[Luke] Tell me about the strangest intuitive experience you've had that defies explanation. In other words- Ooh... explain the unexplainable. And what's It'd have to

[Frank] Be the strongest?

[Luke] Well, what's the trippiest- Yeah... spiritual experience you've had that just, that left your jaw on the floor going, "What the F was that?"

[Frank] Well, the trippiest was probably the non-dual experience. So it's the least as far as, um... 'Cause then you could say like, "Oh, how do you know that was a real experience and you didn't create it?" Whereas other things, if I'm like, I was meditating on somebody and they emailed me the next day and said, you know, their eating disorder went away like that's like kind of trippy. For me though, it was the thing that destroyed the seeker in me, annihilated the seeker, annihilated that one that was sitting there meditating, trying to attain something. And it was actually six months after I stopped meditating completely, and I had a daily Kriya Yoga practice two hours a day, you know, for years. And I just stopped, and then I was sitting there one day, it was like 9:00 PM, and I go to bed at like between 9:00 and 10:00 every day anyway. I'm like a, an early go to bed person. And I'm sitting there in front of my altar, in front of a picture of like Neem Karoli Baba and all these people. Before, I had joined the lineage that I'm in now with, now I have my gurus up on the wall. But I'm sitting there and I was tired because it was late for me, and I put my head on the ground. The second my forehead touched the ground, I lost all body awareness. I mean, I didn't know where the body was, where, and I had no, um... Even that is too much description. Like I, there was no knowledge of a body. And it lasted, I don't know, maybe just a few minutes, but I had never on Ayahuasca, 30 ceremonies, or at least 30 times drinking, you know, I had never seen visuals. I've had incredibly profound experiences. I'm claircognizant, so I have knowledge that I don't see or hear. So I don't have that ability. I can't even close my eyes and visualize anything. And in that moment, kaleidoscope, just like full on kaleidoscope, geometric patterns, and I start going deeper and deeper and like I'm fixated on one of them. It was like a reddish, pinkish one, and as I was fixated on it, then it was like, whoosh, suddenly no awareness of anything. Not myself, not a thought, nothing. And I don't know how long that lasted, but I heard a voice, "Hello, my son," and it scared the hell out of me. I mean, I was on the bed, and within a split second, I mean on the floor, within a split second I was on the bed and, 'cause that's how fast it jolted me and I jumped up behind me. And I was like thinking like, "What was that? What just... I don't... Do I, can I still do a podcast?" Can I still talk about a book? Can I still... Like, what what do I do now? And I was sitting there for three days. I was like a zombie. I'd just sit there and stare at the wall. I'd be fixated on a spot, and I couldn't pull my attention. There were no thoughts about it. I just was like... And I remember thinking, like, "What do I do now?" And I guess Spirit said, "Do nothing." And so I was like, "Okay." And since then, I've really felt like... And it was telling me, it was, like, laughing, like, "You were never doing anything anyway." And so since that moment, I would say it was, like, the most transformative moment, because right after that, I met my guru. I got into this non-dual lineage. I mean, I had no concept of that stuff before. And actually, Ramana Maharshi, who I had no knowledge of his teachings, I had seen his face. Like, I know what he looks like. I know that's a guru that's famous or well-known. but I didn't know anything. I didn't know that he actually used to teach in silence. So he wouldn't sit there and have a dialogue. Sometimes he answered questions, but for the most part, he was just silent, and the transmission was received by the people around him. So he shows up in a dream of mine, and it was such a weird... It was almost like a, I'd say, not sexual, but intimate dream, where he's laying on his on his back, and I'm seated on him, meditating. Like, he's my yoga mat. And I'm, and I'm meditating on top of him. And I put my face down to his, like, this close, like, face to face, and he goes and blows smoke in my face. So again, he's fully silent. He's not teaching me through talking. And I, and I didn't do anything. I'm just looking at him, and he kind of gives me a smirk, like, you know? And I was like, oh, he wanted me to inhale. And I remember laughing in the dream thinking, "Well, I didn't know if his breath was gonna smell bad," so I, you know... So he does it again, and this time I go. And as soon as I do, I wake up, and immediately woke up, but with the message that this reality is like the smoke that I blew in your face. It seems like it's there, but you can put your hand through it. It's not actually there, but it seems like it's there

[05:23]

[Luke] When you had this experience I'm assuming you weren't, like, on plant medicines or anything- Nothing... but were you doing any kind of breathwork or any

[Frank] Practice? I've never even done breathwork. I've done it, like, one and two times, like, here at a retreat here and there, but I'm kind of like Allison. I don't like breathwork. I, it has to be a very specific one that I can do. My body, my nervous system, I don't know what it is, doesn't like breathwork, and so every time I've done it, I never, I'm never, like, feeling good that I did it. So no, I wasn't doing anything. In fact, I had, like I said, I'd stopped meditating. I'd stopped really seeking. I just kind of got to the point where I was like, "Who is the one seeking, and what's the point?" Like, whatever's gonna happen is gonna unfold spontaneously. So I still had, like, the deep devotion to spirit... But, like, I don't even like when people call me spiritual, and so I even, I always tell people I'm not spiritual 'cause I, you know, have a lot of clients, and I'm an energy healer, so naturally I think people attach that onto me, that I'm a spiritual person. I'm a very, like, aware person, but I'm not spiritual 'cause I think what happens is the ego then goes, it's attributing. It's like all it did was change its... You know this. I think you talk about this in your book too.

[Luke] Yeah.

[Frank] All you've done is change the identity, but you're still attached to an identity. It's a healthier, loftier identity, but it's still an identity. And all I... Now I see everything as spiritual entertainment, unless you're trying to find out who you are, know thyself. Aside from that, there's nothing that can be called spiritual. Spirituality is to know thyself. Everything else, astrology, manifesting, everything, all these things, human design, it's all entertainment, and the ego loves entertainment. And I was I think I was telling Allison this earlier. I had a client come to me, and she was like... I first thing I said to her, first thing, she went turn on the Zoom call, and I said, "Do you know that your left eye is detached, your retina? The retina is detached in the left eye. You should go see a doctor. I'm gonna clear around it so it won't detach, but you should still go just in case." And she was like, her mouth dropped, and she was like, "That's crazy you say that. I went to the doctor this week because of I've been seeing for three months now fluttering and, like, cloudiness in my left eye. And because I'm watching Mindvalley and Gaia and all the YouTubers that channel and this and that, they all told me that I was channeling angels. And if you see fluttering on this, in your peripheral, it means you're channeling angels." So she was like, "Great. Like, I'm this is awesome." And I'm like, "No, your left eye, your, the retina's detached, you know?" And she said the doctor said the same thing, and she had put it off. So that's where I think it becomes not just irresponsible but dangerous You know? And so I literally said, "Do, if you have time, can we add 30 minutes to this session and I'm just gonna talk to you about spiritual entertainment?" You know? versus actual spirituality.

[Luke] Yeah. I mean, that raises a really good point. Ultimately, there's nothing that's not spiritual, right? To segregate Yeah. Mm-hmm... as something unique that we are or Yes... we're doing is

[08:25]

[Frank] Kind of funny, right? Exactly. To create an identity or a concept- Yeah Around what just is.

[Luke] Yeah. Yeah. I've been there, man. I've been there. My life has been a lot about having a lack of knowing of myself, and then therefore manufacturing various identities. Yeah. You

[Frank] Know? Mm-hmm.

[Luke] Which by the way makes it really hard when you, when you kind of start surrendering all those identities, which I feel like I've done largely, it's very difficult to write a bio of yourself.

[Frank] Dude, I threw I didn't like it... my note cards, but half of them for you were challenging that, and then when I heard you start talking in the beginning of my interview of you on my show, I was like, "He doesn't need these," and I literally skipped those. You didn't see me, but I skipped those note cards. Oh, funny. I was like, "There's no point in discuss- you're already bringing it up."

[Luke] Yeah. It's funny. Yeah. It's really, I... It's one of the things I have a hard time with, of being like a, you know, sort of a public persona. You need bios, like on my Yeah... I need a bio. I'm like, "I don't know what I do. I'm just... It changes day to day, you know?" Yeah. I'm into different stuff. Yeah. I don't know. He's-

[Frank] And that's not who I am...

[Luke] He's a guy that's interested in different stuff. That could be my bio.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] But let's talk about this this phenomenon of like becoming attached or even in some cases addicted to healing ceremonies finding the right practitioner, breakthrough peak experiences. It's kind of piggybacking on this, as you call spiritual entertainment, as David Hawkins would call it, the who has lived in Sedona for a long time, he called it the astral circus, right? Hmm. It's like people that get really attached to all these new agey and, you know, otherworldly ET, you know, all the things, right? Yeah. That I think... I personally feel like sometimes- The dark side of nature puts these things out in front of us almost to seduce us away from-

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] The more basic fundamental truths that are actually going to serve us. So as you said, you you know, you kind of stopped your practices and you're just learning how to live and be yourself and Yeah Live a normal life. let's talk about all of that.

[Frank] Yeah

[Luke] These attachments and kind of the seductive nature of some of these new age ideas and so on.

[Frank] Yeah, I like that. I like that. would you call it astral circus-

[Luke] Yeah, it's David Hawkins. Yeah. I didn't coin it, but yeah... Astral Circus.

[Frank] Mm-hmm. And

[Luke] Which is like Sedona's a great- For sure... example of that, you know, the crystal shops- Yep... and the vortexes and all this kind of stuff. And just something I've observed in the space over the years, the Whole Life Expo, I think it's called, and Yeah... and all these things. It's really interesting to the intellect- Yep To start thinking about ETs and channeling entities and all that stuff. I have never been particularly drawn to that stuff. I just kind of like more down to earth- Yeah... spirituality, I guess you could say. but give me your take on, you know, Mm... of the things you've gone through in those phases or you see kind of cultural memes or trends that might actually divert people from what they're seeking.

[Frank] Yeah. I call it spiritual entertainment. My guru, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, would say spiritual tourism, 'cause people would come see him and then they'd go, "Okay, we gotta go, 'cause now we're gonna go see Amma." And then they'd go see her and they'd be like, "Okay, we gotta go. We're gonna go see Ramana Maharshi." So it was like during the... It was in the '70s, so it was during that time period. I did all of it too, you know? I did. So I'm guilty of it as well, and that's why I can see it. It was only like when I stopped doing it all, and when I just went back to self, that then my guru appeared, and then all these experiences, like, started to happen. And I guess the big one, like the example of it now, is plant medicine, right? 'Cause now... I mean, when you and I were doing it probably, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, people weren't really talking about ayahuasca. People would be like, "Aya-what?" Like, "What did you do?" You know? Now everybody's like, "Oh yeah, my cousin went to an ayahuasca retreat. This happened, that happened." I'm going on in December to Sol Tara. I haven't touched plant medicine in six years. I haven't told them this yet, but I'm not planning on sitting in the ceremony. Even though this is, like, a collab thing we're doing, I'm not gonna sit in ceremony. I have no calling to that, and no experience, like, can give me the intoxication I get in my meditations of just self. However, the reason why I wanna go and still do it, not only 'cause I want a Costa Rica vacation, but also because There are still gonna be meaningful stories that I can share from other people who are having experiences, and if somebody is, like, gonna take their life or somebody's like, you know, deep in their addiction or whatever on their journey where it's like, okay, you need some kind of a magic pill right now, do that to stabilize maybe, and then realize-- 'cause I used to argue tooth and nail with every guru. I'd sit face to face in a private room with Sadhguru, with Sri Ravi Shankar, with no one else around, and I'd say-- and they would-- and I'd be like, "I'm telling you, plant medicine, like it tell-- it gives me everything you're saying. Like, I already know." And now five, six years later, I get what they were saying, that it's giving you an experience, but go beyond the experience. Who is having that experience? You gotta keep self-inquiring until no experience has any power over you or meaning over you. And so I think of it as like-- I actually thought about this yesterday, or it came to me in a meditation where I was, like, thinking about Soltora, and instantaneously I felt it's like giving $100,000 to a single mom who's, like, struggling to pay the rent. That's gonna change her life. Giving $100,000 to Jeff Bezos is not gonna make an iota of a change or even a-- it won't be even noticeable. And that's kind of where I see myself now with plant medicine, where I can see how plant medicine can really help a lot of people and save someone who's going through it or whatever it is. I don't see that it's gonna be that for me anymore I feel it, but it did help me a lot and, you know, 10 years ago.

[14:15]

[Luke] Yeah.

[Frank] I get that. A ton. A ton. It helped me see beyond the veil. It helped me know that there's more, you know, helped me connect with the inner child. But then I noticed in the last five ceremonies, I was sitting up in meditation the whole time, and that was like five years ago, was like probably the last one. And I and it was beautiful. It was a nice experience, but again, it was just like, okay, I think I've done my work with the medicine, you know? Yeah. And when I stopped seeking, everything happened.

[Luke] Well, it sounds like this experience that you described at the beginning Yeah... when you had sort of stopped that striving, craving, wanting- Yeah Trying to get somewhere. Mm-hmm. That sounds like God consciousness was saying you are there. Just recognize- Yeah... that you're there.

[Frank] Mm-hmm. And

[Luke] This is what it feels like to be there when you just allow yourself to be.

