[00:00:00] Luke Storey: All right, Steve. We get to finally sit down face-to-face. Yeah, [00:00:05] yeah. Finally happened, yeah. I'm so excited. You were, you were such a big, um, benchmark for me in terms of, uh, the podcast we did, you know, remotely online, and I'm always happy to do those, but it's just such a more rich experience for me to sit down- Yeah, it's great to be together
[00:00:20] Luke Storey: and share space with someone.
[00:00:21] Steven Pressfield: Yeah, yeah.
[00:00:21] Luke Storey: Um, and right now I think it's especially meaningful to me, having spent the past couple years writing a book. As I was telling you earlier, I have a newfound, um, level of respect for authors. Uh-huh. It's like people, you know, they come sit on the podcast. We have their book sitting here.
[00:00:38] Luke Storey: We have your newest book, The Arcadian, sitting here, and I go, "Oh, that's great. He wrote a book." Yeah. Whatever, you know? But now that I know, at least from my experience, what it takes, um, there's... I have a sense of- Ah ... awe and respect for people that have done it consistently and done it successfully- Mm ... as you have, so.
[00:00:53] Luke Storey: Let me
[00:00:54] Steven Pressfield: interview you a little
[00:00:55] Luke Storey: bit, Luke, just for a
[00:00:56] Steven Pressfield: second
[00:00:56] Luke Storey: here. Hey,
[00:00:56] Steven Pressfield: whatever you wanna do,
[00:00:56] Luke Storey: man. And we can always edit stuff out, right? Let me just ask you- I never edit anything out, by the way. Oh, you don't? Okay. I think once someone asked me, they said something [00:01:05] political or something. They said, "Hey, can you take that out?"
[00:01:06] Luke Storey: But I would leave everything in.
[00:01:09] Steven Pressfield: Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, let me ask you about your book that you just wrote. Okay. Um, what was, what was the genesis of it? I'm really curious. What, what made you- Have you wanted to do this for years and years? Or what ha- what was the genesis?
[00:01:23] Luke Storey: You know, it's funny, I actually wrote about the genesis of the book in the book.
[00:01:27] Luke Storey: After I'd had a podcast for a number of years and was successful in, in doing that and, uh, was doing a lot of public speaking and things like that, and kind of building my personal brand and getting myself out there. Uh, as I was telling you before, I worked in the fashion industry before. I was a musician.
[00:01:43] Luke Storey: I did a lot of different things, but as I got more committed to my spiritual path, th- there was a incongruence between my career and my personal life. So I was living in LA and this double life. I'm going to meditation retreats and doing yoga, and I'm in, you know, recovery, and it's like my personal life was all about my [00:02:05] growth and healing and awakening, and yet I'm in this very superficial day job where I'm- Mm-hmm
[00:02:10] Luke Storey: you know, shopping for shoes for ladies- Uh-huh ... for a music video or whatever. Uh-huh. So I'm like, yes, I finally found what I wanna do, and was successful at that, and that was growing, and it seemed like when I would look at my peers in, in the space I was in and am in, um, everyone writes a book. Ah. And then you have a book, and then, you know, you get paid more to go on speaking tours- Uh-huh
[00:02:32] Luke Storey: and it's a way to, like, get your name out. So I looked at the book as, like, a business move kind of, right? Oh, uh-huh. Like, like a fancy business card. And so I was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna write a book. I'm gonna write a book." I sat on that for, like, two years. I couldn't write one word. And then, uh, which I found fascinating 'cause it's something I really wanna do.
[00:02:51] Luke Storey: Why am I not doing it? What's the, what's the hold up here? What's the block? And then I went and, um, sat in a mushroom ceremony with a healer- Uh-huh ... uh, up in the Hollywood Hills, and, um, it was r- it was right up the street from my [00:03:05] house at the time, actually. And, um, that was really the first time I'd ever taken mushrooms in an- Uh-huh
[00:03:09] Luke Storey: intentional way like that. Uh-huh. You know, apart from just partying as a teenager. Long story short, I have this really deep experience, and in that journey I started contemplating why, why is this book thing not happening? What's it supposed to be? Why, why am I not motivated? Why am I stuck? And what I realized was that the reason that I couldn't find any motivation to do it was because it was completely self-serving.
[00:03:34] Luke Storey: It was, like, something I wanted for myself. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And some... You know, uh, there was a lot of ego attached to it. I wanna be somebody and be recognized- Uh-huh ... and, yeah, I wanna make more money or whatever, right? Uh-huh, uh-huh. And then I was just... It was hilarious to me that I couldn't see that before.
[00:03:48] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. You know, but I had that, that moment of clarity and like, oh, no wonder I'm not motivated because that's not what really truly motivates me to do anything meaningful in life. Um, and then As that started to reveal itself the title of the book, the premise of the book, the whole thing just [00:04:05] downloaded into me, and then I walked out of there and I couldn't stop writing.
[00:04:09] Luke Storey: Ah. And it was just- So in this
[00:04:10] Steven Pressfield: one night or this one experience.
[00:04:12] Luke Storey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. But then the, you know, the COVID thing happened- Uh-huh ... and then that, we had to move out of L- or, you know, decided to move out of LA and move to Texas, so there was, like, a lot of- Uh-huh ... delays just because a lot of big life changes happened.
[00:04:24] Luke Storey: But that was really the pinnacle, was like, "I need to do this as a business move." Uh. "That doesn't, figuring out that doesn't motivate me. Well, if that doesn't, what does?" And then I realized in that journey that, "Wow, Luke, you really have a lot of life experience and hard-earned wisdom that could really help a lot of people."
[00:04:42] Luke Storey: And once I started orienting around legitimately having an impact on people in a positive way, then, then I found the motivation, which was a huge lesson because I could see that my value system had evolved over time. Uh-huh. It wasn't something I set out to do. Uh-huh. But that was a demonstration of it in real time that's like, "Wow, I'm not really motivated by just making [00:05:05] money or trying to m- be famous or something."
[00:05:06] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. You know? It's like it's nice. Some of that's nice. It affords you some freedom and, uh, flexibility, but it's, it's ultimately not really enough to inspire me to sit there and touch a keyboard. Let me ask you a couple of technical things here. I'm supposed to be interviewing you, but I'm...
[00:05:19] Luke Storey: Please. Well, we'll, you know- Writer to writer ... we'll go
[00:05:21] Steven Pressfield: back, back and forth. Yeah. I, I
[00:05:23] Luke Storey: feel I'm sitting at the feet of a, a writing- Yeah ... legend here, so. Um,
[00:05:27] Steven Pressfield: did you... Like, issues like, uh, uh, like I wrote a memoir a couple of years ago called Government Cheese. It was about my kind of, my life, and one of the, a couple things that, that- Did you grow up on food stamps or something?
[00:05:38] Steven Pressfield: Well, it, it had to, it had to do with that. Okay. Or not, not that exactly. Okay. But, um, the tone of voice, the point of view, who w- how, who you are as the, as the, the I in the story. I s- you know. Um, and then what, what's the structure gonna be? What's, what's the... Did you, how did you evolve that? 'Cause it- I [00:06:05] mean, it seemed, you know, what you just told me, it's sort of like it all fell into place like that.
[00:06:09] Steven Pressfield: Yeah. Did it? You didn't have to worry about, uh, what your tone of voice was or what the structure... How did
[00:06:14] Luke Storey: that come
[00:06:15] Steven Pressfield: about? Right,
[00:06:15] Luke Storey: right. There's, yeah, there's two parts. There's kind of the mechanics of it, the outline and whatnot, right? Yeah. And that went through, that went through a few iterations, and I hired a writing coach, um- Ah
[00:06:25] Luke Storey: named Jeannie Faulkner. Shout out to Jeannie in Portland, Oregon. Uh, she worked with my wife on her book. So it was interesting, right when I started, when I had that realization, was like, "Okay, I'm gonna write a proposal and, like, get this movie out- Uh-huh ... now that I know what it is," my wife was in the process of writing her book.
[00:06:42] Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
[00:06:42] Luke Storey: Uh, when we- she moved in, then the COVID thing happened, and so I sat and watched her write her book- Uh-huh ... and go through the whole process of that. So I had kind of an understanding. And her writing coach/editor, Jeannie, helped her outline her book, and so she helped me just- Uh-huh ... pen to paper, writing some circles, you know, kind of what's the core theme and then- Ah
[00:07:01] Luke Storey: what are the different chapters gonna look like? Uh-huh. Um, [00:07:05] so I used that as a framework, which was very helpful. And then it ended up, you know, the finished product ended up being pretty close to that, uh, because it's a, you know, the foundation of it is a memoir, but I'm not famous, so publishers aren't gonna pay me to write a memoir, you know what I mean?
[00:07:23] Luke Storey: And if the, you know- No, not necessarily. Well, I mean, maybe. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. So far in my journey, the publisher- Uh-huh ... was like, "Your story is really amazing, but we need a lot of explanatory and instructive content to balance it out," right? Uh-huh, uh-huh. That kind of thing. Um, so that was, that was kind of the mechanics of it.
[00:07:38] Luke Storey: But as far as the tone, I mean, the way I communicate in my interpersonal relationships and even publicly on this podcast, uh, I'm just very real, raw, honest. Uh-huh. I don't really have a filter, uh, which sometimes gets me in trouble. But that was... I just decided from the get-go, I'm gonna tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
[00:08:01] Luke Storey: And some of the truth in my life when it comes to the narrative portion of it is, [00:08:05] is pretty risque and-
[00:08:06] Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh ...
[00:08:07] Luke Storey: you know, my ego does not like what I'm writing and what I'm planning to share at all. You know, you wrote a lot about resistance, um, you know, and we're gonna talk about that. The War of Art was extremely helpful to me, um, in terms of just the perseverance and dedication and discipline required to actually get it done.
[00:08:27] Steven Pressfield: But- Did you find that you had to restructure your life in a way to get the time in? And I mean, did you- Oh my God ... did you have a regular writing regimen that you did? Oh my God. Uh. I mean-
[00:08:40] Luke Storey: That bad, huh? Not exaggerating, thousands of hours I've spent.
[00:08:46] Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
[00:08:46] Luke Storey: I've written 10 books- Uh-huh ... to end up with one.
[00:08:49] Luke Storey: I mean, really, the amount of editing that I've
[00:08:51] Steven Pressfield: done.
[00:08:51] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. The writing to me is fast. The editing is slow.
[00:08:55] Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
[00:08:56] Luke Storey: Once I sit down, I've never had writer's block. Uh-huh. I've never sat down and been like, "I don't know. I don't feel like it."
[00:09:01] Steven Pressfield: Uh. Like,
[00:09:01] Luke Storey: if I get to the keyboard,
[00:09:03] Steven Pressfield: I'll be there for [00:09:05] five, six- Uh-huh
[00:09:05] Steven Pressfield: eight hours. Did you experience any kind of resistance once you started to do the book? A lot of moments
[00:09:12] Luke Storey: of self-doubt, and also because it was such a long period of time, I think that's something that also made it kind of slower because when I started writing, it's the first time I'd ever done it, and I, I felt, like, pretty confident.
[00:09:26] Luke Storey: As I started writing, I would read something back- Uh-huh ... like, "Oh, shit, that's pretty good." Uh-huh. But then, you know, two years in, when I'm doing the final revisions, I go back to chapter one, the first one I wrote, and I'm like- Uh-huh ... "This is shit." Uh-huh. You know? It's just like it's real writery and wordy.
[00:09:41] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. You know, it just d- s- yeah, too much fluff and- Uh-huh ... too much color, right, where it just sounds kind of like trying
[00:09:50] Steven Pressfield: too hard. I mean, I found just even reading people's memoirs and then trying to write it myself, it's a really hard thing to do, to write as yourself, you know? To write, uh, in the first person as yourself is really hard.
