back so many memoriesof I mean, now remembering all the phone calls that we used to make, I mean,this is 12, 13, 14 years. I mean, it's been a long time. But we would call theCEO or the head of some of the companies that were just-- because customerswould come to us. That's how we would find out. They would say, so-and-so orthis company said this. I mean, they're like, they hate you.

I don't understand whatwe did. So you said that exact-- when you said those words, as far as thescarcity aspect, the scarcity mentality, I remember saying, have the abundancementality. We haven't even scratched the surface. I mean, this is 2012. That's11-- I mean, it's so long ago. And we still had-- I mean, people know aboutinfrared saunas, but there's still plenty of awareness that we can do toeducate people and bring more light to the subject. So we said that. We're notscraping for one customer like you can have them.

Luke Storey: [00:31:16]And also, if the five top dogs in any category want to scale, it makes sensethat the more prevalent, the understanding of the benefits of that class ofproduct is, the more customers there are for everyone. You know what I'msaying? 

It's like, if everyonein the world right now knew that infrared saunas were awesome and that everyhousehold would benefit from having one, the consumer cost of that product wouldgo down exponentially, and each company would have more sales because yourcustomer base would be bigger because the information is getting out, ratherthan people spending their time trying to cut the other companies down. 

You would spend yourtime spreading awareness and providing education for people on the benefits ofthat category of product. So if anyone's listening that owns a company inwellness, come on, there's plenty of us customers here.

Connie Zack: [00:32:08]Yes. Exactly. Build awareness for the category and then focus on your messagewith your brand. And that's it. And thank-- this is the other thing is youshould have gratitude, in my opinion, to whichever company it is. For us beingon Oprah, to use Sunlighten as an example, other companies, that's we brought,or we didn't, she brought so much attention to the category. So that's great.Just like you said, that brings awareness. 

So if you own your ownbusiness, if somebody is listening, and maybe you're not the leader, and somebodyis doing something, lift them up, and then just ride with them. Because if youlift them up, it's going to benefit you. If you try to break them down, you'reonly hurting yourself. And it just doesn't reflect great on your brand.

Luke Storey: [00:33:07]You made me think about the competitive edge as a podcaster, and I thoughtabout who I think is the biggest podcast in the world, probably, the Joe Roganexperience. And I think of that. And of course, there's a side of me that'slike, oh God, I wish my show was that big. 

But the other side is,there will probably be at some point a certain number of people that find outabout podcasts because they find that podcast, and then they start listening topodcasts and could very well end up listening to mine because the Joe Roganpodcast exists, and now everyone in the world knows what a podcast is. When Istarted, I would meet people all the time and they'd say, what do you do? And Isay, oh, I have a podcast. And like, what's that? Really? Now I don't get thatquestion.

Connie Zack: [00:33:50]That's awesome.

Luke Storey: [00:33:51]Everyone knows, and maybe it's because of the big dogs like Rogan and othersthat have really made that platform viable and widely known. So let's get intothe different types of saunas. So for those listening that are new to the ideaof infrared saunas, maybe break down the broad stroke differences between a hotbox sauna with a metal heater in it and the barrel saunas, as Imentioned. 

What differentiatesthat type of sauna? Or maybe you could say a Nordic or Finnish or Swedishsauna. Many people are used to those. There's wood-fired sauna. So just give usan overview of the category of sauna and what makes infrared saunas different.

Connie Zack: [00:34:34]Okay. So the Nordic or Swedish or what we call traditional saunas are poweredby hot air. The hotter the air gets, the shorter the wavelength gets. And whythat matters to the body is that the heat stays in the cabin. Whatever. Whetherit's a box, it's a barrel, it doesn't matter. So you get hot because the air ishot. So that is the fundamental, the way it works with a hot rocks steam,whatever, in the non-infrared. We'll just put them all in non-infraredcategory.

The infrared categoryis based on longer wavelength. Well, let's talk-- because there's differentparts of the inference. So right now let's just focus on far-infrared for thisdiscussion. We can always get into other parts later, but far infrared, becausethat's the main one that people are aware of. 

That wavelength is verylong and it operates by a lower temperature so that the heat can be adsorbedinto the body. So it's a really counterintuitive experience. It's taken a lotof work by Sunlighten over the years to try and help people understand, becausea lot of times when they get in, into the cabin, they don't have that shockwhere you gasped your breath.

Luke Storey: [00:36:14]Takes your breath away.

Connie Zack: [00:36:14]Right. You get in, and it's like, it's not hot. I remember saying that to mybrother way back, forever ago. I'm like, what are you talking about? It's nothot in here. It's because the wavelength is long and it's focusing on your bodydirectly, which we can go into at any point in time, how you get all of thetransformative cell benefits that are different from a traditionalexperience. 

And that's really themain difference is cooler temperatures in infrared saunas, hotter temperaturesin traditional saunas. And cooler, when I say that, for people who are listening,it's not cold, but it isn't just really excessively hot. You will feel hot. Youwill sweat when you're in there, but you're doing it when the wavelength getsinto the body. Versus you will sweat-- a lot of times people sweat right awaywhen they get into a sauna at the gym because it's so hot. Your bodyimmediately starts to go into sweat mode.

Luke Storey: [00:37:25]Got it.

Connie Zack: [00:37:26]Does that help?

Luke Storey: [00:37:26]Totally. Yeah. And it reminds me of, to illustrate the difference, when Itravel somewhere cold, which I try to avoid, but if I do go to the mountains orsomething and it's snowy and freezing, I love to go outside and take my shirtoff on a freezing day when it's sunny, especially if you're at a high altitude. 

I used to live inColorado, and it's like, I would go skiing in jeans and a t-shirt, and I don'tknow, it's 40 degrees or something. But the sun is baking. You're 10,000ftcloser to the sun or whatever. And I never understood how that could work,where I could be warm in the sun, yet the air is freezing. It speaks to that,right?

Connie Zack: [00:38:05]Yeah. Well, it comes from-- so the infrared, a lot of times people getconfused. They think infrared is like UV, or they think it has microwave. Asfar as the light spectrum, infrared is just one tiny little part of the lightspectrum, but that energy comes directly from the sun without any of thedangerous wavelengths. Out of that entire light spectrum, it's really what Icall the healing part of this light spectrum.

All three differentcategories are-- I mean, it's the most amazing light category. I mean, thebenefits, they continue. I know it's been a lot of years, but they continue toblow my mind on how something so easy to do, so natural-- the spectrum comesfrom the sun, you can do every day, and you can really change your life.

Luke Storey: [00:39:04]Yeah, I certainly have. Again, I don't know how I'd live without an infraredsauna. I mean, it's just like, I don't get how someone could not-- I mean, Iunderstand some people don't have the money to buy one. That's a good reason,but to find a way to use one. I've noticed one thing that's been really coolthat's happened in the last few years, and I see becoming more prevalent, andthat is these biohacking wellness centers where they have some infrared saunas,and cold plunge, and float tanks, and things like that. 

And I think that's sucha great model because it makes that available to people that don't have a fewgrand of disposable cash laying around to buy one and put it in their house, orthey don't have space. And also there's a communal aspect to that that I thinkis really beautiful, where you go to a place like that and it's very likelyyou're going to meet like-minded people that have similar interests, andvalues, and doing things in the world that inspire you.

So that's somethingI've seen that's really great. So I would encourage someone, if they can'tafford their own sauna, to find a place locally, if you can, that will foot thebill and buy a bunch of expensive infrared saunas that you can go use withoutthe responsibility. Let's break down the near, mid, and far infrared. And asmuch as I've talked about saunas over the years and used them, I'm not totallyclear on what each one does, and which one's visible, and which one's notvisible. 

I do know that when Igot my Sunlighten sauna, I really wanted whichever model was the hottest, thefastest. I think because I've been using them for so long, it's difficult forme to sweat unless it gets pretty damn hot. I think today it was up to 165 orsomething. I left it on for a little bit before I got in. But I noticed inthere the panels that are on the sides and on the back are hot, but you can'tsee any light. And there's two panels in front by the door that glow like a redfluorescent bulb or something. So not just in that sauna, but generally far,mid, and near. What's the deal with those?

Connie Zack: [00:41:12]So far, as we talked about, that's the longest. That is the coolest of thethree. Um, and the benefits of far, specifically, which we can talk about isthat's the wavelength that increases your core temperature, which provides acascade of events to help the body be healthier. And then it also helps withyour cardiovascular system. We did a study back in 2005 with University ofMissouri, Kansas City, showing a statistically significant change in bloodpressure just after using our sauna, which is amazing because I came frompharma, and it was really hard to do that without messing up the body.

Luke Storey: [00:41:59]Lowering blood pressure?

Connie Zack: [00:42:01]Yes. Lowering blood pressure. Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:42:02]Cool.

Connie Zack: [00:42:03]So there's cardiovascular benefits, detox benefits, as we talked about, whichcome from increasing the core temperature, weight loss, skin, inflammation.Those are the top benefits with far. I mean, there's more.

Luke Storey: [00:42:18]And does the far-infrared penetrate deepest into the tissue?

Connie Zack: [00:42:22]So far, no. So far is absorbed into the water molecules in your body.

Luke Storey: [00:42:30]Okay.

Connie Zack: [00:42:31]So it, literally, which is a, I mean, that can be another-- there's that wholemechanism of action and what happens with all of that as far as increasingenergy and changing your water, I mean, that's another show, but that's reallycool. So that's how it works on the far, which is why it's so important to, andI know you like it hot, but ideally if you can, a couple of times a week, getin when it's a cooler, just turn it on and get in, because right when it turnson is when the wavelength is the longest.

Luke Storey: [00:43:10]Oh, interesting.

Connie Zack: [00:43:10]So you get the easiest absorption. So it's extremely efficient at that way. Ifyou like the hot, I get it 100%, and I want you to do-- it's all good. There'sno wrong way. But for efficiency, for optimal use, getting in right when it'sthe coolest, and then letting the energy get into your body as quick aspossible, and then enjoy the rest of it.

Luke Storey: [00:43:36]I'm glad you mentioned that because I think I've been under the falseassumption that if it doesn't feel super hot and I'm not sweating within fiveminutes that it's not working. Yeah.

Connie Zack: [00:43:46]It's a lot of people. And this is-- I have to credit Dr. Hamblin, he's ourmedical director who is also the worldwide expert on infrared, all thingsinfrared, and has been forever. And I feel so honored when I say his name tosay he works with us as our medical advisor because he's always been-- from thefar, I've always like, God, that man is so bright, and he's so intelligent.Wow. Wouldn't it be great to work with him someday? And so now we do, which isawesome. 

And so whenever we havequestions or something that doesn't make sense, then we call him and say, okay,break this down, explain, etc. And so he's the one that says to me, he said,Connie, tell people to get in when they turn it on. He's like, because that isthe ideal. And so I'm spreading his words of advice, his words of wisdom.

Luke Storey: [00:44:41]Good to know. And that's also handy when, like in my case, I don't necessarilyhave time to preheat the sauna or I don't have time to sit in there for 20, or30, or 60 minutes. I have 15 minutes, and I'll be like, I wish I could take asauna, but I don't have an hour or whatever. So it's good to know that onecould go in there for 10 minutes, even though you might not be pouring sweat,and still get the far-infrared benefit.