[Frank] Yeah. But then even, like, no need to prove it. 'Cause, like, before, and I think this happens with a lot of spiritual teachers, the ones I was having on my show that you probably have on yours, there's, like, this, like, need to get somebody to understand it or to know, like, look what I have done or what I've seen or what have I accomplished, and now I'm just like, I don't have that at all. Like, zero. You know, from before, it was like, "Everybody should do this. I want everybody..." Like, and I just don't have that anymore. so it really did a lot. And then, and you know, the funny thing about that is, like, I would have five years ago loved... I would have been like, "That's amazing that I'm on telepathy tapes. Like, they interviewed me and, like, all..." Or, "This person emailed me and said their thyroid cancer is gone," or, "This person told me that they haven't been able to talk to their mom in 10 years, and all of a sudden one session, and, like, they're hanging out every day and all." I would have been like, "I'm so great. I'm such a great healer." This is... Now I'm just like, you know, Jai Guru, Jai Guru, like, "Thank you, masters, for everything you're doing," and you know. And it's like, and it's because of the Like, even all the knowledge that you talk about non-duality, about this, that I talk about, it can be a little sad when I talk for, let's say, two hours on a YouTube Live about it, and people are like, "Yeah, this resonates," or whatever, and then the next day it's gone. It and I've realized, the gurus say this too, that knowledge with ego identification is pointless. If you have the knowledge, but you still think that you're the body, it's pointless. You actually have not absorbed anything. Suddenly, with this place of not, like, having conviction, I'd say, like, 50% conviction at this point, 100% would be, like, self-realization. I'm probably, like, 50% convicted, 50 to 60. With that, everything that I hear now, that I read now from the gurus or, like, spiritual texts or anything like that, is, it, like, is, it's absorbed in a way that cannot, I can't even explain. I'm like, "Wow, I might have read this book three times. I'm reading it for the first time right now because I'm reading it from non-body identification." Something as simple as, like, I was on somebody's podcast, and this is this is even the most simple example of this 'cause it goes way more layer than this. Somebody said, like, they quoted Rumi, "What you seek is seeking you." And I said, when you read that from the perspective of I am the body, you get trapped into this manifestation trend of like, "Oh, what I seek is seeking me. I want the lottery. I'm seeking it, so it must be seeking me," or this Lamborghini or whatever. It's not what he was talking about. He was in a state of ecstasy saying, what you seek, that divine love, that divine presence, that you, the self, is seeking you. But the... What happens is the ego, the thoughts constantly are pulling your attention. So as I'm, like, talking to you right now, maybe there's a thought here and my mind is fixated on it. But as long as I can just ignore that, it's happening, and I'm ignoring it and I'm focused here, it no it's not pulling me in any direction one way or another. I'm in I'm in the self. And then you might read the Bhagavad Gita or something like that, and you start realizing, "Oh, this is my story." And the spirit loves to hear its own story. The spirit loves, it wants to hear it, the story of itself. I can even cry thinking about it because it's like, what happens is you hear the story of, like, Lord Ram. That's your story. They were telling you your story, reminding the invisible listener in you your story. And that's why we love these stories. But what happens is then people go, "Oh, wow, Lord Ram is great. Jai Lord Ram, Jai Ram, Jai Ram." Put your like I love in my lineage 'cause there's nine, there's like nine masters that I follow, but they're all one guru. And it's just one it's one guru. And one of them is Sri Ramakara Maharaj, and he, and he says whenever people would go and, like, touch his feet and ask for a blessing, he'd say, "Put your hand on your head and bless yourself. You are the Sadguru. You are Sadguru." You know? But you think your attention is so fixated on this thing because... And he would say, what I love the way he put it is he said, "From birth, you were told you're a boy, your name is Luke, this is your religion, these are your people, this is your, this is your mom, this is your dad," and you would, of course, 'cause you're a child, accepted all of it. You said, "Okay," without any resistance. He says, "I'm now telling you are the supreme reality, you're the ultimate truth, but you have such trouble accepting it And he says, "So you have to hammer it in, hammer it in, hammer it in." So all this knowledge that he's spouting, that I'm now spouting by the grace of the gurus, all this is spontaneous knowledge. Because of them, I just, it just comes out. But it only is by their grace, but also because of the layout that they gave me of sing the bhajans. So because I'm singing the devotional songs to the gurus, the really high-potency songs every day, when somebody then... There's-- It makes you so devoted and so humble that even if you're self-realized, like Sri Ramakant Maharaj was self-realized and still would always say, "My master, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj says..." He would say, 'cause there's so much now devotion to the self that you don't take credit for anything. So, like, when somebody comes to me and says, "My back pain of 10 years is gone. You're a miracle worker. Wow, one session. I'm gonna tell everybody. I want my friends to want me..." I go like, "Thank you to the masters. They did everything." Like, "Wow, Jai Guru," you know? And it's not like I'm being humble. It's just like I just can't take credit for it anymore. I don't feel like I did anything, you know? It's like it's so different. So the bhajans, the self-inquiry, and the meditation, those are the three things that help somebody actually absorb the knowledge. Because all your life, the ego has been hammered into you, hammered. Now you need to hammer in the true identity, and that's done through meditation to dissolve the identity, the bhajans for devotion and for that humility so that the ego won't reattach, and then the knowledge that's given as medicine. And these gurus did not want disciples. They wanted-- They said, "We're not making disciples. We're making masters." And so every time they taught and people would come and say, "I want to build an ashram. I want to build an ashram," they'd be like, "Don't build an ashram. I'll be its prisoner. I don't wanna be the prisoner of an ashram." They said-- And they would always say, "You came here to get the medicine. I gave you the medicine," which is the knowledge and the mantra. The mantra is a secret mantra for five thousand years now. It's a secret mantra, and now you have it. Now go home and stop seeking. Don't go... Stop your spiritual tourism from place to place. This is the final stop You know? I gave you the medicine. They don't charge anything. They never took money from anybody. They'd say, "I gave you the medicine, now let it do its work." Just like when you know, you're, you have a cold and you take a medicine, and you just let it do the work. Trust it's working. It's You'll have experiences, and they always wanted you to go beyond the experience. So I'll do this meditation sometimes, and I'll start, like seeing purple and blue hues around everything. Like, after a meditation, I might be talking to you and there's purple and blue all around you. I purposely won't give it any attention. I'm not gonna get I'm not pulled by that experience. I'm just gonna focus on keep doing the practice. More will happen. Strange things will start to happen. Sometimes I'll spontaneously... I'll be in the backyard just, like, looking at a, at a tree, and my whole body just starts jolting, like jolting, bouncing, right? And I it's, like, uncontrollable. And then I just go, "Okay." 'Cause before I would've been like, "What is that? What's happening? Am I getting more abilities? Am I..." And it's like now I'm just like, "Okay, it's an experience. Keep going. Keep doing more. Keep doing more."

[22:15]

[Luke] So much great, Yeah... value in all of that I think that many of us, when we start to-- when we become aware that there's different aspects of the self, right? You have your true identity as a spirit or as a soul, and then you have this intellect, and this persona, and kind of the person that you feel you need to be in order to find your position in the world. Yeah. So many of us, when we find out, oh, the ego is, like, the root of all of our problems, it's this instinctive drive that gets us in all these trouble, and then you have this prefrontal cortex that comes up with all these terrible ideas on how to fulfill the wishes of the ego Yeah You know? And we end up in these really dysfunctional lives. So it seems like, and this is very true in the context of addiction recovery, that the ego is vilified as something that we need to smash or get rid Right... and that it's, you know, that it's, like, evil in a sense, right? And I get from what you're saying that it's more about the ego doesn't ne-need to be crushed. It's the identification with ego. Exactly. Yeah. 'Cause it's something that we can learn to coexist with because God gave us an ego, a persona, a sense of self, and identity for a reason. Mm. It seems like where we really get lost, and this has been my case, is start to become hypnotized by this false identity. And so it's like the degree to which I'm attached to and following the dictates of the false identity, that's actually the problem. It's like the bridge in between the real me and the false me.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] That's the thing that needs to be dismantled 'cause you can't dismantle the false you 'cause it's actually part of you, at least when you're in a human experience.

[Frank] In the human experience, yeah. It's absolutely- What do you think about that? Well, it's interesting, too, because it was talking about, like, the conviction, and I feel like certain things-- Like, for example, when I did the Telepathy Tapes podcast, it was, like, only four months after that experience. We shot it, like, nine months ago, and it's only airing, you know, next month, and from when I'm filming this with you now. And I wish I hadn't spoken as much as I had about all this 'cause I didn't have the full conviction yet. But, you know, it's like it was a very new it was, like, the only thing I was-- I was so in that experience still that I couldn't get out of it or talk about anything else. Now, I'm realizing why it's important to not talk about things till you have the full conviction. Ego is one of those things because as I'm starting to see now as I go deeper and deeper is that actually there was not only is it false in the sense that it doesn't belong, it's not your true identity, there actually is no ego. It sprouted from this bondage. There is no-- Just like there's no... But it's easy to say, "There's no past, no present, no future. There's no dream." But the grasping of that is much more difficult, and it takes a lot of constant hammering in. But I'm starting to see how even not only identifying with the ego is false, but they're actually, in reality, there is no ego. There is no mind It's not there, but it is showing you this reality. It is the thing that is, you know the mind is the unfolding of this reality. Everything I see has sprouted from mind and making it so real, like that smoke that Ramana Maharshi, you know, blew in my face in that dream. And the only difference between those dreams and this dream is that this is a long, continuous dream, and those are fragments of dreams, and this is the long, continuous dream And so with that, of course, the ego identification's gonna happen 'cause you're like, "Oh, I remember that experience. I remember..." And it's, you know... So it feels like it's actually there. From what the gurus say, 'cause I haven't gotten there yet, is that spontaneously one day, it's gone. Spontaneously. You won't expect it. You won't know, and it won't even be a big, like, whoa moment. It'll just be like it was there, and it wasn't. And, you know, the... You probably know this analogy. It's the most famous one, I think. And it's, like, in all the scriptures, in the Hindu scriptures of, like, there's a snake, but it's really a rope. And so, like, you might... At night, you're walking, and you see a snake in your backyard, and you run inside. The next morning when there's light outside and you walk out, you realize it was the hose, you know? And you're like, "Oh." It's like within, like, that, all of it is It's just like, "Oh, I saw it now with the light on." And so they're... What they're trying to do is constantly just turn the light on, turn the light on, turn the light on. You're asleep. You're in a dark room sleeping, and you're so afraid. Just turn the light on. You know, my, the... What I always say when I'm on podcasts and all these things is that everybody's teaching, and this is why I ended my podcast, and then I'll, I think I'm gonna bring it back next year, but I needed a year to not talk to people who are spiritual. And because, like, the biggest teachers even in the world were still, are still deeply ignorant. They're still using that spirituality to serve the body/mind. So manifesting, let's use for an example, 'cause it was the number one word in the dictionary in 2025.

[27:03]

[Luke] Really?

[Frank] The number one word in, Huh... according to the dictionary, the most used word manifest. And all these teachers are teaching you how to make your jail more comfortable, how to make jail happy, how to make jail... And I'm saying, "Get out of jail. Why are you in jail?" The when you know thyself, you're out of jail. When you don't know yourself, you wanna make the jail comfortable and happy, and you'll use manifesting and all these you know, all these, like, tools for entertainment. When you get out of jail, it doesn't mean that you now will go live in a cave. In fact, in my... What I love about my lineage so much is it's the Navnath Sampradaya. Specifically, I'm in the Inchegeri branch. and that was created by Sri, if anybody's interested, Balsaheb Maharaj.

[Luke] By the way, these Indian names Indian names, right?... actually gonna be impossible on the show It's like, it's all gonna-

[Frank] You know, traditional spelling.

[Luke] Alice and I have a friend that is, you know, a swami, and we've known him for a couple years, and neither of us can pronounce his name still. It's just Swami, you know what I mean? Swami. Like, there's a lot of swamis. Which one? I go, "Oh, I gotta look it Yeah And then I can, I can spell it out for you."

[Frank] Yeah, I know. The names are... I'm surprised I know them so well, but I can tell you each one of their gurus. I can say this guru, whose guru was Siddharameshwar Maharaj, whose guru was Balsaheb Maharaj, whose guru was Gurulingajanga Maharaj, you know? it goes back 5,000 years to the first one, Dattatreya, was the was the sage, and they say that one person was the incarnation of Lord Shiva, Lord Krishna, and Lord Brahma all in one, like it manifests took an incarnation in one birth together and that was the first stage of this lineage. The fact that this mantra has been a secret for 5,000 years is, it says a lot 'cause they make sure the seeker is very sincere before they give it, and when they give it, they make sure you know if you give it to one person, if you ever utter this in front of anybody or anything, it loses all its potency for you. It'll never work for you again, and so there's a very strong, you know protection of that. but yeah, I say like get out of jail because everybody... Like I got a message recently too. Somebody was like, "Do you think Elon Musk is a Pleiadian?" Or something like that, and I said, "Who are you? Find out who you are. Don't worry about who Elon Musk is. Don't worry about who Luke Storey is. Who are you?" 'Cause the thing is, Luke, like what I've realized now, luckily, thank God, is like you can answer every... You can solve every problem in your life, answer every question except self-realization and that'll still be lingering over you forever 'cause you still won't know who you are. You-- Vice versa, you can conversely answer and find out who you are, and every other thing goes away, and it does... And in this lineage, like I was saying, it's they are, they were all householders. They all had a wife and kids and families, and they'd never lived in a cave, and they were all realized beings, and they say, "Don't renounce. Don't do this. Don't be worried about being vegetarian or non-vegetarian or this or that. Just keep on with the mantra, self-inquiry, and meditation." All that other stuff is distractions. It's all creating a concept. I'm trying to eliminate every concept that you've ever created. All that stuff is illusion. What difference does it make if you eat... I'm vegetarian, but what difference does it make if you eat meat or not if you know thyself? It makes no difference.

[30:31]

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[Frank] I've got a new identity.

[Luke] Yeah, here's a new one, right? Yeah. So now I'm not like, oh, a downtrodden recovering addict. It's like, oh, now I've moved past that. Yeah. And I'm now an enlightened master, you know? Thankfully, I had a teacher. I

[Frank] Saw that in your book. I was, I liked that. I

[Luke] Had a teacher that was very grounded when I came back to LA and he basically just, like, shunned me. He's like, "Man, don't come around me with this bullshit." Mm. He was an old Southerner, and he didn't play games, you know? He didn't contextualize it this way for me, but in hindsight, I know that he could see what I couldn't see at the time. It's just, like, the ego just switched costumes, and I was still that much further from my true self and self-knowing because the ego's always It's just waiting to take on some sort of, um... It wants to have some sort of externally facing Sort of projection or persona

[33:45]

[Frank] Mm...

[Luke] Because what it's trying to do is help me to find belonging.

[Frank] Yeah

[Luke] Right? And to feel safe and secure, so I'm gonna put on whatever, you know, robes and beads and-

[Frank] Mm-hmm...

[Luke] Whatever I need to fit in with the certain sect of the population with whom I aspire to be connected,

[Frank] Right? Yeah,

[Luke] Yeah. And going back to, Even quite a few-... why it's impossible to write a bio, it's like, what... Well, if you let all that go, like, how do you even describe yourself? Yeah. I don't know. I'm just, I'm-

[Frank] But you can do it and still play the role. Like, honestly, even, like, doing podcasts again like this, I was asked her name is Anjema. She's in England, and she's a, she's a disciple of Sri Ramakant Maharaj and is the one who can give the mantra now, right?

[Luke] Okay.

[Frank] And so well, she's one of a couple, I think now, who can do that, and she's a master. She's a maharani, so the, a maharaj in female form is maharani. And Anjema, I said, "Anjema, like, I have... I don't wanna do anything. I don't wanna go promote this book." I have to go do some morning shows. I'm doing ABC, and, like, Good Morning Washington, and, like, these are very mainstream. It's not like talking to Luke Storey, right? And she said, "Play the role. You're playing a role. You don't, like, don't abandon the... Continue the dream." 'Cause also that's another form of trying to renounce or, like, she said, "Don't attra- I mean, don't want and don't reject either. Don't reject it and don't desire it. Just whatever shows up, you, that's what you're doing now."

[Luke] Neutrality. "

[Frank] And play the role. Play the role of this character," but you know you're not that role.

[Luke] Yeah.

[Frank] You know?