[00:10:03] Steven Pressfield: Like, being an [00:10:05] actor, I think it's much easier to play a role than it is to, to be yourself, right? So it's, i- in a way, you almost have to adopt a persona, I think, you know, even if it's just a little bit off from who you are. At least that's my experience. Did you find that you had to do that, or you could just, just be yourself and just put it out there?
[00:10:26] Luke Storey: No, I, I, I didn't, I didn't find that difficult. Oh. The only part, uh, that's been difficult is just as time, as it's gotten closer to... It's gonna be published this November, and, uh, a- about, uh, three weeks from now, I turn in the copy edits, and then I can't touch it again. Oh. It's a done deal.
[00:10:45] Steven Pressfield: Oh, yeah.
[00:10:45] Luke Storey: So during the writing, I'm just going for it, but now I'm going like, "Ah, can you really say that?"
[00:10:51] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. "Do you really wanna be that honest, that- Uh ... revelatory?" Because some of the things are just, you know, they're mortifying to the ego. It's just- Uh ... you know, there's things in my life I'm definitely not proud of, but they were [00:11:05] instrumental in conveying the story and getting to the root of connection with yourself, with God.
[00:11:11] Luke Storey: And so I had to really dig deep and dive deep to help people hopefully identify some of the things in their life that caused them to feel this sense of separation and isolation. And so as someone who's had a lot of darkness in my past- Uh ... I really had to go in and relive a lot of the darkness- Uh-huh
[00:11:31] Luke Storey: which was a little difficult 'cause it's like being in a therapy session for two years straight Yeah. I'm just like, "Okay, I'm done thinking about all this shit." Now,
[00:11:38] Steven Pressfield: what did you hope that the reader- Would, would get. What's, what, what was the gift that you- That- Hoped to give them? I, a lot of
[00:11:46] Luke Storey: it I think is permission to face yourself and permission to face the painful things in life because those are the things that are still operational many times even though we're not aware of them.
[00:12:01] Luke Storey: You know? It's like digging into the shadows, right? And just [00:12:05] figuring out what has kept me stuck or what has kept me separated, and I'm sure many people that read the book won't identify with some of the most hardcore elements of it in terms of addiction and some of the things I went through, childhood trauma.
[00:12:16] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. You know, everyone's had their own version of that, but it's like let's all just learn how to be honest and vulnerable. Um, and I think in that, when I've heard people be that way through their writing, podcasts, whatever, it's kind of given me permission. Like, you can talk about things from- Uh-huh
[00:12:34] Luke Storey: your life in an open and honest way like that? And so as far as what I'd like the readers to get is giving them permission to really look within- Ah ... and to, to open their heart and, or, and to open their mind and think about things differently. Uh-huh. Be willing to have changes in perception. And that's kind of the meta thesis of the book is that in, in reality there is no separation.
[00:12:58] Luke Storey: There is only one thing, and we can just call it consciousness. But because we're in a body, we have a nervous system, we have all these [00:13:05] senses, I perceive there to be a you over there that I can't really connect with. Uh-huh. But the higher reality is we can't be unconnected. Uh-huh. So what is it that is reinforcing this illusion of separation?
[00:13:19] Luke Storey: And my hope is that readers will find whatever that illusion looks like for them and learn how to dismantle it to have a deeper sense- Oh ... of connection- So that's great. That's great ... to themselves. Ah. And, and ultimately to source, spirit, God. Uh-huh. The, the funny thing I discovered, uh, while I was writing that I'd never thought about was that I've been meditating for, you know, 30 years, right?
[00:13:42] Luke Storey: Pretty much every day. And I've never sat down in a meditation and felt lonely. Mm. I feel lonely a lot. I feel isolated a lot still even having written about it.
[00:13:53] Steven Pressfield: Mm.
[00:13:54] Luke Storey: Um, but I've never felt that in a meditation. Why? Why? Because I'm connecting to all that is.
[00:14:01] Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:01] Luke Storey: That's the time when I'm most connected to capital R [00:14:05] reality.
[00:14:05] Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:06] Luke Storey: So what if I lived my life as a meditation? Could I, could I live with that degree of presence and awareness to where I feel connected like that all the time? And if I can, that means that the number of people around me is irrelevant. Right? I mean, I'm sure you've had the experience like many of us.
[00:14:26] Luke Storey: You go out in nature and you're just in awe of the expanse of God's creation. Mm-hmm. And then you, you could be out in the middle of nowhere by yourself, but you don't feel lonely. Why? 'Cause you're connected to something greater. You're connected to the whole.
[00:14:37] Steven Pressfield: Mm.
[00:14:38] Luke Storey: You don't need a bunch of people around.
[00:14:40] Luke Storey: And then when people are around, because you have that awareness, you can connect with them in a more intimate and genuine way. Ah. Now what
[00:14:49] Steven Pressfield: did you mean by, like, loneliness? I mean, I've thought the, like... You know, I've been thinking about this bit, you know, s- coming here, and, uh, I thought, you know, that, uh, in my struggles, I'm, I could never relate it back to, like, being [00:15:05] lonely, you know?
[00:15:06] Steven Pressfield: It was other stuff other than that. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about what- What, what does it, what is that, wh- when you say loneliness, a horse called Lonesome, what is- Yeah, yeah ... and w- what, what does that, what does that mean o- other than being, uh, alienated from everything and from all that is? Yeah. But is it people?
[00:15:24] Steven Pressfield: Is it, what is
[00:15:24] Luke Storey: it? Well, there's two categories to it as I see it now, having spent a lot of time diving into this and exploring it from all angles. There's relational loneliness, where you just flat out don't have people with whom you're really connected in your life. Mm-hmm. You don't have people that trust you, that you trust, that you can rely upon.
[00:15:44] Luke Storey: There's a lack of intimacy, love, touch, support. Y- you're just unable to connect in a physical way, so that's, like, relational isolation- Mm-hmm ... separation. Mm-hmm. But then there's the existential separation and loneliness, which is, like, I don't feel connected to planet Earth. Mm. I don't... I feel [00:16:05] separate from nature.
[00:16:05] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. I, I, I try to pray and I feel like no one's listening. I, I, I feel- Uh-huh ... like God is a distant idea or something that they tried to indoctrinate me with in church as a kid or- Uh-huh ... whatever, whatever the story is, right? The interesting thing about it, kind of going back to that meditation piece, is that I've found in my life that that particular longing is actually primarily fulfilled by my relationship with God and just being spiritually centered and grounded and, and opening my awareness to what's really going on and moving outside of what the intellect thinks about life and people and me and all of that.
[00:16:46] Luke Storey: Like, getting out of mind, getting out of the addictive emotions and actually becoming liberated and awakened, right? Mm. When I can really focus on that, then I find the relational connection is kind of easy.
[00:17:00] Steven Pressfield: Ah.
[00:17:01] Luke Storey: And I resonate with people who are on the same wavelength, and so [00:17:05] there's a capacity for deeper intimacy and connection.
[00:17:07] Luke Storey: Mm. So that's kind of how I've sorted it out is, is more the, the broad existential separation and then the interpersonal relationships, but they're, they're related. Because if I don't have the connection to all that is- There's a certain distance or veil in my interpersonal relationships where I can't really get real, and I don't attract and invite people into my life that have the capacity to get real.
[00:17:33] Luke Storey: Mm. So it's like the more spiritually grounded, centered, awakened I am, my... It's like the bandwidth of my relationships gets much more narrow, and I value those relationships, and I'm really only willing to put energy into relationships that are trustworthy and high integrity- Mm-hmm ... and full of love and acceptance and understanding so that it's not a quantitative...
[00:18:01] Luke Storey: It's not quantitative, it's qualitative. Like, I don't need [00:18:05] 100 so-so friends. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I need two or three ride or die friends.
[00:18:09] Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
[00:18:10] Luke Storey: Right? Uh-huh. So interestingly enough, I feel less lonely in my life now than I ever have, and I see people less than I ever have. Uh-huh. I mean, I see my wife every day, but- Is that the connection to all that is that- Yeah
[00:18:26] Luke Storey: you're talking about? Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm less- Uh-huh ... social, less extroverted. I don't go out a lot. I'm actually uncomfortable around large groups of people now- Mm ... when that's, I mean, that's where I used to thrive. Uh-huh. Just, I mean, I was like the life of the party.
[00:18:39] Steven Pressfield: Uh.
[00:18:40] Luke Storey: And now I'm like- What do you think has changed?
[00:18:41] Luke Storey: What made that different? I think I'm interested in, I'm interested in intimacy. You know, so if I go to a dinner party and there's a lot of small talk 'cause there's too many people- Uh-huh ... then it, it's kind of not supportive of more depth. I don't find that interesting. Uh-huh. I'd rather be somewhere with two or three people and we can have a real conversation.
[00:19:03] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. Which is one of the [00:19:05] reasons that I do what I do. I sit here and talk to people like you- Uh-huh ...
[00:19:07] Steven Pressfield: and
[00:19:08] Luke Storey: hopefully have really deep, open, honest, connected conversations. Uh-huh. You
[00:19:13] Steven Pressfield: know? I mean, I've sometimes felt like this material plane that we're on- Is a sort of a purgatory- Totally ... where, where- Same here, dude
[00:19:26] Steven Pressfield: where loneliness or whatever you wanna call it- Yeah ... alienation or whatever, inability to connect is sort of the default mode that we're dropped in in this- Yeah ... in this place, and our assignment, you know, or is to somehow break out of that. Yes. Um, uh, and, uh, I'm, I'm still struggling with that in, in many, many ways, you know?
[00:19:51] Luke Storey: Yeah.
[00:19:52] Steven Pressfield: Uh-
[00:19:52] Luke Storey: Yeah.
[00:19:53] Steven Pressfield: Me too. Yeah.
[00:19:54] Luke Storey: Me too. I mean, that's the thing, like, I, I sent, uh... And you, you gave me a beautiful endorsement for my book, which is really, I mean, so helpful. I thank you for that, really. My pleasure. I, I s- I sent it to [00:20:05] a friend a, a couple days ago, and, uh, we were talking about, you know, the, the aspect of creativity.
[00:20:13] Luke Storey: When you're do- when you're doing something creative that you're doing by yourself, there's a certain irony in that, right? So you're a writer. I mean, you've written a number of books, and they're deep books and successful books. It's, you know, what you do for real. It's funny to do something that's not really collaborative, you know?
[00:20:31] Luke Storey: It's like you're writing about this, this sense of separation, loneliness, et cetera, and in the process of doing so is, like, the loneliest thing you could ever choose to do.
[00:20:41] Steven Pressfield: Hmm.
[00:20:42] Luke Storey: Right? And yet, at least to me, it's not lonely at
[00:20:44] Steven Pressfield: all.
[00:20:45] Luke Storey: Okay. Tell me- And- ...
[00:20:46] Steven Pressfield: about that. That's one thing I wanted to ask- Um ... ask you. Um, number one, uh, is, well, particularly if you're writing fiction, you're with your characters, you know?
[00:20:55] Steven Pressfield: Oh. And your characters are, are, you know, you love them, right? And they're all, even though you might not be aware of this, they're all aspects of you in some way, right? [00:21:05] They're all a kind of a constellation of... Including the villains, you know, and particularly the villains in a lot of sense. So I always feel like I'm less alone when I'm in a room, you know, by myself working on something.