Connie Zack: [00:45:05]Yeah, and I have started doing that. So I'm so glad you brought that up. And Ihave-- Aaron compliments me all the time. He's like, God, that's so awesomethat you just did 10, 15 minutes. Because don't need to warm it up. And it's awhole mindset we were talking about earlier. I've changed my mindset, and I'vedone it with a lot of things, not just sauna, and it's really been a major gamechanger in my life, is not limiting myself something before I even start.

And so sometimes youjust say, well, I don't have enough time to do this. I'm not going to do it.And it could be exercise. It could be meditation. It could be breathwork. Itcould be sauna. It could be studying. There's so many things that could be, andit's better, I've found, to do 15 minutes of something that is going to improveyour quality of life than not do it at all. Because then you start to get--it's not part of your lifestyle. It's that whole pattern.

Luke Storey: [00:46:03]Totally. That's me with exercise. I'd be like, well, I'm not going to go workout for 10 minutes. What's the point? I'll skip it. It's a really easy way toexcuse not doing it. But even getting your blood flowing for 10 or 15 minutes,doing whatever aerobic exercise or lifting weights for a few minutes is stillgood for you, even if it's not the full-blown-out HIT training orsomething. 

Connie Zack: [00:46:27]And you'll find too that it helps with your mental shift, that mindset of youstart to think if you're lifting or if you do 10 to 15 minutes, when I do it, Igo in there, and, oh my gosh, my brain it just explodes with ideas, orcreativity, or I'll put one intention out there I really want to have moreclarity on this. And, man, it's just like, oh my gosh, that was the best 10minutes of my day was in the sauna. So got a little bit off track. But so we'retalking about-- I want to answer your question. So I don't want to forget thequestion. 

So then there's mid,which is in the middle, and that is a shorter wavelength because it's hotter.And that's not absorbed as deep into the body because it's shorter, and itreally focuses on the joints and the tissues, and it's really great, what I callmid. It's claim to fame is helping with muscle recovery, and it's why a lot ofathletes have started to use the Impulse or Amplify, which is the one you havebecause it has all three in the front, because it really helps recoverfaster. 

And then near is theshortest. It's totally different. I mean, it's a complete-- because in the nearpart of the spectrum, there's invisible light, and then there's where it startsto move into the colored light, which is different than-- this really can beconfusing, so I apologize if I confuse anybody, but it's important. The coloredpart of the near-infrared spectrum is different from colored lights inside asauna that are up above. 

So the bulbs, where youjust change, you can have orange. You can have green. You can have all sorts ofdifferent colors. It's formally called chromotherapy. It's different than theLEDs of red light is the closest to invisible, and then it's blue, and then itfalls off. So let's talk about that for a second because it's so cool. It'ssuch a cool wavelength. I love it so much. I call it the vanity wavelengthmyself. 

In order to administerthe right frequency and the right quantity, you have to convert it to LEDs. Sothat's why you typically don't see-- there is some in your, but it's in thefront, because it's really hot to the touch, because, I mean, it's just so hot.So it was like far-infrared is the coolest, then there's mid, and then there'snear, which is the hottest. But it is so hot that you can't use a whole-- therewould be never such a thing as a near-infrared heated sauna. It's impossible.It couldn't exist.

Luke Storey: [00:49:29]You would melt.

Connie Zack: [00:49:30]Yeah. So you convert it to-- so we use near-infrared invisible LEDs to deliveran Impulse, to deliver the near-infrared. And then in some of our other saunas,we have full spectrum that have all three. Then we use a different type of bulbto deliver the near-infrared. So that is a summary. And the near-infrared isreally great for anti-aging. It's so much science on wound healing, and it'salso great for pain relief. 

There's some greatstudies on depression now, which is a subject I'm really passionate about, justbecause I feel that people-- since COVID, I don't know, I just feel like therewas a shift in the world with the mind and people going down rabbit holes. Andso I want to lift them up and educate them on ways to help the brain. And near-infraredis one of those light waves that can help the brain. And there's a lot of otherbenefits of it as well. But it's totally separate, and it works differentlythan all the other wavelengths.

Luke Storey: [00:50:38]And which models of Sunlighten have all three? Do some just focus on one or twoof the spectrums?

Connie Zack: [00:50:46]So our original, which is called the Signature, that was our original sauna.That was on Oprah. That was the far infrared only. And that's great. If you'relooking to detox, and that's your main thing, you don't have to get the othertwo. And I always say this to people. They're like, well, I want the best. Wetalked about this. I want the best. It depends on what is the best for you.What are you-- I'm really passionate about the Solo, which is our light onmodel. We have both. 

We have Impulse, and wehave the Solo, and that is a portable unit. You lie down. It only has thefar-infrared. I hate saying that only, but it has one wavelength because itsounds like it's less than the others. And it's not. It's extremely effectiveand extremely efficient for increasing your core temperature for detoxing thebody. That's the sauna that we did the UMKC study with. I mean, there's been somuch data about that. There's depression. 

There's so much dataabout that sauna. So that's really great for far-infrared. So Solo andSignature have far-infrared. Amplify has far-infrared behind you and fullspectrum meaning the entire spectrum of infrared, near, mid, and far in frontof you. And then Impulse has them all separately.

Luke Storey: [00:52:08]Okay. And I have the Amplify.

Connie Zack: [00:52:11]Correct.

Luke Storey: [00:52:11]Yeah. Okay.

Connie Zack: [00:52:12]Correct. Amplify will get the hottest because you have a lot of the mid,essentially, with a touch of the near because you can't have too much of it inthe ones that are in front of you. So you're going to get hotter faster in theAmplify, for sure.

Luke Storey: [00:52:30]Okay, cool. I definitely got very hot today. Thankfully, I had the ice bathsafterward, and then I was ready to record and not be pouring in sweat.

Connie Zack: [00:52:38]That's awesome.

Luke Storey: [00:52:40]Yeah, it's pretty awesome. That's my favorite combo. I mean, I can't think ofanything that improves my mood better than that. And you mentioned depression,and I've heard murmurs of this type of sauna therapy helping to produce morehappy neurotransmitters, dopamine, serotonin, etc. 

Are you aware of anyresearch that supports that, other than just my anecdotal experience of like,wow, I have much less anxiety, and I don't really suffer from depression, but Icould if I paid attention to what's going on in the world. But it's definitelya mood elevator for me, and I don't think it's all psychosomatic that, well, Ibelieve a sauna makes me have a good mood. I think something is definitelyhappening there.

Connie Zack: [00:53:23]Yes, to all of the above. There is lots of science supporting the change in theelevation of mood with infrared sauna, with far-infrared, and withnear-infrared, which I can talk about the different studies in a second. Also alot of times mood comes from energy, and we know for sure that it changes yourenergy levels because you're increasing your ATP, and we don't have to go intoall the scientific stuff, but that's one of my favorite benefits because itbrings me back to the basement, because when we first started, it was such ashocker to me that after 30 minutes in my sauna, I would actually have moreenergy.

Because growing up, theonly sauna I knew about was a sauna in the gym where it was hot. And when I wasin there, I would be zapped afterwards. I would feel drained. I'd be like-- andafter Sunlighten, it just felt, I mean, still today, I have so much moreenergy. So there is a scientific-- it's not just psychosomatic the way itworks. So let's talk about depression for a second. Some of the new science,because there's so much science.

Luke Storey: [00:54:39]But we love the science here too.

Connie Zack: [00:54:41]You do?

Luke Storey: [00:54:41]Yeah. Sometimes you're like, oh, we don't have to get into the deep science.There's going to be a--

Connie Zack: [00:54:44]Well, there's just so much.

Luke Storey: [00:54:45]There'll be a fraction of the audience that's like, I don't want to hearanecdotal. I want the science.

Connie Zack: [00:54:51]Okay, so here's some science on, and this is fascinating, on depression and farinfrared specifically. So Dr. Raison, I don't know if you know who he is, he'sanother just, wicked bright physician that I have so much respect for, who isall things heat. He studies a lot of heat. And he did a study on this $50,000piece of equipment. And essentially, it was whole-body hyperthermia, and withpeople who had major symptoms of depression. I think MDD is the technical term,major depression disorder, maybe is the name. 

And the conclusion is--so the goal was, I'm going to put these people in this machine that is going toheat them up. The goal was to raise their core temperature and see whathappens. And what he found is that they were able to raise their coretemperature around three degrees, and it took a long time. That's a separatepart of another study. So that's important to remember. And one session, itchanged their depression. 

It decreased theirdepression for up to six weeks. I mean, and these are people that had majorsymptoms. And what I think is so fascinating is it's one session. So it stillblows my mind. And so there's another doctor, who Dr. Mason is her mentor, heridol. And so she loved that data so much that she started a feasibility studyout in California to say, okay, he did this study with a $50,000 piece ofequipment.

That's great that weknow that keeping somebody's core temperature helped depression. So that's theconclusion. And we know three degrees-ish is the benchmark. People can go toGermany to do a $50,000-- so she did a feasibility study on a product like theSolo, which is an infrared sauna dome where you're lying in. And she did 110minutes, that she found-- the average was 82 minutes. She was able to just-- 25people, all 25, which is so rare that you have studies where it's 100%, all 25increased their core temperature during the session. 

So then she wanted tomeasure, okay, did they have any adverse events? Is it something that they cancontinue to do? No adverse events. And then she also measured their mood. Sonow we're going back to another study that specifically talked about mood, preand post. Again, one session. And both factors, a negative mood, and then therewas another mood benchmark, and both of them noticed a significant decrease. Sothat's super exciting because we did a study, back in the basement, with theSunlighten Solo on core temperature, and showed a significant increase of up tothree degrees with our product. 

And so we know for surethat we can do that in 30 minutes. It's okay if you want to go slower, that'sokay too. You don't have to -- it's not like, rush to get there. You can turnit down, and you can go slower. The important part is not the time to raiseyour core temperature. The point is that you do it. And what happens is whatthey're thinking is as far as the mechanism of action, as far as why is thiscausing relief? Is that people who have depression symptoms who consistentlyexperience it have a difficulty thermoregulating their body. 

So at night, mostpeople, their body starts with the circadian rhythm and they go to bed liketheir body starts to cool itself, just naturally cool down. And then when theywake up, they body starts to raise up a little bit. That process of justnatural, it helps to have the brain happier. And when that's blocked, thenthere's no regulation, and the brain signals, I'm not happy, and this sucks.

So infrared,far-infrared specifically, when you increase the core temperature safely andnaturally, in a comfortable way, so it feels like your body-- so it's notshocking thing, it elevates the-- I call it the switch, the switch in the bodyin the brain that says, I'm supposed to cool myself down, it goes off. So itstarts to regulate the body again. So when the temperature goes up, then thebody starts to cool itself down. And now, they can do that on their own, whichis, I think, why it lasted for six weeks, because we just activated. 

It's like we talked atthe beginning where your body is a vessel that really is built toself-regulate, and to heal itself, and to be healthy if we just provide theright nutrition, and mindset, and all of that. Same thing. If you're stuck, wehave technology and resources that are easy and accessible, which is what Dr.Mason-- she was all about accessibility is why she did this feasiblestudy. 

