Morley Robbins: [00:00:06] Most people don't know what copper is. What they do know is, they know it's toxic and to stay away from it. Maybe there's more to the story. And I always appreciate opportunities like this to really begin to paint a much different picture. But there's only four things that copper does that I think are worth talking about, only four things. 

Copper creates energy. Copper clears exhaust, copper catalyzes enzymes, flush enzymes and involve oxygen, which is a big deal. And copper combats enemies. There's not one pathogen that doesn't cave in the presence of copper. Bacteria, fungus, virus, and parasites all cave in the presence of copper. I'm Morley Robbins, and this is the Life Stylist Podcast.

 Luke Storey: [00:00:58] My fellow humanoids, this is Luke Storey and I am here to deliver Episode 441 of the Life Stylist Podcast. You'll find all those tasty show notes, links, and transcripts for this one at lukestorey.com/morley. And here are just a few of the things you'll learn about the following and more with our guest today, Morley Robbins, how to deal with opposing views from health gurus; iron overload and dysregulation and copper Deficiency, the facts and the myths; how iron farm equipment and iron fortified foods led to our current state of iron toxicity; why so many people are misdiagnosed with anemia; why we should be careful supplementing iron; how blood donation can get rid of excess iron. 

We also talk about whether or not the lactoferrin in raw milk and colostrum helps to regulate iron; the massive role copper plays in energy production and why most people on the planet are deficient and why copper toxicity is so misunderstood; why foods like bee pollen and beef liver are essential for health, especially when it comes to copper; what to look for in a copper supplement. And then we dive deeply into the Full Monty blood panel and why it can provide the missing link to so many people's health conditions. 

Morely also shares why this particular test puts so much focus on copper, iron, ferritin, red blood cell, magnesium, and retinol levels. Then toward the end of this epic deep dive, our guest goes over my recent Full Monty tests and makes some stunning discoveries. We not only get into those topics, but many more. So I highly recommend that you stick it out for the duration of this conversation. Our guest, Morley Robbins, is the creator and founder of The Root Cause Protocol and the Magnesium Advocacy Group.

He received a BA in biology from Denison University in Ohio and holds an MBA from George Washington University in Health Care Administration. He's also trained in wellness coaching, nutritional counseling, and functional diagnostic nutrition. 

Now, I've been following this guy's work for years and have seen my health improve dramatically based on many of his recommendations, such as keeping my iron levels in check through regular blood donation, keeping myself fortified with copper and cod liver oil, as well as mega dosing magnesium. 

I believe Morley is really one of the smartest guys out there on the scene and has really done an incredible job finding the root causes to many issues versus just running around chasing symptoms where even some of the best in the functional medicine realm tend to get stuck. 

So I personally got so much benefit from this conversation as it cleared up so many questions I had not only about iron and copper, which by the way, spoiler alert, they are super important, but also about how to live with maximum energy and vitality, which is really my goal at the end of all of this biohacking stuff. 

So I am really excited for you to hear this one. And if you enjoy it as much as I did, please feel free to share it with some friends. Okay, let's jump right into this info bonanza with the legendary Morley Robbins on the Life Stylist Podcast. All right, Morley Robbins. Here we go. Man, it's been a long time coming. I'm so happy to have you on the show.

Morley Robbins: [00:04:15] Delighted to be here, Luke.

 Luke Storey: [00:04:17] This is going to be fun. I'm rubbing my hands together here like, I finally get to talk to someone who understands some of these issues that, frankly, I've been trying to trickle down to listeners of this show and people that follow me on social media, because I think after all these years of research, you've really created a model that's very useful. And my goal here today is to take the complexity out of it, if we can, because it's very complex and just give people actionable steps.

But before we do that, I want to ask you something that I have, for every other podcast, asked the guest at the end, but I just thought of it today and I thought, I'm going to ask at the beginning. So I'll start with this question. Who have been three teachers or teachings in general that have influenced your life or your work that you could share with us?

Morley Robbins: [00:05:07] Oh, my God. Wow. Beautiful question. Only three?

 Luke Storey: [00:05:14] I know it's tough. It's tough to narrow it down.

Morley Robbins: [00:05:17] I would say that the scientist that has impressed me the most is Albert Szent-Györgyi. And people certainly know him because of his involvement with vitamin C, but he was absolutely just a legendary thinker. And people don't know about the internecine warfare that was taking place in science back in the 1920s. But there was a guy named Rick Weiland fighting with a guy named Otto Warburg. And they were trying to gain supremacy about what was more important, hydrogen or oxygen to make the mitochondria work. 

And the other picture, these big titans, these guys were huge in their fields at the time, and it was just lonely little Albert Szent-Györgyi  who was just brilliant. He said, "Well, actually, you're both right." He published this article in 1925 that just totally synthesized everything. It was just amazing. So I think it's just such a fresh and creative thinker, very, very powerful. 

Probably the teachers that really influenced me a lot, tremendous minds, one would be Leslie  Klevay. He's a copper researcher. Still alive. He's retired, but he's still alive. And he is just a legend. He can say more in four sentences than most people can say in four paragraphs.

He just has this incredible capacity to distill it down, so you're like, "Oh, wow," now again. And then I'd say the third teacher of just tremendous influence would be a contemporary professor at the University of Florida in Gainesville, and his name is Jamie Collins. And he's just a brilliant scientist. He actually speaks three languages. He can speak magnesium, copper, and iron. 

His son is just matriculated UMC Dental School. And so we had a chance to host Forest, his son, and then Jamie and his wife Renee, and had this lovely dinner. It was just such a big experience to be there with him and we started geeking out and they said, "Come on back, guys." But he's just a phenomenal thinker. But he's such a catalytic agent in getting people to understand what's going on.

 Luke Storey: [00:08:00] Awesome. Thanks for sharing those and we'll put them in the show notes. I was only vaguely familiar with the first one, so we'll track some links down and share those with the audience. So I first I think heard you on Extreme Health Radio, which might have been the first podcast that I started listening to on a regular basis and then furthermore, down the road a bit on Mitolife Radio and I feel like-- and I was just listening to one you did with Joe Mercola today. I've probably listened to-- I want to say like 30 interviews or something that you've done, and I think I'm just starting to get my head around it. 

But maybe before we dive into that, you could just share briefly your journey. I understand you at one point found yourself with a frozen shoulder and then went to see someone who does network spinal analysis. And that opened your eyes to there being more than meets the eye when it comes to health and just the gross physical realm.

And that caught my eye because Danny Epstein was a guest on this show maybe three years ago. And before the interview, he worked his magic on me and I could barely talk. So it also had a profound effect on me in a different way. But maybe just how did you get to the point where you're spending hours and hours a day for 10-plus years just combing over scientific research?

Morley Robbins: [00:09:20] It's fascinating. I grew up in a very sickly family. My mom was an alcoholic and had all sorts of heart issues. My dad was manic-depressive with schizophrenic tendencies. And so you grow up going to the hospital a lot. You're kind of drawn to that field. My sister became a nurse, and so I was supposed to become a doctor. And I get to college and I was like, "Oh, wow, there's a lot of work involved. I don't think that's really going to be my future." 

So when you don't get into medical school, you go to business school because you can boss the doctors around. And that's exactly what I did. I got my business degree, worked in hospitals for about 12 years and then wanted to take it up a notch. 

So I decided to become a consultant and spend 20 years flying in those aluminum tubes. And you can't have a more stressful life. I don't think racing to get flights and just everything that goes around, but part of it was pulling a suitcase behind my back. So for 20 years, I'm pulling a suitcase and my body said, "We're done with that." And I got a frozen shoulder, and couldn't pick my hand up above my waist.

So I went to a health food store to explain what my dilemma was. They said, "You need to go see Dr. Liz." And I went, "I don't do witchcraft." because I knew that was a chiropractor, I don't know. And so they sold me some supplements and they didn't do anything, so I couldn't sleep. I mean, I literally couldn't take my hand above my waist and I was in so much pain. 

So I went back after a couple of months. I said, "Look, you must have something stronger." And the owner looked at me and she says, "Morley, we love you. Go see Dr. Liz." So my tail between my legs, I go see Dr. Liz. I was trained by Danny Epstein and her treatment room in Evanston, was large room, maybe about double your room I'm sure right now. 

She had nine tables in there. So she would treat a flight of clients who would come in about every hour, nine clients. And it was a network of clients healing each other. It was like so out of my league. I was like, "What am I doing here?" And in two sessions, I did complete. It was the most transformational experience of my life.

 Luke Storey: [00:12:00] Yeah.

Morley Robbins: [00:12:00] And she used a phrase, though, that it was really-- we want to get to the essence of how did you get into this. And she started talking about the innate healer. And I thought to myself, "I didn't say anything to her at all." If there's an innate healer, there's some mechanism in our body that can heal ourselves. Why do we have millions of doctors around the world? I couldn't make sense of that. And I decided right then and there, I was going to figure out who is this innate healer.