[Luke] After my first couple 5-MeO-DMT experiences, which sound similar to what you described, you know, that you just got on the natch, Yeah... that sense of just being folded into the totality of existence and losing a you altogether. Mm-hmm. Like, there's not even an observer there to witness or experience it because it's all folded into experience as a whole. But it's like after those couple, you know, big threshold doses, ever since really life has felt like I'm just kind of playing along.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] It's like, okay, everyone's kind of following, and it's not, it's not hierarchical. It's not like, oh, I'm, like, Right... up here playing along with these lowly humans that don't have it figured out. It's more about, like, not taking myself and my own identity and my own life experience so seriously. There's, like, this, I think, healthy sense of detachment where it's like, okay, yeah, I'm playing, I'm kind of playing the Luke Storey show here, right? It's Yeah.

[Frank] And ultimately there are no others.

[Luke] Yeah, totally. Totally, yeah.

[Frank] There are no others, so it's like what they're doing, what they're... It's like actually is all happening in me.

[Luke] Yes.

[Frank] But in me, the invisible self. Again, like, this is very hard to grasp because most people when I say, anybody says, "It's all in you," they go, "Oh, in this body is the universe. In me, there's everything." They weren't talking to the body. They're like, when the masters are talking, they're bypassing, and they're going directly to you, the listener. So they say, Okay, the eyes of the body see, but who is seeing? It's the eyes are like a binocular for who? Who is seeing? Who's hearing me right now? You know, it's like the invisible speaker is speaking to the invisible listener And I'm, like, bypassing Luke completely, and it's, like, interesting with clients and stuff too because like I said earlier, they think that I'm a spiritual person, this, that. So they'll come in and they'll be like, "My intention, well, you know, in the 5D..." And this, I say, "No, just use normal language. What is it that you want? What are you experiencing right now? Do you have tummy aches? Like, what is it? Like, talk to me like a normal person." I say to them all the time, "Am I coming to you and saying, 'Namaste. Thank you for coming onto the call today'? Am I playing a role? No. I'm in, like, an oversized shirt and my hair is tied up in a bun and I'm just, like, here with you right now. Like, in... what do you want, what do you want to clear?" You know? Like, don't try to... Don't waste this hour that you have with me that you paid for, you know, to talk, to try to play a role with me, you know? Like, you don't have to be that with me right now, you know? And so, and then we get to the healing. Because whenever they're, they... Like, I don't know if they wanna impress me or what it is, and not everyone does this, but, like, the, certain people do, and they'll come on and they'll be like, "Well, my guides and my angels are telling me that I should focus on this, but what I..." I'm like, "Just, what do you wanna work on? Like, what is it? Like, why did you book this session? And don't try to make it spiritual for me." You know? 'Cause whatever is causing your stomach pain is probably causing so many other underlying things, and that's why it's like, it's crazy. Like, I'll work with people sometimes who don't even know that they had a session. It'll be like, let's say, a mom who wants me to do a session for her 10-year-old son. Well, if you're that young, you don't need to be on the session. I'll just do it through the mom, right? So I'll say, "Okay, like, just, you know, you don't bring them on. It'll just be me and you. I don't wanna explain to a 10-year-old what I'm clearing. It's too hard." They'll tell me the next day, like, his eczema is gone, and not only that, but he's now has a better relationship with food and stopped complaining about his ankles hurting. So it's like we looked at one thing, but especially a 10-year-old who hasn't really unless they're Luke, hasn't really experienced much in life by age 10, you know? And so by then, like, it's so easy for me. In one hour, I can clear so much for them, rather than a 70-year-old who's coming to me with stage III cancer and it's their first time ever looking into themselves. I'm like, "Dude, you're gonna need 12 sessions. We have, we have to scratch through so much to get to this." Yeah.

[38:59]

[Luke] You know? There's a lot of scaffolding- Yeah,

[Frank] Mm-hmm...

[Luke] There, a lot of kind of a bone matrix right? Oh,

[Frank] Totally.

[Luke] That's calcified-

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] Around the person that you're trying to reach behind that, as you said-

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] The seer, you know.

[Frank] And at that point, it's like I might have to clear your heart and focus on that, and then move on to your actual intention. Or I need to clear... Like, I remember one woman, I actually love her, she's become a long-term client in Ireland, and she had, her eye pressure was at 25, and in one or two sessions, it I think two or three sessions, it went down to 13, and she... And I don't know what these numbers mean, but she was like, "Frank, on all these years of medication, they could never bring it down lower than 20." And she was at the point where they were gonna do surgery. They ended up canceling it. All of it, she was in her 50s, all of it was related back to age 23 when she left her fiance in France and moved to New York And she's like, and her, she's like, "That? Like I don't, I never think about him." Like, and I'm like, "You don't, but the body is holding on to all of this." And I had to clear so much around that and about her time at a, like a private school run by nuns. I had to clear all that stuff and her relationship with her sisters and her mom before I could even start to clear the eyes. It was like all this stuff is first, and then we can do that

[Luke] Do you think the spiritual path is more about addition or subtraction?

[Frank] Subtraction. I'm only-

[Luke] I know the answer. You know this, right? Well, yeah. I want, I want you to riff on it.

[Frank] Oh, I mean, like, look, so in my so you know a little because you have you've had Bradley Nelson on your show, who was my original, like, who started to show me. He's like, "You know, you're a healer," and, like, was trying to... And I was a TV journalist at the time, and I was, like, four Emmys. I was at ABC News. I was on track to, like, wanting my own show, and that was, like, the goal. And then I met him, and I met a curandera in Mexico and a shaman all in the same month, and all three of them use magnets, and all three of them are just, like, clearing. And so I tell people all the time because they'll be like, "What can I do?" Like, they always ask me at the end of a session, "How can I maintain this? Which..." And I say, "I'm not gonna give you any practices, nothing to do." It's about subtracting, and the more you meditate and the more you sit with yourself, the more... Like, I'm doing it fast track. I can be like, "You were abandoned when you were six. You were..." Like, I had a woman come to me and say... And her husband's a very famous spiritual teacher, like, super famous, and she came to me because she had fainted, and she wanted to know what was the underlying reason, and I said, "Actually, nothing. You're dehydrated. electrolytes is a suggestion. It's coming up." And she said, "It's, yeah, funny you say that. My doctor said it was coffee, too much coffee and dehydration." And I said, "But we need to clear all this grief around your heart from age 11," and she just starts bawling, and she goes, "My mom died when I was 11." So the difference is I can get straight to it. However, with years of meditation and consistent practice, every day something is falling away constantly. You know this 'cause you, like you said when I interviewed you, that meditation is non-negotiable for you 'cause you know, like, something is falling away every time. And so you can do this, and I tell people, like, my work is illusion, and who says that about their own work, right? But it's illusion. Yeah, I'm getting to real things that happened in your life, stories that, you know, you see, you think are real and seem real, but they're your bondage. They're all in the mind. So I'm really just going... It's like this. I'm sifting through your trash, and then we're throwing it out. Ayahuasca is the same thing. You're sitting there in ceremony, and you're sifting through your trash. Ramana Maharshi says, "Why do you sift through trash? Do you ever sift through trash? You just throw it out. It's in the bin. You take it, and you throw it out. You don't need to go through it. Just throw it out." But because people are not willing to throw out the trash, I sift it for them, and so they're coming to me. But it's not it's not fully necessary, but it's like meditation, by the way, also is an illusion. So Sri Nisargad- or Sri Ramakant Maharaj says, "Meditation is an illusion, but it's using a thorn to get the thorn out." So you still need to, you need to get, you need to use the thorn to remove the thorn. You know? And so it's illusion to get the... It's like what I, what I was saying before. I liked his analogy better. Now I say, "Use the thorn to remove the thorn." I would say, "Use the mind to dissolve the mind. Use the mind to dissolve the mind." You know?

[43:07]

[Luke] I think a barometer of Identifying teachings or teaching, teachers or teachings for me is like, has it surpassed the level of the intellect?

[Frank] Yeah. '

[Luke] Cause there's, early on in the journey, it's like the mind is so thirsty for information, and the ego is so thirsty for the credibility that comes from memorizing information Yeah.

[Frank] Uh-huh.

[Luke] Right? There's It's, it was still about like, "Oh, I need to add stuff that I'm missing," rather than get the things out of the way. But it's like a lot of what I see, you know, you can even see this in the podcast space, there's like a certain echelon of really popular podcasts, kind of more in the personal development space, and there's some really great information about just self-improvement- Yeah And success and manifestation and all these kind of things. But I find myself, as the years go on, I'm less attracted to anything that's at the level of intellect. Like, I find like, "Ah, that's interesting." There's a part of my mind that like wants to dig Mm-hmm... and learn more and learn and Mm-hmm You know, amassing information. Mm-hmm. But at a certain point, it's like you don't really need more information. You need to get rid of the false information- Mm-hmm... that you've been believing in and living by, you know?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] It's

[Frank] Because you already have all the knowledge. It's there. You are the You're, in fact, you're prior to the knowledge. The knowledge arose in you. So you're, if you're prior to everything, if you're more subtle than this space... I mean, look, if I go like this, is this space affected at all by me? No. When we get up from these chairs, this space will be totally unaltered. What you are is more subtle than that space, 'cause it's carrying that space. So what you are is so subtle that it's almost so hard to perceive, and it, only way it can be perceived is by removing all that other stuff, that stuff that's, like you said earlier, calcified. I like that word. Like, it's making it's all the density. Yeah. And when you clear the density, what's left is you. And you were always there. And it's not like you're becoming yourself again or not even remembering, 'cause remembering is of the intellect. What remembers? The mind. There's nothing to remember. You are that now. You always were, you always will. And it's like, it's unborn. That's the best way, I think, I like Nisargadatta Maharaj says, "You are unborn." He says, "You are the child of a barren woman." Right?

[Luke] Wow.

[Frank] When I heard that, I was like, "You are the child of a bar..." He's like, "You're describing the child of a barren woman. Can the child of a barren woman be described? No, 'cause a barren woman can't have a child. You are unborn. So what dies?"

[Luke] Wow.

[Frank] Nothing. You just drop the body one day.

[Luke] I've never done this before in 10 years and-... 700 episodes or something, but there's a book that I wanna grab real quick.

[Frank] Okay.

[Luke] Hold that thought.

[Frank] All right.

[Luke] You can sing a song or whistle.

[Frank] Okay.

[Luke] Entertain the audience for a minute. I'll sing

[Frank] The Gayatri Mantra. Om Bhur Bhuvah Swaha. There we go. Tatsavitur Varenyam. Okay. Oh, yes

[Luke] Yes Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

[46:08]

[Frank] Yes

[Luke] This copy of this book was given to me by my cousin Aaron in the early '90s, and he used to go to India on these spiritual pilgrimages to Satya Sai Baba's ashram.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Luke] Who ended up being quite a controversial character. Did he? Yeah

[Frank] Oh, I didn't know

[Luke] That. There's a lot of accusations about impropriety, and also really interesting. Well, you know how a lot of Sai

[Frank] Baba with the afro Yeah... used to make like, Yeah... bhumi, whatever. Yeah. Oh, okay.

[Luke] Yeah. Yeah. Well, the, I mean, I won't get

[Frank] How crazy that I started to sing the Gayatri Mantra, which was his whole thing.

[Luke] Really?

[Frank] That was, like, his whole thing, that he would sing Gayatri Mantra constantly.

[Luke] There you go. Wow. Everything's connected. Well, the general consensus around him, just as a tangent is that he really did have powers. You know, he was able to perform- That's all true... siddhis, right? And so yeah, he would manifest bhavudi and gold rings, and my aunts and my cousins and even my grandmother went and stayed for extended periods of time. Whoa. And, you know, first person witness to these miracles, and so it's pretty undisputed that he was able to do these things. Then as he got older, it appears that maybe he lost the abilities to do those, and maybe, you know, some ego identification or something came back in, so then he started faking them.

[Frank] Oh.

[Luke] And he you know, and this, there's also verified accounts of like, "Oh, you see, he just pulled the thing," you know, like magician stuff. Oh. So it, I think, and I haven't looked that deeply into it, but it was kind of one of these cases of the fallen guru syndrome, right? Mm-hmm. Where as you ascend, you also become, you know, as your, as your light gets brighter, you become kind of a magnet for moths

[Frank] Yeah. You know

[Luke] What I mean? And you could be-

[Frank] Which is why, honestly, the bhajans I was saying earlier are so important, and this the book you're about to hear, Nisargadatta Maharaj, he stresses the bhajans even after they were realized. He was fully self-realized for, let's say, the last 50 years of his life, and was doing bhajans three times a day. And devotees would come, and they would do the bhajans. Everybody would do it together. And he says because you wanna leave no opportunity for an ego to reemerge or reattach.

[Luke] There you go.

[Frank] Constant, every... So they're realized beings. There's no need for a bhajan. There's no except for he says you have to just in case, you know?

[Luke] So maybe Satya Sai Baba missed that.

[Frank] Mm.

[Luke] So anyway, So let me see. Okay. Yeah. So I was deeply addicted to drugs. This is in the early '90s. My cousin and my family are going off to India, and my cousin brings this book back, I Am That, which is a really great title. Yeah. It's like it describes non-duality kind of in three words. But on the cover, this is really the only part of the book I could read 'cause I was just so fragmented in my addiction, but there was something in what I'm about to read that just grabbed me to the point where I still have this book. And now I read the book, and it's much more clear to Oh... and digestible. But you reminded me of it when you were talking about the space and waving your hand. It's Oh... I gotta read this. "The real does not die. The unreal never lived. Imagine a big building collapsing. Some rooms are in ruins, some intact. But can you speak of the space as ruined or intact? It is only the structure that suffered and the people who happened to live in it. Nothing happened to the space itself. Similarly, nothing happens to life when forms break down and names are wiped out. The goldsmith melts down old jewelry to make new. Once you know that death happens to the body and not you just watch the body falling off like a discarded garment. The real you is timeless and beyond birth and death. The body will survive as long as it is needed. It is not important that it should live long." So good. It's epic.

[49:52]

[Frank] How crazy, like But

[Luke] Yeah, dude, I used to read that over-... on each page... and over again. I'm just like, there's something Wow... that feels very real, but I couldn't grasp it, you know? Uh-

[Frank] Yeah. That building analogy, I don't even remember, but I love that.

[Luke] Isn't that great?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] Yeah. I, you know, I should-

[Frank] Honestly, if you want like a personal I'll do it, you know, publicly on your own show invite you to, if you do wanna join the lineage ever or, like, anything, I'll introduce you to Anjima. You'll have the-- You've already read the book, so you don't need the knowledge that she'll is a pre-initiation requirement. But she'll give you the bhajans. She'll talk to you and then give you the secret mantra. I'm-- I have no doubt she would initiate you. Out of I love it... out of the hundreds of people on my, on my lives and thousands now, but I'm saying hundred on each, hundreds on each one, maybe fifteen hundred on each one that ask me for it, one actually follows up. And of those that I say, "Just read the book Selfless Self or I Am That, and then let me know if you still want it," not one person has come back yet. Two have who are friends of mine, but not anyone from my followers and but for you, if you did want that, she's coming to-- I just donated for her to come to do satsang in the US 'cause she's in England. She'll be in New York, LA, and a few other-- She's still figuring it out. Oh, wow. I have no doubt she would do it with you.