It's like, people needto be able to know that they can do this in the comfort of their own home or goto a business that has it if they can't have it in their own home and do it,and get yourself back on the path to a healthy brain, and a happy brain. 

Luke Storey: [01:01:09]That's awesome. As you're describing that process of training the body to coolitself down, I think about what a great anti-anxiety and antidepressant justgoing in the sun for a few minutes is. Just getting as much of your naked bodyas you can in the sun safely, of course, without burning, I mean, that is sucha mood booster. And I bet something similar is happening because you're gettingsome of that infrared spectrum in sun. 

The benefit of a saunais that you have no risk, as you said earlier, of the degradation of yourtissue from the UV light exposure, if you have too much of that UVA sitting outin the sun, especially if you're a fair-skinned person, you could get fried,and then now you've got inflammation, and all kinds of other problems.

But it goes back tonature. It's like, nature is the ultimate antidepressant. But we might livesomewhere where we don't have sun. We might have a complexion that doesn'ttolerate sun, and maybe we don't want to age prematurely from getting too muchsun. So the sauna is actually just taking the antidepressant, anti-anxietymedicine of nature and putting it in your house.

Connie Zack: [01:02:20]Right. Well, that's exactly the reason we named our company the way we namedour company.

Luke Storey: [01:02:23]Oh, I didn't even think about that.

Connie Zack: [01:02:24]Right. Sunlighten, is because we're harnessing the benefit of the Sun, but onlyusing the healing parts of the wavelength that you can do in the comfort ofyour own home. So we're bringing the Sun inside.

Luke Storey: [01:02:39]I didn't even think about that. Sunlighten. And you're also lightening yourmood.

Connie Zack: [01:02:41]Yes.

Luke Storey: [01:02:42]If I ever feel heavy, that'd be a good way to describe it, just overwhelmed,let's say, and stressed out, I mean, it's night and day after doing a saunasession. It's just like problems seem smaller. It's weird, but it's true. Itworks. I love when there's valid science and studies to back up what I thinkI'm experiencing because I also don't want to trick myself. I mean, it's fineif I do. Placebo is awesome. If it works, who cares. I'll take a sugar pill andcure my diabetes any day. But I don't have diabetes. I'm just saying. 
But it's also cool. It also reinforces the placebo. If you feel you're gettingbenefit from something, and then you can see there's been some valid studiesdone on it, I think the buy-in actually improves the benefits because in yourmind, you know that there's proof that it's working. And so that reinforcesyour subjective proof of like, yeah, I really think I feel better when I do X,Y, and Z. And here's something on PubMed that says, yes, you do. It'svalidated. I think there's a momentum to that that also helps withcompliance. 

It's like, I knowsomething feels good for me. I know there's some research to support that, andI don't really feel I have time or the discipline to go take a sauna or workout or whatever. But I have that much more evidence. There's two categories ofevidence backing me going, Luke, you got 15 minutes, just do it. And then youstart to habituate it. And like we were talking about earlier, it becomes anintegral part of your lifestyle where it's not a burden to take the time andeffort to do whatever the thing is. It's just what you do on a regular basis,like brushing your teeth. No one complains about having to brush their teethevery morning. 

I mean, that's shorterthan a sauna session, to be fair, but it's just part of life. And that's onething I really love on this show, is sharing tools like infrared sauna therapy,for example, with people, and they start to experiment with it and find thebenefit. And then it's just a non-negotiable part of their lifestyle program.That's just what I do. It's super cool. I was just perusing your website doingsome research, you have patents on various wavelengths of light while we'retalking about wavelengths. What's up with that?

Connie Zack: [01:04:56]Yeah. We have a lot of patents that we, fortunately, were bright enough, Idon't know how, we were bright enough to do that back in when we started, butI'm so glad we did, patented-- one of the things we studied back at thebeginning was really trying to understand this whole concept of far-infraredand how do you deliver the highest amount? Because it goes back to is that whatyou were talking about. You feel something, but then you don't have thescience. So I really wanted, and Aaron really wanted the science to supporteverything that we were doing.

And you would feeldifferent if I would take an infrared sauna A and I would take, for example,the Solo. That's where everything started. Sauna B, they're both infrared. Andwe actually did a study with, I forgot about that, a double-blindplacebo-controlled study with an infrared that was looked exactly like theSolo, but the Solo had Sunlighten's patented heaters, which is what I'm gettingto, in that with Sunlighten sauna, the experience was very different. Theresults were very different. 

It really went back tothis whole energy thing. There was mental clarity, there was other things. Butif I had to go back to one or two of the consistent things that were differentthan any other experience or anything else when we started to master thedelivery of the wavelength, it was, how do I feel afterwards? Really divinginto, I feel-- and it's also lighter. I feel lighter. I feel I have moreenergy. I have more mental clarity. And that came from figuring out how todevelop materials that compose our heaters that would make the wavelength aslong as possible.

Luke Storey: [01:07:06]Oh, cool.

Connie Zack: [01:07:07]So that's what we patented. We patented our chemistry and our composition sonobody else can deliver. We deliver, at the time we patented, a 95. We actuallyhad now have changed it to 99. So we have the highest amount possible in thefar infrared sauna category, and we have a patent on it. The other thing wehave a patent that's-- we have a lot of patents, but what people would careabout would be we have the patent on delivering two or more separatewavelengths in the same place.

Luke Storey: [01:07:43]Oh, wow.

Connie Zack: [01:07:43]So when we were developing Impulse 13 years ago, when we started working with alot of researchers, we worked with Dr. Whelan in Michigan, and then some peopleat MIT, and they were educating us, they're the ones that brought to us thevalue of mid-infrared, and near-infrared, and how if you work together andbring all these wavelengths together, you can really, exponentially-- it's not1 plus 1 plus 1, and it's 10 times the benefit. And so they helped point us inthe right direction, and we patented that, and then we have a patent onit. 

We have a lot ofdifferent ones, but those are some of the most fundamental ones that helpprotect the company. As well as what I really care about, back when we used toreally promote, I don't know if-- we don't promote our patents as much as weused to, but what I cared about when we used to really heavily promote them isthe peace of mind from the consumer.

Because there was somuch friction and so much noise back in the day, in the sauna category, it helpedto be able to say, you can look at this, here's some scientific, and legal, andall of that documentation that supports what we're telling you. So it's not ourword. You can look it up, and you can look up. Here's the patent number. Golook it up, and that gives them a little bit more control over their research.So that's, for me, one of the values of the patents. It's not to brag. It'sreally more just the peace of mind to the consumer.

Luke Storey: [01:09:23]Well, if you're spending a few grand on something, it's important to be able toverify that you're not wasting your money, aside from whatever competitivetactics of how you market things and say other things are not legitimate. IfI'm dropping a coin on something, I want to know that it's legit and worksbecause, I mean, let's face it, you can go to I think-- someone was telling meat Costco, they have an infrared sauna, and I'm like, well. 

If I would say it was abit less expensive than a Sunlighten or something, I mean, I would definitelybe doing some research on not only the efficacy of how they're making it, whichwe're going to get into, things like EMF and off-gassing of chemicals, andglues, and all kinds of negative side effects that many cheaper inferiorlyproduced saunas have. 

So I think that's areally important part. And maybe it's the cognitive benefits you and Aaron weregetting from all the sauna use that led to the inspiration to go, hey, we couldmake this better. And when we do, let's make sure that we can convey to thecustomer that it's better because of this, and we're the ones that did it.

Connie Zack: [01:10:29]Yeah, that's a great-- I love that thought process. Never thought about it thatway.

Luke Storey: [01:10:33]It's not impossible.

Connie Zack: [01:10:35]It's not impossible because inspiration had to come from somewhere. I mean,it's not like I woke up one day and I was like, oh my God, I have to be in thesauna business, or I have to do this, or I have to have my own-- I have to domanufacturing. So maybe it was all the mental clarity. And I mean, we did it. Imean, back then we were like-- now we have kids and it's not as regimented whenbefore kids where it's like it was regimented. We had our certain protocol wework out. And we stayed in there a lot longer because we had, I mean, our dayswere longer. So it's an interesting thought process.

Luke Storey: [01:11:21]Well, there also is something to be said for creative ideation when you'rerelaxed. And when you go in the sauna, I mean, it's just inherently scheduledas a time to relax. I'm not going in the sauna and doing anything. Maybe Imight do a little breathwork or meditate if I'm not too hot, but you're takingtime aside just for yourself. And I find that many of my best ideas in terms ofcreative ideas come during a sauna, or meditation, or something where I'm justdisconnecting from normal activity and giving my consciousness some space tobreathe, and just create that space for inspiring ideas to come through. 

I mean, I had ameditation. I was assisted by this device called the Rorschach, which it justputs you in a really deep theta state. It's very daydreamy and trippy. If Ilaid there for an hour and a half and I had something like 60 ideas fort-shirts, just slogans and memes and stuff, just started downloading into mybrain. And you're supposed to keep your eyes closed and an eye mask andrelax. 

And I'm like, I have towrite these down because when I get up, they'll be gone. There's no way I canremember 60 things that happened in an hour or something. So that was anotherreminder of if you are someone that seeks creative ideas and just space tovisualize, taking a sauna, meditating, where you just totally relaxed, andyou're just focused on the inward journey is really the sweet spot where someof those ideas come through.

Connie Zack: [01:12:55]And to that point, I would recommend, I've started doing this, is bringing inwhatever. I bring in a pad of paper because ideally, and I do, occasionallybring in my phone for other reasons. But I have started bringing in the pad ofpaper because my brain, exactly what you said, it just starts to come up with,I'm like, oh, that's the answer. That's what I was searching for. And I startto just write down, and I get so much done, and it is such a good use of mytime, not only physically for my body, but that mental offload onto a piece ofpaper is priceless.

Luke Storey: [01:13:37]Absolutely. I like the idea too, of bringing a notepad because if I rely on myphone to take notes, it's much more tempting to check my email, or refreshsocial media, or something. It's like, oh, I'm not supposed to be doing thatLike this morning, because I disabled the Bluetooth on my sauna, which isawesome that I have the ability to do that, by the way, it's a cool feature tohave, where you have speakers, and you can play some music in there. I justdon't typically listen to music. 

If I listen toanything, it's going to be a podcast. And so I wanted to listen to a podcast onwhich you were the guest, actually, in preparation for this interview, which Ialways do. And so that's what I listened to in the sauna today. So I don't missthe speakers. I had speakerphone, but I had to put my phone on airplane so thatI wasn't getting blasted with EMF when I'm trying to relax and also so Iwouldn't be tempted to actually use my phone for anything else. 

So I just listened tothe podcast, and it was great. But in terms of ideas, it's probably a goodpractice to just keep the phone out of the-- I mean, obviously, you could meltyour phone if you don't keep it on the floor. It was a hot tip for people thatI learned the hard way, but I like the notepad idea. That's a really good idea.

Connie Zack: [01:14:47]Yeah. And you can just leave it. I mean, I just leave it in there underneaththe bench. And that way it's in this-- you don't have to like, oh, I forgot it.Because if you forget it, you're not going to get out. And if you use it,great. And if you don't, it's fine too. But yeah, it's one of my favorite things.