[00:21:18] Steven Pressfield: Um, like, uh, I used to have my, my office before my house burned down. I used to, my desk faced a wall, even though we were kind of on the ocean, and people would say to me, "Well, why don't you look out on the ocean?" You know? And I said, uh, "Because I'm in my head," you know? Oh. That's... So I don't wanna look out on anything like that.
[00:21:40] Steven Pressfield: I could be in a phone booth somewhere. So for me, definitely it's not. It, it's, in fact, collaborative s- work is, like, more isolated to me- Really? ... than, you know, because then I have to relate to whoever I'm working with, you know. Right. You know, or whatever, um, which is- Right ... um, but yeah, so- Goi- going back to the- So, co- that writing alone for [00:22:05] me was sort of my answer to any kind of loneliness.
[00:22:08] Steven Pressfield: That was the thing that, you know, that, that ca- sort of- Helped me out of this kind of purgatory feeling.
[00:22:16] Luke Storey: That's so- You know? ... interesting. Wow. I was certain- ... you were gonna go, "Yeah, man. I know what it's like. You know, it's, it's real dark and lonely in there." That's really interesting.
[00:22:25] Steven Pressfield: And the other thing, while we're on this-
[00:22:27] Luke Storey: Yeah
[00:22:27] Steven Pressfield: is, um, I'm definitely a believer in, in the muse, you know? In the goddess, and that there is some... So that when you're in that space, you're not alone because, you know, it's not like you see another spectral form there, but stuff is coming to you, and you're... So you do feel, at least I do, connected in that sense.
[00:22:52] Steven Pressfield: Um-
[00:22:52] Luke Storey: Yeah, that's a really good point. You know, I think I relate to that in the process of drafting. Uh-huh. Just- Yeah, definitely. Right. Yeah ... super fun. Yeah. 'Cause you're just going, "Who's doing this?" Uh-huh. It's like- [00:23:05] Yeah ... you know, you bang out a couple pages- Yeah ... look back at it, and you go, "What the hell?
[00:23:08] Luke Storey: Where did that come from?" Yeah, yeah. Amazing, you know? Yeah. Um, it's, I think the isolating part for me is more in the editing. It's like the grind. It's, it's like the l- mechanics of it, of just what fits, what doesn't. Hmm. You're having to make decisions. That part of it to me is much more intellectually driven, where the just- Yeah
[00:23:29] Luke Storey: you know? It's
[00:23:29] Steven Pressfield: right-brain, left-brain, I think. Yeah. Yeah, the, the sh-
[00:23:31] Luke Storey: the, the f- the shitty first draft part for me is like, "Whoa- ... I'm in a flow state, and these ideas- Uh-huh ... are coming in. Some are good, some aren't. I don't care. I just put it all down."
[00:23:39] Steven Pressfield: Huh.
[00:23:40] Luke Storey: That I, I can relate to feeling connected to, to the muse.
[00:23:43] Luke Storey: Huh. There's, there's a, you know, there's the unseen hand that's kind of working through you, and when you tap into that, that's a really good feeling. And it, it, it's not isolating. Yeah, that's true.
[00:23:53] Steven Pressfield: And yet, we were talking before, before we got on, uh, you said you, you... This experience of writing the book made you say, "I don't ever wanna do this again."
[00:24:02] Steven Pressfield: Do you still absolutely feel like that?
[00:24:04] Luke Storey: I mean, it's [00:24:05] hard to imagine- Ah ... putting myself through that- Yeah ... level of, ah, stress. It's stressful for me. Ah. I mean, also because I'm still doing all of this, you know? Yeah. I, I think if, if I was a author- Uh-huh ... and that was my gig, it would probably have been less cumbersome, uh, and, and less pressurized.
[00:24:26] Luke Storey: But, you know, I'm, you know, my wife doesn't work. I'm- ... hold, I'm holding it down, you know? Uh-huh. Um, so- Uh-huh ... yeah, if I was in- independently wealthy or I was- Uh-huh ... getting massive advances or selling tons of books, and I was able to support myself and pay for our lifestyle, uh, just writing, I feel like I'd be the guy with, you know- Uh-huh
[00:24:45] Luke Storey: smoking a pipe- Uh-huh. ... a cup of coffee, you know- Uh-huh ... at my typewriter and settling- Uh-huh ... into that in a cabin in the woods. I have this romantic vision of, like, a writer. Um, I think it would be easier, but also- I could see myself doing it again, but I, I have a sense that, um, I wouldn't try to pack so much into one [00:25:05] book, you know, 'cause this is like kind of the, the skeleton of it is a memoir, but it's really about the, the, the teachings and the wisdom derived from a life well and hard lived.
[00:25:13] Luke Storey: Yeah. And so it's like I'm trying to cram 55 years of everything I've been through and everything I've learned that might be of value to the reader into one book, which is- Yeah, that's what I was thinking
[00:25:24] Steven Pressfield: about the book was- Yeah ... this should maybe be two or three books or something like that. Yeah. You really did kind of give yourself a hard task- 100%
[00:25:31] Steven Pressfield: to cram everything in there, you know? Maybe, uh, that was a preconception you had. Oh, a memoir's gotta be, you know, a all-encompassing thing, whereas it doesn't, you know?
[00:25:41] Luke Storey: Yeah.
[00:25:41] Steven Pressfield: Um- I think each,
[00:25:43] Luke Storey: the way it ended up, each chapter is like its own mini-book. Uh-huh, yeah. You know, there's one, there's two chapters that are all around psychedelics.
[00:25:48] Luke Storey: There's one- Uh-huh ... on childhood trauma, one on, um, you know, dysfunctional relationships, one on- Uh, yeah ... healthy relationships. Yeah. So I could have taken any one of those chapters and made it a book, which is what I realized while I'm really, you know, I really put myself against the wall on this. But I think in the future if I were to [00:26:05] do it, I would have a much more narrow niche.
[00:26:07] Luke Storey: Hmm. A much more narrow topic. Hmm. And I feel like that would make it a bit more manageable. You know? Hmm. It's like a, you just have kind of a lane you're in instead of trying to pull- Yeah, yeah ... 15 freeways into one- Yeah. ... you know, two-lane highway kinda thing. Yeah. Let's talk about the muse. Okay. Uh, okay, I was listening to, um, uh, John Fogerty on a podcast a couple days ago and just, you know, hearing about his, his journey as a musician and songwriter, and he mentioned that he put out a new album.
[00:26:37] Luke Storey: I said, oh. I went on Spotify and looked at the new album. What he, what he did is he went and re-recorded all of the Creedence songs. Uh-huh. 'Cause he had all these legal battles and stuff over his publishing. Yeah, yeah. And he didn't own it. It was just, it went on for years and years, right? So he finally found a way and he said, you know, "I'm just gonna re-record all the songs I wrote."
[00:26:54] Luke Storey: And I was just looking at that body of work going, this is insane, the songs that guy wrote. Yeah. It's insane. If he would've written Proud Mary, it would be insane. Mm-hmm. But you, you know, you [00:27:05] got 20 songs of that caliber, and it was interesting to me 'cause I looked at it and I said, "Well, why isn't he, why isn't he putting out a new album of songs that good?"
[00:27:13] Luke Storey: Mm-hmm. 'Cause it's not up to him.
[00:27:16] Steven Pressfield: Hmm.
[00:27:16] Luke Storey: Right? It's like I sit down and I play guitar. I sit down, every three years there's something I, you know, a little chord progression I come up with. I go, "Shit, that's good. I'm gonna record that and save that for something." I never do anything with it. Hmm. But there's 150 things I play that I go, "Eh," you know?
[00:27:33] Luke Storey: Mm-hmm. So a guy like Keith Richards, Paul McCartney, John Fogerty, it's like they're given this little window of opportunity that no one can really explain where these brilliant creative ideas come through, and then it's like the faucet shuts off.
[00:27:49] Steven Pressfield: Yeah, that is a very scary- Right? ... thought, you know? And I always, you know, knock wood, the faucet hasn't turned off yet for me.
[00:27:59] Steven Pressfield: Um, but I don't know what, uh... You know, that'd be a tough one. [00:28:05] That's like being, you know, Brett Favre and having to retire or something like that. And, uh, yeah, th- that's, I, I don't know what to, what to make of that. It's a really scary thing that, uh, you know, why would that happen? Uh, hopefully it would never happen.
[00:28:20] Steven Pressfield: But, um, so far i- it hasn't happened for me, thank goodness, you know? I wouldn't know what to do, you know?
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[00:30:05] Luke Storey: Do you ever get stuck? Were you, were, do, you know, you write a lot about resistance, right? The procrastination, self-doubt, laziness-
[00:30:14] Steven Pressfield: No, I- ... perfectionism ... I don't. I don't. Because, um, if I have an idea for a book, um, I won't start it until I really have the sort of the whole concept in mind, where I know that...
[00:30:28] Steven Pressfield: 'Cause it's gonna be, if it's a novel, it's two years, two and a half years with no paycheck, you know? You're, you're totally on the come, betting on the end of it. And so I have to s- make up my mind, "Okay, this is, this idea is worth it to me. I think it's gonna be interesting." And once, once you're committed to that, you know, you just can't stop.
[00:30:48] Steven Pressfield: You know, it's like sailing towards Tahiti, right? We're not gonna stop. We gotta get to the other, other side. So, and, and I, I don't wanna jinx myself by saying this, but when, when I do hit any kind of a wall, I just sorta say, "If you're a pro, you guys just gotta get through it somehow," you know? [00:31:05] It's i- unacceptable to let, to let this thing overcome you.
[00:31:09] Steven Pressfield: So yeah, no, I, I, I've not been blocked. Once, I was blocked for years before I even started, but once I started, I've been able to keep going. Uh, what, what age were you when you wrote your first book? The first book that got published was when I was 52, but I started when I was, like, 23.
[00:31:32] Luke Storey: Wow. Yeah. Wow, 52. So I'm 55 right now.
[00:31:36] Luke Storey: Ah.
[00:31:36] Steven Pressfield: That's
[00:31:37] Luke Storey: very encouraging. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're just a kid, you know? You got your whole life ahead of you. You know, noth- And what were you doing for work in the years between starting writing and finally getting published at 52?
[00:31:49] Steven Pressfield: I did a bunch of, you know, kind of, uh... I worked in the oil fields, I drove tractor-trailers, I picked f- fruit as a migrant laborer, but I also did sort of straight middle-class things.
[00:32:01] Steven Pressfield: I worked for an ad agency at, you know, different [00:32:05] times, you know, as a copywriter. And then I had about a 10-year career as kind of a B-level screenwriter before, uh, before I actually wrote the first book. Got it. So, um-
[00:32:19] Luke Storey: Yeah What, and what has been your mo- I mean, I know you mostly from The War of Art- Uh-huh
[00:32:24] Luke Storey: which is a seminal classic- Uh-huh ... for anyone that is endeavoring to do anything creative. I think it's an absolute must-read, like, top five books. You're not... You, you can't live without it kind of thing.
[00:32:35] Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
[00:32:35] Luke Storey: Is that helpful to me? Uh, what has been commercially your more s- most successful book?
[00:32:41] Steven Pressfield: Th- that, The War of Art, and a novel, Gates of Fire, that was about the, uh, 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.
[00:32:49] Steven Pressfield: Really? Uh, yeah. And it's, the two of them have been the most, the most successful.
[00:32:53] Luke Storey: And, and you wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance, right? Yeah. Wrote,
[00:32:56] Steven Pressfield: yeah.
[00:32:57] Luke Storey: And what, what was the process of that becoming a movie? How does that even work?
[00:33:02] Steven Pressfield: Ah. It was, uh, one of those deals [00:33:05] where... Because I, I'd had, like, a 10-year screenwriting career above that, so I'd written, like, 33, 34 screenplays.