[Luke] Beautiful.

[Frank] But what a missed opportunity, I say, like, to my friends and family who have been reading. Like she-- We don't know how long she'll stay in the body and how long-- when she'll be back in the US again. I think it's her first trip here, and so it's like It's, you'll, like, everything you already know from that book, it's just, like, with the mantra. The mantra is designed for from 5,000 years ago. It's not a like, you know, a lot of mantras are devotional mantras, like to a certain, to Lord Hanuman or to Lakshmi. This is non-devotional. It's only designed, the only purpose of it is to hammer your ego until it's not there.

[Luke] Wow. Beautiful. Yeah. So you guys use this book, this book is, like, within the canon of

[Frank] Sakta

[Luke] Wisdom? Yeah,

[Frank] Because she's a disciple of his. Oh. Direct.

[Luke] Really?

[Frank] She's a direct disciple- Wow... of his disciple, Sri Ramakant Maharaj.

[Luke] Wow. Interesting.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] It's so rare that I meet someone that's a-

[Frank] I know. And that's why she's a, she's a living master and why I... It was crazy because, you know, like, no disrespect to any of the living gurus who are massive and have millions and millions of disciples, like Sai Baba, Sadhguru, Sri, all these people. I love them and I've had amazing conversations with them, but I never talked to any one of them and was like, "This is my guru." I met, when I first got into, like, Shrina Saga the Maharaj a couple years ago, and then all of a sudden I was directed, it was so spontaneous, to her, to that non-dual experience that I had, to Ramakant, all this. It just was like I was pushed into it. The second I met her, I'm like, "This is my path. This is my lineage." I let go of anything else. There's no question. Full on, like, I'm committed. This is my path, you know? And I think what happens is, like, when you know, you know, 'cause if I had known with the others, I would-- they would have been my guru. But for some reason, it's like I asked Sadhguru directly in a private room, "Tell me the truth. I wanna know the ultimate reality. Not what you say on YouTube, not what you say to the general masses, who you're probably, like, giving them what they're able to handle at the time. Just give it to me straight, like, tell me the ultimate truth." And he just, like, didn't really give it to me, and he said, you know, "Go watch this channel that I have. It's like a secret channel that, like, but you, like, it's a membership channel, you know?" And he's like, "And just join that, and that has, like, stuff..." But it all seemed redundant and the same as, like, the YouTube to me, and I wasn't satisfied. And then to his credit, though, 'cause I don't think if somebody is self-realized that they make mistakes. He maybe didn't think I was ready. Maybe he thought there was too much resistance or fear in me. I don't know what the reasoning was. All I know is I didn't feel this is, like, my guru. Nisargadatta Maharaj, even though not in a body, there, 'cause there is no body, he's more present than ever, said, "You are not the body. You are not the mind. Find out who you are. You believed everything else you were told. Believe this. I'm telling you directly." And I was like, "This is like..." It was, like, instant, like, "This is my guru." And for, like, weeks after of that first initial contact with just the book even or any Nisargadatta essence, I started having all these dreams of myself in the '70s and '80s in India. And I was like... But I was like like a Westerner. I was like, I was probably like... I looked kinda how I look now, but just, like, a little lighter and had, like, a mustache and, like, a shirt open down to here, you know? Like, I could see it so vividly. And I was, like, this cool guy, like '70s guy, like, in India wanting to explore, and I have a feeling that I probably was there and just wasn't ready to receive the mantra, and now I'm ready to get the mantra. Like, I went there, I was curious, but I was still doing spiritual tourism.

[54:29]

[Luke] Yeah. Yeah. '

[Frank] Cause I kept having this vision of this same... And it, and that eventually fell away. But for, like, weeks after that, I just kept seeing that, and it was, like, so real. There were, like, little Krishna and Shiva like, colorful paintings in windows of mirrors of, like, I'd walk by stores, and the mirrors had these, like... So I was like, "I know I'm in India 'cause I'm seeing everybody's, like, little Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva picture." but I just knew. It was like a lightning bolt Like a lightning bolt

[Luke] This is very interesting because I don't talk about that book often. I don't read it often. Yeah. I just, I still have that copy because it was the first spiritual book that I ever had in my life. Wow. And was, even though I was completely incapable of reading anything other than the cover that I just read, as I said, there was just something about it. There was an inner knowing from an ancient part of me that's just like, "You need this, whatever this is," you know?

[Frank] Yeah. And

[Luke] It took me years, and eventually I think I was led to the work of David Hawkins, which Yeah Totally based on devotional non-duality. And

[Frank] Letting Go, his book Letting Go is-

[Luke] Yeah...

[Frank] Right? Everybody knows Power vs. Force, but Letting Go is again- It's incredible,

[Luke] Yeah...

[Frank] Like subtract.

[Luke] Yeah. Don't

[Frank] Add.

[Luke] So yeah, this is very fortuitous. It's not lost on me that this is your lineage, because this has been the teaching that's always really- Wow Most yeah, most spoken to me.

[Frank] Mm.

[Luke] And also it's been a very long time since I've met someone where I've had the feeling like I could follow this person,

[Frank] You know? Mm.

[Luke] And I just think at a certain point I was like, "Well, I've kind of, kind of gone through all the teachers," right? Yeah. "And maybe it's time for me to just step out on my own and learn how to stand on my own two feet," and I'm, I welcome that experience, yet at the same time I'm like, oh man, it was pretty sweet when I would, you know, every decade or something I'd meet someone, I'd go, "Holy shit, I need to learn from this person." Yeah. You know? Like, they're on a level that I aspire to be, and our Swami's one of those people. Mm-hmm. But he's, you know, he's not that accessible. and even, it's interesting, when we spend time with him, it's so embarrassing that I literally don't know how to pronounce his name still. But when we spend time with him It's like he's not dropping knowledge on me. Yeah. You know?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] He's just he just shoots the Yeah... and just tells me about what's going on in his life and in the world, and I'm like, "Dude, give me the nugs," you know? Yeah. It's like, tell me about your even, like, he's got incredible stories from being a monk in the Himalayas, and just shape-shifting stuff. Mm-hmm. Bilocation, Siddhis, miracles, levitation, and I know he's truthful. Yeah. You know, he's a high integrity person, and I'm just like, "Give me, give me the magic," you know? But you know, I've-

[Frank] For whatever reason... experienced it firsthand, and he-

[Luke] He just hangs, he just hangs out, you know? And I'm like, how do I get to Yeah The guru? And it's like his way of guru-ing me, for lack of a better term, is just showing me that sometimes it's just about presence.

[Frank] He's just being. You know?

[Luke] Yeah. Yeah. And there isn't even, like, a really powerful Shaktipat. You know how you get around- Yeah... certain teachers, and the room just goes, like... Yeah. There's an energy there, and you might start-

[Frank] Yeah, the bell

[Luke] Rings... vibrating, and, you know, you're like, "Whoa, something is really happening here." There's not even any of that. It just feels very at ease and natural, and-

[57:30]

[Frank] Mm...

[Luke] Maybe there's, you know, like, little social anxiety. It feels very comfortable, but still even, he's the first one I've met in a very long time where I'm like, "Whoa, bow down." Mm. "This dude is the real deal."

[Frank] Mm.

[Luke] But the context of the way he teaches and the way he interacts with me is not, it's not in the nature of a disciple and student. It's just like we're just hanging out a little

[Frank] Bit. I love that you said that. 'Cause they say that, too, and you'll see, like Anjuman, all, if I, when I introduce you, and all these people, they say, they said the, "I sometimes will step into the ego role of disciple/master," like that's what they say, "for your benefit because you still see me as separate, and you still see separateness. But there's no, the guru and the master and the disciple and the master, there's, it doesn't exist. There is no disciple and master. There's the selfless self is all there is." And they say, like I keep saying this, but, "We're not, we don't want disciples. We want masters, and we want you to be a master." So, like when I first met Anjuman, she was like, uh... And I said, you know I told her about something that these astrologers had all told me, Vedic astrologers. All three of them said the same thing, that between the year 2036 and 2042, you'll renounce everything, and you will you will have self-realized, and you'll just that's it. Like, that's it. You're like, you're not gonna do... You're gonna wanna be fully alone, and you'll never come back. It's your last life. And I told her, it's like, "It's interesting that three people, one of them said the year '36. The other two said 2042." And I'm not asking. Like, this is not a question. Whenever I did these sessions, I would just be like, I would be going for my yearly, like, report, you know? And she said, she didn't she didn't, like, try to deny it or, like, you know, like a lot of like gurus and so, teachers, they'll try to put you down or keep you dependent on them. She said, "Good. 2042? How old will you, how old will the body be?" And I told her. She said, "Good. Plenty of time to help other people realize." Plenty. So what I like about that to say is like they have such confidence in you that you will be the master. You know? Like they know. And like and when you read the, there's another one, Selfless Self is by Ramakanta Maharaj and which was Sri Nisargadatta's disciple who became realized and took over his teachings. He says the same thing. He's like, "You know, you will 100% this is gonna happen. You will be realized if you stick with it with conviction. Whatever you put into it, you're gonna get out of it. Stop, but you have to stop, like, going down other paths. If you've chosen this," he said like, "You don't choose a mother and then choose another mother. If you've chosen this mother, this is your mother." And he says, "This is the... What has all the other... " 'Cause they'd say, "Well, can we go to Ramana Maharshi? Can we go here also? Can we go to that ashram?" He'd say, "This is your final stop. What have all those other things that you've done, what have they led you to? They led you here, so this is your final stop. Now just stick with the practices. Do the bhajans." And they're not, they're like, "Look, I don't want you to... Like, go home. Like, I'm not asking you to stay here and be my disciple. I'm not trying to, you know, recruit you. I'm saying, like, this is your final stop. You got the knowledge. You have the bhajans. You have the meditation. Now go and do it. And stop seeking elsewhere."

[Luke] Which is the exact opposite position of a cult whoYes,

[Frank] They give you more kriyas-... is convincing... and then now you need to do this one, and then there's, you know, this retreat that we're doing about bliss and this retreat and that

[1:00:35]

[Luke] Retreat. It's like a multi-level marketing kind of spiritual.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] And I'm sure much of it is well-intentioned, but, um-

[Frank] Yeah, and I'm sure there's a lot of good that's being done. I'm sure they are helping a lot of people. And it, but it's kind of like you said, it's like they help you, but they're helping you just become more maybe mentally stable or more calm or more But it's just all it's done was subdue your ego or maybe change it to a more spiritual one. But I wanted knowledge. I was very clear about that. You know, I'd look at them in the eyes. I'd like, "Tell me the truth. Like, what is reali- what, I wanna know what is... " I didn't know back then maybe that's what it was. I didn't know what I was asking for. But I remember saying like, "Tell me the truth. Don't tell me what you say on YouTube. I wanna know, like, I don't care how hard it is to hear. Tell me it." You know? Mm-hmm. I just, I knew I wanted the final stop. And then he you know, Nisargadatta Maharaj gave it to me.

[Luke] Your body has somehow been managing to heal cuts and scrapes your entire life. But somehow, we got duped into thinking we need disinfectants that sting or burn to make the process work better. It's crazy, especially when you find out the body already produces one of the most powerful tools for supporting damaged skin. It's called hypochlorous acid, and it's what your white blood cells make as part of your natural immune response. It fights pathogens, calms inflammation, and supports tissue repair. So I'm thinking, why not put that same biology to work on the outside? And that's the whole idea behind Active Skin Repair. Their medical-grade formula helps cleanse, soothe, and support healing without discomfort or disrupting healthy tissue. And this stuff is ridiculously versatile. I'm talking cuts, scrapes, burns, breakouts, bug bites, rashes, irritated skin. You just spray it on and let your body do what it already knows how to do. So to get your skin issues fixed up, here's what you do. Go to lukestory.com/skinrepair and use the code Luke at checkout to save 20% off your order. 'Cause sometimes the smartest health technology isn't about overriding your biology. It's about working with the intelligence that's already built in. So again, hit up lukestory.com/skinrepair, and don't forget the code Luke to save that 20%. Let's go back to manifestation. This is something that I don't wanna say I wrestle with, but there's things that I want in life that on the material plane don't appear to exist, right? Yeah. Just financial abundance, whatever, right? I mean, one thing that I really would like to manifest is to never fly commercially. Yeah.

[Frank] Yeah. Uh-huh.

[Luke] I just, you know, if you wanna fly private, that takes... Something's gotta manifest something, right? 10,000-

[Frank] It's like $50 million.

[Luke] $10,000 an hour, you know-

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] Kind of thing. also, I know that if I don't learn how to be grateful and satisfied with what I have right now in this moment, that you could give me anything the universe could provide, and I'll still be the same unsatisfied-

[Frank] Yeah

[Luke] Incomplete person, right? So I, you know, I do. I have goals and dreams, and there's things I want to attain. But I think what I observe in myself to some degree, but more so in kind of the collective wellness space, is that this manifestation idea is something that's very easy to monetize 'cause you're monetizing people's desire. And it's like, to me If I could have a wish granted, it wouldn't be really to manifest the things that I want, it would be to stop wanting.

[1:04:06]

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] So it's like-

[Frank] Bro,

[Luke] Look at the manifesting faith... what I'm, what I'm looking for is to release my attachments- Mm... say, to the belief that I can't be fulfilled and happy unless I'm flying private.

[Frank] And then honestly, as soon as you stop wanting is probably when it'll come.

[Luke] Right. But it's kind of a conundrum I find, okay? 'Cause it's like, okay, if I look at my own... I'm just keeping it real, right? I like going to different places on earth and experiencing different cultures and climates and animals and all the things. I like to go to nature, right? In different places, not cities. And to do Mm... generally, depending on where you are, you gotta get on a plane. I have a strong aversion to everything involved in flying commercially- Yeah... from checking through TSA to Yep... planes. The whole shit is just like a nightmare to me. Credit

[Frank] Card companies screaming at you, "You deserve it. You deserve it. Get the Southwest credit card. Get the Delta Blue..." Yeah. The

[Luke] Whole

[Frank] Thing, right? Higher status. Like, they're just, they're wanting you to do more, get more, want more. You deserve it. Luke, you deserve it, you know? Yes. Yeah.

[Luke] So okay, so there's something I want. I have a desire. Yeah. in other words, I have an attraction. I also have an aversion to part of that process, one of the necessary ingredients, which is getting the body from point A to point B. Therefore, another desire or attachment is born out of that, and that is the idea or the belief that in order for me to experience all there is to experience on the earth in different locations, that in order for me to do that, I need to be on my own little small plane with a few homies and not a bunch of other NPC randoms, right?

[Frank] What is NPC? 'Cause I've heard you say that a few times.