Luke Storey: [01:15:02]A notepad. It'd be a cool idea to just a specific notepad in the sauna and justleave it in there so every time you go in there, you start to train yoursubconscious mind that now is the time to download ideas, and codes, and documentthem every time you're in there. It's a good place to journal. Okay. So there'sso many things I want to get to. And as you can tell, I'm rabbit hole guy. Iwant to know every single thing there is to know about everything, and I knowthat many people in the audience do too. 

So what about-- I guessI want to talk about some of the benefits. I mean, that's the thing. People arelike, yeah. Cool. It's good for you. It helps you feel good, but I know there'sa lot of documentation, and you've alluded to some of these things, but I thinkyou talked about blood pressure. What about cardiovascular health andcirculation? I feel that if I'm just feeling stagnant and I get in the sauna,it's like I just feel my heart start to pump. I feel the blood start to pump.And I think that has a lot to do with the mood elevation. It's just there'senergy moving in the body because of the heat.

Connie Zack: [01:16:08]So there is an abundance of science. And actually, this category as far ascardiovascular benefits, probably is the longest. There's data that dates back25, almost maybe even 30 years with infrared and the cardiovascular system,specifically relating to increased blood flow, decreasing the endotheliallining in the heart. So when you're looking at, and there's tons of data oncongestive heart failure and increasing the quality of life, decreasingmorbidity and mortality, I mean, really important things because the wavelengthis getting into, again, it goes back to, we said at the very beginning, gettingback into the body. 

So it's not in the air.You're healing yourself energetically. And when you're receiving thatwavelength, you're promoting oxygen flow. You're promoting an increased oxygenlevel, so that starts to stimulate blood flow. The plaque and a lot of thestuff that will block flow, it starts to dissipate and disappear so that thebody goes back to the normal state. I mean, our body is made to do that. And Imean, that is that data alone.

I remember researchingit back, so long ago with showing the markers such as triglycerides, andcholesterol, and increasing the good cholesterol, and decreasing the bad,that's been done with infrared. And so that's why a lot of times when you comeout and you feel, you look healthier, you're increasing circulation. Peoplethat suffer from Raynaud's and different types of circulatory conditions canstart to regulate their body by using that. 

So there's a lot. Imean, I could be here all day to go through all of the science on thecardiovascular system. And then that one study that we did ourselves, I mean,that is when you talk about validate, I mean, can you imagine Ms. Skeptichere-- I mean, I still think about the risk that we put ourselves into notknowing. We had no idea. I mean to do a double-blind, placebo-controlledrandomized trial in this space in 2005, it's so risky.

Luke Storey: [01:18:49]You have to pay for it whether you get the results you're looking for or not,right?

Connie Zack: [01:18:53]Well, yeah. And what happens if it was just like, oh, we suck? You know what Imean? There is that risk. Nobody had ever done a trial with an infrared saunaagainst an infrared sauna, which-- okay, I'll finish that thought. And then Iwant to go back to the Costco discussion because you said something I wanted torevisit. So doing a trial and then showing as an output, we also increase thequality of life scores. But then being able to say statistically--pharmacologically what people really care about, I know a lot of people todaydon't care about statistics and all that stuff, but they cared about if it'snot stat sig, then it doesn't mean anything. 

And being able to getthat p-value in the stat sig numbers that we lowered blood pressure with oursand the other one didn't, I mean still is such a great benefit because thatlowering of blood pressure helps with so many other things. It gives you theenergy. I mean, it's just so many-- it's a cascade of benefits that goes on andon and on. Back to the Costco before I forget. This is what I've learned. Anysauna can be deemed as an infrared sauna. So it can be a hot, traditional saunabecause all heat has infrared in it.

Luke Storey: [01:20:25]All right. Even a campfire has infrared heat.

Connie Zack: [01:20:29]Yeah. Right. Exactly. So when what I mean by saying that is for people that arelistening, because I think, every now and then I try, it's hard, take a stepback and like be a consumer. It's hard, and just look as somebody outsidelooking in. And whenever I do that, it can be confusing. I'm like, what? Idon't understand. What's the difference between Sunlighten infrared and some ofthe other infrared like Costco? 

If I could save money,why wouldn't I do that? I don't get it. That's what goes through my head. Andso for somebody like that, like me, and it's like, I don't understand. It'sinfrared. I'm going to get the blood pressure. I'm going to get all this.

The difference is anyheater that emits heat is infrared. What you want is back to that wholeabsorption we talked about in that visual I have in my head from listening toDr. Hamblin saying, Connie, get in when you turn it on, and receive-- becauseyou guys have mastered the efficiency, and the effectiveness, and the quantityof far-infrared, nobody can give more than you guys give. 

So take advantage ofthat, and let the wavelength get into your body as quickly as possible. That'sthe difference between a lot of infrared. They have less of the far infraredthat's going to get into the body. So if you want the biggest bang for yourbuck, you really want the product that's going to give as much as possible whenyou're in there. Does that make sense?

Luke Storey: [01:22:02]Yeah. For sure.

Connie Zack: [01:22:03]So it's hard for people to understand because the word is synonymous. But whenyou have-- the quantity, the amount of the wavelength, it matters. And thenwhen you get into the other wavelengths, it matters on the frequency. When youget into the nanometers, it matters. It's like, I always use the analogy ofwhen you're trying to boil water. There's a brand out there, I think, I haven'tlooked at it in a while, but I think the brand is called 212, I believe. It's agreat self-improvement brand that talks about powering yourself. 

And the reason they put212 is because-- I think it's 212-- because that's the degree that water startsto boil, and it's going after that extra one degree. So if you're trying toboil water and it's at 211 or 210, and you stop, you never get to that magicaltipping point, what you're trying to achieve. And that's energy. There's alwaysa tip. There's always a point where you convert. 

And that's what we haveworked on for all these years with infrared is mastering the quantity,mastering the amount, mastering the frequency of each wave. Not saying that thepeople slap a heater together, but it matters. It does matter, the materials,the emissivity, the amount, all of that matters in the experience that you'rereceiving, and ultimately, in the benefits that you receive.

Luke Storey: [01:23:35]Thank you for that. And that's one of the goals of this podcast, is todemystify these topics for people. It's educating consumers and people that areinterested in their well-being and helping them not to waste their time,energy, and money.

Connie Zack: [01:23:49]I know. My time is my number one thing. I say this to my kids all the time. I'mlike, you can find other ways to get money back, but you can't get your timeback. Time is the most valuable asset to me. And so I want to be as efficientas possible in the time that I have, and be present, and accounted for, andshow up. And it's just the way I like to live my life.

Luke Storey: [01:24:19]Right on, sister. We talked about mood. What about more serious cognitiveissues, Alzheimer's, dementia, things like that? Is there any research that hastaken place that supports saunas assisting with that?

Connie Zack: [01:24:32]Yes, there is with far and near, some of the most compelling. I call it new.It's not really new, but more recent research is on the near-infrared LEDs andusing them directly on the brain. And the research shows-- it's justfascinating. They've taken pictures of the brain and the difference in thelobes, and how the brain is working before and after the brain receiving thenear-infrared light. It changes. Essentially, it goes back to-- I always usethe word switch, unlock, because I feel like that's what we're doing indifferent ways with the body, different mechanisms, like with the heart.

We're unlocking allthat, getting everything moving with the thermo-regulator. Turning on theswitch that allows the body to regulate itself so that you can cool down. Youcan heat up. You can do a bath, and you can do it all. Your body will feel it,and then it'll adjust. Same thing with the brain. There's a lot of people thatthe brain, the way it's wired, certain parts of the brain are not active or notactively engaged. And so what are some ways that we can get them sparked andunlocked? And near-infrared definitely does that.

Luke Storey: [01:25:53]I think this would be great for politicians if that's the case. It seems likethere are many parts of their brains that don't work.

Connie Zack: [01:26:01]I going to pledge the fifth on that. You go ahead.

Luke Storey: [01:26:04]Couldn't resist.

Connie Zack: [01:26:06]Okay. It's your podcast.

Luke Storey: [01:26:08]Something that I've seen in the research around infrared saunas is issues withpostpartum. How does this assist women that have had babies and are strugglingwith the recovery from that process?

Connie Zack: [01:26:23]A lot of that goes back to the whole serotonin, and the brain, and a lot ofreadjusting the hormone levels because your hormones get so out of whack whenyou're pregnant. And it goes back to the whole regulation aspect. I also thinkthat now that I'm learning more about the cognitive benefits specifically, Ithink there is a connection there as well in both far and near in being able toelicit a happier feeling naturally. I mean, I feel happier. 

Thankfully, I did notsuffer or go through that whole postpartum, but I know from Dr. Mason's work,Dr. Raison's work with depression and the way the body is responding, that ifyou can find a way to thermoregulate, then the brain is able to switch. We canfind ways to control our brain. I know so many people just accept, oh, this iswhat I have. That's a problem too. You just say that. Cancel that thought.

Luke Storey: [01:27:42]Totally. Well, that's part of the error in the medical system too, is you get adiagnosis and it's like, this is your life now. And if you buy into that, andnot even just if you see a doctor, but just you read things online or there'sjust a prevalent belief system around a particular issue or ailment, thatthat's just the way it is now. And you go, oh, okay, well, that's what theprofessionals say. And then that gets lodged in your consciousness and keepsyou in that perpetual cycle of that issue.

Connie Zack: [01:28:10]Right. I know. We need to change that.

Luke Storey: [01:28:11]Damn straight. Well, we are. I was thinking about the postpartum thing, andthis is something I know very little about, but we have a lot of femalelisteners, so I get questions about this type of thing. I've also heard thatsauna therapy is beneficial to your hormones, and I haven't tested that myself,but I think just because of the obvious energy that's being produced that Ifeel good, and I think it could have something to do with not only theneurotransmitters, but the hormones. Is there any data on that that supportsthat idea?

Connie Zack: [01:28:45]You brought up such a hot topic, pardon the pun. I'm really super passionateabout this, but I'm at the beginning, in my opinion. Connie Zack, of course,it's not beginning because I'm critical myself, but I feel like I'm at thenascent stage of learning everything I need to learn about infrared andhormones, all that whole thing. It is a massive topic that I'm committed toenlightening people and sun-lightning people on because it's so important. Andwomen do think they're crazy, and they think that the psychosomatic-- I mean,it's a big deal.

What I do know for sureis that when women's hormones are changing, they're starting to add on stuff.They're starting to take things and putting those in their replacements.Hormone replacement therapy, whether it's bioidentical or whether it'ssynthetic, doesn't really matter for the sake of this discussion. And the issueis that they're not analyzing their bodily functions to know whether they are ableto excrete some of those naturally. So what I mean by that, let me say it adifferent way, because that came out way too-- I didn't like the way it cameout.

What I know for sure isthat Sunlighten is able to help people detox. So if you're a woman that's goingthrough hormone-- one of the most important things you can do proactively thathas nothing to do with hormone replacement therapy is to consistently detoxyour body because you're going through so much change and everything ischanging because it's shifting. And just by living, you're exposed to so manythings that maybe in the past you could naturally excrete through urine andthrough the different ways. 