[00:33:12] Steven Pressfield: S- five or six of them actually got made. Terrible movies, so I won't tell you any of the titles- ... that they are. Nothing, nothing good. But, um, finally, like, all the bad luck and all the struggles sort of, you know, finally the penny came up heads. And, um, like, I had, uh, um, my, my publisher, my editor, was a guy named Larry Hughes, and, like, days after he bought the book, he was on an airplane sitting next to Jake Eberts, who's the producer who did, uh, Gandhi, Chariots of Fire, The Mission.
[00:33:49] Steven Pressfield: Like, he had, like, four Best Picture Oscars. They're sitting on a plane by accident, and Larry says- Accident ... to Jake, "Here, read this." And, like, two days later he said, you know, "I wanna make..." And he, Jake Eberts, was partners with Robert [00:34:05] Redford in the Sundance catalog. So the next thing they, I knew Robert Redford was on board to direct it.
[00:34:12] Steven Pressfield: So it was, like, just luck finally, you know- Finally all came together on that one.
[00:34:18] Luke Storey: Beautiful.
[00:34:19] Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
[00:34:19] Luke Storey: And were you pleased with the end result? No.
[00:34:25] Steven Pressfield: You know, you can, you can never complain. I always say that once you sign the contract and cash the check, you gotta keep your mouth shut, so, uh, but I, I, uh, you know, I just, I...
[00:34:35] Steven Pressfield: You have to be grateful that anything gets made, you know?
[00:34:38] Luke Storey: Yeah, yeah. Um, so for people listening, you know, one thing I'd like people to walk away with from this conversation is f- to speak to unidentified purpose, you know, the underground river, right? Mm. It's like there's, I think many of us, even me in my life now, I mean, I'm, you know, leaning into the, this book obviously, but still, I mean, I feel like I go through phases where I've found what I'm meant to be doing with my [00:35:05] life.
[00:35:05] Luke Storey: Mm-hmm. Do that for some time, achieve some level of success- Mm-hmm ... or in some cases not at all. And then it seems like every decade or so, I reach a point where I'm like, "Hmm, I don't... You know, I think maybe I'm not really utilizing my full potential." Uh-huh. You know? And I mean, I meet people all the time because I'm talking to incredible people like you on this podcast.
[00:35:26] Luke Storey: When I'm out in the world, uh, people say, "Oh, I wish, you know, I could do this. I wish I could do that." Like you and all these people you talk to, they seem to have found their calling. They're doing what they're, you know, here in this purgatorial world- Mm-hmm ... to do. And I'm working, you know, at Walmart or whatever I'm doing.
[00:35:41] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. You know, I'm, I'm working a gig just to make money. But many people, I think, struggle to find a way to support themselves financially doing something, uh, i- in which they're skilled and find enjoyment. You know, people oftentimes have, um, maybe a passion for something, but they don't necessarily have the competence or talent to see it to [00:36:05] fruition.
[00:36:06] Luke Storey: And then you see people that are really talented but perhaps don't have the drive- Mm ... and the motivation, you know? Yeah. And then that sweet spot, the dream, is when you have both ingredients there. You're passionate about something, and you have the talent that is marketable, you know, in whatever you're trying to do.
[00:36:22] Luke Storey: So what do you think prevents us, uh, kind of blinds many of us from identifying what it is that we're meant to be doing here on the planet? Ah, that's a g- that's a hell of a question. I mean- Yeah, I mean, I don't know if there's one answer, but what's been your experience of that?
[00:36:37] Steven Pressfield: I, uh... First of all, I do believe, and with no proof, that, uh, that we all do have a calling, and some of us have multiple callings.
[00:36:47] Steven Pressfield: But there certainly is some... Like y- you mentioned underground river. I really believe there is kind of an underground river flowing inside all of us. But the equal and opposite force is what I call Resistance with a capital R. And Resistance is entire- [00:37:05] charge is to stop us. It's an u- utterly negative, evil, bad news, um, diabolical force.
[00:37:14] Steven Pressfield: And I think that... And it will undermine our intention. It will sort of cloud our mind so that we can't feel that calling, or if we do feel it, it will kind of immediately negate it in the sense of who do you think you are to take up this, you know, to do such and such a thing? It's been done a million times before by other people way better than you're ever gonna do it.
[00:37:38] Steven Pressfield: You don't have the education. You don't have the discipline. You don't have bumpity, bumpity, bumpity, bump, bump. You
[00:37:43] Luke Storey: just read the inside of my brain.
[00:37:45] Steven Pressfield: It's the inside of everybody's brain and my brain, too. And I certainly believe that addiction is kind of a parallel universe to that, um, which we can talk about more if, if you want to.
[00:37:57] Steven Pressfield: And the other thing that, uh, uh, that res- resistance will do to us is it'll try to distract us 'cause it, its aim is to [00:38:05] stop us from finding our calling and then to stop us from actually doing it. And so it'll distract us with, uh, things that are more, um, immediate gratification, right? Sort of the bottom line is if you- our, our real calling is gonna be a delayed gratification for sure, and any sort of shadow calling that we might go into is gonna be instant gratification to distract us.
[00:38:30] Steven Pressfield: If it's a drug, if it's sex, if it's whatever, you know, the surfing the web or whatever it is. Yeah. These devices. Um, and the other weird part of the thing is that nobody teaches you this, you know? Nobody tells you this as a four-year-old kid or a 12-year-old kid to be wary of this devil that's out there.
[00:38:48] Steven Pressfield: Um, and so many people go through their entire lives, I would say 90%, without even the belief that there is a calling, let alone how to find it. That, that to me is kind of what's, what stops so many people. Another thing I talk about sometimes is the idea of a... [00:39:05] This is sort of borderline addiction thing, is that many of us will, uh, have a shadow calling or a shadow career, which is like, an example I s- I use sometimes is in the, in the movie business there is such a thing as, you know of, an entertainment lawyer.
[00:39:26] Steven Pressfield: Entertainment lawyers are the guys that make the deals for directors, actors, writers, so on and so forth, producers. And I've found s- that many, many, many of these men and women are really aspiring to be writers or directors or producers. They really wanna be in the creative thing, but something told them, their father or, or just their own selves You're gonna starve to death if you do that.
[00:39:52] Steven Pressfield: So get a career, go to law school, do that sort of thing. So they wind up being in a career that's sort of adjacent to the career they really want, and but it's not what they really want. And to, and it takes [00:40:05] real courage to m- and i- almost every time that I've seen a lawyer or a doctor try to write, they're wonderful right out of the gate.
[00:40:13] Steven Pressfield: Really? You know? And- Wow ... so the ta- the talent was just there. It just, you know, was right there, you know? Um, so addiction to me is kind of a shadow, a shadow career. And you, you know, I've never really been an addict or anything except for running away from my calling. But, um, which is a full-time a- addiction by itself.
[00:40:36] Steven Pressfield: But an addiction to me, a lot of times, is kind of a shadow version of the, of the art that, you know? And, and you certainly could talk to this, Luke, you know? Yeah, yeah. That the addiction becomes kind of a work of art in itself. It's colorful, it's dramatic, it's got, you know, uh, you know, ups and downs and crazy characters and, you know, it's, it's like a novel, right?
[00:41:00] Steven Pressfield: But it's not the novel that the person really should've written or the [00:41:05] movie they really should've made. Right.
[00:41:06] Luke Storey: And, um, so- It's, and, and it is also an addiction, you know, in that framework y- you think you're writing the script, but you're actually just a player. You know, the addiction itself is the one that really has the force behind it and the- Yeah
[00:41:23] Luke Storey: inertia. It's the one that's making the decisions, and you feel like, "Oh, I'm, you know, I'm living free and dying free." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, there, no, there's something else that's kind of- Yeah ... you know, really the motor behind it is something much deeper and- Yeah ... and, you know, harder to identify.
[00:41:37] Steven Pressfield: Are you familiar with Joe Dispenza's stuff? Oh, yeah. I'm sure you are, right? Yeah, he's been on the show. I love Joe, yeah. He has a concept, right, that we're addicted. We can, we're addicted to a, a certain, um, chemical i- production inside our own bodies of depression or despair or, you know, all negative stuff, right?
[00:41:56] Steven Pressfield: That we're very comfortable in this, in this place, and I'm fighting that always myself, too. Um- How do, how do you identify that with yourself? [00:42:05] You know, it's- How does that play out? Uh, it's very easy to me. Like, what, what did I read the other day? It was for a quote from Georgia O'Keefe, and she said, um, "I have been terrified every minute of my life, but I've never given in to it."
[00:42:23] Steven Pressfield: You know? And I can certainly relate to the first part of that , you know? That, um- I, I can really go down, uh, roads of anxiety and fear and it's all that sort of stuff, uh, if I let myself. And my, what, what my answer to that has been to write. You know, to tell stories and to, and to put things out. That's what sort of saved me, and so that's kinda my go-to.
[00:42:49] Steven Pressfield: Uh, it's in place of an addiction. The addiction is to that negative stuff, you know? Yeah. So I'm not sure if that answers what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. But that's what it is. Like, right now, as a kind of a mass addiction to the United States [00:43:05] is this crazy political stuff- Yeah ... that, that we're in now, you know?
[00:43:09] Steven Pressfield: Yeah. And we've been in for a while, and it's so, people g- it's so easy to become addicted to that, right? To fall into that. Like, oh, God, what's going... You know? Um, and, you know, that's, again, that's that sort of purgatory thing I'm talking about. You can become addicted to this kind of purgatory place that we are here in.
[00:43:32] Steven Pressfield: Yeah. And try- and loneliness, as you would say. Oh, d- Or the lack of connection to the, to, to our higher self or to our deeper, uh, meaning.
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[00:45:04] Luke Storey: If you [00:45:05] wanna make your meals pay you back in a real nutrition, MassZymes is the way to do it. Again, hit up bi optimizers.com/luke. I wonder if it's, uh, I don't really wonder. I suspect highly that You know, addiction to the drama of the external world- Yeah ... politics and whatnot. Drama, that's the word. Right?
[00:45:26] Luke Storey: It's, it's a really, uh, sort of covert way to avoid facing the internal drama. It's like- Exactly ... we tend to externalize- Yeah ... conflict a- about things over which we have zero control. That's what I found in myself. I'm scrolling on Twitter, "Ah, these bastards." Like, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like I'm putting my life force and energy into something that, that I have 0% chance of impacting whatsoever.
[00:45:57] Luke Storey: So it seems the game to me is learning how to identify that tendency and [00:46:05] to get honest with myself about the fact that my perception of the world is actually creating my world.
[00:46:11] Steven Pressfield: Mm.
[00:46:12] Luke Storey: And I really noticed this the beginning of the COVID thing. Um, I actually went to a Joe Dispenza retreat, now that you mention it.
[00:46:18] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. That's funny, in Florida. And so I was in there for a week, and, you know, so I d- I wasn't using my phone at all, and this is, like, peak COVID craziness, right? And I realized nothing had really changed in my life subjectively, right? I was doing the same stuff, feeling the same way, just as happy as I could ever be, and the only difference was I wasn't tapping into the drama of the external world.
[00:46:44] Luke Storey: Mm-hmm. The external world hadn't changed at all during that week, but I changed- Uh-huh ... because I just- Yeah. Right? I put my attention within and somewhere else, in the people in the room, in the experience, and I was really connected to everyone, and having a great time with my wife, and my dad was there with us.