[Luke] Non-player character.

[Frank] Oh, got it. Okay, yeah. So I love it...

[Luke] It's a

[Frank] Are you some kind of matrix avatar

[Luke] It's a, it's a, you know, it's NPC... it's an arrogant superficial judgment on people that are less awake than me is what it is. Yeah. But no, it's just non-player character, someone whoYeah... just like a zombie, just-

[Frank] Background...

[Luke] Yeah, a background player just living this life without any Mm-hmm... depth or presence or, you know, any clue of what is going on. And I'm sure that I've been one of those a thousand times you know, in past lives to get to the point now where I'm like you going, "Tell me the truth." Yeah,

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] What's the big, what's the capital R reality here, right? So the conundrum for me is like, okay, there's things I don't want, there's things that I want, therefore to get the things I want, I would be someone who would sign up for a manifestation course. Like, okay, let me put a giant picture of a private jet on the wall and stare at every day and invoke the feeling of what I feel like it would, it would be to have that kind of freedom, that level of mobility. I think that's the, that's the higher value that I'm looking for, right? Yeah... freedom and experiences, right? Novel experiences where I can really live this life to the fullest. So without knowing the traps of desire and attachment, I could spend a lot of time and energy attached to that thing because I have a belief about what it's going to give me, right? Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Luke] Yet if I don't like set my sights on a target, I'm just using a random example of-

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] Flying a private, right?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] If I don't set my sights on that target, well, then I'm just gonna be relegated to a life of flying commercial and suffering every time I wanna go somewhere. So I'm kind of in this cyclical relationship with the idea of manifesting what I want, yet at the same time, it seems like the higher goal would be to actually surrender all attachments and aversions altogether and just exist and just be, is just essentially Yeah You've been describing.

[1:07:24]

[Frank] Yeah, I mean, I leave so much money on the table by not doing retreats about manifestation you know what I mean? Like, there are people, I saw one in Dubai who had the whole like 100, 200 people, and I was invited. I, you know, I wouldn't have gone otherwise. and you had the... It was a fun experience actually. She had everybody dancing and, "Okay, we need to get your vibration high so that you can," you know? And she's making millions of dollars and, allegedly. The thing is though, if it doesn't happen, you don't get that private jet, you, they'll tell you, "You didn't do it good enough. You didn't do it strong-" Like, there's just gonna be blame of like, "Well, you gotta do it more, Lou. You gotta keep doing it. You know, you're still And then it just creates more that, oh, there's an issue with you that you need to fix, and that's why it's not happening. And then the second thing is that, like, the most simple way to really talk about it is, like, what the masters always say is, again, they turn the attention on you. So when you say, "I want this, I desire this," they say, "Who wants it? Who's desiring it?" 'Cause it's constantly reminding you that you are the supreme reality. What are you desiring in your perfect place right now? That you're that you're not even actually here. This is an avatar for you, for you to experience yourself and to know that you exist, and that existence is there. So, but they would also say it's okay. Like, it's okay if you had the private jet. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's the desire, the need for it, the thing that you're, the feeling that you're lacking. That's what they want you know, to-

[Luke] Yeah...

[Frank] Just bring the awareness to even. And then I love, it's actually a good segue for my book, which is my debut novel, Witches of Calabasas, because I wrote this fiction book. It's fiction obviously, but it actually, even though there's magic in the book, and spells, and this heiress who's, like, a witch and, you know, so a fictional, entertaining book, the underlying message was actually about the illusion of manifestation. That's, like, why I wrote it, 'cause everybody's so obsessed right now with having a magic wand to make all your problems go away. And what the, what I wanted is the book to be written in a way where the as the narrator is being seduced by magic, and illusion, and wealth, and fame, the reader is also being seduced by it. And by the end, the narrator and the reader hopefully both realize that the real magic is to be human, to be honest with yourself, and there's a time in this book where each one of them needs to be really honest with themselves. And you lived in LA, not only lived in LA, like me, I'm from, I'm from LA. Not only did you live there, you were in the industry that I was in And in the entertainment industry, there's this like, what happens is like I like the metaphor of California being uh, the earthquake. It destroys everything. It breaks down, the city collapses, and then we have to rebuild it. So when I was in Northridge during the Northridge quake of like, I think it was '96, '94 or '96, I was like eight or nine years old, and I remember the mall had like cracked in half, the freeways had collapsed, and we rebuild it, and we rebuild it new. And that's what people do when they move to California. They break down the persona of who they've always been, and this is now their chance to build up the persona of who they've always wanted to be. You know, you see like a farm girl or a farm boy or whatever move into California, and all of a sudden they're Brad Pitt or whoever, right? They've created this persona. Even like you know, it takes place in Calabasas, so think of like the Kardashians, who live in Calabasas. They've built the persona of this image, of this illusion. The pressure, the struggle, the all of that comes with maintaining that image and that mask is what this book is about, and also about the people who are in proximity of them, like my narrator, who moves from Texas as a writer to LA to be a writer, rents out the guest house, realizes she's a witch. He's very seduced by the fame, by the power, by the magic, only to realize in the end, "I don't want magic. I don't want a magic wand. I like being human. I like going through things this way, and I don't wanna maintain this mask. And I don't wanna stop asking questions." You know, it gets like when you're around certain people and the illusion of it, and you're so seduced by it that you just don't ask questions of like, "Should we be doing this? Is this okay? What..." Like, you know, it's like that's the whole point of this book in the background. It's not really said overtly. It's kind of what is kind of the light language behind the words, you know? It's like that's the messaging that's there

[1:11:39]

[Luke] I relate to that a lot. When I moved to Hollywood as a little country bumpkin when I was 19- That's exactly what happened. You know? I was like, "Oh my God, I'm finally..." Felt like I was somewhere that was home, you know? Mm. And found belonging, but in order to find that belonging, I had to create this avatar that was tribally associated- Yeah... with the people with whom I felt I wanted to belong at the time, you know? You And got very lost...

[Frank] Really good at it too, though, but yeah. You know, my first job in Hollywood right out of high school was I worked at Saddle Ranch. Do you remember Saddle Ranch?

[Luke] Oh, on Sunset Boulevard?

[Frank] Yeah. Yeah. It was my first job They had, they had

[Luke] The bull. The bull. Yeah, dude. I,

[Frank] One time I was the bull I was the bull operator. Another time I was a waiter, a, you know.

[Luke] That's funny.

[Frank] It was so funny. It was my... But you know, at that time, like, Paris Hilton would come in all the time, and Hugh Hefner and all the... And they would... You know, we'd become friends with them. They'd invite us to their parties. We, I went to Les Deux with, like, Paris Hilton. I went to-

[Luke] Oh my God...

[Frank] The mansion I forgot about that

[Luke] Place...

[Frank] Yeah. It was like, it was a wild kind of place. now I don't know what it is. You know, who knows? I

[Luke] Doubt- This is, like, in the early '90s?

[Frank] No. it was like 2006. Oh, okay.

[Luke] Oh,

[Frank] Okay. 2007. Yeah. Yeah.

[Luke] You're a bit younger than I.

[Frank] It was 2007. Yeah. I was, like, right out of high sc- 'cause I graduated in 2006, and then I moved a year later. So probably 2007. And it was funny because she this guy, I remember, if, when you just said, "I was a country pumpkin and I moved to Hollywood and built..." I thought all of a sudden I had a flashback that I'd forgotten about this guy. I don't know why I'm remembering him now. He was like 19 or 20 years old, and he was like this hardcore punk rock guy. He just comes in as like a regular guy to eat, right, with his friends, and they're all heavy metal. Like, they're all wearing black. They all have mohawks. They all have tats and earrings and the whole thing. And I'm like he orders a drink, so I'm like, "ID, please." You know, he gives me his ID. I'm looking at it, and it's the preppiest, and his ID, this like total preppy clean cut, and I look at him and he goes, "Shh."

[Luke] Oh, that's funny.

[Frank] It's like, that's what it is, you know? It

[Luke] Was like his Kansas identity.

[Frank] Totally. It was definitely an out-of-state, like, yeah, license.

[Luke] Yeah. He's just reminded me of something funny. When I when I moved to LA, I was 19, as I said, and so, but I started playing in bands, and we're playing in 21 and over bars and stuff. Mm-hmm. So it became problematic. Obviously, I couldn't get in the bar that I was playing, and one day you know, by the grace of God, I found a driver's license on the sidewalk, and it was a very dark-skinned Latino guy, probably 5'6". I don't know why I remember this 'cause I don't remember much from that era, but I remember the name Manuel Luis Cordova. That was the name. Wow. I guess I had to memorize it and, you know, to try to get past bouncers, and dude, I used that ID for two years. I just went to every bar in Hollywood. Like Do they

[Frank] Believe it or they just don't

[Luke] Care? I'd hand them this like Mexican kid's ID, and they're just like, "Oh yeah, cool. It looks good." And then finally one day, one of the bouncers at a club called Coconut Teaser, who was a big Mexican guy, looks at my ID, looks at me, and he's like, "Get the fuck out of here." But I said, "Dude, I'm playing in 10 minutes." Like, and they ended up letting me in to play the gig, and then I turned 21 shortly after that.

[Frank] Man, I was a club promoter in West Hollywood at 19.

[1:14:40]

[Luke] Really?

[Frank] I'd be in there getting people in. I'd be the one... I don't know how we, I don't remem- I have no recollection of going through doors or anything. I just remember I'd be there. From 19 till 21, I was a club promoter.

[Luke] Wow.

[Frank] And me and my friend Andrea, and I remember she was a model, and I was like a college student, and this is what we did. And so I'd be like at Les Deux with Paris Hilton, like those people I was saying earlier, and I wasn't supposed to be there. I was 19 years old.

[Luke] Wow. You ran game, son. I

[Frank] Got-

[Luke] It was a different era. It was a different time.

[Frank] It

[Luke] Was a

[Frank] Little It definitely was. Yeah... it was

[Luke] A little more Wild West.

[Frank] Yeah, it was. Right. Yeah. It was. You just walk in with a certain group of especially if you walk in with like four girls and they're all models, and like they wouldn't care. They'd be like, "All right, everybody sh-" you know, you just walk in. Like there were ways

[Luke] I spent a long time adding healthy habits to my daily routine, but it wasn't until I started paying attention to what was really draining me that everything changed. Here's the short version of the story. Years ago, I lived under two massive cell towers in LA. No matter how clean I ate or how many health protocols I followed, my sleep was terrible, my nervous system was fried, and I felt awful. So that experience sent me down the rabbit hole of man-made EMFs and how to reduce their effects. And that's exactly when Leela Quantum became a key part of my strategy. Here at home, I use their quantum block to create a more coherent environment. And when I'm out and about in the world, I wear their Heal360 capsule. It's quantum charged with these little titanium spheres that generate a coherent field around the body. The result of that is that I get home feeling more like myself, especially after travel or long days in EMF-heavy environments, which heads up is any urban area. And when I'm flying or expecting higher exposure, I take it a step further. That's where I add their EMF-blocking clothing. It shields against 99% of measurable wireless radiation. So if you don't want to spend your life living in a Faraday cage and you want to be healthy at the same time, here's what you do. Visit lukestory.com/LeelaQ. That's L-E-E-L-A-Q. And if you use the code LUKE10, you're going to get 10% off your first order. Now, obviously, we can't avoid the modern world, but you can move through it with much more resilience. And that's why you want to get over to

[Frank] Lukestory.com/LeelaQ.

[Luke] Let's talk about, uh cults and cultish things, you know? This is something-- This is my favorite genre of TV show. Mm. Well, that and, like, nature survival shows. But Allison knows, like she'll always be like, "Dude, I got a show for you." There's a lot of cult shows, and I've been in a couple pretty cultish situations. Yeah. But the ones that I find most fascinating are ones that are kind of using the guise or premise of personal development or spirituality. And I know that spiritual seekers, myself and so many others, are very susceptible to finding community and finding a sense of belonging, that it's very easy to get seduced by non-integris or nefarious characters that are just seeking to exploit. Yeah. So I don't-- Do you have any experience with that, or what have you observed in that realm?

[1:17:58]

[Frank] I've seen cultish things, but I've never-- I've always had really good discernment. Like I my intuition is so wild, where I just... Even if I'm like, "God, I really wanna be in this room," but I'm gonna leave, you know? I don't know. It's, "There's something not here for me," or something or whatever it is. But I posted a reel the other day, and the first line, like the hook of it, was, "Every celebrity that you follow is one action or one decision away from becoming a cult leader." You know, they, imagine they have millions of followers. They have people listening and hanging on every word. Very easy for somebody who has that much charisma and power to become a cult leader. And that book was actually that reel, sorry, was talking about my book, because it's about my main character, Candace Winters, and how easy it is for her. She's really on that razor edge of heiress, cult leader, heiress, cult leader. She throws these big, magnificent Gatsby-like parties, but he starts to realize that they're actually an enchantment. You know, they're keeping everybody under her spell and her mystique and this image that she's built up. And then the people that follow her are like... I mean, not follow her, like, that are in her friend group. There's like five of them. It's a small group, and she's given each one of them a power, like an ability. All of them are terrified of her, and yet they worship her. They love her, but they're constantly seeking her approval. They're constantly afraid that she's mad at them. You know, it's like, it's like very much cult leader mentality. And again, I love that you're saying all this. You're very intuitive because it's like all those themes were what I actually wanted, but put into fiction. It could've been a memoir. These are all basically people I know, by the way, famous actors that I knew a Barry's Bootcamp instructor who used to be a Broadway star. It's like Steven and the... Like, the, all these people are people I knew. But I turned it into fiction because it can reveal so much more than a headline could or more than a memoir could. Or-

[Luke] Also helps you avoid lawsuits.

[Frank] I was gonna say, and it's protecting me, too, yeah. And honestly, like, then it also, like, no one is off limits, you know? It's not about a certain person or about a ZIP code 'cause then you could easily say, "Oh, well that's Marilyn Manson." You're like, "It's not..." But this is about who's the Candace Winters in your life? Who's the Candace Winters that you're following, that you see, that, you know, that has that, where magic is done. In the book, every time there's a magic spell or magic it's done, it's done with, like, a crooked smile. You know? Kinda like, see what I did there? Like, it's for, it's in order to manipulate. It's never kind of done for just the fun of it or whatever. It's always done with a little bit of crookedness, you know, to control, to manipulate. And then eventually it gets so out of hand, and that's what the book is really about by the end, the climax and all that they know none of these people, no one in the book is safe. No one can hold onto the mask that they're holding. No one can... It's like, it's basically like what happens when ancient powers meets 90210 problems.

[Luke] Oh, wow.

[Frank] You know what I mean?

[Luke] Wow. I can't imagine writing fiction. I feel like that would be so difficult.

[Frank] I love it.

[Luke] Really?

[Frank] I love it so much. Yeah. It was-

[Luke] Wow.

[Frank] It's, like, my third one, but the first one that I've published.