But if you're notreally focusing on detoxing through sweat, I mean, your skin is your largestorgan, you should focus on doing it, and then get tested. Test your liverfunction. Test your kidneys, test all of that because if you're starting totake other things that you've never taken before and your body can't excreteelements inside your body, then you're only going to be on overload, and bereally messed up, which is not the goal of a woman that's going through lots ofhormone changes. 

So I promise whoever'slistening, I will commit to this because somebody needs-- I've said this to myteam, some company, somebody needs to commit to this space and to enlighteningpeople, and to bring some solutions and some resources to help women feel moreeducated and informed so they can make their own decisions on what's best forthem. And I want to help be part of that for women.

Luke Storey: [01:32:02]I agree.

Connie Zack: [01:32:02]There's just so much information. It's so confusing.

Luke Storey: [01:32:06]You already know a lot. You're delivering a lot of value here. One thing aboutthe hormones that I can't scientifically indicate or describe, but I do knowsubjectively that sun exposure definitely ramps up my hormones as a male. I'massuming there's benefits for women too, and I don't think it's the UV lightthat's doing it. It's the infrared light and the sun. And I've observed this,and there could be two reasons for it. And that is when we go on vacation,typically, unless we're really into skiing or something, we're going somewherewhere there's an abundance of water and sunshine. That's where we like to goand relax.

And I'm sure I'm notthe only one. I'm going to get a little personal here, but I would say thatthis is a common occurrence, that your sex drive goes way up when you're onvacation. One reason is you're not stressed anymore because you've let go ofyour responsibilities for the time being. But being in the sun makes peoplehorny, period. And so there has to be something to the hormonal effect ofsunlight, probably the infrared spectrum of sunlight. And so it seems to meintuitively, that you'd be getting some hormonal benefit from any exposure toinfrared light, including being in a sauna. So I think that's where thatquestion came from. It's just a gut feeling.

Connie Zack: [01:33:29]Yeah. No. And there's some-- 

Luke Storey: [01:33:30]Your vitality ramps up when you're in that light.

Connie Zack: [01:33:33]So there's science, and this-- gosh, you're bringing up some memories fromyears and years ago when-- I don't remember the studies that I found, but essentially,the summary is to validate your experience specifically for men. So infraredhelps to increase your nitric oxide levels, which helps to increase your flowto some really important parts of your body.

Luke Storey: [01:34:02]Oh, the natural viagra. That's a good point.

Connie Zack: [01:34:07]So everything, it's just a little bit more excited and everything is flowingbetter. And that's a fact. We used to talk about this all the time years andyears ago. It's funny because there was so much science with infrared andnitric oxide. But also with with women, there's a lot of autoimmune-- sothere's a lot of data supporting thyroid function, increasing the thyroidfunction in a woman. And there's a lot of doctors that have done extensiveresearch in autoimmune disorders and infrared, specifically.

And that really helpsyou know get-- if the thyroid is off, then your estrogens, then everything, allthe other hormones because the thyroid is the conductor in your body. So if youcan get that back functioning correctly, then you can have your female hormonesthat get you as excited as your nitric oxide does. And so if that happens toboth of you when you're in the sun, then procreation may happen.

Luke Storey: [01:35:16]There it is. And you also raise another contributing factor there in thetoxicity in the body and specifically endocrine disruptors. And so I want tocover two broad topics. And I can't believe it took me this long to get todetoxing because to me, that's the holy grail of sauna therapy is the way thatit helps you detox. And I also want to talk about EMFs in the sauna industrybecause that's a huge concern of mine and many people's. 

Before we do, however,I want to let people know you guys have given a generous discount for people thatare interested in getting their own Sunlighten. So if you guys go tolukestorey.com/sunlighten and use the code LUKESTOREY, you can get up to 600bucks off. lukestorey.com/sunlighten. So thank you for that. I love when guestsgive the audience a hook up. And if you come talk about your product, you'relike, cool, go pay retail, I don't know, it just doesn't land as well. So thankyou for that.

Connie Zack: [01:36:13]Of course.

Luke Storey: [01:36:13]But I do want to get into the detox process and just share a quick story. Yearsago, when I had my old super high EMF Korean infrared sauna that my dad gaveme, God bless, and even though it was really high EMF, I think that thebenefits still outweighed the EMF exposure. But I use it a lot, and I had beenusing it for some time, and then I got a very thorough heavy metal test wherewe did blood, urine, and hair tests. And I had really high lead, and fairlyhigh mercury, and cadmium, and some other things. But the lead was reallyproblematic. 

And so I was like, Igot to get rid of this, and God knows what it was before I started using thesauna, it was probably much worse. I'm sure I knocked it back a bit, but it wasso high, and someone turned me on to this book called Clear Body Clear Mind byL. Ron Hubbard of Scientology Fame. Of course, I was a bit off put by thatbecause it just seems like a, to me, low vibration religion quotes, what didn'tappeal to me. 

But anyway, there wasenough people saying, oh man, I tested before and after I did this protocol.And what it entailed was a 30-day program wherein you take increasing doses ofniacin before your sauna, then you exercise, then you go in the sauna for anhour. And it was much faster with infrared saunas than when he instituted thisprotocol for the drug addicts that would come to Scientology. There was a namefor the particular program. Narconon or something.

Connie Zack: [01:37:45]Yeah. We worked with Narconon back in the basement.

Luke Storey: [01:37:47]But back in the day-- 

Connie Zack: [01:37:49]Because of him.

Luke Storey: [01:37:49]Oh, okay, cool. So you know about this. I thought I was the only weirdo thatdid this. But back in the day, they would put people in a traditional sauna forfive or six hours. And so I did the 30 days, and I got up to an insane, I don'tremember how many milligrams, but an insane amount of niacin that I couldtolerate without the flush, and did the whole thing. Took all thesereplenishing supplements because the niacin, of course, draws the toxins out ofyour fat, but also all of your fat-soluble nutrients and stuff. 

So I took all thesupplements, took the niacin, retested, and all my metals went down, I don'tknow what percentage, but 70, 80%. A dramatic decrease. And I was like, yes.Thank you. L Ron Hubbard. You nailed that one. I don't know if he invented it,but he popularized it. So that was my introduction to the world of specificallyheavy metal detox using saunas. So you could speak to that particular protocol,and your thoughts on it, if you wish, or just the general benefit of gettingthese toxins out of our body in a way that would be much slower, if notimpossible, to do just by going for a run every day or finding other ways tosweat things out of you.

Connie Zack: [01:39:01]So it reminds me of a study when you say that that was done by Dr. Genuis. He'sin Canada, there's a great story there. He started researching and becomingjust passionate about understanding toxins and removal because he was an ob-gynand he wanted to create an environment where when women were decided theywanted to have a child, their body was as healthy as possible. So I think hisintention was just beautiful. 

But he did this studycalled the BUS. I always get it wrong. BUS. Blood, urine, and sweat study, andessentially measured heavy metals. He also did some narcotics and stuff. Butthe important part of this is the heavy metals, cadmium, lead, mercury, andmeasured people's blood, urine, and sweat. What's fascinating is people that ontheir blood and urine, specifically [Inaudible] mercury, because I just thinkthis blows my mind, when they measured it, they had no mercury in their bloodor urine, but 100% of them had mercury in their sweat.

Luke Storey: [01:40:20]Oh, interesting.

Connie Zack: [01:40:21]Isn't that fascinating? So if you're just going by the blood and urine, you'renot really analyzing the full thing. I can't even imagine being one of thosepeople that thought you were in the clear, but yet you still didn't feel greatbecause your body definitely is with mercury. I mean, I'm a little taintedbecause my brother. I mean, I can't imagine. I mean, you just know that if youdon't feel well, there's something that's clogging. 

So the important partof that is the value of finding ways to sweat at the deepest level, it'sdifferent because they use an infrared sauna. So it's different from-- and Ilove to run. A big advocate. Ran this morning here in Austin. Didn't set out todo it, but I just couldn't stand it because it was so beautiful here, and itwas by a lake. I'm like, oh.

Luke Storey: [01:41:17]Oh, did you run on the path down by the lake, downtown?

Connie Zack: [01:41:20]The trail. Yes.

Luke Storey: [01:41:20]Yeah. It's really nice.

Connie Zack: [01:41:21]It's beautiful. The energy is amazing.

Luke Storey: [01:41:23]And I'll tell you, insider secret here. People that live here call that a lake,but I think we can agree that it's a river. If you look at it, it's like,that's not a lake.

Connie Zack: [01:41:32]Yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:41:32]What lake snakes narrowly down? I don't know. But anyway, they call it LadyBird Lake, I think is what it's called. But it's beautiful this time of year.

Connie Zack: [01:41:39]It was beautiful. Yeah. So anyway, great run. But my sweat from that isdifferent from my sweat inside my Sunlighten sauna because the wavelength isgoing deeper. I am finding ways to get the water molecules back to the waterchanged. And a lot of times the mercury and toxins, that's where they'restored. And so it's not going to be released through a sweat on a run or asweat lifting. It's just not. And the really-- if there is only one thing thatpeople listen to, my important message would be the value of detoxing the bodysafely, naturally, without side effects through sweat. 

There's very few thingsthat are really more important in maintaining or achieving a healthy lifestylebecause you get so much residual, other benefits from that. You feel lighter,physically, because you're getting rid of stuff, mentally, you're improving theblood flow, and increasing circulation, and getting the brain receptors to beactive again. Your head's sweating. I mean, it's just such a value to it,especially getting back to the women with the hormones. If you do nothing else,get your functions checked to see, even if everything's perfect, you want tokeep it that way and start detoxing with sweat.

Luke Storey: [01:43:22]If there was only one benefit to infrared sauna therapy and it was the profounddetox that you're able to achieve, that alone would be enough reason for me todo it. Because no matter how clean of a lifestyle you live, I mean, there'sstuff in the sky that's like aluminum they're spraying. I mean, it's just like,I live a really clean life, and I'm sure if I went and got everything testedright now, you would find a bunch of toxicity. And I eat organic, I do all thethings. And it's just like it's the modern world. So if saunas only providedthat, it would be a reason for me to do it, and I would still do it. 

So it's like, thedownstream benefits of mood, and weight loss, and burning calories, and all theother rad stuff is just like, oh, that's nice, but I just want the detox, whichis why I got into it in the first place. And then I started to find like, God,I'm in a really good mood today. I started to notice the other benefits as ajust side effect of me really wanting to get these metals out of my body. Butthe endocrine disruptors, the metals and other plastics, and these things inyour body, and jacking up your hormones is just a huge issue.

And one thing I learnedabout different types of sweating, because you can go running in August here inTexas, and by the time you get to the bottom of the driveway, you are drenchedin sweat. But if you're in a sympathetic nervous system state while you'resweating, your body doesn't trigger the detox pathways. And I think that's partof the secret sauce of infrared sauna detox is that it makes you go intoparasympathetic, which was why it feels so relaxing and great, even unlike, asyou said, a traditional sauna where it's stressful to be in heated air that's220 degrees or whatever, even though I like that type of sauna too, onoccasion. 

But it does make you abit more fatigued. But I think that's really the key difference. Your body getstotally relaxed, de-stressed, and so it goes, oh, what are we going to do withthis energy? Well, we're going to detox. And then you start to pour all thatstuff out of your sweat. I think that's a really important part of it forpeople to understand too, that think like, well, I'm already sweating. Bigdeal. It's a different kind of sweat when you exercise because your body is ina different nervous system response.