Long story short, it's bioavailable copper. And it's an amazing substance, which I'm sure we'll discuss. But we live on a planet that have two really toxic elements-- oxygen and iron. And they don't play nice together. And copper is what keeps them at bay, keeps them under regulation, harnesses them to do what they're supposed to do. And it's the most overlooked, misunderstood facet of human physiology. 

And for some reason, I was drawn to it. Maybe I was copper in a former life. I don't know. But it was just I'm just like I'm obsessed with it almost. Because to me, it's the center core nod. It's like if you don't understand the role of copper, then you don't understand the body. And I just find it a fascinating subject.

 Luke Storey: [00:13:31] Yeah. Thanks for retelling that story. I've had similar experiences with the network spinal analysis. It brought me back to a clinic I used to go to back in Beverly Hills, and that'd be a room full of people. And at that time I remember being just really emotionally stressed. I was going through a really difficult period with the business situation and whatnot, and I wasn't even in any particular pain. 

I just would go in there to get a break from my mind because it was the only thing that would drop me into that nice theta state where the mind's awake but the body's asleep. It's just one of my favorite places to go to, and I would go in there and reliably get that effect. So yeah, that's cool. So--

Morley Robbins: [00:14:15] Attah is now my wife, by the way.

 Luke Storey: [00:14:17] Oh, no way. Are you serious?

Morley Robbins: [00:14:19] Yeah.

 Luke Storey: [00:14:19] You lucky devil. So you get to get that whenever you want?

Morley Robbins: [00:14:25] It was a transformational experience.

 Luke Storey: [00:14:26] Oh, my God, That's so cool. Well, you've created this whole model, the Root Cause Protocol. And you have all of these practitioners that you've trained under your system. They're out there helping all these people. Like I said, I've delved deeply into the mass amount of content you've put out, and that's not even stuff on your website. There's just, I don't know, probably a couple of hundred hours of stuff just on there outside of your training. So I don't even know what's in there.

But one thing that I find challenging a little bit for myself and I'm sure those listening maybe too, is that you have these different kind of thought leaders in the alternative health space like Jack Crews or Ray Peat, different people like that that are very confident in their model and their model has helped people. And then it's almost as if and I don't think the leaders do this themselves, but it's almost like these cults form around these belief systems, and you have these people with silos of information and silos of beliefs. And unfortunately, many of them are not that malleable from my observation. 

But I think it's perhaps confusing to some people because the people that are out there that are leaders are typically citing studies. And so my question is, can you find a study to support any point of view at this point in health? Because you have fish oil advocates that can give you X number of studies saying how great it is for you and then an equal number of people on the other side saying polyunsaturated fats are going to be the death of you. 

So how do you reconcile, I guess, your model in consideration of the other models out there that seem to have some validity in large swaths of people following them?

Morley Robbins: [00:16:08] Yeah. No, I think it's a really good point. To your question, yes, you can find the study for any position. Absolutely. That's what makes it so frustrating. You would think that there's a right or wrong, left, right. No, it's like anything goes. And there's a famous meeting that David Kessler, who was a former head of the FDA where they were debating whether to ban access to supplements and this and that. And it was getting so confusing. And according to the legend, I wasn't there. So I don't know. But this how it was reported.

Dr. Kessler said, "That's exactly what we want. We want it to be so confusing that people don't know what to do." Did he actually say that? We don't know. It certainly seems like he did, because that's kind of the world that we're in. The thing is, I guess the way that I've allowed it to evolve is it made sense to me that everything hinged around energy, making energy. 

And when I began to understand that you can't make energy unless you activate oxygen and turn it into water and that there's only one enzyme that does that, there's only one mineral that allows that one enzyme to do it, that became this really galvanizing point of understanding that I think the world and our physiology is a lot clearer and a lot more simple than people realize.

And there's all this foment about this concept and that concept and this paradigm. And when you begin to really harness yourself to energy, it's amazing how things get simplified. I know you understand this, but there was a method to my madness to call the book Cure Your Fatigue because the starting point for every condition is lack of energy. Even something as basic as plaque in arteries, it's the epithelial cells that stop making energy and start to recruit macrophages. And it all starts with the lack of energy. 

Well, how did the energy start to wobble? Because iron started to build up in the mitochondria. And it's like when you begin to understand those concepts, then you begin to see, oh my gosh, this happens. It doesn't matter where it is in the body. And I have tremendous respect for what Jack Crews has done around light, around just the whole earthing process, the flow of electrons, what have you. 

But again, I don't know if he really enjoys talking about minerals. I don't think that is his area of strength or area of interest. There's no one who's more knowledgeable about hormones and estrogen than Ray Peat. I'm like, I have a torturous love-hate relationship with Ray Peat's writings because he's brilliant, absolutely brilliant in some areas. And I'm like, "4,500 calories in sugar? Wait a minute. I'll go with you on that one."

But again, what I the listeners to understand is, it was Ray Peat who inspired me to do this. I was reading his article on iron toxicity. And towards the end of that article-- it's an amazing article if people haven't read it. And he talks about this point. He talks about [00:20:07] pseudo [00:20:08] plasma. He said, "To my knowledge, no one's ever developed a recipe to increase its production." And I read that sentence, Luke, and I said, "That's what I'm going to do." I'm going to make that recipe. And that's what the Root Cause Protocol is. 

It started with that article and I was talking to my oldest son, who is an engineer, electrical engineer. He said, "Dad, what I think you need is stops and starts." I'm like, "Brilliant. I like that." And that's where that idea came from. And so it was two stops, two starts, and now it's about 12 stops and 15 starts. But we're trying to keep it at bay. We could easily make 110. When I really got into the weeds, we could identify 100 things we have to do, and then we would lose everyone.
So the whole idea is to give people the critical mass. 

But I think what's important is I'm not trying to refute or dispute what these other luminaries are saying. If anything, I'm trying to be this engine oil to try to say, "How can we make all this stuff work together?" But to me really I'm so over enemies, the pathogens, the toxins and this and that. It's like that's where all the optics are. But that's not where the healing takes place. Healing takes place with energy. So I say, "Ignore the enemies. Let's ignite the energy." And to me, it's a very simple message, but it has enormous implications.

 Luke Storey: [00:21:48] Yeah. Thank you for illuminating that. It reminds me of something I heard when I first got into my own healing journey back in, God, I probably heard this in the mid or late '90s. It's so simple, but then the answers to the equation can get complex and it was something to the effect of if you're sick, stop giving your body the things that made it sick and start giving it the things that enable it to heal itself, which is undisputably, and I would agree with you, energy. So it's like if I'm putting things in and on my body that take away from my metabolic energy, then I can incrementally start to avoid them and remove them from my lives. 

But the harder piece there is, I think, what are the things that my body wants and needs in order to really thrive? And they have to be based in giving it the ability to create energy because that's where our immune system-- detoxing, all of the things that people niche down into or are fundamentally, as you said, issues of energy. So I really appreciate that perspective. 

And it's probably why I've just continually gone back to your work. I wonder what Morley says about this. I wonder what he says about that. And that really is the crux of it. So maybe that's a good setup for us to give a bit of an elevator pitch on the root cause protocol. If we're not chasing symptoms in the allopathic or functional medicine model, then what is perhaps the root cause of some of the symptoms that many of us are experiencing as you've outlined it in your training and how you work with people?

Morley Robbins: [00:23:24] Yeah, and let me my way of introduction and appreciate the setup. Most people don't know what copper is. What they do know, they know it's toxic and to stay away from it. Maybe there's more to the story. And I always appreciate opportunities like this to really begin to paint a much different picture. But there's only four things that copper does, what I think are worth talking about, only four things. 

Copper creates energy. Copper clears exhaust. Copper catalyzes enzymes, especially enzymes that involve oxygen, which is a big deal, and copper combats enemies. There's not one pathogen that doesn't cave in the presence of copper. Bacteria, fungus, virus, and parasites all cave in the presence of copper. But other than those four things, Luke, copper doesn't do much.

That's it. That's the whole kit and caboodle, and yet it's not taught that way in doctor school. It's not taught that way in nutrition school. Alternative healers, oh, my gosh, they don't think of it in that sense. So the whole notion behind the Root Cause Protocol was, and I think it's important for people to know how the journey evolved. And so I started with this fixation of magnesium, because I actually was Dr. Liz's girl Friday. I mean, I totally checked out because I couldn't go back to the world of hospitals. I had to do something very different.

And I was reading and I was starting to write. And this is one article I was meeting with one of her clients, and she said, "Well, I think what you need to do is write with paradoxical intention." I said, "What?" She said, "Reverse psychology." I'm like, "Oh, okay." And so I had a whole series of articles. One was, Let's Get That. It was a 10-step plan. Let's Break Bones. Let's figure out how we're going to create osteoporosis. And one of them was let's make our heart attack.

No, don't wait for it to happen. Let's go on the offense. And so in each of these, I was a 10-step plan, but I was using the research of the conventional industry against itself. And so in this particular article, 10-step plan, seven of the 10 steps came from the American Heart Association. It was very comical. It was like, "If you don't want to have a heart attack, don't go to the American Heart Association website."