[Luke] Oh, really?

[Frank] But I just, like, I've written so many of them 'cause I just like the process.

[Luke] Going back to the the idea mentioned earlier of the fallen Mm... you know, where- someone is, you know, on the, on the path to ascension and self-realization, yet they get sideswiped or co-opted at some point and become corrupted when they might have been authentic at some point. another aspect of that is really interesting to me is that you have, like, completely fallacious characters that take on an identity so knowingly and intently- Yeah Solely for the purpose of amassing wealth- Mm-hmm... power or whatever, right? But then you have teachers or, you know, a persona, public personas or and so on that that do have authentic gifts and are seduced into the dark side, yet their gifts still work. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, in other words, they still have their powers- Mm-hmm Which is really- There's

[1:21:51]

[Frank] One that I've interviewed...

[Luke] Really weird to me. Yeah. and I had an experience like this with a teacher that I followed very closely for many years. I mean, not a public person, just a mentor I had. And he-- I mean, I credit him still with saving my life, much like the Mm Boarding school I went to. I mean, it was very dysfunctional and inappropriate in so many ways, but it still helped Mm.

[Frank] Mm-hmm...

[Luke] Which has been something that's kind of difficult for me to reconcile. I think about this particular teacher and just how when I would be in his presence, I would just feel, like, instant peace. And during that time, it was in early recovery, and I was just a basket case. I mean, I was just fight or flight 24/7- Mm-hmm... just completely out of my mind. 'Cause I was sober, and I didn't have the anesthesia that had helped me, you know, navigate the world. And I would... Even calling him on the phone, he would say one word, and I'd just be like, "" Oh, wow. "Someone just let the air out of my suffering," you know? So he truly had spiritual powers. Or sometimes he would just look me in the eye, and I would just start crying. You know, like, he really had a gift. He was very connected to God. Mm. Yet he also had a lot of unresolved issues and a lot, a lot, a lot of really horrific trauma that he just had never addressed, which is probably the root of some

[Frank] Of You know, this is super common

[Luke] Stuff. But then, you know, then the way he rolled ended up being very controlling and, you know, all of, any, like, if you could name the top 10 signs of a cult, like, that was our little crew, you know? And he was at the head of it, you know, pitting people against one another- Oh,

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] Ostracization and these kind of tactics and tools.

[Frank] Like narcissism.

[Luke] Creating dependency- Personal-... you know, where like, "Oh, you'll never make it on my own. If you leave-" Yes, yeah... "like you're gonna go back to your suffering," and so on. But even looking back on that, it's so weird to me. I can't really reconcile like, okay, his spiritual gifts were real, yet also the dysfunction Mm Control and the cult part of it was also real.

[Frank] I wonder- It's interesting 'cause for me there is no distinction. That is what happens. So any any people who have like siddhis, that's the biggest warning against powers, attaining powers, is that they say, "Don't get, like, don't even use it. As much as you can, don't do it." It's the perfect, it's like the perfect trap for the ego. It's final trap. It's the last thing it can do. It's the last way of like, "Look how powerful you are." And the, all these masters in this lineage and all the real ones like the Ramana Maharshis and all that, they could do these things. Ramana Maharshi, there's a story of him giving a piece of... You know, they do darshan, so they just hand Yeah... like bread or offerings or whatever it is, grapefruit, whatever it is. He gave a piece of bread to everybody. One of them had leprosy, and he was shunned, you know, from his village. He had leprosy. And it went away in that instant and he never had it again from just eating a piece of bread from this guy's hand, right? This master's hand. The next day, he comes back with his friend who had, has leprosy, and he's like, "Hey, we want him to get a piece of bread from Guru." And they say, "He won't come out. He won't do it. But here, there's like a whole plate of darshan right here. Just take it." And they refuse. They're like, "No, it has to be from his hand." Later, they asked Ramana Maharshi, his disciple's like, "Why wouldn't you give him the piece of bread?" And he says, "Because then I will be the miracle worker." Then I will be the miracle worker, and then there will be people outside every day wanting miracles, and I will now have become the miracle. That's my image now. I'm the-- That is my identity of I am the miracle worker. And so they warned heavily about, like, look, when you do this path, things have been happening with me. I'm not even talking about it because I'm noticing things. And I tell Anjuman, she'll say, "Good, now go beyond it. Don't stick to it. Don't attach to it." And so it's good to have a it's really good to have a master. If you don't... Like, I used to argue so much with these gurus of like, "You don't need a master, the plants and this and that." It's like, you need a guru. I don't wanna waste any more lifetimes doing this without a teacher, you know? Without somebody who's done it. For real. Without somebody who's done it. I don't want my ego to be like, "I can do this on my own." Like, I'm done doing that. Like I-- this is my last one, and it's only by the grace of the ones who have realized before me and want nothing else but for you to realize. Like, that's all they want. They want nothing else. They have no care for their own body. They don't want anything. And so I've met this is-- we're talking 10 years ago, before I could even grasp what I'm saying right now. And I had I've done-- I did YouTube videos with a woman who could levitate. I did another one with a woman who could manifest diamonds from her mouth. I have it all on camera. Another woman who, like, she would, in this one's in Germany, the other two are Indian. In Germany, she could put a spoon here and just go like this with her eyes, and it would start like that. She could go like this with her hand from here, and then I would go, "Do the other way." And she'd go like that, and it just, it's turning. Like full on telekinesis. Like all this stuff I've seen. And yet, for some reason, by the way, all these people have offered for me, 'cause I made videos, they'd all go super viral, for me to come to India or to Germany or wherever and to learn it. Not once did I say yes.

[1:26:44]

[Luke] Hmm.

[Frank] For some reason, I always-- even though back then I didn't know what I'm saying now about getting about spiritual powers, I never wanted to do that. I didn't want... And then even the one that I ever did learn was the, my videos originally on YouTube that got like 40 million views from like Five videos were like all these third eye videos where we would tape their eyes shut, we would blindfold them. This is actually how telepathy tapes found me, 'cause I was doing these videos 10 years ago, and people are just now starting to talk about this thing. And we would tape their eyes shut, blindfold them, and I did it with Indian people, with people in Utah, like Mormons. I did it with people in Mexico, with Russians. Like, I was going all over the world documenting this phenomenon. And so then I was like, "You know, I should go learn this." And I did, and I even then invited other people to come learn with me, like YouTube followers, and about like 20 people came. And we went to Germany, and we learned it. I'm on the street, literally blindfolded, eyes shut, and they're taking it. I'm reading license plates. I'm telling them what's across the street. I mean, I'm doing the whole thing. I got home, and I never practiced again, and it's been six years. Not once have I picked up the blindfold. I have them. Sometimes I'll meditate with it on, but not once have I tried to do that again. It's like, okay, cool, I did it. I know that there's something beyond the eyes seeing. I don't feel the need to for what? Like, for entertainment? For... I don't know. I don't feel the pull to do that or to get probably more so not to get lost in that.

[Luke] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[Frank] You know, and start showing off and going on what's that talent show? Like, X Factor or something, and going on stage with my blindfold- Right... and being like, "What?" You know? Then it's, now I'm performative.

[Luke] Right.

[Frank] And again, like, I kind of like you with the jet, what I baffle with sometimes is I'm like, "Am I doing the right thing by... I worked so hard, you know, in this life." I, again, is a subjective I for the sake of conversation. Of, like, building this brand and helping people and everything. I'm like, "Should I be doing retreats where I take people's money and do manifesting, or should I..." And then I just always get back to, no, I'm content. I'm content. I don't need more fame or more power or more wealth. if people wanna work with me, they can for the next probably year or two is before I'll probably stop. I was actually telling Allison before, I can't see myself still doing energy healing and energy work for the, for more than the next year or two. I don't know, of course. I don't-- I'm just gonna let it unfold as it does. But I'm, I think it'll start being something like blessings and some things like helping people on their path and less of a, of a, like identifying with their story in order to help them. Mm-hmm.

[Luke] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And having to meet them at their illusion in order to help them.

[Luke] Right.

[Frank] I'm seeing miracles every day, so I still wanna continue it for now until I figure out what that next thing is. There's no rush. I'm not putting any but I can see already how it's starting to change.

[Luke] Yeah.

[Frank] You know?

[Luke] Well, I think the point you raised about Keeping that self-honesty and self-inquiry alive because the ego's just waiting in the wings For sure To just grasp onto anything it can to reassert itself. Yeah. You know? It's like a, something I wrote in my book. It's like a a, you know, when a dictator is overthrown, it's like they're not gone. They're just waiting for the opportunity- Yeah... to jump back in and pull another coup. Yeah. You know? And that's how it's been with ego for me. I mean, not so much anymore, but in the early days, as I said, that trip to India, it's like I was so sincere in my desire Yeah... to grow spiritually, right? And, you know, I come back and it's like, yeah, I grew spiritually, but the ego grew also.

[1:30:17]

[Frank] Yeah,

[Luke] Yeah. It became more sophisticated. Mm-hmm. And these fallen gurus that have these, you know, capacities for miracles, these siddhis, you know, the ones that didn't have the guidance like, "Hey, keep it on the down low or it could overtake Yeah And, you know, turn dark." There's a, there's an Indian mystic named Sri M.

[Frank] Oh, yeah. Yeah. He manifests the rudraksha on TV.

[Luke] Yeah, my friend Jeff Covert turned me on to him, and there was like one real low-key video someone had of him just sitting here talking like this and they're like, "Do the thing. Do the thing with the vibhuti," you know? And he's just like kind of laughing, and he just goes like, "Poof." And just, "Poof"- Ah... where a bunch of ash just comes out of his hand. And he's like And he's like, "Oh, do more," or whatever, and he's like, "Nah, done." Good,

[Frank] Good.

[Luke] And he won't really do it, you know? I like

[Frank] That.

[Luke] And I'm like over here like I'm really fascinated by that kind of things. I'm like, "Where's more videos?" Yeah. It's like, there are no more videos. Yeah. He just, he just felt called in that moment to be like, "Okay, I'll humor you."

[Frank] Yeah. "

[Luke] Poof, there, I can do it. Big deal. That's not what the point is." And

[Frank] That's the point is to show you that it's not a big deal. Look, okay, cool.

[Luke] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And

[Frank] What did Jesus say? You can do this and more. Right. People forget that all the time. 'Cause I think of like, he was a guru. Jesus was a guru. He went, allegedly, there's so many books, you know, back when I was still into history and all that stuff, and now I don't care about anything, but at the time, I really loved those missing years of Christ, right? 13 to 33. And there's so much evidence that he was in Tibet and India, like uncanny evidence. There's ancient texts that they're not recreated from thousands of years ago calling a man Isha and say, or Isa, and saying he came from the, from the, from a Western, more West than we are from India. And in Tibet, there's a hidden scroll that only two people have been able to see. I think it was like French philosophers. And the way they were meant to see it was really crazy. Like, they were told, "No, you can't see it." He came to go see it, and on his way back, like only a few feet from the ashram, he broke his legs and had to go back and be, live with them for two months while they put him, nursed him back to health. And before he left, they let him see it. And he like, he documents everything from those two months with such meticulous detail that everybody was like, "Okay, this is true," right? Like, there's so much detail. They have not since showed it to anybody. And then in recent years, they started saying, "No, no such book exists." But before that, they would just say like, you know, "Well, we can't show it." But but my point to saying that is in Tibet, in India, if you think about the things he was saying, "I am the only, I am the way. The way through God is through me. I am the truth. I am..." It's what the gurus say. But because it was never said in the like you know, you could walk around and see any wandering baba saying that in India, right? But in, and that was not something that was being said in the, in the Middle East, in the Arab world. And so, or in the Jewish world. And so what was happening is he's there and he's saying these things and they go, "Oh, he is the way. This is God. He came." But he's just saying what the gurus are saying, that you can do this and more. Everything is in you. Find, you know? And then using the analogy of like God and Son because it's a very useful, helpful imagery. For some, like this is not something that goes back thousands of years in that region, so you have to give parables, you know, the way like the Bhagavad Gita gave parables, the way Vaishnava Yoga gave parables in the beginning, and then they weren't needed as much anymore later.

[1:33:27]

[Luke] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] But he was like, I mean, I don't, you know, this could be all wrong. I'm just saying like this is how I see him, is like he was a self-realized being. But they say they they took everything so literal because they had never heard this before.

[Luke] Right. Right.

[Frank] You know?

[Luke] Yeah.

[Frank] He is the way. He said he was the way. Well, yeah, so do all the gurus in like India who are walking around saying, "I am the way. Follow this path and you'll be on, and you'll, you can do this and more."

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[Frank] You. That's activationproducts.com/luke, and the code is Luke.

[Luke] What does the Course in Miracles say about the illusion of separation? I know you've spent some time with that teaching, and like all of the non-dual teachings that we've been discussing, the Course in Miracles, to me, in terms of Western ideology, is the closest to that. 100%. But it's coming from a Christian, ultimately a Christian perspective.

[Frank] Yeah, it's very Christ-rooted.

[Luke] Yeah.

[Frank] It's my favorite Western book probably in history in this, in this, in this... I've done the whole book three times with all the practices- Really?... and everything. Yeah.

[Luke] I've only made it up to, like, two weeks.

[Frank] Really?

[Luke] Yeah, and I With the

[Frank] Teachings?

[Luke] Yeah. Oh, with the lessons? With

[Frank] The workbook. The daily lessons? Yeah.

[Luke] Yeah. Oh, Interesting. Yeah, it's just like I, you know, I get into it, but I'm not someone that's that great at consistency when it comes to things like that.

[Frank] I've read the text twice, and then I did the workbook three times. I will say the, after the non-dual experience is when I started doing it for the third time, and it was though... I felt like it was the only and first time I ever did it, 'cause I realized, like, before I had always been reading it from the body identification, and then now I don't. So when you re-read it from a non-dual mindset or lens, vantage point, the whole thing is a new book. It's insane. I will say it is the closest thing I've ever seen, even to, like, when I look at the teachings of Nisargadatta Maharaj and all the greats in that lineage, it's actually like they're kinda saying the same thing.

[1:37:01]

[Luke] Totally.