Connie Zack: [01:45:32]I totally agree.

Luke Storey: [01:45:33]Yeah, that's me putting on my little brainiac to add to the conversation.

Connie Zack: [01:45:37]I know. It's true. Your emotions too. I was at a recent wellness conference,and the talk was about hormones and how there's so many negative emotionsconnected with hormone change. And an issue that's happening is those emotions,when you have fear or hate, these negative emotions, they are received into thebody. They get stored into the body.

Luke Storey: [01:46:10]Yeah. Good point.

Connie Zack: [01:46:12]And so if you're not finding ways to remove them and get them out of theorgans, they get stored in your gut and your organs and, and then they'retrapped, and that's not good. So that's another reason to detox.

Luke Storey: [01:46:32]What do you think about taking binders? Because I think that the scientologyprotocol, if I recall, this is many, many, maybe 15 years ago when I did thatprotocol. But I think you also took some activated charcoal, or calciumbentonite clay, or something like that, I don't always remember, but sometimeswhen I'm going to do a long sauna session, I will take a bunch of electrolytesand great salt water or whatever. And then I'll also take some binders becauseI know that I'm releasing all those toxins potentially into my bloodstream. Doyou think that's a good practice to do every time you take a sauna or just hereand there? What can you say about taking binders?

Connie Zack: [01:47:12]There's a ton of great research and great wellness experts that definitelyrecommend different types of binders while sauning, and most of them, I wouldsay, do recommend doing it consistently. I personally haven't researched theconnection between-- it makes logical sense to me. I haven't researched theconnection between the two. I have not looked at the frequency of that, and ifit makes a huge difference. 

Intuitively, it makessense if you're doing something where you would detox and you're also takingsomething that's going to help expedite that process, why wouldn't you do it?When we talk about binders and start to get into charcoal, and algae, and allthe different-- spirulina, all the different ways to-- I leave that to thosepeople who are experts in that area.

Luke Storey: [01:48:17]I respect that.

Connie Zack: [01:48:18]Because it's not my thing except for just the intuitive piece. And I'm ahydrate-- for me personally, if we want to just go on a personal level, I am sosimple. I could not be a more simple sauna user. I mean, I have my-- normally,I look down at Sunlighten when I'm doing these, I have my hot water with lemonthat's right with me. And my thing is I hydrate and hydrate. I've thought aboutadding-- I love hearing you talk about the salt water. I'm starting to hearthat more and more. So thought about that. Haven't done it yet. 

But I love the benefitsof, I call heat stacking, habit stacking, sweat stacking, going back to theefficiency and using my time as wisely as possible. If I can do multiple thingsto benefit my body at the same time, which is another great benefit of usingyour Sunlighten sauna, is you can do other things while you're in there, so youcan kind of knock out a couple of things. So if taking a binder or if-- proteinis a big thing right now-- if you're doing-- you can do it all at the sametime.

Luke Storey: [01:49:36]Yeah. My intuition on the binders, and I've not habituated myself to do this,but it seems like it's probably a good idea because you're liberating thesetoxins from your fat cells. And I'm sure some of it's going potentially throughyour eliminatory organs into your GI tract, which is where that charcoal orwhatever binder is going to suck it up, and maybe even into your bloodstream.So I'm thinking like, yeah, maybe do that a bit more frequently. 

And with the takingelectrolytes or salt water, that too, I don't have science or data on per se,but intuitively, I feel like when you're sweating a lot and your sweat's salty,that you're also losing a lot of hydration and minerals in a sauna. So that'ssomething I have gotten better at remembering to do, is just bring a mason jarof even lemon water or something like that in there just to make sure I'mhydrating, because there have definitely been counts less times where I'vetaken a long sauna, sweat a bunch and then not drink any water at all. Justprobably not the greatest idea.

I want to talk aboutEMF because this is a huge topic of this podcast and something that I'm reallypassionate about educating people because I think that so many of us get caughtup on diet, fads, and crazes, carnivore, vegan, paleo, or whatever, and we'resleeping with a Wi-Fi router next to our head. And it makes me crazy because Iknow the harm. I've interviewed enough physicists and scientists about the harmthat EMF causes. 
And so when it comes to products that are designed to support your health, andthe designers of those products are not mindful of the EMF exposure caused bythem, because most of these great biohacking technologies plug into the wall.They have electricity, and thus produce EMF. And when I started researching youguys because I wanted to update my sauna game, and especially find one that Icould fit in with my wife, and one that got hot enough, and one I could stretchout my legs in, which this one provides all of that, so thank you, I was like,first thing, I need to know about the EMF. Did you test for it? 

Because you got radiofrequencies from Bluetooth and Wi-Fi. You got magnetic fields that can come offof things that heat up. You've got the electric field, of course, because ofwiring. And so I started to dig into your website, and there's wholedownloadable PDFs and all this stuff where you guys had third party scientistscome in and actually test. And so it passed my standards of being low enoughEMF where I feel like the benefits of using the product is by far going tooutweigh any minimal EMF exposure. 

And from what I lookedat on your research was that you have industry standards for whatever theregulatory agency is, FCC, allowable levels of EMF to be safe, and yours wereexponentially lower than that. And that was that was like a big part of my buyin. So I guess the question is, at what point in your development over theyears did you become aware that that was an issue for people potentially, andwhat steps were necessary in order to redesign things in a proprietary way thatwould limit the exposure for the user? And then at what point did you decide tohave a third party come in and go, okay, we think we nailed it, but get yourmeters out and let us know if we did?

Connie Zack: [01:53:00]I keep saying back in the basement, but I mean, it started 20 plus years ago.And the reason it started as far as our commitment to doing everything we couldto have as low EMF as possible, is that with my brother being so sick withheavy metals, he was also so sensitive. His body became sensitive to EMF. Andso I learned, I mean, this was so foreign to me but I learned so much about thewhole sensitivity, and Aaron did as well. 

I mean, at the very,very beginning, we were just trying to-- we were a distributor for a companyselling a product. That was the very, very beginning. And then once we startedto figure out these products, they don't match with our wellness values, whichis develop a product that is not only esthetically pleasing and comfortable,meets a consumer's needs, but really it must be designed to be as healthy of aproduct as possible, meaning that the EMF, the glues, the wood, the components,everything.

So that all just comesfrom the very, very beginning. And so our first product, we had these conduitswhere we had them shielded, and we would market that for people. People didn'teven know what EMF was, but we would educate them. And we didn't-- one thingthat was different about us than a lot of the other people is we didn't want toscare people. We just wanted to give them peace that they were safe. We neveruse that, as I always told our people we would hire, I'm like, this is not aselling point. And it maybe should be, but we never-- this is just a fact.

This is a criteria forsuccess and how we're making the product. So you can share it from that point.But I never wanted anybody to get into that place where they were putting otherpeople down and saying this and this and this. I just wanted like, this is howwe do it, and this is why. So anyway, that's--

Luke Storey: [01:55:35]That's respectable too, by the way, because one very effective method ofmarketing is problem reaction solution. So your headline on your home pagecould be like, do you know that your son is frying you to death with EMF? Thesefour other brands are doing it to you, buy ours. You know what I mean? Thereare certain number of indifferent product categories of brands that use thatscare tactic. 

But to your point,there are people like me and many people listening to the show that are verydiscerning and are aware that there is a cost-benefit ratio using things thatplug into the wall or that have wireless technology in them. And there aredefinitely people, I can guarantee you that want to find that page on yourwebsite that I found that are like, okay, cool, this checks out. I can relaxand know that I'm not doing something that's good for me, but also has somelevel of deficit that comes along with it.

Connie Zack: [01:56:25]Right. Exactly. And that's why we committed to the journey. And it has been ajourney. It has definitely been a journey of evolution. And we're at abeautiful place now with it. You have no idea how great it feels just from thevery, very beginning, because as we evolved and as we developed more productsand coming out with Impulse, just everywhere along the way, to answer yourquestion specifically, we designed it to have the lowest EMF possible.Everything we knew within our power that we could control, we controlled. Andthen we also tested to validate.

There was a time whenmy favorite tests we ever did, something else, I don't know if I've shared inforever, is we were at our first location in Kansas City. And some company wassaying our saunas had bad air or something crazy back then. And so we're like,bad air? That's so weird. Why would they say that? Oh, I know. Because when wechanged the heating elements and they're like, the heating elements, it'scarbon. It's producing-- anyway. 

So we're like, well,you know what? Just because it's the right thing to do, we should actually testthe quality of the air inside our product, just to test it. So we had anindependent company come out, and we had those tests somewhere. We don't put iton our website, and this is so old, but the interesting part of this story isour sauna, inside, was perfect. It was beautiful. The guy that was doing thetest, he was like, holy cow. The air had lots of toxins.

Luke Storey: [01:58:12]The ambient air in the factory?

Connie Zack: [01:58:13]Yeah. Just the regular air. It wasn't the factory. It was in our showroom,which was just an office building. The guy, I'll never forget, because he waslike, oh, my goodness, I'm going to live in there, because it's a lothealthier. Yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:58:29]Because outside of the sauna, there's probably carpets and furnitureoff-gassing, or paint, or whatever. Yeah. That's funny.

Connie Zack: [01:58:36]Yeah. This is 2005, probably. I mean, this is a long time ago. But my point ofthat test, because that was one of the first tests we ever did on our product.And but then every place, every time we make a change to our product, we wouldtest it for EMF. And on the far-infrared line, the Signature, it wasn't hard toget it to be non-existent, to get it to be low. 

But as we made changesin different features, especially when we launched Impulse, and we had threedifferent wavelengths, and we had the LED, you had things where it added on thebenefit, but it increased the level. Never was it to a point where it was-- Imean, of course not. We would never have launched it, but we always wanted toget it, what we call non-existent. And so what was it? A couple of years ago.I've lost track a little bit of when we changed a bunch of different things,some wiring, some AC, electrical current. 

And then we had themagical test, the independent test company that we've been using for all theseyears along the way, biotech as a company come in, and with COVID, wherethey're supposed to come in before COVID. And that was so frustrating becausethen they couldn't travel. They were in, I think, Philadelphia, out East. 

And finally, when theygot the release that they could travel, then they made the trip, and they didthe final test just to show that indeed all of the products are virtuallynon-existent. And we do have that data, as you said. I'm so glad that you foundit. We don't lead with it. You'll never see-- but it's there for the personthat it's really important to.

Luke Storey: [02:00:27]I think that's a smart way to do it because it's like, if someone doesn't evenknow what EMF is but they want a sauna, then it doesn't really matter to thembecause you know you have the integrity of knowing that it's safe. But theinformation is there for geeks like me for whom it is a major concern. I'm just glad you did it. And I'm imagining--

Connie Zack: [02:00:46]Thank you.

Luke Storey: [02:00:47]Imagining over the years, having that goal with you and Aaron probably drovesome of your engineers crazy because they were like, hey, guys, we nailed thisnew type of heater or whatever, and you're like, it didn't pass the smell teston the EMF levels. And they got to go back to the drawing board. Because Imean, we've shielded the EMF in many rooms in this house, and I mean, it'scomplex. It's difficult. It's expensive. It's not easy to have something thatuses electricity, which is 60Hz. You have an electric field. 