But I was meeting with another practitioner. And I'd asked her to read this article about Let's Make a Heart Attack. She said, "It's really clever. It's very good. But I can't help but think that step number eight isn't more important than you think." So step number eight was, stop all of your magnesium. And so I thought, "Maybe she's right." So I settled on Carolyn Dean's magnesium miracle. 

And Luke, I read that like it was a murder mystery. Suddenly I knew why everyone was in the hospital. And so I was totally smitten with magnesium. And you just need more magnesium. And I remember a practitioner pulled me aside and said, "Morley, if it was that simple, we would have figured it out."

And I was like, "Well, maybe you don't understand it the way I do." And I was totally wrong. He was totally right. And so magnesium got me to begin to scratch the surface, and I discovered that there's such a thing called stress. And then what's the greatest stressor on the planet? Oxidative stress. I didn't know that. And then I was reading this article by an Italian researcher and said, "Well, the greatest stress on planet Earth is iron stress." And it was like this anvil had fallen on my head and went, "Oh my God. Iron? I've never thought about iron."

And then iron got me to copper and copper got me to ceruloplasmin. And what the Root Cause Protocol is really about is, let's optimize the production of this protein that's the master antioxidant in our body. And when people think antioxidants they think, oh, ascorbic acid, or maybe they'll think vitamin E or something like that, it's like those are little Tonka toys. Ceruloplasmin is one of the largest proteins in the body, and it's 1,066 amino acids. It's got eight copper atoms inside it. It's like, if anyone's ever seen the movie, Fury with Brad Pitt, there's five soldiers in that.

And there's a little trapdoor at the bottom of the tank. There's a trapdoor in ceruloplasmin. It's absolutely amazing. But the model for conventional medicine is one gene, one protein, one function. And that's what drives Big Pharma-- gene, protein, function. There's one ceruloplasmin gene. There's one protein. But it's a transformer and it can do 20 different things and it drives Big Pharma crazy. You want to skateboard? I can do skateboard. Oh, you want a bike? Yeah, let me go to bike. Oh, you want a motorbike? Yeah, I've got a motorbike. 

Or you want a big Harley tricycle? Okay. I could do that, too. You want a car? No, you'd rather have a sports car. Oh, no, what you really want is a rocket? I've got all of that and more. And it's absolutely mind-bending to realise what it can do, and it transforms itself depending upon the condition.

 Luke Storey: [00:30:06] Well, that's interesting that you use the analogy of an anvil falling on your head because anvils I'm pretty sure, are made of iron.

Morley Robbins: [00:30:14] Exactly.

 Luke Storey: [00:30:15] Boom.

Morley Robbins: [00:30:17] That's why they had this epiphany. And the whole point of the protocol is to help people get the nutrients in their body so the body can make more of this protein, get the body to heal itself. And that is--

 Luke Storey: [00:30:32] With the ceruloplasmin, right? Okay. Got it. You guys tune in to listen to me ask our guest questions every week. Well, let me ask you a quick question. Do you know if you're getting enough magnesium? Because four out of five Americans at least are not. And that blows hard core because magnesium is involved in more than 600 biochemical reactions in the human body. 

So let's examine a couple of the most common signs to look for that could indicate you're magnesium deficient. There are literally dozens of symptoms of magnesium deficiency, so here are just a few of the most common ones. Are you irritable or anxious? Do you struggle with insomnia? Do you experience muscle cramps or twitches? Do you have high blood pressure? Are you sometimes constipated? 

Well, you could likely fix most of these things by taking more magnesium. But the bummer is that taking any old mag supplement won't likely get you up to speed. That's why I exclusively recommend a Magnesium Breakthrough. It's the only full-spectrum magnesium supplement with seven unique forms of magnesium that your body can actually use and absorb.

So that's good news, but it gets even better. The makers of Magnesium Breakthrough BiOptimizers are having an awesome Black Friday special offer from November 21st through the 29th. During this period, you can get not only Magnesium Breakthrough but all of the BiOptimizers products for 25% off. To get dialed in go to bioptimizers.com/luke and enter the code LUKE10 to get 25% off any order. 

Now if you're hearing this a bit late and you missed the special offer, don't worry, because there is always a 10% off for my listeners with the code LUKE10. But if you're hearing this in time, again, the link for the exclusive Black Friday offers starting November 21st, 2022, is bioptimizers.com/luke and the code is LUKE10. Now get on this while supplies last and try not to miss that November 29th deadline. 

Tell us the story of how iron farming equipment and iron-fortified foods led us into this situation of iron overload and dysregulation. I've heard you talk about that, and I thought that was fascinating.

Morley Robbins: [00:32:57] Oh, it's absolutely amazing. There was actually Viktor Scha, Viktor?

 Luke Storey: [00:33:03] Schauberger?

Morley Robbins: [00:33:05] Schauberger, thank you very much. Viktor Schauberger actually developed what was called the Golden Plough. And it was made of brass, but he called it Golden Plough. But the yield that this thing put out was incredible. And that was very threatening to the system. 

And so allegedly, I guess I think there's enough evidence that this actually happened. There was a letter campaign to farmers throughout Europe saying you're going to kill the futures market if you start to adopt this Golden Plough. And they stopped like that and adopted a steel plow. 

So the thing is, when you've got copper going through the soil, you're energizing the soil. If you use brass tools, farming tools, ploughs and and shovels and rakes and they're made of brass, you're actually energizing the soil. When they're of steel, no, it's just the opposite. And the steel discs and all these different implements that farmers use have really restricted the yield. And this is all taking place in the '20s and '30s. 

And then there was some very important research done by two biochemists McCants and Widdowson. They were from England and they were the quintessential scientists of their day studying nutrition and studying the importance of different minerals. And they were really focusing on iron and the fact that there was iron deficiency. 

And somehow their pristine research became the basis of deciding to fortify food with iron. And this really happened in the dead of night. It was actually in 1941, in the thick of the Second World War, and it happened in the UK, in Canada, and the US initially.

And this is written in a book by Jym Moon. Jym is spelled J-Y-M. It's called Iron: The Most Toxic Metal. And that book was published in 2007- 2008. I've only read it five times. That's how important the book is. But he makes meticulous record of what happened to iron. And they started to fortify wheat flour with iron. And the justification for it is actually pretty comical. 

At any given time in society, 1% of society is pregnant. 99% not so much. And there's something called hemo dilution that takes place during the 40 weeks of pregnancy and that during the first half of the pregnancy, the woman's hemoglobin level will be about where it is when she's not pregnant. And then in the second half of the pregnancy, it starts to drop off. Blood iron is rising, but hemoglobin is not. And what's also happening is hemoglobin is moving from mother to the fetus. It's a really important thing that needs to take place. 

And the reason it's very simple. A mother's body's trying to get rid of the iron so she can make milk to feed the baby. This is very well chronicled that there's this drop in hemoglobin. Well, the scientists studying this turned it into a disease and they call it anemia. It's called anemia of pregnancy. 

And then what they decided to do was not just inoculate the pregnant women, but inoculate the 99% because they assumed if the pregnant women have anemia, then everyone has anemia. And so we need to fortify everyone with iron. No, seriously.

 Luke Storey: [00:37:37] Oh, man.

Morley Robbins: [00:37:38] No, it's unreal. You can't even imagine that they would even think that way, but they did. And so 41 comes along, they start adding iron filings. And then in 1969, Food and Drug Administration decides they're are going to increase the amount of iron. I think people listening would say, "Well, yeah, it's organic iron. So of course it's okay." No, we're talking about iron filings, literally filings, folks. It's not organic iron. And so they're going to increase to 300%. In 27 scientists from around the world flew to Washington and said, "What are you trying to do? Kill people?" 

And that's pretty much what they were trying to do. So in a magnanimous gesture, the FDA only increased it 50%. So I'm sure people in your listening community and your followers, I'm sure they've run across videos where people have crushed up cereal, put it in milk, and then used a bag to pick up the cereal. It's like it's right there. They're not hiding it. 

What people need to know is that the most effective way to kill energy production in the mitochondria is to bring in too much iron. There are studies that will look at a 40% loss, 60% loss, 80% loss, and 96% loss of energy production, depending upon how much iron is being allowed into the mitochondria.

And what people don't know, I'm not expecting them to know, but what they don't know is that carbon is in charge of recycling iron, and that's not taught anywhere. And so if iron's not being recycled, it builds up inside the mitochondria and then the energy production just zaps down. 

And that's where most of the world is now because iron fortification is global now. You think of it's not just three countries, it's most of the world because we feed most of the world because of the programs that we've got. And it's a massive issue that is very carefully guarded. And people don't think about the iron fortification. They don't think about the amount of sugar we have in our diet. And I've got a new phrase now that sugar is white iron. The relationship between sugar metabolism and iron metabolism is almost identical. 

And folks like Robert Lustig talk about this very eloquently in his book Metabolical. People should read that. You'll curb your sugar intake, I guarantee you.