[00:46:58] Luke Storey: And- Mm ... and when I came out of that and got back on my phone, it was like, "Oh, my God." Ah. "The world is terrible." Uh-huh. The [00:47:05] world hadn't changed. Yeah. I had changed for a week. But- Were you able to kind of hang on to that? A bit, yeah. Uh-huh. A bit, and not as much as I would've liked to, and this is something I s- I still work on that, right?
[00:47:14] Luke Storey: I still get caught up in the world out there because it's a really good distraction from facing what I need to face in my real 3D, you know- Yeah ... Luke Story life. Yeah. And what do you need to face? Well, I think right now what I'm up against is now that I've, like, almost finished this book- Ah ... I'm experiencing a lot of fear of rejection.
[00:47:42] Luke Storey: Ah. Uh, fear of failure. Um, you know, re- as I was reaching out- How about fear of success? You know, that's probably the biggest one, but the hardest one to see. Mm. Right? It's like, okay, so w- I have a New York Times bestseller. I sell 10 million copies of this book. Then what's gonna be required of me In terms of how I'm gonna need to [00:48:05] perform and able to answer that call- Uh
[00:48:07] Luke Storey: whatever that call is. So there definitely is a fear of success, but it's like, yeah, it's like fear of judgment, failure. Even when I reached out to you, "Hey, could you write me an endorsement?" Uh-huh. I mean, I labor- I sent out a bunch of them, you know, to anyone I've remotely know that might be supportive in that way, and I was seeing, like, it's so difficult to just ask someone for help.
[00:48:30] Luke Storey: Mm. It's like they're gonna either ghost you and just ignore you. They're gonna say no. If they, if they say yes, it feels like a miracle. You know? When it's like, when people ask me for favors like that, I mean, I really go out of my way- Uh-huh, yeah ... to do it. I, I feel so good. If you called me and said, "Hey, Luke, I need help s- you know, supporting my book.
[00:48:50] Luke Storey: I know I was just on your podcast. Can I come back on it?" I'd be like, "Hell yeah, Steve. Mm. Let's do it." You know? Mm. It makes me feel good.
[00:48:56] Steven Pressfield: Mm.
[00:48:56] Luke Storey: But I forget that other people like to help people, too. Yeah. And that giving- Which they do ... yeah, and giving someone else the opportunity- Yeah ... to do a service is [00:49:05] actually- So hard to do
[00:49:05] Luke Storey: a gift to them. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. So I think that's one thing that I'm, you know, facing right at this moment, is just that the ego saying, you know, y- you're not smart enough. You don't deserve to have a successful book. No one's gonna take this seriously. You- maybe you did a shitty job. It's not as good as you hoped it would be, that kind of stuff.
[00:49:27] Luke Storey: Mm-hmm. You know? So it's much easier for me to go on Twitter and, like, not think about- Uh ... any of that and think about, oh, the goddamn president, right? You know? Yeah. It's like, okay- Yeah ... what about the things that I actually can control, which is, you know, identifying those untrue things that I tell myself, and how can I start to pierce those and discard them- Mm
[00:49:47] Luke Storey: and live in- Mm ... actual reality, which is like, it's a beautiful world, and I help a lot of people. Yeah. And a lot of people help me. Yeah. And also, it doesn't really matter what happens with my book. It's not about the result. It's about the fact that I actually disciplined myself and had [00:50:05] the balls to do
[00:50:05] Steven Pressfield: it.
[00:50:06] Steven Pressfield: Which is exactly right. You know, and there's a thing, we all have this thing, it's so hard to make yourself believe this, of like, what will it be like when this happens? Like, let's say your book is a hit, right? You sell whatever. Will I then be, meaning you, will I then be something I've always wanted to be?
[00:50:27] Steven Pressfield: And st- and, and of course, you're not, you know? Yeah. That thing is already here right now, if you can identify with it. And, uh, and then the, the other thing is that, um, there really should be another book or the next thing that you should be in, that we all should be into right away, you know? But it's so, it's so hard to not attach yourself to an outcome of that thing.
[00:50:51] Steven Pressfield: You know, like my book, The Arcadian, I'm thinking- You know, okay, is this gonna be, you know, are people gonna read it? Whatever they are. But already I've finished another book right after this. It's, it's the, the next one is done. Are you serious? It's after this. [00:51:05] Yeah, the same character. Dude, you're a machine.
[00:51:06] Steven Pressfield: I'm doing that. But that is the way, um, you have to... Like, I think you, when you see an actor on Jimmy Kimmel or something like that, like Matt Damon, and he's just pr- hyping a movie that he did, he's already three movies down the road. You know? He's going, right? Uh-huh. Yeah. They've done another and another, and, and beyond that he's got all other kinds of stuff.
[00:51:28] Steven Pressfield: So there's sort of a flow. I'm a, I'm a big believer in, um, a body of work, that we're really here to do a body of work, and not to put too much hope or whatever on any one particular thing. You know? Is this gonna... Like, the worst thing I think any creative person can do is when they finish, and this applies to what you, where place you are right now, Luke, is to launch a, a, whatever it is, a play, a screenplay, a movie, whatever it is, and then sort of sit back and kinda wait for a response.
[00:52:03] Steven Pressfield: Worst thing in the world, [00:52:05] because now you're completely in your ego. And w- and what you really need to do, I think, not you, any of us, all of us, is hit the next one, the next one, the next one, and, and f- and, and move that body of work forward, which is really what it's about. It's really this long process, not just, you know, number one, number two, number three.
[00:52:25] Steven Pressfield: Um, but it's so hard to, to actually do that, um, to not look at how the last one did, you know? But again, if we're in this purgatory and we're trying to be our higher illumined selves, that's kind of the, the discipline or the training that we sort of have to do for ourselves, if we
[00:52:49] Luke Storey: can do it. That's a really good insight.
[00:52:51] Luke Storey: I've never thought about that. You know, in terms of this podcast, I think we're up to 660, 70-something conversations. Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. Think about that. And these are all two, three hours long. I mean- Yeah ... it's like, I don't know how [00:53:05] many hours that is. It's a lot of damn hours. But I've... It's funny that you, you know, the way you just framed that, I've never thought about it.
[00:53:11] Luke Storey: I just on to the next one, on to the next one, on to the ne- Mm ... I just keep going. Mm. I don't track the downloads of which guests. Uh-huh. You know? I don't even know how to work the analytics. I just- Uh-huh ... keep booking them. Jared sets up the stuff. I sit down, I have a conversation. Boom. Next. Even people ask me, "Oh, what, you know, uh, what, what's your latest podcast?"
[00:53:29] Luke Storey: I go, "I have no idea." Like I don't, I don't even know which one comes out what week unless I see it on social media- Uh-huh ... or something, you know? So I've been able to apply that. Like I, in other words, I don't have an attachment to outcomes-
[00:53:40] Steven Pressfield: Mm ...
[00:53:40] Luke Storey: with this. I just keep- I- ... charging ahead. I just keep doing it.
[00:53:44] Luke Storey: There's like a certain momentum to it, right? Yeah. And it's, um, comfortable and relatively easy and enjoyable for me to do. But I never thought about that with something that is like a, one single piece of work that takes a number of years to put together. This takes me as long as the conversation takes- Yeah
[00:54:04] Luke Storey: and it's over, right? [00:54:05] Yeah. So it's interesting to, to say that. Yeah. Uh, that's a good way to think about it. But what you just said, Luke,
[00:54:08] Steven Pressfield: about you were talking to yourself sort of you did the work on the book, you did the best you could, you, you know, you didn't compromise, et cetera, et cetera. You put it out there.
[00:54:18] Steven Pressfield: That's, I mean, ideally that should be, we should be able to say to ourselves, "Okay, that's enough. That's what we did." Yes. "That's all we can do. Now it's out there. It's all in the lap of the gods." It's timing. You know, a lot of times, I'm sure we, you know this from fashion, from everything else, the things that succeed the most are not necessarily the best, or they succeed for the wrong reasons.
[00:54:42] Steven Pressfield: Right. You know? And the things that are really great, everybody just blows off and gets, doesn't get it at all. So, but it's so hard to detach yourself from that, you know? Detachment from the outcome is a real hard one. Oh, man. But that's kind of what we're here to learn, if you ask me. Yeah. But so hard to learn.
[00:55:02] Luke Storey: I used to have a teacher, uh, that would tell me [00:55:05] when I'd be hung up on something and nervous about the ways, you know, the outcome of something, he'd say, "Luke, you're not in the results business."
[00:55:11] Steven Pressfield: Ah. "
[00:55:12] Luke Storey: That's God's business. Stay in your own business." Yeah. "Just do the work." Yeah. And, you know- Yeah ... it's easier said than done.
[00:55:19] Steven Pressfield: Yeah. But- Like in the Bhagavad Gita they say, "You're entitled to the labor but not to the fruits of your labor." Really? Yeah. That's cool. That's what Krishna tells Arjuna, you know? Really? Yeah.
[00:55:29] Luke Storey: That's
[00:55:29] Steven Pressfield: really neat. You're not entitled to the fruits of your labor.
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[00:57:17] Luke Storey: It's about protecting the field in which you live and thrive. Again, that link is lukestory.com/LeelaQ, and the code is Luke ten. So in terms of letting go of, uh, you know, attachments to outcomes, have you found that to be more difficult on the heels of an outcome that was wildly successful? You know, you're writing subsequent books after you've had a couple really massive hit books that have made you kind of a household name in the literary world.
[00:57:49] Luke Storey: Is it any harder when you feel like you have to follow that up with something that surpasses it
[00:57:55] Steven Pressfield: or at least meets it? You know, in all, in all honesty, Luke, like I've never really had that kind of success. Like with The War of Art or Gates of Fire, they're my two biggest [00:58:05] books Yeah ... it took a long time, took years for them to sort of find an audience and to percolate.
[00:58:10] Steven Pressfield: Oh, interesting. So there never was a moment for me ever where I like, "Oh, it's out there and it's a hit." No. So I don't know how I would handle that if it happened, but I, I think I would just, I, I would be pretty good about it, I think. Uh, that, uh, on to the next one, you know? Uh-huh. I'm, I'm a believer that, like, when you finish book number one, you should be 90 pages into book number two.
[00:58:32] Steven Pressfield: Holy shit. And, and- I can't imagine. You know?
[00:58:35] Luke Storey: I can't imagine that.
[00:58:37] Steven Pressfield: I'm like, I'm, I don't... I'll never get through this. And I'll tell you a little story. I've told this before, but w- the first book that I ever finished, which never got published, years and years ago, I had a, um, a friend and a mentor, a fellow writer who was, like, 30 years older than me that I used to have coffee with every morning and, uh, while I was working on the book.
[00:58:55] Steven Pressfield: And at, uh, at one point I finished it. You know, I had it typed, you know, and I came down to him and I said, "You know, Paul, I've, I just finished this thing today." And he, like, he never even looked up. He [00:59:05] just said, "Good for you. Start the next one today." Wow. And I, at the time, I didn't even really know what he was saying to me, but that really sunk in deep, and he's absolutely right, I think.
[00:59:17] Luke Storey: Wow, that's so interesting. And I didn't know that, that your, you know, say, The War of Art book was a slow burn, 'cause I didn't- Yeah, real slow. Yeah ... I didn't learn about it when it came out. I was one of the, you know, the latecomers to that book. I think I heard you on a podcast or something, "Oh, a book about, you know, the creative process.
[00:59:33] Luke Storey: I, I could use that." And then realized, like, how widely it was known. I mean, everyone I know knows that book and has read that book. It's, it's really, like, a staple of anyone into doing something creative. Um, but I had no idea that it wasn't just New York Times, bestseller, boom, out of the gate. Oh, yeah. No, no, no.