If there's any kind ofa motor heater, then it makes a magnetic field. If you want any wireless stuffso you can activate, have your iPad play music or whatever, then you've got theWi-Fi and Bluetooth, and it's like, there's so many types of EMF, and they allget blocked or shielded using different materials. It's super hard. So I feelfor companies like you that have to go through the extra expense and hassle ofdoing it. But I just want you to know there are people like me and, literally,thousands of people that are going to hear this episode over the course of itslifetime that will be like, thank you for doing that.

Connie Zack: [02:01:52]Aw, that makes my heart smile.

Luke Storey: [02:01:55]It's meaningful.

Luke Storey: [02:01:56]Yeah. And I really appreciate it because when you said that you drove peoplecrazy, it reminded me of that company. I remember when we called them in KansasCity back in 2005 to come test the air, and they're like, we'll do that, butyou're going to pay us to do that. Are you sure you want to do that? Becausethat's a silly test. We're like, yeah. We were like, okay, we'll come overthere. They're trying to talk us out of like, we'll take your money. But wereally don't feel good about taking your money because I'm sure it's reallyfine.

Luke Storey: [02:02:30]Well, it might be silly to someone who's really healthy and resilient, but it'snot silly for someone who's immunocompromised or has some chronic healthcondition for whom the scale tips at a certain level of exposure to somethinglike off-gassing chemicals or EMF. To your average person who's super strongand resilient, maybe it's not that hard of a hit, but many people that getsomething like a sauna are using it to heal because there's something wrong,it's like, every little micro step in that process helps.

Connie Zack: [02:03:02]That's what we told them.

Luke Storey: [02:03:03]It's like death by a thousand cuts kind of thing.

Connie Zack: [02:03:05]Yeah, it was 18 years ago though, so they were in a different learning curve.

Luke Storey: [02:03:10]Yeah. In terms of the air quality too, I also noticed in your web materialsthat you use certain types of wood that don't off-gas crazy amounts ofessential oils, and that also you're not using adhesives and glues that couldthen get into the air. What's up with the air quality part of what you do?

Connie Zack: [02:03:30]Yeah. That was something we-- everything we've done over the years is allbecause of a reaction. So we start with our core of, we want to create thehighest quality, most effective healing product. Our intentions were pure andthat's how we always set forth. But then, for example, back in the basement, wehad a sauna that was made with poplar wood. And the manufacturer told us thatthat wood is hypoallergenic and fragrance free. And so we bought into it. Imean, not a wood expert. Well, now I am. But I wasn't back then. 

And we had consumersthat would call and say, my eyes are itchy and my throat hurts. We didn't havea lot of sales back then. So you have one or two customers calling. I mean,that's a really big deal. And so we started to do research of what is the deal?Well, indeed, there's actually a list by the Woodworkers Association that'scalled the Toxic Woods List. And toxic, they use that word. I don't love thatword in this regard because it's kind of heavy. 
It really is just woods that can cause allergic reactions, but for us, that'snot okay. It's not acceptable. So we had to go on a search for what is a woodthat doesn't do that. And then that's been our criteria ever since. And wefound basswood, which is-- we found a couple of woods. But at that moment intime it was basswood, which is the wood that beekeepers use. And they use itfor the reason that it has no oils, no fragrance.

Luke Storey: [02:05:25]Oh cool.

Connie Zack: [02:05:26]Yeah.

Luke Storey: [02:05:26]And the one I have here, the Amplify, is eucalyptus, I think.

Connie Zack: [02:05:30]Yeah. So that's the more recent one. We were using teak forever ago becauseconsumers wanted just a little bit more of a grain. They didn't want the cedarbecause of the fragrance and the issues.

Luke Storey: [02:05:50]That's so funny because when I got mine, I wanted cedar because I like thesmell. But then I've learned some people-- we have this thing called cedarfever here, which is from the pollen, not from the oils in the wood. But mywife got a horrible case of it this last cedar fever season. I mean, it waslike freaking Lyme disease. She was a wreck. Yeah. We had to leave town. Justwent on for weeks and we're like, okay, we actually have to leave. It won't goaway.

Connie Zack: [02:06:16]It's horrible.

Luke Storey: [02:06:17]Yeah, but that's the pollen. Apparently, the male cedar trees are very randy,and they put off their pollen everywhere. But I love the smell of a cedarsauna. But I've since learned that there are people, as you said, that areirritated by the oils that get released in a cedar sauna, which I had no ideabecause I just don't happen to react to it. 

Connie Zack: [02:06:36]Yeah. I don't either. But yeah, it's a real thing. And so we had to find a woodthat was both fragrance-free as well as had that dark, grainy look to meet theconsumer's needs. And I love Eucalyptus. It's what I have as well.

Luke Storey: [02:06:54]Me too. Another thing I thought that was interesting, admittedly, I don't havethe tech skills to put anything together. If I did, I wouldn't know it becauseI just hate putting stuff together and reading instructions. It just scramblesmy brain. So my handyman put this sauna together, but he was super stokedbecause apparently, it goes together with magnets where a lot of saunas havethese clips. And then I've noticed with prior saunas that are built with theclips that the wood expands and contracts over time, and then the clips don'tfit anymore and you're like, what the hell? It used to fit. 

And then it's hard toget it clipped, and it just janky. And he was just like, oh my God, thisthing's amazing. He got it put together, I don't know, in a half an hour orsomething. I walked up and I was like, how did you do that? He's like, oh, youjust snap it together, and it has magnets. So that was news to me. Why do youdo it that way?

Connie Zack: [02:07:46]For the exact reason you just described. I mean, you brought me back again.This has been a journey back. I mean, we worked with a manufacturer, 18 yearsago that used clips. And we had people that are like, what is the deal? I'vehad my sauna for a couple of months, and now, the wood-- And then also theissue with the boards would start to separate a little bit. And so there wouldbe this tiny little gap, and air would come through. I mean, tiny littlethings. But that's not okay with us. 

And we went to themanufacturer. The manufacturer wouldn't do anything. We called our belovedengineering firm that thought we were crazy in town, just said, hey, can youcome and take a look at this product? There has to be a better way because thisis not working, and we just can't continue this. And so we came up withmagnets. And it is more expensive. I mean, magnets are really expensive. Idon't know how much people know about it, but they're super expensive. 

But we changed thewhole product to magnets, and it makes it really easy. I call it adult Legos,because it's just really easy to put it together. And it helped with the integrityand the longevity of the sauna. And with that frustration, that little gapthing would really bother people because they'd be like, I hear the air comingin.

Luke Storey: [02:09:24]And that's not good.

Connie Zack: [02:09:26]That's not good.

Luke Storey: [02:09:28]Well, another thing I just remembered too about the clip-together models isthat each time I would move, because the last one I had, I had for a number ofyears, and when I would move, then things would get shifted even more and weird.And then each time I moved, it was harder to put it back together, and thingsdidn't quite align, and it became more difficult for whoever I hired to put itback together. And I was like, oh, this is annoying. It got harder and harderevery time I'd had to move it around.

Connie Zack: [02:09:55]That happened for us when we used to do shows, because the Internet, it was notas robust as it is today. And so we'd have to go in person. And we would put upa sauna in our booth, and then we would take it down and we would take it backto the showroom, now it doesn't go together. How did that happen? Thatshouldn't be that way.

Luke Storey: [02:10:18]Totally. Well done on that. Last question I have for you here is, where do yousee the-- well, it might not be the last one. I always say that and then Ithink of four of the things. But one of the last questions for you, Connie,where do you see the future of infrared sauna therapy going? What's your dream?What would you like to see happen, tech developments, availability,scalability, business wise? Where do you see this in five years, 10 years, 20years?

Connie Zack: [02:10:47]Well, number one, I do see this full circle of our conversation to the title ofyour podcast as being part of people's lifestyle. It is what you do to maintainyour mental wellness, your physical wellness, your sexual wellness. As long asyou went there before, might as well go there again. And so that's my vision.And I mean, I do see it coming to fruition. I also see the experience changingin the sense that it's going to be a more experiential opportunity for peopleeither in a lot more commercial locations and all over the place or inside thesauna being able to provide engagement with your podcast, let's just say. 

You're sitting in thereand you're like, oh, man. Your brain's going, you're thinking, oh, I'd love toknow more about niacin, or I'd love to know more about hormones, or whatever.And so I want to listen to this. And you can actually consume content that isin the moment, and you have this selection that's right at your fingertips,either inside the sauna or on an app on your phone.

But it changes theopportunity to-- what I would love to see is Sunlighten helping, going back tothe hormone thing, but at wellness. So same of what I'm committed to doing withhelping women demystify, to use your word, demystify the whole hormoneexperience, knowledge, etc. I would love to be able to have Sunlighten connectour consumers with people like you and people all over with different areaswith their area of focus for that day while they're in their sauna.

So it's there. I mean,it's taking habit stacking to another level, where they're thinking ofsomething. I'm going to go in, and I'm going to not only use my sauna, but I'malso going to learn more about this. And Sunlighten's the company that'sconnecting me with that expert.

Luke Storey: [02:13:35]Awesome. Yeah. I love it.

Connie Zack: [02:13:37]So that's what I would love to see, both of those two things would begreat. 

Luke Storey: [02:13:40]Very cool. Yeah. Because if you're spending the time in there, I'm all aboutstacking things too like how many things can I cram into 20 minutes that havebenefits? So I like that. I know the sauna that I have has some changeablecolor lights on top like a chromotherapy element, and if I'm not mistaken, Ithink I saw something about like a sound therapy thing. Do you guys do that oram I imagining?

Connie Zack: [02:14:05]No. It's something we started doing, gosh, forever. It is my favorite. I say alot of things in my favorite, though, but for the moment, it's my favoriteaccessory. It's called acoustic resonance therapy, and it's called acousticresonance therapy because it combines sound and vibration together to balancethe brainwaves while they're inside the sauna. So it's scientifically-- again,that's our thing, is you're learning from this scientifically validated andproven to take your brain from the alpha state to the theta state.

And how it works, as alay terms, is there's transducers underneath the bench. All of our saunas arealready pre-designed to accept it, whether you get it or you don't get it, youcan always add it later. And then when you turn it on, it's like sitting on acello. You start to feel the vibration as well as listen to the sound. And it'spatternless music. So it literally like shuts-- when I turn it on, I shut myeyes and I feel my shoulders drop, and I just melt into the back of the sauna,and it's fantastic.

Luke Storey: [02:15:23]That's badass. I love that, the vibration and sound technology.

Connie Zack: [02:15:28]Yeah, I do too. It's so fascinating.

Luke Storey: [02:15:30]I'm so excited there are more things emerging in that realm, these sound beds,and there's all kinds of cool stuff coming out now. I had one for a while, butI didn't have space for it. It's called a vibe bed.

Connie Zack: [02:15:40]Yeah. We have one.

Luke Storey: [02:15:41]You plug your iPhone into it and play tracks through the earphones and throughyour whole body. I mean, it's a cool experience. Yeah. It's definitelysomething I'd like to integrate at some point.