 Luke Storey: [00:40:35] On that iron piece, Morley, just for a second is so interesting because when you first started to tell the story about the first implementation of this, I thought, well, that was just perhaps gross incompetence. But then in 1969, when you had all of these established, well-educated professionals, doctors coming forth saying, hey, this is a bad idea, then it leads me into, wow, this is actually more nefarious than I even thought. 

And I'm a bit of a conspiracy analyst, not a theorist. But I find it shocking that more people aren't aware of this when now there's at least an emerging subculture of people who are aware of a program like the fluoridation of water. Many people now understand that that's not done for our health, to say the least, and that it has extremely deleterious effects on the entire population wherever they do that.

But this iron thing, I think many people listening still probably think, "Well, iron is good for you. I went to the doctor and I did a blood test and they told me I needed more iron. So now I'm taking this iron tablet." It's just crazy.

Morley Robbins: [00:41:44] No, the meme on the planet is you're anemic and you're toxic. And the truth is just the opposite. People don't realize that again in the world of TCM, copper is the general, and iron is the first soldier. Just so people have a sense of what's the magnitude, the amount of copper it takes to run our body is 100 milligrams of copper, and that fits on the head of a one-inch stick. It's a little tiny bit of copper. And we're supposed to have about 5,000 milligrams of iron. 

Now, I'm going to be 70 in a couple of months. So I'll tell you how much iron I've got in my body. I have a modest, I'm not sure you can see it, 25,000 milligrams of iron. And it's not my theory. These are the leading iron biologists on the planet-- Robert Crichton, Douglas Kell, Richard Hallowell, Ed Weinberger. These are luminaries in the world of iron biology. And we accumulate one milligram of iron every day while on the planet.

 Luke Storey: [00:43:15] Every day one milligram?

Morley Robbins: [00:43:17] Every day.

 Luke Storey: [00:43:17] Wow.

Morley Robbins: [00:43:18] So you're-- what? 51?

 Luke Storey: [00:43:21] Yes.

Morley Robbins: [00:43:22] 51 times 365. So you have a whopping 18,000.

 Luke Storey: [00:43:28] Oh, come on.

Morley Robbins: [00:43:30] You're supposed to have five.

 Luke Storey: [00:43:32] Oh, man.

Morley Robbins: [00:43:34] And so people don't realize that this iron is in their tissue and it's not showing up in their blood. And that tissue and blood are different media, as you know. But it was actually Bruce Ames, one of the greatest scientific minds on the planet, he was at Berkeley for many years and he wrote an article in 2004.

They were studying this dynamic of iron in the tissue versus iron in the blood. 10 times more iron in the tissue than shows up in the blood. And doctors, God love them, they're doing their job. They're doing the best that they've been trained to do. They've been only trained to interpret iron in the blood, and they're blind to iron in the tissue.

And then we're back to copper because it's copper that recycles iron out of the tissue back into the blood. And it's a system called the reticuloendothelial system. It's a big fancy word. Took me two years to figure out that recycling like, "Oh, that's simple. Let's talk about recycling." And here's the fascinating part. You and I have been talking for 45 minutes times 60 minutes. That's 2,700 minutes times 60 seconds. That's 162,000 seconds you and I have been talking.

 Luke Storey: [00:45:10] Time flies when you're having fun.

Morley Robbins: [00:45:13] But every second of every day, Luke, we need to replace 2.5 million red blood cells. So 162,000 times 2.5 million is a big number. And it turns out it's 200 billion every 24 hours. We've got to turn over 1% of our red blood cells every 24 hours. 2.5 million a second. And nobody's thinking about that, but here's the mind-blowing statistic. You're sitting down, right?

 Luke Storey: [00:45:51] Yep. Very much so.

Morley Robbins: [00:45:53] Okay. Hopefully, your listeners are too.

 Luke Storey: [00:45:56] If you're driving, this might be a good time to take a pause and get ready.

Morley Robbins: [00:46:00] Whoever, put the emergency brake on. It only takes 25 milligrams of iron to replace 200 billion red blood cells, 25 milligrams. But here's the catch. 24 of those 25 milligrams come from the recycling system. So we're only supposed to be eating one milligram a day. And the average person probably gets about 70 milligrams in their diet. And they're not even thinking about it because they think they're anemic. And no one's told them that, "Well, if you're going to have that much iron, you really should be counting down the liver and the copper supplements and the vitamin C and this and that."

And no one knows this. Most of all, your doctor, they've not been taught this basic principle. And so the world is awash in this complete unknown. And then the last two years have been rather stimulating for everyone. And I remained with that time period was all about. And COV stands for coppers vanished and ID stands for irons dysregulated. What's important for the listener is because the meme is you're anemic and copper toxic. 

The doctors cannot see it for what it is. Copper's vanished and irons dysregulated. And so all of the symptoms, 100% of the symptoms of that, whatever it is, are related to those two metals. And all the symptoms of the jab, those two metals. And you can't believe it's that simple, but it is.

 Luke Storey: [00:47:57] Wow. Hey, I got a question for you. This kind of oddball on the topic of the CONVID. About a year ago-- you catch that CON?

Morley Robbins: [00:48:10] Yeah, I got it.

 Luke Storey: [00:48:11] About a year ago-- I don't know. I saw something on a video somewhere in social media or something where people were sticking magnets to themselves, on their arm at the injection site. And I and no one in my immediate circle chose to undergo that experiment. But I tried it and lo and behold, one of those little refrigerator magnets for a few days would stick right to my sternum and there was a pole on it. And it was very interesting and troubling. And I just went about living my best life and forgot about it. 

But then I tested it on a very close friend of mine, and she was magnetic on her whole upper torso and on her arms. And she had not had any sort of injection. And I reached out to all the people that I knew that I've interviewed and things like that. 

And there were a number of theories that went around and the ones that got closest to it and maybe you have some insight on this had to do with iron and in a low oxygen environment. And I didn't know if it was from shedding or spike proteins. I'm trying to put this together, but it's very abnormal, whatever it is. And so have you heard of that or looked into that at all? And do you think there is a relation with iron?

Morley Robbins: [00:49:27] Yeah, I think it definitely has a relationship with iron. I'm certainly aware of the people post-shot having that tendency. You're blowing my mind though that people who just got exposed to it didn't get the actual shot. Here's what's really going on, and this is going to be the geek side of the conversation. And your listeners can turn down the volume if they don't want to hear this. But there's a Dr. Merchant and the RCAHN team, and she wrote-- first name's Susan. She wrote an articles 2006, 2007, and 2008. 

But she's talking about enzyme functions that are copper-dependent and enzyme functions that are iron-dependent. And there are seven that she profiles in particular. And then higher water species, they're supposed to be copper driven. And in another species, they are supposed to be iron species. And what I can tell you is happening is, again, going back to some of the changes in farming and changes in food processing and changes in pharmaceuticals is we have a lot of iron in our body that our ancestors very likely did not have. 

And let me explain that a very important piece of research was done at University of Wisconsin in Madison in 1928. Dr. Hart and three of his colleagues decided to take rodents and deny them copper in their diet. They wanted to see what's going to happen. What happened was their livers filled up with iron. That's 1920, and many scientists replicated that study. 

But then in 2021, Kevin Gonzalez decided to look at it genetically. This is for the hardcore gearheads out there. There's just no just dig this so much. So they picked out 10 genes. Three had to do with zinc, three that had to do with copper, and four had to do with iron. And they denied copper to the rodents and they were measuring the MRA expression of these 10 genes. What's going to happen? Only one gene changed. And it's the protein ferrets and light lychee. 

So people are familiar with the ferritin protein. It's an iron-storage protein. What comes into flavors, light and heavy. Heavy requires copper, light not so much. And the ferrets and light chain took off like a rocket in the face of copper deficiency. And where does the ferret light chain express itself? First and foremost in the liver. And so what Jym and Gonzalez were able to do genetically prove the heart stain model and LLVM back in 1928 were way ahead of their time. 

What's happened is copper has only been a number one nutrient deficiency on the farm for 80 years. Nothing to worry about here, folks. Nothing to see here. And so copper has been suppressed, and guess what's been building in our body? Iron, especially in the liver. But what you're sharing with me is that it's expressing itself all over the body. I've never even thought of that. And what's particularly unsettling about your breastbone is the thymus is hanging out behind the breastbone. Guess what the thymus is supposed to be filled with?

 Luke Storey: [00:53:35] Cooper.

Morley Robbins: [00:53:36] Cooper. 

 Luke Storey: [00:53:40] Oh, man.

Morley Robbins: [00:53:40] Yeah. And so is there iron in our skeletal structure? Of course, there is. There's a lot more calcium, but iron is certainly a part of that structure. But there's a lot of magnesium and probably a dozen other minerals. But that's very unsettling to think about magnets sticking to the tissue. But basically what Dr. Merchant is saying is that our higher order of physiology is being regressed back to a lower order structure and function, which is really scary to think about.

 Luke Storey: [00:54:15] Well, when you look at the rates of disease and the decline of health of the entire civilization, it's not surprising. On that note, the magnetic skin and sternum and whatnot, at that point, just spitballing with a few people and thinking that there might be some iron dysregulation at the heart of that, well, one thought was that perhaps it was graphene oxide that was being picked up from people around us. But I did resume donating blood at that time and also stepped up my copper considerably. 