[00:59:52] Luke Storey: How- Yeah ... how long... That's so interesting to me. How, how long did it take before you started seeing some traction, and do you have any idea why? 10, 10
[01:00:01] Steven Pressfield: years. Really? Yeah. And two reasons: [01:00:05] Joe Rogan and Oprah. Okay. That I was on, you know, their shows, and they, you know, said some nice things, and that really kind of got it going.
[01:00:15] Steven Pressfield: So this- But otherwise it was just percolating along by word of mouth-
[01:00:18] Luke Storey: Uh-huh ...
[01:00:19] Steven Pressfield: um, and just took a long time to get rolling. So
[01:00:22] Luke Storey: you
[01:00:22] Steven Pressfield: didn't
[01:00:22] Luke Storey: come out of the gate with, like, a master marketing plan? Absolutely not. No. Okay, that's so interesting. Yeah. So that really speaks to the amplification of, of loud voices.
[01:00:32] Luke Storey: You know, there's a lot- Yeah ... of power in that. Yeah, true. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. Uh, at s- at any point were you kind of surprised when it started growing, uh, sturdier legs and really taking on a life of
[01:00:44] Steven Pressfield: its own? Yes, I am surprised in both cases, you know? Like with Gates of Fire, it was, like, maybe- Six or seven years in, I was, uh, uh, having lunch with a friend of mine who was just getting out of the Marine Corps then.
[01:00:58] Steven Pressfield: He said, "Did you know that Gates of Fire is really, like, a big thing in the Marine Corps, that everybody reads it, you know, it's a big...?" And I said, "No, I had no idea." [01:01:05] And, uh, that was sort of... That was w- how that was getting traction, you know, just by word of mouth. Do you have any
[01:01:11] Luke Storey: sort of preparatory ritual when you're sitting down to do creative work?
[01:01:18] Luke Storey: Ah. Is there a routine- Yes, I do. Yeah ... you know, a certain way you do your coffee, the lighting in the room, uh, turning off your phone? Like, what does, what does that look
[01:01:26] Steven Pressfield: like for you? Ah, that's a great question. Um, and this actually goes back to my friend who told me, "Start the next one today." His name is Paul Rink.
[01:01:33] Steven Pressfield: And, uh, he introduced me to the idea of the muse, of the goddess that inspires writers. And he typed out for me the invocation of the muse from Homer's Odyssey, translation by T.E. Lawrence, Lawrence of Arabia, typed it out. In fact, I've had it for, like, 40 years. It burned up when my house burned down. It was on a...
[01:01:57] Steven Pressfield: And so every day before I start, I say this prayer to the muse. [01:02:05] And, and, um, you know, Homer's prayer, the invocation of the muse is basically saying, "You know, goddess, here I am. I'm sitting down. Help the story, you know, live through me. Let you be- Assist me, you know? You speak. You tell the story." And so I, I do that and just try to sort of...
[01:02:25] Steven Pressfield: You know, it's like, uh, entering the dojo or something. You put your hands together, you know, and you, and you now, you bow to the sensei and that kind of thing. You're entering a kind of a sacred space, and you're kinda checking your ego at the door. And you're, you're, and, uh- Crucial ingredient right right there
[01:02:42] Steven Pressfield: Yeah. And entering in humility to sort of serve the process. So that's, that's my, that's my ritual. I don't have worry about coffee or anything like that. Is, is
[01:02:51] Luke Storey: that, uh, is that, uh, uh, is that prayer to the muse something that could be found online? Or is it something- It's,
[01:02:57] Steven Pressfield: it's actually in The War of Art. I wrote it out in the- Ah
[01:02:59] Steven Pressfield: in the book- Okay. Okay ... The War of Art.
[01:03:01] Luke Storey: Okay.
[01:03:01] Steven Pressfield: I think it's on page 110 or something like that. I need to
[01:03:03] Luke Storey: get the written copy 'cause I only have the [01:03:05] audiobook.
[01:03:05] Steven Pressfield: Ah. I'm, um- You might have to buy a copy.
[01:03:08] Luke Storey: Yeah. I'm not... Uh, yeah, yeah, don't, don't give me one for free or- Um, yeah, it's funny. You know what? One thing I've found, and I'm curious, I mean, I don't know, you're a couple years older than I am, so maybe you are not as prone to phone and device addiction.
[01:03:22] Luke Storey: But I've found since the f- the, the iPhone and the access to that information and the speed with which you can access information I don't really read the way I used to. Like, I have a really hard time focusing on reading physical books, and so I've gotten in the habit of just listening to audiobooks.
[01:03:43] Luke Storey: And every once in a while- It's
[01:03:44] Steven Pressfield: the same thing, I think, basically ...
[01:03:46] Luke Storey: I mean, I think you, you grok s- you know, obviously the information, the energy behind a piece of work by listening to it. But in the first couple decades of my spiritual journey, I mean, I would read, you know, a set of probably five different spiritual books.
[01:04:00] Luke Storey: I mean, I've read those books over and over and over and over again with a highlighter, [01:04:05] taking notes. Uh-huh. I would take a, a sentence or a paragraph, and I mean, that would be... I would spend an hour or two just really trying to contemplate and get the depth of that reading. So I was really good at reading and could be very attentive and focused.
[01:04:19] Luke Storey: And then I find now, I sit down to write a book, that even one that I'm really interested in and it's like, eh, my mind's- Uh ... kinda wandering. I really think, like, social media melted my brain, and I-
[01:04:29] Steven Pressfield: Yeah, there's probably truth to that. That I was- Well, you can't do it with an audiobook, can you? It's not the same.
[01:04:33] Steven Pressfield: You can't highlight it or-
[01:04:34] Luke Storey: Exactly.
[01:04:35] Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
[01:04:36] Luke Storey: You know, so you might hear a passage on an audiobook and you hit rewind, you know, the 15-second. Uh-huh. Oh, let me hear that again. But it's different. When you have the physical book, there's just something about the, the way that it's so tangible, it really becomes part of your experience in a different way.
[01:04:51] Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
[01:04:52] Luke Storey: You have something physical, and so, you know, people send me their books all the time, especially, you know, people coming on the podcast, and it's like, I don't have time to do it, so I listen to the audiobook so I c- you know, I get the understanding of what, [01:05:05] what the work is about. But it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a more distant relationship with the work- Yeah
[01:05:10] Luke Storey: at hand than actually reading it. Yeah, I confess I have a, a b- bit of that trouble,
[01:05:14] Steven Pressfield: too. Oh, yeah?
[01:05:15] Luke Storey: It's harder for
[01:05:15] Steven Pressfield: me to read than it was years
[01:05:17] Luke Storey: ago, yeah. What do you, do you... Is it, is that from using phones a lot in your case, like I suspect it is for me? I don't
[01:05:23] Steven Pressfield: think it is. I, I think it's something else, 'cause I don't use phones a lot.
[01:05:28] Steven Pressfield: Uh- Wise. Yeah, it's just- Wise man ... it's just, it's just harder. It's just har- it's just harder for some reason. Maybe the times. I mean, all of our attention spans are shrinking, that's for sure. Yeah. But- Yeah ... yeah. I, I do feel kind of, I feel guilty about that I'm, that I'm not as great a reader as I used to be.
[01:05:49] Luke Storey: Yeah.
[01:05:49] Steven Pressfield: I do, too. Yeah. I do, too. Like you, I would highlight passages and, you know, transcribe them and the whole thing. Yeah.
[01:05:56] Luke Storey: But, uh- It's, it becomes a really, um, a- powerful experience. You know, I think there's, there's an immediacy and an intimacy. You build a [01:06:05] relationship with that work when you have the- Yeah
[01:06:06] Luke Storey: physical book in your hand, you know? Yeah. It's, it's almost like, um, similar to, you know, you obviously remember the days of vinyl records, right? I, I grew up, you listened to records. Yeah. An album was an actual album, and there was something about the ritual. You know, it's like this big thing. I go to the record store.
[01:06:24] Luke Storey: I'd save up my allowance and, you know, come home with my Led Zeppelin record. And oh, you open up the, the fold and you read the lyrics and the- Yeah, yeah ... the, uh, the, um, you know, the credits for who played tambourine on the song- Yeah, yeah ... and who the producer was, and I would get so involved in the ecosystem- Yeah
[01:06:43] Luke Storey: of that piece of work, and then putting it on, and then when that side A is over, you gotta get up and turn it over. Oh, yeah. Right? So it's like you really had to commit to the- Yeah ... experience, and now it's just, you know, go on Spotify- ... skip, skip,
[01:06:54] Steven Pressfield: skip, shuffle,
[01:06:55] Luke Storey: shuffle, shuffle.
[01:06:56] Steven Pressfield: It's like, are you really- Which music is a little different, too.
[01:06:58] Steven Pressfield: You know, I think it was... What it was? Well, there was better music back then. Yeah. It was. For sure.
[01:07:03] Luke Storey: Objectively [01:07:05] brilliant music. Yeah.
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[01:08:35] Luke Storey: They taste delicious, too. I am obsessed with this stuff. Try it for yourself and find out at RealProvisions.com/luke. Uh, so yeah. Okay, what about, um- You were mentioning the ego as the, you know, one of the intruders in the creative process, and as you were talking about your prayer to the muse and putting yourself, you know, in a [01:09:05] reverent, humble- Mm-hmm
[01:09:05] Luke Storey: position to go in and do the work, do you see that there's kind of two sides to humility or two sides to ego in that y- you might sit down, and if your ego identified from a position of superiority, that you're gonna put kind of less care and effort into the work, and if you're on the more inferior side of it, there'll be a lot more doubt and kind of resistance in terms of, like, "Can I really do this?
[01:09:33] Luke Storey: Are people gonna like it?" That kind of thing. W- what do you see in terms of a- arriving at that place of neutrality and- Ah ... humility where- That's a great question ... where you're right-sized? You're not, you know, you're not thinking too highly of yourself or too lowly of yourself, but in, in more of a, an accurate assessment of who and where you are and where your
[01:09:51] Steven Pressfield: art is.
[01:09:52] Steven Pressfield: That's a great question. I think you were talking about it earlier, Luke, like when you're writing, writing your book, that when you were thinking, "Oh, I want this to be great. I want really, uh, I want it to, uh, advance my [01:10:05] business. I want people to buy it," da, da, da, da. That's ego, right, as I'm concerned. You know, you're, uh, self-aggrandizing, that kind of thing.
[01:10:13] Steven Pressfield: And that when you were able to switch over to, "Let me just put this down that'll, that'll help people, and let me, let me eliminate the self-censor," which is also ego, right? 'Cause you say, "Well, I don't wanna put this down 'cause I might look bad, you know, or somebody might- Yeah ... you know it, so I better not put that down."
[01:10:34] Steven Pressfield: Or the other aspect of ego is, uh, at least in writing, I'm sure it's the same in movie making or music or anything, is you feel like, "Oh, now I'm writing, you know, like Hemingway. Now I'm, now I'm putting down words like..." And you can't do that, you know? You have to somehow get beyond that, uh, to the state of, um, just letting it- Come the way it wants to come.
[01:10:58] Luke Storey: How, how do you know when a work is done? Uh- I, I feel like I could, with this book, I feel [01:11:05] I could edit it for the next five years and just keep refining and refining and refining. I wouldn't give it up if I didn't have to. I have to give it up very soon. Oh. If I didn't, I'd feel like I could go on forever.
[01:11:17] Luke Storey: And, and I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns at which I've diluted the essence- Yeah ... of the art- Uh-huh ...
[01:11:24] Steven Pressfield: by trying to make it so perfect. I think that noodling with something towards the end is a real, a form of resistance.