[Frank] They're really saying the same thing. They're doing it in a way that's not... It is in a Christic terminology, but it actually, if you think about it, goes even beyond because, like, a person who is a traditional Christian would probably call that book heresy Or say that it's not, you know, it's a, it's a deception, it's the devil, you know? But it's, like, it's actually so deep and so real. And like they say, for example, God himself is incomplete without you. And what do the masters say? That if God appears in a meditation, know that you are the master. Your presence is necessary for God to appear. So it's the same thing. It's saying God is dependent on you. God's-- God himself is incomplete without you. They say things like, I mean, every... the whole point of A Course in Miracles is to kill that identification with body, with ego, with body, with ego. And I actually, if I didn't have this path of my lineage, like they're giving me a specific mantra, specific bhajans, all that, I would probably have just stuck with A Course in Miracles because it gives you a very clear workbook. And you probably, if you can't give it more than two weeks, probably because you're more advanced already than the first two weeks, because it starts with, like, lesson one is like, "I don't know what anything is for." I don't know anything. Just walk around all day and just say, "I don't know what anything means. I don't know what this plant means. I don't know what this book means." Yeah, I remember that one. I don't... But, and then, like, by the second, then you're like, "Okay." But for some people, lesson one and two are like, "Whoa!" It's like, "I've never heard anything like this before." But what happens, you start to realize, "Oh, they gave me lesson five so that I could understand lesson 15." And then when you get to lesson 15, you're like, "Oh, I needed lesson 15 to understand lesson 30." You know? So they're kind of like priming you little by little with very simple ideas, and then it gets, like, so deep of, like miracles, you know? Just like the real, the actual ammunition behind miracles. And you know how I say, like, all the masters, the real masters say siddhi powers are a distraction and they're not They're actually an illusion. They're an amazing illusion within the illusion, right?

[Luke] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] The illusion of power. A Course in Miracles says miracles are a distraction, and they're not the ultimate truth. But they say they're a necessary illusion to wake your brothers and sisters up. So they want you to do a miracles so that you're... Like Jesus, they say, so Jesus, you know, it's written from the standpoint of, like, Holy Spirit. So it's saying Jesus did miracles to show people to wake you up from the illusion. 'Cause if he was just walking around on a donkey, you know, telling you like, "Hey, you're... God loves you," and you'd like, "Okay, freak," like, "Get out of here." But if he's like, "Poof, you're not blind anymore," people are like, "Listen to this guy. He knows what he's talking about." Right. So they say, like in A Course in Miracles are an illusion, but they're a necessary illusion. So it's the same exact thing. It's like exactly what the masters are saying, that meditation and miracles are illusions, but they're necessary illusions in the beginning. Mm. By the way, even the masters in this lineage, they say you're not gonna need to meditate forever. It's just a few years into this practice or until the conviction is there, then it's happened spontaneously and automatically. You will be in a state of meditation. There's no more need for it. This is a beautiful path, 'cause they're like, "Look, just follow this for a few years. Just give it a few years. Don't take my word for it. Do it."

[1:40:23]

[Luke] That's funny, 'cause that's really what I aspire to, is to have meditation just be a way of being.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] Right? Which I'm getting better at doing, just having that self-awareness, going back to what we were talking about earlier, the driver cuts you off and like-

[Frank] Mm-hmm...

[Luke] The instinct to throw up the middle finger. It's like way before the hand is moving, there's a watcher going, "You're okay."

[Frank] Yeah. "

[Luke] Let it go," right? So it's like I'm in a meditation driving down the freeway in a sense, right? Because there's a separation between me as the one who's experiencing and the ultimate experiencer who's watching over me driving down the road.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] And like more in touch with that guy who's kind of floating up here watching Luke do his little thing.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] You know?

[Frank] And that guy is you, and so is the guy who cuts

[Luke] You off.

[Frank] Yeah. And so is the space in which it's happening.

[Luke] Right. Right. You know? Very cool, man. I

[Frank] Mean, it's like I can't separate myself from that anymore. Like it's, that's why it's hard, 'cause I can talk to you about that, but it's so hard to have conversations with people now.

[Luke] Oh

[Frank] My God. Even day to day.

[Luke] Dude, you just brought me to a really good point. So Is another one of the things like, "Oh man, I wish I would've included this in my book because it would've been helpful to people." But I've found that as I continue to grow and become more developed, there are fewer people on the planet with whom I resonate. Yeah. You know, which can be very kind of isolated, and I know this is something a lot of people go through as they're on their spiritual path, and it's like really what they're seeking is connection.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Luke] And so we start refining ourselves and, Yeah... you know, getting an understanding of the limitations, the ego, the intellect, all of these things, right? Attachments, aversions, all the, all the things. And then as you start to become more awake, it's like you're rising to higher and higher elevation and, like, there's fewer people on parachutes with you up there. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's not from a place of of judgment, it's just, it's just a truth, right? It's Just

[Frank] Resonance, like you said.

[Luke] Yeah. Yeah... you know, you just go into any public gathering or public place where there's a lot of people. For me, what I've noticed is my nervous system can't really handle a lot of people, and also, say like parties are kind of my kryptonite. You know, I don't... Someone's like, "Hey, come to my party." I'm like, "Uh, I'm already out." You know? Mm-hmm. You called it a party, it means it's gonna be very un-fun for me usually. If there's more than five, six, seven, 10 people, I'm kinda maxed out. 'Cause what happens is I'm gonna have to filter through a lot of people to find resonance with one person. Yeah. 'Cause what I really wanna do is sit down with one, two, three people and really connect on a deep level and have some authentic intimacy to really- Yeah... be inspired by one another or learn from one another or just to be able to share a similar perspective or kind of consciousness Mm-hmm, mm-hmm And so it's interesting that as we tend to grow spiritually, we become more comfortable in solitude than around people. Yeah. And it sounds like that's been part of your journey, you know, moving out to Joshua Tree. Has that been part of it, that-

[1:43:28]

[Frank] It's most of

[Luke] It all, yeah... A, you need, like, you need physical bodies around you Yeah... because you're connected to something beyond the physical. But also, it's like I just, it's difficult for me to be around people who are still very ego identified. Mm-hmm. And again, this is, like, not a holier than thou thing. Like, I've been-

[Frank] Yeah, it's not a judgment. It's just like, you know what feels it's-

[Luke] It's just a matter of resonance... not there anymore. Yeah. Yeah, it's a matter of resonance. Yeah. It's like, uh-

[Frank] It's just like we have nothing to talk about... we

[Luke] Were talking about music before, right? And it's like, there was a time in my life listening to the Sex Pistols or Metallica was, like, totally in resonance. Like, that's the energy I felt in my Yeah... and spirit, and that's what I identified with. You put that on now, I'm like, a few bars in, I'm like, "Cool. I get it. That was Yeah,... in 1986." But, like, I'm just not in alignment with that, right? I just wanna listen to mantra and African blues and whatever, right? Yeah. It's like I just, I'm just in a different space. It doesn't mean that Metallica's bad and-

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] My mantras are good. There's in other words, there's not, like, a hierarchy or evaluation. It's just a matter of preference. So that being said, I find that there are fewer and fewer people with whom I actually wanna spend time with.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] And it's not not from an elitist place. It's just a matter of preference. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are like, you know, cranking Slayer all day that would hang around me and be like, "You're really boring."

[Frank] Right,

[Luke] Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's not that, you know, they're right and I'm wrong. It's just like I'm not in alignment with them. They're not in alignment with me either.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] You know? It goes both ways, right? It is.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] They're just like, "All you do is just sit around and meditate? Boring."

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Luke] So I guess the... I'm trying to, you know, like mine a question out of this this hole that I've dug, but it's There's a paradox in that, I think, of seeking connection at the beginning of our journey, and then as you start to get more connection, it's actually difficult to be around a lot of people.

[Frank] Yeah. It's why I moved to the desert, really why.

[Luke] So tell

[Frank] Me about I mean, because people would ask me, like, "Do you have a..." Like, I was living in the Hollywood Hills, and I love the mountains more than anything. Like, that's... If you could say, what's your climate that you... It's the mountains. And I'd go every day, like, walking around, and there's coyotes, and there's deer, and literally the freeway's right there, so I'm, like, in Hollywood still. But I'm in the hills, and so there's deer, there's coyotes, there's owls. You have... I'm in the hot tub, and there's owls. And it was an old retirement community where, like, you basically... everybody owns the units. They're, um... It's, like, HOA, you own it and all that. And so because it's an older community, it was like nothing was ever used. So I'd be the only one in the gym, the only one in the sauna. So I had already isolated myself. I'd go to the gym. I'd go to, like, Equinox and Erewhon, like, every day, and that was it. I'd get my food, my my groceries, my... the gym, and then I'd go back home. Like, I didn't... I wasn't around people. But I, for some reason... And actually, it's funny stories. Like, my unit that I lived in, like, my specific condo was the one that Margot Robbie lived in before she booked Wolf of Wall Street and bought a house.

[Luke] Oh, wow.

[Frank] And so it was like a really- Good, she took good energy... cool good energy, right? Yeah, as everybody would tell. That's why people told me when I first moved in. They're like, "You know, you used to live here. I hope it does the same for you." Like, they were always so nice. I loved that community. I loved the people. amazing. Like, we were all close. We'd pick up packages for each other every day. We'd go, "Hey, you have a package," and so and so. Like, "Hey, you want me to grab this for you? Are you out of town?" You know, like, always. "Do your cats need anything? I know you're in Texas." And I'd be like, "No, it's okay. They have a cat sitter. Thanks." "Okay, let me know if you want me to pop in." Like, always. So it was a nice community, and yet something in me was like, "You need to go somewhere isolated." And I didn't know if it was Shasta or Ojai, but for some reason, I kept thinking, like, Joshua Tree, Palm Springs, like, desert area. So I ended up just picking up one day and moving there, and I've been so happy. But it's interesting what you brought up about parties because in the two months that I've been there now, it's still fairly new, two and a half months, something like that, two months I've only gone to LA twice. One was for a friend's, like, dinner party, and even that was like, it was a dinner party, so there's, like, 20 people. It wasn't huge, or 15 people, something like that. And I just was in the corner talking to this, like, girl from Italy the whole time for like, three, four hours. So I was like you. Like, even then, I just found my little corner and just sat with her, and we talked the whole time and got... And then we ate at the end and left. And That same person was having a birthday party, beautiful Mount Olympus home, right? And I go-- I'm driving to his house, two and a half hour drive there, two and a half hour drive back. So just to go to his birthday party was already a big deal. I get to LA, and I was just like, "I don't wanna go to a party. I don't wanna... Like I don't wanna go to a party," even though I'd just driven the whole way. And so I just went to Next Health. I sat in the hyperbaric, I did some red light therapy, and I drove back to Joshua Tree.

[1:48:02]

[Luke] Really?

[Frank] Yeah. And you know what's crazy is like you'll appreciate this too from like also the health side, not just being so spiritual. But like driving into LA, I just see a big plume of smoke around the city that's just literally hovering around it, and light pollution. And then I'm driving back home in the opposite direction, and it's clear skies and no big buildings, and I was like, "That's where I wanna be." You know? And then I looked in the cars around me, 'cause I'm not used to traffic anymore, and everybody's scowling. Everybody's scowling or upset or like, you know, just like cutting each other off or looking at each other in a mean way. And I was just like, "Wow. When I was living here, I didn't notice it. I was just living in it." And then when you remove yourself even just for a few months and you come back, you're like, "Ooh, this is jarring. This is a heavy energy to be in

[Luke] Yeah, that's been my experience too.

[Frank] Coming back?

[Luke] Well, just being in any city. Yeah. I mean, even when we moved here, where we live now in this house felt super remote to me. Yeah. You know? 'Cause I lived in LA for 32 years just in the middle of Hollywood, and now, here, I feel that there's way too many people too close.

[Frank] Wow. Yeah.

[Luke] And if you... I mean, if you look out my windows, at least from the second floor, you don't even see any houses- No, just trees... just hills and trees. Yeah. And it's, it is kind of country.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] But I'm kind of already to the point where I'm like, "I think we need to be further out on more land." Oh. You know? Just, I just, yeah, I just don't wanna be around that many people. Mm-hmm. Which is funny, you know, spending the past two years really- Yeah... looking at loneliness and connection. It's just, it's Isn't that crazy?... a funny paradox, you know? But I hear this a lot from people. Yeah. They're like, "Yeah, I'm on the spiritual path, and I'm just not relating to my people anymore." Yeah. Right? And there's a, I think, a period of... Well, there's many kind of levels of acclimation, right? You kind of hit a certain stage, and then you acclimate to that, and it's a little uncomfortable, and then you find your place at that level, and those people that coexist on that level. And then it's like if they're, if everyone's kind of not going in the same direction, that sense of unity and connection just starts to kind of splinter, you know? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And you find, like, wow.

[Frank] Mm. I

[Luke] Only really have, like, two or three close friends that I really enjoy spending time with.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] You know? Yeah.

[Frank] That's so true.

[Luke] I guess it's also, like, part of getting older. I'm 55. Yeah. And so it's like, I don't know, how many, you know, how many months do I have left in this body? Not that many.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] You know, relatively speaking. It's like, do I really wanna sit and have a conversation like a superficial kind of small talk conversation with someone at a party? Not really. It's nothing against them. It's just like, wow, my time is becoming more valuable. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I value myself and my own energy more than ever. And so it's just yeah, it takes some getting used to, I think, for me to learn how to, how to operate in the world when I'm continually evolving, and I seem to be evolving to a place where I relate to fewer people.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] You know?

[Frank] And I think the acclimation part is very true, for sure.

[1:51:05]

[Luke] What about your romantic life? Do you have any aspirations to be in partnership?

[Frank] Man, that part of me also is, like, dying more and more. Sometimes I get on the... Like, I haven't been on the apps in years, and I was thinking about downloading it. And I was in a partnership up until February of this year, you'll probably relate to this 'cause without saying their name or giving any to identify there was an addiction, a drug addiction- Oh... that I didn't know about.

[Luke] Oh.

[Frank] And well, I knew that there was sobriety, and then when that got rocked, I just knew, I was like, "Hey, I'm here to support you and love you in any way you want as a friend, but I can't, you know? I just can't."

[Luke] Yeah.

[Frank] And that was really healing for both of us, I think. You know, we both needed that. But since then, and that was the first one in, like, a year and a half, and even since then, it's been, like, only six months, but there's... I kind of am at the point where I just wanna see if it happens without needing or wanting it. But I think also if the body needed some action, you know what I mean, I wouldn't deny it either. I'd be like, "Okay, go, like, have some fun," you know? Because I think that there's also if you try to fight it or resist it, you're making it more real than it is, where it's like the body needs something just like it might need a snack, and then you just give it the snack and then move on, right? Like, don't make it bigger than it needs to be or is. So I'm not opposed to, like Romance, sex, anything like that, intimacy. But I'm also not looking for it at this point right now because I also feel like, kind of like Allison was saying earlier about building more karma with more people when we were talking in the kitchen earlier. It's like, I don't know if I want to create more karma and more karmic links and someone... 'Cause I love strongly, so it's like if I see things happen, like, "Let me fix that. Oh, look, this is what you need to do, and this is like... We can do this," or, you know, or, "Do you need anything?" Or like I'm a very giving person, too, so I don't know if I wanna be, like, that pulled on right now, you know? Right. But I don't know. Every Vedic astrologer has told me that you'll get married in your, in your Venus-Sun dasha, which for me is next year.

[Luke] Interesting.

[Frank] Or you'll, that's when you'll have a serious partnership.

[Luke] Interesting.