And when we moved, I lost those little refrigerator magnets. So I'm actually going to grab one off Amazon and try it again and see. Maybe that helped. And maybe my friend, if she's still magnetic, I'll get her to donate some blood and see if it changes anything. But yeah, I just thought, man, if anyone could see a correlation there, it'd probably be you since you're the iron expert here. But yeah, it was actually very troubling because it's so unnatural. I was just thinking, "What the hell are they doing to us, man?" 

Morley Robbins: [00:55:20] Well, it is unnatural. Let's just leave it at that.

 Luke Storey: [00:55:25] Yeah.

Morley Robbins: [00:55:26] And I think people need to at least open up to the idea that there's more to the story. I think that you don't have to do a total deep dive. But I think what we learned from the last couple of years is we've learned to ask more questions. And I think we've learned to demand better answers. And I'm not sure they're all forthcoming, but people need to realize that there are two really important things that I took benefit of from the last two years. 

I learned that viruses are excrement of parasites. That's a good thing to know. That's really important to know. That's why ivermectin worked. So that's just good for people to know that. But what I was inspired to do in a fit of passion because I was really getting tweaked by the whole experience, as I'm sure everyone else does, I decided to go into the literature to see how many articles I could find to prove that copper runs the immune system. And I stopped at 52.

 Luke Storey: [00:56:41] Wow.

Morley Robbins: [00:56:43] The one that really set me off was 2008, that showed very clearly that copper stopped SARS-CoV. And I thought, okay, so the whole thing is an interesting experience. And so the thing that people don't realize is that it takes energy, and intelligence to run our immune system. And copper provides both. And that's never been talked about openly.

Certainly, people are not trained that way. Practitioners are not trained to think that. They're taught about all this smoke and mirrors. And what I've really tried to do is bring it down to its essence and I'm sure there was a time years ago when you got a birthday present or some holiday present and didn't have that. Was that toy as much fun to play with? No. And that's how our immune system works. If the copper battery is not there, it doesn't work. 

And people need to realize it's that simple. It's not a whole lot more complicated than that. And I think it's time for the public to be more aware of just how amazing their body is, how intelligent it is, how it has these incredible pathways, of course, correction. But they all require energy and intelligence. And I've gotten to the point now where and it's right on the edge of kind of woo woo here, but I really believe that copper is the God particle. 

And when you begin to understand its role in the nucleus and mitochondria and all sorts of immune pathways, you can't help but wonder, wow, how did they keep this such a secret? It's absolutely amazing when you really get into it. And then if copper is off, the wheels come off the train.

 Luke Storey: [00:59:01] That's very interesting, especially in light of how much attention mitochondrial function has been receiving in the past few years. I mean, in mainstream medicine and alternative medicine, it's all about mitochondrial function and energy production, ATP. You hear about this stuff all the time. I've done numerous shows on different ways to improve your mitochondrial function, whether that's depleting your deuterium or taking something like Urolithin A or different NAD injections, all this kind of stuff is all around mitochondria. 

And other than your work, I've not heard honestly-- I'm not trying to blow smoke here either, but I've literally never heard one person mention the word copper once ever in a conversation about mitochondria, of which there have been numerous. So it is really interesting that it's just overlooked.

Morley Robbins: [00:59:49] For sure, you're very well-versed. So how many atoms of copper in the average mitochondria?

 Luke Storey: [00:59:58] I've heard you talk about it, but I don't remember. I love getting the right answer, too.

Morley Robbins: [01:00:04] So thank God for Paul Cobain and Auburn University. Yeast are the models for mammals. Did you know that yeast are mini mammals? It's amazing. Their physiology is identical to ours. It's just really tinny. Paul Cobain, the copper guy, he figured it out in 2004 and 2006. 50,000 atoms of copper in each mitochondria. Now--

 Luke Storey: [01:00:37] Wow.

Morley Robbins: [01:00:37] Yeah, that's a lot of copper. But we think it is. So let's talk about how much mitochondria we have in our body. We have 40 quadrillion mitochondria. That's 15 zeros. 40 quadrillion. Now we all can go back to our high school biology text and remember that page that had the cell in it, the one page that had the cell, and how many mitochondria in that picture? Two, maybe three. So it's important for people to know that that was drawn by Walt Disney. It has nothing to do with reality.

 Luke Storey: [01:01:15] That's funny.

Morley Robbins: [01:01:16] The average cell has 500 mitochondria. Average liver cell 2,000. Average kidney cell 4,000 mitochondria. Your heart cells 10,000 mitochondria. For the women in the audience who are still cycling, average mature egg in a woman's body 600,000 mitochondria. It's mind-boggling and we certainly understand what PMS is about now. And so then we get to the brain and there are some nerve neurons, especially in the substantia nigra, 2 million by mitochondria. So people don't understand that orders of magnitude when we're talking about fatigue. 

Let's take Parkinson's. Parkinson's is when the substantia nigra fritz is out. Well, there's 990,000 neurons in the substantia nigra. And they each have 2 million mitochondria. And what is Parkinson's? When two-thirds have burned out? Think about a loss of energy production, a loss of copper, the accumulation of iron. No one thinks about it in those terms. And what I came upon as I began to do the research daily-- and daily means seven days a week, kind of goofy that way, but as I began to-- I'm really good at pattern recognition. It's probably the greatest gift I was given. 

And I began to realize that every disease has this dynamic of oxidative stress overwhelming the production of energy. Because if oxygen can't become water to release energy, it becomes exhaust. It becomes what I call they accidents with oxygen becomes oxidants. We know what an antioxidant is. Well, the oxidants are different forms of oxygen with extra electrons, and it causes the oxygen to act out and create chaos. Who's clearing the chaos?

 Luke Storey: [01:03:49] Ah, of course.

Morley Robbins: [01:03:51] So coppers got to work both sides of the fence. It's got to work, "Hey, we got to make water." "Oh, no. We got some accidents. Let's clear those." And when the accident starts to build up, copper gets preoccupied over here and can't be focused over here. And it's amazing and I think the model for people to use as an analogy, we all have kitchens in our home. And the kitchens all have appliances, have got refrigerators, stoves and microwaves. And what are they made of?

 Luke Storey: [01:04:29] Hopefully, no one listening to this podcast has a microwave.

Morley Robbins: [01:04:34] We don't want to hear, but I'm trying to be--

 Luke Storey: [01:04:37] I got it. I got it.

Morley Robbins: [01:04:39] What's the metals that those are all made out of? Steel, which is iron. In the world of conventional medicine and conventional healing, all of the optics and all of the spotlights are on the appliances, folks. What's missing? The cu-isine artists. I spell it differently cu-isine so you can see the symbol for copper. 

So there's a stove? No. What's for dinner? Does the stove know which pot to bring out? Does the stove know how to turn on the heat and how long to cook it? Of course not. And what's absolutely amazing is when you get into mitochondrial physiology, all the articles are about dang, this hem, that, and stove-- it's called HIM-A3, and that's the stove that holds oxygen. 

It's really cool. It's complex 4. There's a cu-isine artist. And that's copper. And it slices and dices of oxygen turns it into water, and voila, energy can be released. And no one talks about the chef. Everyone talks about the stove. It's like, "Come on. This has got to change."

 Luke Storey: [01:06:07] Well, hopefully, we're doing something to change it here. I mean, there's going to be a couple tens of thousands of people that hear this, and many of them probably health practitioners or doctors in some capacity, too. And I'll definitely be sharing this because I've already texted your podcast to a number of different providers and friends of mine and functional medicine doctors I've worked with and stuff like that. I'm like, "Ah, you've got to get the iron copper thing. Listen to this." So that maybe they can then translate some of that back to me from their body of knowledge. 

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I do want to back up to something, because I'd be remiss to not answer a question that I think is probably going on in many people's minds. And this has to do, going back to iron, with this idea of anemia. And admittedly, I don't know a lot about this because it's not something I've been diagnosed with, but I do hear in the periphery quite often, "Oh, I need to take iron because my doctor did my labs and says that I'm anemic." and I hear this more so from women. So is there a legitimate form of anemia? And if so, how would one deal with that in the context of the Root Cause Protocol? 

If it's not so much a real issue and it's very rare and it's an iron dysregulation thing, what other than maybe we could go into donating blood, but what are some of the ways that we could actually deal with the iron? So I guess let's just back up and cover the anemia thing, if you would, just to clear up any confusion for people out there that are hearing otherwise from their doctor.

Morley Robbins: [01:09:35] Tons of confusion. So the two classic forms of anemia are iron deficiency anemia and then anemia of chronic inflammation. It's sometimes called the anemia of chronic disease. I call it the anemia of copper deficiency because that's really what it is. So again when you get into analyzing bloodwork, there are three markers that really are important to understand the full expression of iron in the body. 