[01:11:31] Luke Storey: Ooh, shit. With,
[01:11:33] Steven Pressfield: with a capital R. Right? I think that's where I am. And I've seen, you know, uh, my girlfriend Diana has taken to, uh, a, has a little, she's been, um, designing books, doing the interior for people.
[01:11:48] Steven Pressfield: And she's had two occasions, the last two occasions, where her client that was the writer of the book was just into changing commas and another word here and another word there, you know? And Diana has had to like, you know, draw a boundary, you know? But so it does become a form of [01:12:05] resistance. Like I, I had an agent years ago, my first agent, and, uh, when I'd get towards the end of a book, which he never sold anything I never sold anything ever.
[01:12:15] Steven Pressfield: But he would say, "How close are you?" I'd say, "I'm, I'm really close." He said, "That's good enough." He says, "Give it to me now." So, 'cause he wanted to stop that thing. So I find that there's a point where you just know it's over, you know? It's d- and, and it's not a... Like Seth Godin, I'm sure you're familiar with him.
[01:12:33] Steven Pressfield: Yeah, yeah. He has a thing about shipping, by which he means, like, if you're designing the iPhone, there comes a moment when you gotta ship the motherfucker into the stores, right? You could keep noodling on it forever, but you, it just have to have a little discipline and say, "Okay, it, it's done. It's good enough.
[01:12:51] Steven Pressfield: Get it out there." Do you think,
[01:12:55] Luke Storey: uh, letting go of the attachment to the outcome and reminding yourself that this isn't the last work you're ever going to do helps with that? Yes, [01:13:05] very
[01:13:05] Steven Pressfield: much. There's another sort of story. You know who Cole Porter is, right? Yeah. A lot of people, I'm sure, that are listening to this won't know, but Cole Porter was a famous great songwriter- Mm-hmm
[01:13:14] Steven Pressfield: you know, from the '30s, I guess the '20s and the '30s, and he used to do a lot of, uh, songs for movies. And there's a story that, uh, one day he was in the MGM cafeteria or wherever the hell it was, and somebody... He had just had a song rejected from a movie, and somebody came in, "Oh, I'm so sorry, Cole," you know.
[01:13:32] Steven Pressfield: "How do you feel about that?" And he said, "I got a million of them." He says, "Another trolley coming down the track all the time." So I think that's a way also to look at it. You know, when it's time to ship something, it, it's a, it's a, it's a sign of being a professional that you're willing to do it, you know?
[01:13:50] Steven Pressfield: Put it in the envelope, send it off, and y- move on to the next one.
[01:13:54] Luke Storey: What's your- In terms of writing books, what, what's your definition of commercial success? You know, is the, is New York Times list important to you or [01:14:05] X number of copies? I mean, leaving aside that we're trying to not be attached to results, but, you know, with your new book,
[01:14:10] Steven Pressfield: for example.
[01:14:11] Steven Pressfield: I have a very modest, you know, if it's, if it's just sells enough that a publisher will publish the next book, then, then that's good enough for me. Again, because there are so many extraneous factors that you absolutely cannot control, and to be attached to that, you're driving yourself insane, you know?
[01:14:31] Luke Storey: Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I mean, uh, the appreciation of art is subjective, too, right? Yeah. So even if we did the perfect work, there's timing and there's also just you have no idea what's going to resonate with people. I mean, I know if I go to, I don't really go to concerts anymore, but when I did, say I go see The Rolling Stones, right?
[01:14:52] Luke Storey: I'm so bummed because they're just playing all their hits. Uh-huh. Everyone else seems to be thrilled they're playing Satisfaction. Uh-huh. I don't need to hear Satisfaction. Uh-huh. Right? I wanna hear a deep cut off- Uh ... whatever, Goat's Head Soup or something, right? Uh-huh. And it's like, [01:15:05] so for me, I'm having a much different experience- Hmm
[01:15:07] Luke Storey: 'cause, like, I'm kinda sick of all those songs- Hmm ... and everyone else, you know, maybe those are the only ones they've ever known, right? So for the people up on stage, they might have an idea about what people want, but every single person in that stadium probably wants something different.
[01:15:20] Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
[01:15:21] Luke Storey: You know? So it's like y- y- you have no control over how people- Yeah
[01:15:24] Luke Storey: are going to receive it. Yeah. And like you with, uh, your books that were kind of sleepers that just percolated along, and all of a sudden, boom, it's like you can't even predict that. No. All I wanna do is just keep going, you know? Yes. Yes. Um, okay. It's 10:04. I'm being mindful of time here. Uh. I know you got a, you got another thing to be, uh, to do after this.
[01:15:47] Luke Storey: Um, let's talk a little bit about procrastination and avoidance when it comes to taking big leaps. You know, whether it's creative or career or whatever it is. And- The difference between that and legitimate self-care [01:16:05] when you just need to kind of step back and slow down and get less done, be less productive, I think our culture is very production-oriented, maybe to a fault.
[01:16:16] Luke Storey: And so we might feel like, "Oh, I'm in resistance," or, "I'm procrastinating," but no, I actually just need to take a break and nourish myself. Hmm. How do you determine that in your own life? I'm
[01:16:26] Steven Pressfield: not a fan of taking breaks. I c- I get the sense. Because I think a lot of times that's resistance. It's a form of resistance, you know?
[01:16:34] Steven Pressfield: Uh, it's a very seductive voice in our head, you know? "Oh, your, your soul needs a little care, you know? You're working too hard. You don't wanna burn the candle, da, da, da, da. So why don't we, you know, take a break?" And, and of cour- and resistance is looking down on us going, "Well, that's great. I love it." You know, like, 'cause I know that if, you know, if Luke knocks off for a week, when he tries to go back on day eight, it's gonna be a lot harder and a lot harder, and I'll be, I, meaning resistance, can hammer him a little, a little more and stop him from doing what he's supposed to be doing.
[01:17:03] Steven Pressfield: Right. So on the other hand, [01:17:05] there is some legitimacy to that, and we don't wanna, you know, burn ourselves completely out. But as a, as a general rule, I'm not really a f- fan of taking breaks. I can
[01:17:16] Luke Storey: tell. Uh. Uh, good for you. I wanna learn how to do that, too. Um, what about the routine, setting a routine for your creativity?
[01:17:29] Luke Storey: I feel like that can be supportive, but also maybe work against it in terms of creative inspiration, right? It's like if we don't have some discipline or routine, nothing's gonna get done, but also it gets very monotonous if you're sitting in the same place doing the same thing every day like a factory worker.
[01:17:45] Luke Storey: Ah. I would say, okay,
[01:17:48] Steven Pressfield: if, if you're, if you're a believer in the muse, she likes to know where you are. She wants to know where she can find you s- so she can help you, so she can give you what you're doing. So I'm definitely a believer, if you can be in the same place at the same time every day, [01:18:05] I think that, uh, a, a, a ritual, a discipline, a regimen, the, the goddess likes that, you know?
[01:18:13] Steven Pressfield: And again, that sort of argument about, oh, it's n- not creative, you know, because you're just, you know... That's form of resistance. That's a, that's, that's resistance trying to stop us and make us, "Well, maybe we should go to, you know, uh, Costa Rica or Italy, you know, da, da, da. We'll be more inspired there." I don't, I don't believe it.
[01:18:34] Steven Pressfield: You know, I think, um, you know, uh, the, the goddess wants to know where we are, where she can find us. I
[01:18:41] Luke Storey: dig it. I, I find routine is pretty supportive- Yeah ... you know, personally. Um, because I'm... I don't know. I get my inspiration for creativity elsewhere, you know? Yeah, yeah. It kind of comes from the ethers, and so I find if I'm not committed to some sort of schedule that I can find a lot of other things to do- Yeah
[01:19:03] Luke Storey: that seem [01:19:05] important, but in- Yeah ... reality
[01:19:06] Steven Pressfield: are not. Yeah. I would say, I've said this of, uh, my time before I sort of finally sat down and started to, to really write, one of, the way I sort of... My addiction, what I sort of used to run away, was driving. You know, I would be, you know, just go everywhere, you know?
[01:19:24] Steven Pressfield: And, uh, I say in that, I used to, I put, like, 400,000 miles on my old Chevy van, uh, before I started working, start- started writing, and since then I hardly drive even to the grocery store, you know? But now I'm actually working.
[01:19:42] Luke Storey: Yeah, yeah. I, I was, uh... I had to turn in my mileage on my car for my insurance.
[01:19:46] Luke Storey: Uh-huh. And I was like- ... "I'm officially an old man." I drive, like, 3,000 miles a year or something. When I lived in- That's a great sign ... when I lived in LA, like, my insurance would go up 'cause I went over the miles, or if I leased a car, I'd be, like, way over- Mm ... 'cause I, I drove for a living, you know? So that, that is kind of an in, in a funny marker of- Mm[01:20:05]
[01:20:05] Luke Storey: of maybe aging or as your lifestyle changes, gets a little different. Uh, last thing I wanna ask you is this. Uh, we've been talking a little bit about attachment to outcomes and, you know, routine and things like that. What was it like emotionally when your house burned down? I think of that as something that's just so terrifying because it's, you know, have this sense of safety and accomplishment.
[01:20:26] Luke Storey: I've worked so hard in my life to finally be able to have my own home, and everything's just how I wanted, and you have your little artifacts, uh, and, um, you know, the different items that are important to you for different reasons. I mean, how did you reconcile that?
[01:20:42] Steven Pressfield: What did you- It's, it's really hard. I was just, uh, talking with another...
[01:20:44] Steven Pressfield: It's like, uh, our, our whole neighborhood burned down, so we have a bunch of friends that share the experience with us, and it's like, you know, you're veterans of the war or something. I- You can... It's, it's really been very hard. And for me, it was, um, it wasn't just a house. It was, like, where I worked. It was in a beautiful spot [01:21:05] overlooking the water.
[01:21:05] Steven Pressfield: You know, it was a, not a big house, but it was in a really nice place. It really felt like, uh... So it's, it's, it's been really hard in trying to, um, find whatever lessons there, there are from that. And the lesson, it seems to me, that I'm sort of trying to, to get is that, uh, as long as you're still breathing, the goddess is still there.
[01:21:30] Steven Pressfield: You're still plugged into that underground river. That's what really counts. And, um- But when I confess, I, I know I have not really absorbed it all yet. I haven't hit the grief process when I go up to the burnt out lot that is our, our place. It's tough. I can, uh, I know I'm not taking it all in. I'm blocking.
[01:21:52] Steven Pressfield: It's too much to take.
[01:21:53] Luke Storey: Yeah. Yeah. But
[01:21:54] Steven Pressfield: then you look around the world, and there's a lot of other, a lot worse stuff than that, you know? So- Yeah ... you know ... it's,
[01:22:01] Luke Storey: it's one of those perception things, right? It's like from one side, the perception is I just [01:22:05] lost everything I own, but you could look at it another way.
[01:22:07] Luke Storey: Like, I have this cleared lot overlooking the ocean in Malibu. Well, I'm still breathing, you know? You know? Yeah. I'm still alive. We're all still alive, so. Well, I think about, I think about that a lot in my own life, you know. It's, it's very clear obviously that we don't take any of this with us, and we're only here for a short amount of time, so how much does materialism actually matter?
[01:22:28] Luke Storey: But I, I know for myself, I definitely have, um, attachments to just a certain level of security and comfort, you know. It's not so much about the stuff. It's about what the stuff seems- Yeah ... to provide.