[Frank] What I think is interesting with Vedic astro- with any astrology, but I only go by Vedic, is that marriage, though, and business partnerships are seen as the same thing in the chart. So they could be seeing a contractual relationship and saying either you're gonna have a very serious partner in that year, and it might not be marriage, it might be business.

[Luke] Right.

[Frank] Right. I don't know. So I just leave it open. I'm like, Yeah... well, let's see what happens.

[Luke] I wonder about that because even though I've learned to really appreciate and enjoy solitude, and Allison and I are so autonomous, I mean, when we're coexisting in the house, and we have a decent-sized house, so it's kind of easy to go off and do your own thing. Yeah. But I feel like we just naturally have fallen into a groove where, you know, we come together many times a day and connect, and oftentimes we're, you know, just doing our own thing, hanging around the house. We don't spend a lot of time outside of the house, especially me.

[1:54:13]

[Frank] Yeah. I

[Luke] Don't like driving especially at night. That's the thing. I realize, like, oh, now I know, like, old people won't drive at night. I'm like, yeah, I'm becoming one of those people. Wait,

[Frank] Why is that?

[Luke] I just hate it, and it's like I can't really see. It's just-

[Frank] Especially out here, right? 'Cause you're kind of out-

[Luke] Yeah...

[Frank] Further from, like, the city.

[Luke] Yeah. But anyway point I'm getting to is It's hard for me to imagine if I wasn't in such a beautiful and fulfilling relationship as I am with Allison, say I lived in this house- Mm-hmm By myself, would I still feel as comfortable as I do being by myself? In other words-

[Frank] Yeah, that's a good

[Luke] Point... like, part of the comfort that I have of not spending a lot of time with people and not having a lot of social activity is because Allison is here and she fulfills so much of that for me.

[Frank] It probably is way easier. Yeah. Because I will say, like, now that you say that, 'cause I didn't put... 'Cause, you know, when you're out of it, you don't really think about it. When I was, when I'm in it every, I would say, three and a half weeks, there's three or four days of stir crazy. And I'm like, "What am I doing? And I shouldn't have moved out here alone. I should be with somebody." And then it does, I start and then it softens and it goes away on its own, and I don't think too much into it.

[Luke] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] But I'll call a friend and I'll be like, "I think I need a date 'cause I can't be alone. I need to be married. I need to be, like..." You know? And I've been with men and women, and so for me I'm just like, "I don't, I don't care. I just need a partner. I need somebody who's looking at me." Which one's

[Luke] Easier to get along with?

[Frank] Men. But I've also never lived with a woman, and I think that would be very hard. Oh, okay. I've never even had a woman roommate. Like, I've always said I can't, I don't think I can live with-

[Luke] That's funny...

[Frank] A woman, but I don't know.

[Luke] I've always kind of secretly envied gay guys 'cause I'm just like, man, So

[Frank] Much easier...

[Luke] Well, men are just not that, as complicated, you know?

[Frank] It's... No, 'cause they'll even be like, "Hey, I, if I can we open up this marriage?" "Yeah, sure. Let's open it up. You hook up with people, I'll hook up with people." 'Cause it's like, sometimes you're like, "I'm not always gonna wanna do it," you know? Okay, cool. Like, there's like, it's a lot easier I feel like. And, you know, it's just guys are easy.

[Luke] Do you have any sense that if and when you know, you magnetize a partnership or feel called in some way to try to pursue that, what would be your preference?

[Frank] Oh, for sure a guy because I think I like safety and groundedness and protection, and just guys end up embodying that a lot more.

[Luke] Right.

[Frank] Also the attraction is stronger. Okay. But I would... Like, physical. But I think that, like I have a friend, and I did MDMA once, it was, like, four years ago. And I was like, "You and I should be together." And she's a, she's a girl. And, like, I was... I just saw it so strongly of, like, how with her... Like, so a certain woman I could, for sure. She's very much like a guy in a lot of ways. Like, she's very... She's gorgeous, model, like, beautiful, stunning, so, like, very feminine, but very much like a guy in the way she is, how she can make the dirtiest jokes, the vulgar jokes. She's just like, "Ah, I don't..." I would be like, you know? She's like... She's just really easy. And yeah, and also very much on the spiritual path and things like that. So, like, someone like that I think would be easy.

[Luke] So you're just leaving it up to God.

[Frank] Kinda leaving it up to God, yeah. I'm curious as to... I don't know. I'm curious, but-

[Luke] I'm curious...

[Frank] I also don't know if it'll happen.

[Luke] Yeah.

[Frank] You know? I'm also okay with, like I said earlier, of just, like, being alone and then just, like, whenever I need companionship, I have it

[1:57:20]

[Luke] Right. I don't, I don't think I could do that.

[Frank] You don't think you could... Are you casual? Have you always been somebody relationship to relationship? No.

[Luke] No?

[Frank] Oh,

[Luke] Okay. This is the first relationship I've ever felt completely fulfilled- Oh... and just disinterested in anything other than my wife. Yeah,

[Frank] It's beautiful.

[Luke] No, I was very promiscuous and love avoidant, and completely paranoid of any intimacy, and avoided it at all costs my entire life. but I've talked about this before. My meditation teacher and friend, Jeff Cobra, I remember years ago, You know, I was just in these terribly dysfunctional, toxic relationships, love avoidance, sex addiction, just, ugh, just a quagmire of two people with unhealed trauma- Mm... just festering- Mm-hmm... and driving each other crazy. And I called him one day and asked for help, and I was like, "I met this girl. Here's how we met. It started out just kind of we're trying to just have a casual thing, and then I got attached, and now, you know, I found out, like, she's nuts and whatever," right? And and he goes, "Okay." And he's just listening and listening, and he says to me, he goes, "Luke, man, just hearing you talk is amazing." He said, "I can't imagine anything as uncomfortable as being naked in a room with a woman I don't know or love."

[Frank] Hmm.

[Luke] And he said that to me, and I thought, "Are you gay?" You know? I was like, "What?" It literally couldn't compute. I was like, "What?" That's the whole point of life is to, like, keep doing that, to have that experience. Different

[Frank] Women, different, like-

[Luke] Yeah, 'cause that's just... You know, I was so empty in certain ways and lacked the capacity for a deeper, more meaningful connection. So physicality was, like, the only way I was able to fulfill that. And now I've reflected on that a lot because it's the first time in my life, like, I'm just... I couldn't be less interested in, like, oh, I'm missing out on this. You know, like, whatever. Yeah. I don't look at women when I'm out. It's just-

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] It's, like, nonexistent.

[Frank] But I'm even kind of having that as a single- So-... person now not being in a fulfilled relationship. Right. Like, 'cause a moment, like, yeah, there will be, I... There will be sexual attraction. Like, I might look still, but then there's no part of me that's like feels like it's missing out or even wants to go through the trouble of pursuit.

[Luke] Right. Right.

[Frank] Like, it's almost like, okay, when I weigh it out, then I realize, well, if you really did, you'd make an effort, so you clearly don't really actually want it as much Right You think or-

[Luke] Right...

[Frank] Like, it's just the impulse is there. You're catching the impulse, and then you're moving on. Just like I might have a craving for a burger, but I don't really eat meat, so I mean, I don't eat meat. Yeah.

[Luke] So

[Frank] I don't... Like, it might be there for a second, and then I'm like, oh, you know, whatever.

[Luke] It's just thinking about, you know, I don't even like hugging people that I don't feely that I don't fully feel an energetic match with, right? Oh, yeah. Or that has... Right? So it's like-

[Frank] Hmm...

[Luke] I don't even wanna spend time in the same room with someone, male or female, that I don't really feel alignment with, you know? Yeah. So it's like I'll transpose myself into my former self and be like, I mean, I would meet a woman, and I would have sex in five minutes if I could- Yeah... if that was gonna happen. You know what I mean?

[2:00:26]

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] It's like I didn't care where their psyche was at, where they were spiritually, mentally. It was just, like, a purely kind instinctual- Primal, right?... animal-

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] Primal thing, which you know, I guess is what I needed at that time. But yeah, just being so far away from that for so long now, it's like, oh my God, I just, I feel like it would be so awkward to just try to hook up with someone. I'm like, how did I even do that, you know?

[Frank] Dude, I have, Like, I wouldn't wanna-... had moments where I'm doing energy healing on them, like openly. Not like, oh, like through a trance. I mean, Yeah... no, literally I'd be like, "Hey, you know what? You have this thing. Can I just clear it?" And we'll sit there for like 30 minutes of me clearing, and then I'm just like, God, I just like, this is not gonna be somebody I date. Like, we're just, now I've changed the whole, I've shifted it, you know?

[Luke] Yeah.

[Frank] And they'll even message me sometimes, and they'll be like, "Oh my God, like everything's changing with my acting or my whatever." And I'm like, "That's great, awesome and cool." But like, I'm like, yeah, I have, I'm so clearly right now in just this healing mode, and like, I end up wanting to just help everybody Yeah And be that friend and be like, you know. And it's almost like it's, it becomes so non-sexual. Like, I'm like, are people sexually gonna be attracted to me anymore. Now I'm giving off this, like, mother energy, you know? Right. Like, this father, mother, like, nurturing energy now.

[Luke] Right.

[Frank] Which is probably not very attractive sexually.

[Luke] You don't have the-

[Frank] Whereas before, I was like-

[Luke] Yeah...

[Frank] I did okay, you know? Like, in my 20s, Yeah... I was I was good. And, like yeah. Now I'm just like, I don't have that.

[Luke] You're not giving off the thirsty energy.

[Frank] I'm not. Yeah. I'm giving off, like, "Oh, hey, do you have anything you need me to clear?" Like, you know? Like, that's what it is now.

[Luke] That's cool, man.

[Frank] And I'm, like, more interested in them, and, like, we'll talk, and then I'm just like... After a little bit, I just realize, like, I actually don't even... Even if it was, like, meant to be a hookup, you know what I mean?

[Luke] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Mm-hmm. Like, it's just not there.

[Luke] Wow. Well, man, it's been great catching up with you. Yeah, you too... I'm really stoked on your evolution, Thank you... where you are in your life right now. It's just really- Thank you... beautiful to share some space with Appreciate it... and just catch up, man. You as

[Frank] Well.

[Luke] It's like... And I really, I absolutely want to connect with your-

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] Your your person over in the UK there. It's funny. I had, I mean, I had an idea of what we would talk about, but I didn't really know we had kind of, we were gonna coalesce around a pretty close worldview and, like, a way of navigating through- I had no idea either... spirituality and life. You know? I'm like, wow, I had no idea Frank and I were totally aligned on- How we're, how we're rolling, you know? So it's been really inspiring to hear about where you are. And you know, as someone who's a former, like, chaser or seeker, Don't Stop Seeking- Yeah... read the book, go to the retreat, or go to the center. It's been a long time since I've felt, I don't know, that kind of drive. Yeah. And also a long time since I've met someone where I'm like, "Okay, they're on the next level. Like, I want Mm... I want a guru," you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it's yeah. It's really great to catch up, and also to see you following your intuition, and going and living on your own in Joshua Tree, and spending time alone- Oh, yeah And yet at the same time, finding ways to be of service and-

[Frank] Yeah...

[Luke] To be fulfilled, and to remain connected whether or not you're around people or not.

[2:03:29]

[Frank] Yeah. And if you ever if you ever need a good recharge, you've got a guest room in Joshua Tree.

[Luke] Well, Joshua Tree has special magic for Alice and I, you know. Yeah. I can

[Frank] Tell.

[Luke] Yeah. Yeah, that's where we became a couple.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] So that always holds a special place in my heart for that land and, you know, the mysticism of the desert. Oh, yeah.

[Frank] It's so

[Luke] Mysterious. It's not somewhere I've ever felt called to live because- Yeah... it doesn't feel like there's enough things living there. You know what I mean?

[Frank] No,

[Luke] No. I'm just like, It'd be a crime... am I supposed to be here? 'Cause everything else is dead. You know what I mean?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] It's a desert energy for me. I like to visit. Mm-hmm. I don't think it's somewhere I'd live. But that particular zone has its own unique- signature that I really enjoy.

[Frank] Yeah, it's powerful.

[Luke] Yeah. Yeah,

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] All right. Oh, so listen. Yeah. people should buy your book, and they can do so at lukestray.com/witches.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Luke] And I got the book here on video, Witches of Calabasas, for those watching. And I don't, I think I've only interviewed one other person that wrote fiction. Fiction? And that was Steven Pressfield, Mm... has written nonfiction too, but mostly fiction. And so it was interesting 'cause I hadn't read his book, and I haven't read your book 'cause I didn't have it.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Luke] So, you know, thankfully he didn't wanna talk about his book, but I'm like-... you know, he writes these massive tomes, right? And I'm just like, "Dude, I don't have two weeks to read your 450-page fiction book-" Geez... 'cause I don't really read fiction, you know?

[Frank] No, this one's less. It's, like, 250. It

[Luke] Looks, it

[Frank] Looks digestible.

[Luke] Yeah, it's digestible. But I, you know, I wanna encourage people to get your book, and also the show notes for this episode will be found at lukestray.com/frank2, the number two. And I will also link there your prior episode, which was number 398, and we'll put links to your socials and your website and all the things. If people wanted to work with you in your healing capacity, is that available publicly, or how does that

[Frank] Work? Yeah, it's available now. it's actually the best time because I've, for, since I first started when you and I probably almost first met about six years ago, I had a six-month wait list at all times. It never went down. And then because I've been promoting the book and going on, like, little tours and a former online course that I just ended, I, the, now I'm seeing clients again, so it's only, like, a month wait list, so it's pretty good.

[Luke] Cool.

[Frank] And yeah, it's frankalaridi.com, and there's a tab for energy healing at the top.

[Luke] Beautiful, man.

[Frank] Yeah. Thanks for joining me. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Luke] All right, you guys, that brings this one to a close. Thanks for listening and learning along with me. Now, if you've been tapped into this podcast for a while, you know I'm all about uncovering the hidden forces that impact our health, and one of the most overlooked and most dangerous is EMF in our homes. We all pay attention to our food, air, and water. We shop organic and use filters and air purifiers. But hardly anyone thinks about the invisible toxins humming through every wall, AKA electromagnetic pollution or electrosmog. And unfortunately, I learned this the hard way living under two massive cell towers back in LA. It destroyed my sleep, turned my brain to mush, and almost wrecked me completely until I finally figured out what was going on and how to fix it. And when I started putting together some really solid solutions, I knew I had to share them. So that's why I created my free EMF Home Safety Masterclass. It's over five hours of self-paced, expert-led training to help you detect and fix the EMF in your home so you can finally sleep, heal, and live without invisible stress. To find it, just go to lukestory.com/emfmasterclass where you can sign up for free. 'Cause once you know what to look for, the solutions are easier than you think. That's lukestory.com/emfmasterclass, or just click that link in the episode description where you can join my completely free training today. Oh, did I mention it was free? Yeah, seriously. Zero strings attached. Just click, watch, and learn

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