And the problem we've got, Luke, is we're just dealing with it in the blood. There's no easy way to get into the tissue other than either biopsy of the liver-- very painful you first-- or Tesla Tube MRI-- very expensive. Again, you first. But the thing is, the metrics that are used are actually anyone who really wants to understand their iron needs to request all three measures-- hemoglobin, serum iron, and ferritin.

 Luke Storey: [01:10:56] Is this what the Full Monty blood panel demonstrates? Okay. And by the way, for those listening, I'm sure I'll have alluded to this in the intro, but I recently, finally, after years of wanting to do this panel, I just did the Full Monty panel. And so we're going to take a quick peek at that later, but carry on so that people know that one can find this specific panel that you're speaking of.

Morley Robbins: [01:11:21] So from 18, I guess, from the Civil War basically to 1972 doctors knew to measure iron status by measuring hemoglobin because that's where 70% of body iron is tied up in red blood cells, 70%. This enormous bolus of iron is in our red blood cells. Again, every second, 2.5 million. Amazing. So a lot of iron tied up there. And second bolus is ferritin. Ferritin protein storage depot, ferattin protein is like an ATM machine.  Anybody can get it. 

And so the cell will draw from that ferritin protein. But there's a catch. The ferritin protein is inside the cell. It's not supposed to be in the blood. Ferritin protein in order for it to work requires copper. And ferritin that's showing up in the blood work is because of pathology, usually in the liver. And the iron recycling program is not working right because there's a build-up of iron and the ferritin is getting cleaved in the lysosome. Lysosome is the stomach of the cell where a lot of stuff gets-- it's like a garbage disposal, if you will. 

And the ferritin protein is getting synthesized, but before it gets released out of the cell and put into the blood, iron is dumped into the lysosome. And that's the start of Lycofit for those of you who are really worried about age spots and things like-- 

 Luke Storey: [01:13:28] Especially if you're taking a crapload of fish oil every day or seed oils and these other Pufas.

Morley Robbins: [01:13:38] But the important thing is iron is the match to cause lipid peroxidation. So I focus on the iron, and I'm very, very aggressive about the else, what have you. But we've got to deal with this iron issue. I think it's 10 times more important than the Pufas. Not everyone agrees with me. But the thing is, the ferritin is only 10%.

And then something even smaller percentage is the serum iron. But I think it's one of the most important because it's revealing the recycling program. And in a woman's body serum iron should be about 100, and then in guys' body, it should be about 120. And so when it's not where it's supposed to be, then you begin to understand that there's inefficiency in the recycling program. And what's happening, to get to your question, practitioners are only doing ferritin studies, ferritin-only studies. And that's just not crucial. 

I don't think it should be legal, to be honest, because it's not revealing the totality of what's going on in the body. I saw a comment in an email thread the other day which just distrust me beyond belief. This was written by a physician talking about the convent. And the fact that the spike protein affects hemoglobin and it causes iron to get released and that iron is picked up by the serum ferritin and then then the ferritin has to take it back to the tissue. And so, "Oh, my God. It doesn't do that at all."

There's no iron in that ferritin. It's just this idea that what's a little fairy system that's going to take it back to the tissues? It doesn't work that way. And so as ferritin rises, it's a sign of inflammation. 

What got my attention was when my ferritin was 237. And that's when I really started to take a deeper dive to understand what is going on. And so rising ferritin is easy. We've got serious pathology. It's the single-digit ferritin that's the conundrum. And only a couple of authors have talked about this. But long story short, maybe we can pick this up in another conversation, but serum ferritin single digit. It's pretty much a lock that you've got parasites. 

And it's affecting the spleen. And the recycling program is not working right. And so the doctors and practitioners are misinterpreting low ferritin. They're not doing serum iron. They're not doing hemoglobin. They don't have a 360 view of what's going on. They're not measuring copper status, ceruloplasmin, vitamin A and D, they're not looking at magnesium in the red blood cell. They don't understand that all of this is working together. And so they're putting this spotlight on serum ferritin. Oh, yours is low. You need to take iron. A course record for iron is one of my students-- she's in the Pacific Northwest-- 80, eight zero iron infusions.

 Luke Storey: [01:17:19] Oh, my God.

Morley Robbins: [01:17:21] And when she and I had our first conversation eight years ago, she was a bit dismissive of what I was saying. Let's just leave it at that. But then she started to study it. She became a student and a few months ago she was very proud to post on Facebook a picture of her arm giving blood for the first time in her life. I think she's late 40s, early 50s, but it was the first time in her life her hemoglobin was normal because she was focusing on copper.

And so the issue is everybody wants to know, does anemia really exist? What they're referring to is iron deficiency anemia. I don't believe there is such a thing as iron deficiency anemia. About 35% of the Earth's composition is iron. It's number one element, number one element on the planet, iron. And prior to 2020, I would have argued that humans were the most evolved species on the planet. Now I'm not so sure. 

But the point is if iron is the number one element, what anemia means is that the most evolved species on the planet has lost the ability to metabolize the number one element on the planet. And that doesn't pass the sniff test. And then when you get into the research, you find out, oh, wow, you can't make heme without copper, you can't make hemoglobin without copper. You can't recycle red blood cells without copper, you can't do anything that involves iron without copper. 

But that's not taught in conventional training. And iron deficiency anemia is the number one deficiency on planet Earth, according to the World Health Organization. And you can take that with a grain of salt.

 Luke Storey: [01:19:29] I think they've lost a little of their trustworthy status over the past couple of years.

Morley Robbins: [01:19:34] In 2012, that was their assertion.

 Luke Storey: [01:19:36] Sure. Sure.

Morley Robbins: [01:19:38] But the point is, I would argue-- give me a couple of hours, man, I can prove it. But I would argue that it's actually copper deficiency anemia is what dominates the planet, and it's causing iron dysregulation anemia, which you alluded to in your comments. So it's important for people to draw the distinction between iron deficiency because it shows low in the blood work. It doesn't mean that it's not being dysregulated in the tissue. So iron deficiency is not interpreted properly because they're not taking into account iron dysregulation. Iron dysregulation is entirely a copper issue.

 Luke Storey: [01:20:23] Got it. Okay. So for someone listening that's facing this information and is in that sort of conundrum, would a simple recommendation be that is not reckless and totally ignorant of what their health providers are sharing with them to order a full Monty panel online to get more accurate biomarkers around the iron piece and then work with a Root Cause Protocol practitioner or you yourself and go through that and just get an alternate point of view from that perspective.

Morley Robbins: [01:21:00] I would encourage people to get the book, learn the argument of the book. First half of the book is what's the problem. Second half of the book is what's the solution. But what Luke is recommending, which I think is a solid game plan, is request a test, which is an online ordering.

 Luke Storey: [01:21:21] Yeah, that's where I got mine. Yeah.

Morley Robbins: [01:21:23] It is called the Full Monty iron panel, and it's like 275 or something like that. I don't see a lick on that. I want you thinking I'm pimping for lab work and work with a practitioner. I've trained hundreds, and these people will be able to work with you and identify a series of very simple, straightforward recommendations to begin to introduce the nutrients that are very likely missing in your diet, that are going to help to fire up the recycling system. And I think people are always pleasantly surprised when they're like this woman of 80 iron infusions. She was I think--

 Luke Storey: [01:22:07] I can't believe she even lived through that. I mean, God bless her.

Morley Robbins: [01:22:11] It's absolutely a miracle. It's a real testament to the resilience of the human body. And she's just this lovely individual who just has such commitment to want to help her fellow man now and fellow woman because she knows that there's been a lot of misdirection of the truth and there are millions of people out there like that. And it should make people really nervous that there's such confusion about the number one element on the planet that has been deemed anemic and it just doesn't make any sense. 

And yet the most important element going back in time when oxygen first appeared on the planet, it was copper who saved the day, and it was called the Great Oxygen. And it was like the world was anaerobic before oxygen came on the scene. And when there was 1/10 or 1% oxygen in the atmosphere, 99% of life disappeared. Well, that's a pretty powerful impact. And it was copper that brought life on this planet. All life on this planet requires copper. And it's like, "How do we not know that?"

 Luke Storey: [01:23:28] Wow. So yeah. Thank you for distilling that down. I like to give people a solid takeaway. And I want to let everyone know that you can find-- I know we're covering a lot here, but you can find all the show notes and links at lukestorey.com/morley, M-O-R-L-E-Y. 

I want to ask just a couple of things about the iron piece and then I'm sure the question is being begged, okay, how do I get more copper? And I know you have some strategies for that that are very solid. Donating blood is probably the most effective way to offset this iron overload at least piece. And I've been doing that off and on for, I don't know, probably 15 years, not as much as I would have liked to. 

And we'll find out if I've been doing it enough when we look at my Full Monty panel in a moment. But have you ever come across anyone that you've worked with doing consultations or any of your coaches, a standard case scenario where it's not advised for someone to donate blood? And if so, is doing a Full Monty panel and getting a realistic picture of what's going on, a smart thing to do rather than just running off and donating blood quarterly, just assuming that you have too much iron?