Connie Zack: [02:15:51]Yeah, you should. We have one, and we don't use it as often, but it isdefinitely the thing that if you have one of those nights where you wake up andyour brain starts racing and you start to think about, oh, both Aaron and Iwill just-- I know if he's having a rough night because he comes over becausethe buttons on my side, and he'll turn it on and I'm like, because now when hegets up, I wake up.

Luke Storey: [02:16:21]Sure.

Connie Zack: [02:16:21]So, yeah, it's very, very effective.

Luke Storey: [02:16:24]Cool. And then what's up with the towels? This is the first sauna I've everreceived that came with some special towels. And also, by the way, thank youfor putting a bench pad in there too. My prior sauna, I ordered online just oneof those gel seat cushions. And I had those covered with a towel. I mean, itserved the purpose, but it was janky. It just wouldn't stay in place, and itwas annoying. But you guys had a really nice pad, and then a gray Terry Clothtowel cover. But then it came with these towels that I think add some benefitto the sauna experience. What's up with the towels?

Connie Zack: [02:17:06]They do. They are made with a fiber from a sealant. So it's the same. It'sinfrared-emitting, antimicrobial, antibacterial. So what that means for theconsumer is going to help keep the sauna clean, but it's also going to enhancethe output of infrared. So it's the same technology that Tom Brady uses withhis, I don't know if you've heard of his pajama line that he-- I mean, it helpshim sleep, is using that same fiber, which does work. Years and years ago, wehad this, it's a similar fiber that we've upgraded to this sealant, but itbamboo charcoal, which is a very similar infrared-emitting fiber. 

And I add this tank topthat I used to wear, I mean, always whenever I would travel underneathsomething because I would get cold on planes, and the fiber working with my ownnatural infrared, the infrared with infrared would just-- I mean, I was never,ever cold. So it's the same type of concept with the sealant. It's really atechnological advancement that you get with your sauna.

Luke Storey: [02:18:22]Cool. I'm glad to know that. Now I'm definitely going to make sure I use those.I mean, I made a point--

Connie Zack: [02:18:25]You should use those versus other fibers.

Luke Storey: [02:18:26]Yeah. I made a point to keep that collection of towels upstairs where the saunais, so I'm never tempted to grab a hand towel from the other room or something.So that's cool, man. I love the innovation. I love your attention to detail,your passion to keep learning and growing, and your understanding of thisstuff. I find it very refreshing when people bring something to market anddon't just go, oh, we put the thing out, and now we're just going to makemoney. It's really cool that you continued after all these years to research,and innovate, and improve. So thank you for doing that. Thank you for-- 

Connie Zack: [02:18:58]Thanks for having me.

Luke Storey: [02:18:59]Making something awesome that has improved my life dramatically and willcontinue to do so. Very last question, I promise. And that is this. Who havebeen three teachers or teachings that have influenced your life that you'd liketo share with us?

Connie Zack: [02:19:12]Three teachers or teachings?

Luke Storey: [02:19:15]Yeah. It could be a philosophy, a person, dead or alive, a book, anything ofthat nature.

Connie Zack: [02:19:19]Okay. So I'll come with the best teacher, which is my mom. She's just abeautiful person that always does the right thing. And it was really myinspiration for always being authentic, especially when it comes to femininity,because I think, as a female, in a world where, especially in manufacturing,and a lot of industries, and a lot of spaces where it is male-dominated,running a company which is typically male-dominated, we're in a differentplace, she just always taught me to stay true to me and be me, which is veryfreeing. 

It's just a beautifulway to raise my kids. I always say be you because everybody else is taken. Soshe's just a beautiful person. So that's my number one teacher, for sure. Asfar as teachings, my favorite teaching-- I don't even know where this camefrom. This was a quote that I gave when I was awarded. There's a network inKansas City called Women Who Mean Business, which is put on by the Kansas CityBusiness Journal and they select 25 women each year. And you have to be allthese criteria. And I won that 2006 as a result of Sunlighten. And you had toshare your favorite thing on stage.

And I remember this sowell because all of the other people had these beautiful, like Ralph WaldoEmerson, long soliloquies, Abraham Lincoln, Harriet Beecher Stowe, all thesethings. And there was an announcer that was doing it. And they're like, andConnie Zack says, follow your gut. And I was like-- it was walking this longwalk. And it was all this silence for the rest of the day. I'm like, I probablyshould have picked a longer thing.

Luke Storey: [02:21:29]That's funny.

Connie Zack: [02:21:31]But I have had gaps, full disclosure over the years. I was very strong withthat that year and following years. And then I did, especially when we had somebusiness travels and stuff, I did veer away from that. And I don't know, I'dprobably say about seven or eight years ago, January 1st of whatever year thatwas, I pictured me having my stiletto heels on, and a nice dress. And I wasdigging those heels into the ground and said, Connie, you're done not followingyour gut. You're done. You will always do it because it never leads me wrong.And I think the key that I'm learning about that is knowing when it's reallyyour intuition that's in your gut versus emotion or thought.

Luke Storey: [02:22:30]Interesting.

Connie Zack: [02:22:30]So that's to me the key. And I constantly work on validating the intuitionversus-- I'm guilty of, this is what I want in my heart, but is it really theright thing to do? So just having that in check is, to me, the most importantthing. Another teaching. I will go to, since you've taken me back to some toughtimes when Aaron and I were in at Inc. 5000 conference, or whatever, and wewere struggling with the business, and I didn't feel very Inc. 5000 worthy atthe time. 

And I was sitting at atable with some very amazing, successful people, and we were listening to apresentation and somebody shared-- I'm trying to think of who it was now. No, Ican't remember who the quote came from, but it really sang and resonated withboth Aaron and I. And so I say it to people all the time when they go throughdifficult things. And it is, when you're going through hell, keep going.

Luke Storey: [02:23:47]God, so good.

Connie Zack: [02:23:49]Yeah. We were sitting there and we're just like, okay, we're just going to--it's like-- I don't know if you've ever run a marathon, but I ran one whenAaron was training, Iroman with him, and same thing at Mile 21. I remember thepace keeper, where he was with a group of women over to the side. And I wasreally-- I mean, I was tough. That Mile 21 was really hard. And I kept saying,I can do this. And I heard him tell this group of women, he said, the onlything you have to do from here to the end is put one foot in front of theother. And I was like, oh my God, I can do that. I can put one foot in front ofthe other.

To think about runninganother 5.2 miles was too much, but I can put one foot in front of the other.So I'm like, that's all I have to do, is put one foot in front of the other.And I just kept saying that for 5.2 more miles until I saw my kids, and they'rejust like, you got this, mom. And I was like, okay, now I'll just let theenergy take me through. But it's the same thing, just whatever you do. Andthat's our family motto. Our family mantra is don't quit. Whatever you do,don't quit. It feels like you want to, just keep going. You can get through it.But you can't if you stop. So you just have to keep going.

Luke Storey: [02:25:04]If you're going through hell, keep going.

Connie Zack: [02:25:06]Yeah.

Luke Storey: [02:25:07]I love it. I'm tempted to name the title of the podcast that because it's sogood, but then no one will know it's about saunas. Unless, of course, saunasare difficult for you because heat is intolerable, then that could apply.

Connie Zack: [02:25:20]Yeah, we want people to enjoy themselves.

Luke Storey: [02:25:23]No. We do. I know very few people that don't like saunas. I mean, I havefriends that want to come over here and use the sauna all the time because theydon't have one.

Connie Zack: [02:25:31]I thought about that when I saw yours. I was like, oh my gosh, because I missedone.

Luke Storey: [02:25:35]Hey, listen, if you have time, you're more than welcome.

Connie Zack: [02:25:38]Oh, you're so sweet.

Luke Storey: [02:25:39]More than welcome to try it out. You wouldn't be the first. I mean, and that'sreally one of the most fun things about just collecting these different devicesand things over the years is just like, we have our own healing center. Andwhen somebody needs support, like I had a hyperbaric chamber for a long time,and finally got rid of it for a number of reasons recently, but I was the guyin town that had a hyperbaric chamber that didn't cost you $250 to go use. Itwas free. 

So my friends, if theywere sick, or hurt their ankle, or something, and if it was applicable to theirissue, they'd come over and use it. And it brings me great joy to be able toshare this stuff. It's super fun.

Connie Zack: [02:26:15]Yeah, well, thank you for doing it. And again, thanks for inviting me to comedown here. It's been a great trip. I've loved every moment of it.

Luke Storey: [02:26:22]Well, you were very fortunate to come here at this time. This is the sweet spotof Austin in terms of weather. If you came in July or August, you might havebeen happy. Which I learned.

Connie Zack: [02:26:34]I like heat.

Luke Storey: [02:26:35]Okay. Yeah. I don't know.

Connie Zack: [02:26:37]I'm in the business.

Luke Storey: [02:26:38]Everyone warned me about it when we moved here. Oh man, in the summer, everyoneleaves and goes to the mountains. And I'm like, what? I'm from LA. I can handleit. And this last year, we got hit pretty hard for three months. And I waslike, okay, I get it. I'm going to the mountains next year.

Connie Zack: [02:26:50]That's awesome.

Luke Storey: [02:26:50]So hopefully this summer I can escape somewhere. Well, thank you so much,Connie. Great to meet you. Thanks again for doing awesome work in the world,and I look forward to seeing you again.

Connie Zack: [02:26:58]Thank you. Yay.

Luke Storey: [02:27:01]All right, guys, that's a wrap. Thanks for spending some time with me andConnie today. My wish for you is that you feel fully educated on all thingssaunas after this episode. And I got to say, even when I feel prettywell-versed in a topic, I never fail to learn something new in theseconversations. So thank you for joining me as I conduct them. 

Before we jam, I've gota special announcement for you. If you are, like me, concerned about thestability of the dollar and the volatility of the banking system, listen up.Last year, I finally motivated myself to start to learn about how to invest ingold and silver, and I resisted this for years as it just seemed toooverwhelming. But if the past three years have taught me anything, it's that Ican't rely on our institutions to have my back. So I teamed up with Dr.Christiane Northrup, a past guest on the show, to offer you a free masterclasswebinar on exactly this topic. 

But heads up. It'scoming up this Friday, June 2nd at 10 AM Central. And to join us, all you needto do is register. It's totally free. Here's what you do. Go tolukestorey.com/goldandsilver. Again, this is an online event that takes placelive with me and Christiane Northrup this Friday, June 2nd. So make sure toregister at lukestorey.com/goldandsilver. And heads up, even if you can't makethe live event, if you miss it, we'll send you the replay. It's thatimportant. 

Okay, on to next week'sepisode. It's called Beyond Hydration: Structured Water to Heal People, AnimalPlants, and Soil with Mario Brainovic. And if you're a long-time listener, youknow how obsessed I am with water. And if you're new to the show, you're aboutto find out. And if you're someone who's interested in not only drinking thebest water yourself, but also in a shared vision to heal all the water on theplanet, you heard that right, you definitely want to tap, subscribe, or followon your podcast app right now.

See what I did there?Tap. Don't drink tap water, guys. Listen to next week's show. When yousubscribe to this podcast, every new episode will be waiting for you in yourdownload queue each time we publish a new one. So I can't wait to be back withyou next Tuesday on the Life Stylist podcast. Thanks for listening.

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