[01:22:40] Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
[01:22:41] Luke Storey: You know what I mean? Like- Yeah ... I don't care about the two-by-fours behind these walls, but it's like this is where my wife and I- Yeah
[01:22:46] Luke Storey: live and share our lives. Yeah. And so there's, you know, like- It, it is more than material things, you know? It's a real, it's your home, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It, it's funny. Um, I, I've known quite a few people that have lost their homes like that, and I just like, man, you know, losing a person is hard. My dad died last year.
[01:23:04] Luke Storey: I mean, I, the first [01:23:05] time I've ever had to really work- Uh-huh ... with grief and learn how to do that, but I've never had a, a substantial physical loss like that. Hmm. You know, 'cause I never owned shit. Uh, yeah, yeah. It's like makes, makes it easy. Yeah. I had my car towed, you know, and then you get it back, you know, but I- Yeah
[01:23:20] Luke Storey: I've never been through something like that that, you know, is that much of an upheaval.
[01:23:24] Steven Pressfield: Yeah. Me too. I mean, for years and years, I thought, "I'm never gonna be able to own a place. I'm never gonna actually have a home." And then to finally get one and, you know, and then lose it, you know, that's a hard one.
[01:23:38] Luke Storey: When you wrote your memoir, you're writing about yourself and your own life. Uh, with something like The War of Art, you're writing something that's explanatory, more of a, of a teaching. Um, and then your book here, The Arcadian, it's a work of fiction where you're, you're inventing a world. W- what was the most...
[01:23:58] Luke Storey: Like, what, what's the difference between the level of personal and emotional investment? Like, did you find there was a lot more [01:24:05] emotional investment in the memoir than, say, writing fiction or writing something that's more- Ah, that's a great question ... philosophy?
[01:24:10] Steven Pressfield: Much more in, in fiction. Really? Much more engagement in fiction.
[01:24:14] Steven Pressfield: Wow. Yeah. Much more. 10 times more. Yeah.
[01:24:19] Luke Storey: No shit. I would not have guessed that. Are you- I'm not sure, I'm not sure why ... I wonder if you're becoming invested in the characters. You're creating this world- Absolutely ... and you're now living in that world in order to do it right. You know? You
[01:24:32] Steven Pressfield: are. And you're trying to create a world, and then you're trying to reel in the reader, you know, to believe in it, to care, and, you know, you really are, you really are invested in it.
[01:24:48] Steven Pressfield: You know, you're, it's a, it's a process of seduction in a way, right? You're trying to, page one, you're trying to get them to turn to page two, and at the end of chapter one, can, will they keep going? And, you know, and you're trying to, uh, it's, it's, it's like a, it's a symphony. There's [01:25:05] many, many moving parts, more so than in nonfiction, I think, which is pretty straightforward.
[01:25:10] Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It just kind of, uh And a memoir is, is even trickier, as you know, because now you're dealing with your own stuff. You're, you're, you're simultaneously trying to give the reader a, a real experience and take them on a journey, take them on a trip and deliver a payoff, but you're also confessing- Yeah
[01:25:31] Steven Pressfield: being out front, trying to find the right voice. And you do have to, as, as you know, make decisions. What, what are, do I put everything in there, or do I only put this in? And what do I put in, and how do I, you know, do I tweak it a little bit? You know, do I fictionalize a little bit here and there? Um, and which you have to do because real life is, you know, so boring and tedious and horrible.
[01:25:53] Steven Pressfield: Um. H- how
[01:25:56] Luke Storey: do you, uh, how do you work with pacing? W- you know- Pacing? Yeah. When you, when you've drafted something, whether it's fiction or otherwise, h- how do you get [01:26:05] the inner sense of the reader's level of attention and, um, adherence to- Ah ... staying in the story? That's a great, that's a great question. Like, when do you sense it's bogging down or that you're moving too quickly?
[01:26:17] Luke Storey: You know, you, 'cause writing you can compress time or you can expand time. Yeah. We could take this conversation and, you know, talk about it for 10 hours if we teased out every nuance. Yeah. Or we could just give a 30-second overview of the gist of it. Yeah. Right? But it's, it's, objectively it's the same period of time, but how you approach it is like an accordion.
[01:26:37] Luke Storey: Yeah. You can kind of open it and close it- Yeah ...
[01:26:39] Steven Pressfield: at will. It's a real, I mean, nobody teaches you that. I'm just going on instinct. Um, and it is sort of interesting, like sometimes you'll be watching a movie, and the movie's, and then it's really holding you or something, and there'll be a scene where, uh, a character will get out of a car, they'll walk across a piazza in Italy.
[01:26:57] Steven Pressfield: They'll go up a flight of stairs. They'll turn, and you're wondering, "Why am I, I'm interested. Why am I, why did, uh, Martin Scorsese [01:27:05] decide to follow this guy all the way through rather than just cut right into the thing?" And it's, I guess it's just an instinct that the storyteller has. Maybe you need to slow down a little bit here.
[01:27:15] Steven Pressfield: I, I, I don't know. I know that's one of the hardest things is when you get to a place where you can feel it bogging down. The story's kind of , you know, it's- Yeah. And then you go- The engine's sputtering ... well, how do I, how do I, w- do, can I cut these 20 pages? Will that help? You know, it's hard. But those are the real challenges, I think.
[01:27:34] Steven Pressfield: I remember reading something about Sam Kinison, the comic. Mm-hmm. And, uh, they were asking him, "What's the hardest part of a, of a routine?" And he said, "It's the transitions." And I, I had never thought about that, you know? Oh, interesting. Yeah. Um. He said that's where he does the most work, the most writing work.
[01:27:50] Steven Pressfield: How do I get from talking about the homeless to talking about, uh, Richard St- uh, Simmons, you know? Right. And what is it, what is it? And that is a kind of a pacing thing, too. Yeah, it is.
[01:28:01] Luke Storey: Yeah. It is. Yeah, 'cause- It's a great question ... 'cause it's like you can, you can draw [01:28:05] the audience into, to an idea or to a feeling But you can't keep them there forever, so how do you keep them in the interim between that block and the next block?
[01:28:15] Luke Storey: Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. How do you? That's kind of the skill in a way, you know? Yeah. Well, I like your answer. It's just gut feeling, you know? I think so. Leaning, leaning and trusting, uh, leaning on and trusting in your intuition, you know, which I'm sure obviously you get better at after you do it enough times and you see what works.
[01:28:32] Luke Storey: I don't know. It's always a challenge. All right, so we're gonna put the show notes at, let's see, lukeferrer.com/pressfield2, wherein we will link to your prior episode, number 363, and we're also gonna put links to all of your books there. Before we get out of here, tell us about The Arcadian, the latest.
[01:28:48] Luke Storey: Give us the, the synopsis of
[01:28:49] Steven Pressfield: that. Uh, I have a recurring character. His name is Telamon of Arcadia, and he is the kind of a, uh, the one-man killing machine of the ancient world, sort of like Clint Eastwood, the man with no name in the spaghetti Westerns. [01:29:05] And, um, he operates under a curse. He has, for crimes in the past, he has been condemned to live lifetime after lifetime, always as a soldier.
[01:29:20] Steven Pressfield: And in this story, The Arcadian, he finally gets to the point where he thinks, "Maybe this is my last lifetime. Maybe I'm going..." And in fact, your book is about a horse, or it's the horse named Lonesome. Yeah. Um, called Lonesome, and in this book, I'll give it a little more story than maybe I should. No, go for it.
[01:29:41] Steven Pressfield: Um, he is serving in one of these lifetimes, and he sees this horse that's kind of following the outfit that he's with, and he recognizes the horse as his horse from 1,500 years ago when he served in the 10th Legion of Rome in the Holy Land. And the horse has an X brand, the X, you know, the [01:30:05] Roman numeral for...
[01:30:06] Steven Pressfield: And he has an X brand on, on his arm, as they, they all did in those days. And so he thinks, "Why is this horse suddenly here? Is this maybe to lead me to this is my final, I've served my time?" And so that's kind of the story of, uh, of, of The Arcadian, what then happens from, uh, him and this horse and, and his further- Very cool
[01:30:30] Steven Pressfield: further adventures. So there's sort of a, an undercurrent of, uh, karma and, uh- Very much so. Okay. It's exactly what it's about. It's really kind of about... It sort of asks the question, is there a mechanism of justice built into the universe that if you do something that's a crime, you're gonna have to pay for it?
[01:30:51] Steven Pressfield: You know? And, and then h- when are you absolved? Mm. When have you served your time? Yes. And you can... And, uh, so it is karma. It's exactly karma.
[01:31:02] Luke Storey: Amazing, man. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you so [01:31:05] much for taking the time to join me. Hey, it's a pleasure. In fact, the- This is great, Luke. So glad we got to finally- I'm real glad we connected again
[01:31:09] Luke Storey: yeah, got to meet in person. Well, it's years, yeah. I'm sorry that you arrived in Austin in the, the, the shittiest weather I've probably ever seen here. I'm, I always tell people, "It's normally not like this. Come back, you know? It's really nice in the spring usually."
[01:31:20] Steven Pressfield: Yeah. Uh, but I appreciate it, man. And, uh- Oh, thank you.
[01:31:22] Steven Pressfield: Thanks for having me on. Yeah. It, it's a great conversation. Thanks for the, you know, that we were able to have a real conversation here. Yeah,
[01:31:28] Luke Storey: for real, and thank you for the inspiration and support, and I highly encourage anyone, I mean, check out all of your books, but The War of Art, for anyone that doesn't feel like they're living their life on purpose and wants to discover what you're here to do and how to do it and the things that will get in your way in trying to do it, I can't recommend it enough.
[01:31:48] Luke Storey: Mm. I mean, it is a perennial, like, must-have, so thank you for contributing that to the world. And I encourage you,
[01:31:54] Steven Pressfield: Luke, to think about a, the next book. Yeah. Oh, my God. I, I have a feeling that there are more in there. You know? Yeah. Maybe not memoirs. Well, for sure not- Maybe other stuff, you [01:32:05] know? Yeah. I appreciate that.
[01:32:06] Steven Pressfield: Yeah. Yeah. Think about it
[01:32:07] Luke Storey: I, I have been. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. But, uh, the, the way you described it earlier, like, "Yeah, I'm already working on the next one," I'm like, oh my God. I can't imagine that. But that- Yeah ... that's encouraging to know that that is possible, so thank you for setting that example. Okay. And that, my friends, is what we call a wrap.
[01:32:27] Luke Storey: Thanks for hanging out on this week's episode of The Lifestylist. But before I sign off, I want to remind you about one of the best ways to support the show while also upgrading your life, my online master market. That's where I've curated a collection of my favorite lifestyle design products, world-class supplements, EMF protection gear, water purification, blue light solutions, biohacking tech, and tons more.
[01:32:51] Luke Storey: And these aren't just random health products. I mean, you can find that on Amazon. I've tested and vetted every item on the site, so if you see it there, it's something I personally use and trust. So if you've ever wondered what brands I actually [01:33:05] use day to day or where you can find the gear I'm always talking about, the master market is your one-stop resource.
[01:33:11] Luke Storey: To check it out, head over to lukestory.com/store. Can browse around, pick up some upgrades, and know that every purchase helps this show keep trucking. And the best part is that nearly everything listed there comes with an exclusive discount just for Lifestylist listeners, so you get cutting-edge tools to optimize your mind, body, and spirit and save some dough in the process.
[01:33:34] Luke Storey: Again, that link is lukestory.com/store. Get in there and dig around and stock up on the best of the best, and you can click that link right in this episode description. Oh, and don't miss the search bar while you're there. That's how you can quickly find exactly what you're looking for without getting lost.
[01:33:52] Luke Storey: All right, that's it. Until next time, be well, and share this episode with someone you love. Hell, share it with someone you're struggling to love because everyone deserves
[01:34:00] it.

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