Morley Robbins: [01:24:43] Yeah. No, I think it's very important to be cautious and appreciate your putting the brakes on it. I was just talking with a client today. She's had a low hemoglobin level in her whole life, low serum iron, low ferritin. And she says and I know I am iron toxic. I said no, you're iron toxic, but we can't be pulling blood out of your body right now. And she says, I know. 

So she's been following the work for probably about a year, but she's been going through a lot of stress and flux. And now she's ready to really hone in. And so there are situations where it just is not advisable, even though I can argue till the cows come home that Luke and I have too much iron in our tissue, it may not be advisable for us to just dive in. And for people who are new to this, it may be unadvised to do that, ill-advised to do that. 

And I think you're much better to understand the context, understand the argument, get the data, and then have a conversation with someone who understands this before you run to your favorite blood donating center and say, gee, what happens. Because it's not-- excuse me. It's not going to kill you, but it could make you feel really uncomfortable for several days, and that's just not advisable.

 Luke Storey: [01:26:11] Got it. Got it. Okay, that's great. Yeah. Interestingly enough, any time historically that I've donated blood, I feel better and better every time I do it, which is pretty telling to me provided, and I learned this the hard way two donations ago, I didn't eat enough before I went in and I didn't bring an adrenal cocktail or something with salt and sugar in it to drink. And I got quite lightheaded. But after that, in the subsequent days to follow, my energy is completely off the charts. 

I had another niche question about regulating iron. I interviewed someone about colostrum the other day, and I've been using colostrum for a long, long time and my body just really responds well to it. So I just intuitively keep taking it. And they were mentioning that the lactoferrin in colostrum, which I understand is quite high, helps with the regulation of iron. Are you aware of that? Do you think that's true and worth taking colostrum?

Morley Robbins: [01:27:10] Yeah. So one of the great crimes against humanity was the pasteurization of milk. Unprocessed milk is amazing and it has just a modest 50 enzymes in it. What does pasteurization do? Kills all those enzymes. What are the two most important enzymes? Lactoferrin and ceruloplasmin.

 Luke Storey: [01:27:40] Oh, wow.

Morley Robbins: [01:27:41] Yeah. And so lactoferrin is found in breast milk in cows milk, mother's milk. And why is it there? Because Mother Nature knows that if iron gets into the baby's system, it's going to attract pathogens. That's why it's there. Lactoferrin has a very close relationship with ceruloplasmin and they fire up the immune system. And what's the preoccupation in obstetrics? Iron and vitamin D. What do they completely ignore? Magnesium, copper, and retinol. 

If you want a healthy baby and a healthy pregnancy, you better focus on magnesium, copper, and retinol. The last thing you need to worry about is iron and vitamin D. And how much iron and vitamin D is in breast milk? None. There is no vitamin D in breast milk. There's not supposed to be any irony either. And yet Nestlé seems to know better than magnesium.

 Luke Storey: [01:28:53] Yeah.

Morley Robbins: [01:28:54] And there's an outrageous amount of iron and vitamin D, and that's a complete violation about the nature of our program. And so lactoferrin plays a very pivotal role in making sure that iron levels are kept at proper levels in the blood. And it's a great support if you've got optimal ceruloplasmin and you probably don't need as much lactoferrin.

 Luke Storey: [01:29:26] Cool. All right, good. Yeah. I didn't even think about the lactoferrin in a good, high quality raw milk. I was just intrigued by learning that colostrum itself is loaded with it, and I would presume even more so than the regular milk. Okay, so million dollar question here. Okay. We're, we're understanding the iron piece a bit and I'm sure people are listening going, "All right, where do I get this copper? Do I just go buy a copper pill?" 

From my understanding, some good sources of copper would be grass-fed beef liver, bee pollen, and whole foods vitamin C. Are those the heavy hitters in terms of naturally in a food based getting into your diet?

Morley Robbins: [01:30:10] Absolutely. Hands down. And the catch is, grass fed, as you noted, but the soil needs to be mineralized.

 Luke Storey: [01:30:22] I know. See, because I've been getting this great raw milk and grass-fed liver from a farm here nearby where I am in Texas. And I haven't asked the farmer like, "Hey, are you putting copper sulfate in the alfalfa that the cows are eating?" He'd probably look at me like I was insane, which I am at times, but just to hedge my bets, I've always really resonated with with bee pollen. Liver's challenging for me, but I freeze it and then I thought and I cube it up and I take a few chunks of it here and there when I can stomach it. But I recently started taking a brand called Sovereign Copper Hydra. And it looks like you're familiar with that.

Morley Robbins: [01:31:05] No, absolutely.

 Luke Storey: [01:31:06] The literature on it seems pretty impressive-- not being a copper expert here, but the fact that it's got copper I and copper II, the different forms and the way they explain it makes it seem very bioavailable and also a low enough PPM that you're not going to over accumulate too much. So I take probably a tablespoon of that a day and I feel freaking amazing.

I mean, since I really got on this and a lot of magnesium and also the Rosetta Cod liver oil for the retinol, a lot of the things that you talk about, these nutrients that we're missing from our diet, the way I feel, especially the energy as we started this conversation and just noticing a lack of fatigue, it's feeling amazing. So in terms of people getting more copper into their diet, what could you say about some of those methods or if you have anything to add to that?

Morley Robbins: [01:31:56] Yeah, no, I think the three food based forms you've identified are really the core. And the three that I recommend as supplements to, if you will, Copper Hydrosol is always number one because it's just a great form. Up in the Pacific Northwest, there's a company called Reverse Skin Aging, and they have a copper cream. It's a 3% VIP copper cream.

It's transdermal. So there's a cream for women. There's a serum for guys. Guys don't like creams as much, I don't think. So Copper Hydrosol copper cream. And then out of my revenge for conven was just stick it to the bear. So I took a form of desiccated beef liver and spirulina and a little splash of tumor and added [Inaudible 01:32:56]. It's called recuperate.

 Luke Storey: [01:32:59] Oh, cool, Cool.

Morley Robbins: [01:33:01] That way people know how clever I am. But it's really being met with some real excitement. People are finding again, just as you noted, again, I don't want people thinking I'm pimping a product because I'm not. What I'm pimping is let's get well. Let's get our body back into homeostasis. And there's just about two handfuls of nutrients we need to do it right. And I really think it's important for people to get supplemental copper because it is so missing in our diet.

And the sources that we talk about as food based forms. They're great, but they're not perfect. And these other forms that we're talking about, the supplemental forms, I would encourage people to do all three. What they'll tell us is we need two milligrams of copper a day. Well, when you go back in the literature, what you'll find is back in the '30s, they were recommending 4 to 6 milligrams a day.

 Luke Storey: [01:34:08] Interesting.

Morley Robbins: [01:34:08] And the upper limit, according to the NIH, again, is just as trustworthy as it was, I don't know, but 10 milligrams is considered the upper limit. So I think the body has a lot more capacity. And what is the RDA for copper? 0.9 milligrams.

 Luke Storey: [01:34:31] Oh, my God.

Morley Robbins: [01:34:32] Folks, we absolutely need more copper. Please get more. I've taste about it. I said if someone suddenly were to break into this condo, got a gun to my head and say, "Okay, boil down 10 years of research into one phrase." Please, just get more copper in your diet. And it makes such a difference in how you feel. And it will help your body to regulate the iron and the oxygen and the rest is history. 

But it's such a overlooked piece of the puzzle. And I think what's exciting now, Luke, is there are more options that are becoming available. And I think we're entering a new era. The earliest recorded use of copper for healing was the Smith Papyrus in 5700 B.C. It's a long time ago.

 Luke Storey: [01:35:31] Wow. I often just reflect on the people of antiquity and how they thrived. And I was thinking about how popular it is, even still in India for people to drink water out of copper vessels. And then, sure you are aware that goes back through Ayurvedic medicine, God knows how long. Were they picking up copper from storing their water like that, or were they just doing it to prevent the growth of bacteria and whatnot?

Morley Robbins: [01:36:01] It was as a sanitizer.

 Luke Storey: [01:36:03] Okay. Do you think it had the added benefit of getting some copper in your body or does it not work that way?

Morley Robbins: [01:36:09] I'm sure it does, but I'm a little cautious about that with the use of sanitized water. I just don't know how those chemicals are going to react. But one of the most prized elements in Ayurvedic medicine is peacock feathers. And what color are they? They're very vibrant blue. Why are they vibrant blue?

 Luke Storey: [01:36:32] Cover. That's funny. Wow. How cool?

Morley Robbins: [01:36:36] We're talking about ceruloplasmin.

 Luke Storey: [01:36:39] Yeah.

Morley Robbins: [01:36:40] It means blue plasma. It's that same color as the peacock. There's a part of our brainstem called the locuscerulius. In that blue dot 10 times more copper in the locuscerulius than any other brain region in our head.

 Luke Storey: [01:37:03] Wow. Wow. That's interesting. Interesting. Well, that's cool, man. I feel like we've given people some actionable steps here and a good overview. Like I said before we started, we're probably going to have to do a series of at least four because I want to do a show on magnesium. I want to do a show on retinol, and we just don't have time within the context of this conversation. But I think as far as the copper and iron goes, it's a good launching pad. 

In my experience, nothing has a bigger impact-- and I mean nothing-- on how I feel and perform each day than my quality and quantity of sleep. Honestly, I've tried every supplement and biohacking technology out there to improve my mood, energy, and focus after a crappy night's sleep and there is nothing that makes me feel better than a good night's sleep. And unfortunately, lack of sleep is simply not hackable in my experience. And the thing that's had the single biggest impact on my sleep is temperature regulation. 

This company, Chilisleep, makes the coldest and most comfortable sleep systems available. I started out back in the day using their Cube, then onto the Ooler and most recently their new Dock Pro, which is by far my most cherished sleep tool. It works like this. The Chilisleep mattress pads keep your bed at the perfect temperature for deep cold sleep. And with the Pock Pro, I can even set the app to change temperatures throughout the night and even turn warm in the morning to wake me up rather than using an alarm clock. It's really cool. 

And by the way, it also saves me a grip of money on my electric bill to not run the AC cold all night long. So I'll invite you to supercharge your sleep right now at sleep.me/lukestorey, where you will save 25% off the purchase of any Cube, Ooler, or new Dock Pro sleep systems. Now this offer is available exclusively for Life Stylist Podcast listeners and only for a limited time. That's S-L-E-E-P.M-E/lukestorey to take advantage of these exclusive discounts so you too can wake up refreshed every day and trust me, you'll thank me later.

Perhaps we could dig into briefly however much you have time for. I'm very interested, of course, personally to find out because I feel like I've been living an extremely healthy lifestyle for a very long time, but I'm curious to see what my HTMA, the hair test and my recent Full Monty Panel reveal. And I think for the first time ever, I'm going to try something, and that is to share my screen with you so that in the actual video recording of this conversation, people who care too can actually take a look at the test themselves. How does that sound?

Morley Robbins: [01:40:14] What I would like to do after we have some orientation here, what I do is I analyse your results and put it in a schedule that I use to make sense of what's going on. Because what we've got on the right hand side on the screen is this is the actual results coming back from the lab, but it's not in a form that you can actually interpret it and say, "Oh, I know what's going on." But what does stand out, Luke, is aluminum.

 Luke Storey: [01:40:48] Yeah, I know, I know. Thank you. I've been chugging-- what's it called? Silica. I've been taking the Orgono Living Silica because I've done so many metals, detoxes and saunas. I did the Ron Hubbard nice and sauna thing years ago. I'm like, "How do I have that much aluminum?" It must be all the chem trails I've been breathing in LA for 32 years.

Morley Robbins: [01:41:11] Maybe so. No, it's a striking elevation and it'll come down. And is this the first hair test you've ever done?

 Luke Storey: [01:41:20] I've done a few, actually, and I haven't really compared the older ones. But at a glance, looking at the metals, I would say that all of my metals over time have continued to go down. And this aluminum one, I don't recall the past test if it was that high, but the other lead, mercury, and all these things I have been able to knock back considerably over the years.

Morley Robbins: [01:41:43] Yeah, aluminum ties up trans serum and that's going to affect the iron status. So it's just something for people to be aware of. But that was a notable elevation. And then what we've got, Luke has on the left hand side is the actual results from the lab for the Full Monty iron panel. So I'll work with what you've got here. So we have a chance to delve in and then what I'll do is show you the analysis of your hair test in just a minute. So you got the [01:41:43]. 

So what we see here, there's different sections, obviously, of the blood test. And what we're looking at in the first sections is the iron. And what I'm particularly keying in on is called iron. It's the iron in the serum. It's the recycling iron that we were talking about. And Luke's is at 96, which is good. Ideally, it should be 120, but 96 is actually pretty decent.

And what I'm also looking at is that-- there's something called TIBC, Total Iron Binding Capacity. And what happens is that there is a transport protein called transferrin, it transports iron. In this recycling program that we're talking about, it gets iron back to the bone marrow, where it goes to be made into new blood cells or goes to the liver to be stored and the Total Binding Capacity is a total number of docking stations for iron in the blood. 

In a guy's blood, it should be about 340, maybe 350. And so yours is a little lower than ideal. And as a result of that, your percent saturation is 32%. So that's a little higher than I like to see it. I'd like to see it closer to 20 to 25%. 32 is fine. Nothing to stress about. But the closer you are to 20%, the lower your chance of ever getting cancer.

 Luke Storey: [01:44:05] Oh, nice.

Morley Robbins: [01:44:06] The closer you are to 60%, the greater your chance of getting cancer. So this is something that anyone can do for the rest of their life. Take their serum iron, divide it by TIBC and see what the number is. And you want to keep it down closer to 20 to 25%. Then we've got vitamin A. Luke's got a rocking Vitamin A, 61. That's beautiful. It's very strong.

 Luke Storey: [01:44:34] It's that Rosita cod liver oil.

Morley Robbins: [01:44:36] Yeah. Absolutely. Now, the other side of it is vitamin D. What the listeners probably don't know is I'm a bit of a heretic when it comes to vitamin D. I don't believe in it the way everyone else does. And I like to see vitamin D around 21, and that's based on a study by Mohammed Amer at Johns Hopkins. 

So people need to understand, I'm from Baltimore. My nickname is Baltimorley, and I think Hopkins is where it's at. And so when they come out with a study that rocks the world because Michael Holick wants it up in 70s to 100s, that never made sense to me. 21, now we're talking. Back in the '80s, a healthy vitamin D was 12. And people don't know that. And so your vitamin D is elevated. It's much higher than I would have expected to see it. But it might be that you're very active outside and for whatever reason--

 Luke Storey: [01:45:48] I do get a lot of sun and have for years and years.

Morley Robbins: [01:45:53] This is peak sun season that we're measuring right now. So, again, keep that in mind. I'm not in any way criticizing. It's just I like to see the number for retinol vitamin A be three times higher than the number for number for vitamin D.

 Luke Storey: [01:46:11] Got it. Got it. So that ratio. Do you think that someone's genetics in terms of how they metabolize vitamin D would play a role in that recommendation? So I understand some people have a more difficult time assimilating or processing vitamin D than others.

Morley Robbins: [01:46:31] Yeah, there's no question that that can be a factor. What is the completely overlooked factor is magnesium. If magnesium is not at optimal levels, there's no way vitamin D metabolism can be optimal.

 Luke Storey: [01:46:46] Oh, got it. Got it.

Morley Robbins: [01:46:47] That's kind of throw everything off. I'm not sure what is behind this, other than, I would assume, a lot of sunshine, which is just fine. So then we get to ceruloplasmin where Luke is getting an A-plus in retinol, which is very cool. It's like a B minus for cerulo. So technically, ceruloplasmin should be 30. So Luke is about seven and half clicks off. That doesn't surprise me. That's about average. Most people are in the low 20s. 

What's important is to do the ratio of copper to ceruloplasmin. But here's the catch. Luke's copper is almost perfect, 99%. You can't get better than 99. But the 99 divided by 22.4, that's 4.42. Those were fun cars. It should be 3.33. So there's a big difference between 4.42 and a 3.33. 

And so what that tells us is there's some level of inflammation in your system despite all that you're doing, my guess is that your liver isn't as pristine as you think it is. And in a low copper diet, you're going to get iron build up in the liver and that's going to affect the production of ceruloplasmin. So that would be--

 Luke Storey: [01:48:37] Nice. Nice. Well, it's interesting because when I did this test, I had donated blood within a couple of months before it and then subsequently went and donated again after this. So I'm curious to see what that number will look like after a couple more donations by the year beginning of next year, to see if that in and of itself has an impact.

Morley Robbins: [01:48:57] And maybe in a subsequent conversation we can take a look at that follow up.

 Luke Storey: [01:49:01] Cool.

Morley Robbins: [01:49:02] But I think that'd be fascinating to see how your body is responding to the stimulus. So again, the thing is that the body will respond to these nutrients. And so the next marker here that's identified is zinc. Again, I'm not a big fan of zinc. I know everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, it's the media darling." You just don't know the history of the copper zinc ratio whose idea was-- and we'll do that in another conversation.

 Luke Storey: [01:49:31] Okay.

Morley Robbins: [01:49:33] Your zinc is strong at 90. I don't often see that. So my guess is you probably take zinc as part of your routine and it doesn't seem to have affected your copper, but something is getting in the way of your ceruloplasmin. And so you've got strong retinol, strong copper. Magnesium is a little on the low side, but the strong retinol and strong copper, you should be cranking on your ceruloplasmin. So something's holding it back.

 Luke Storey: [01:50:06] Got it. 

Morley Robbins: [01:50:07] Something to be aware of, it's just the master antioxidant in the body.

 Luke Storey: [01:50:13] Right. For those listening in relationship to the zinc and copper being those counterparts like magnesium and calcium, if someone was listening to mainstream health advice and megadoses and zinc, is it likely that they would be tanking their copper? Is that one of the reasons you're not a big cheerleader for it?

Morley Robbins: [01:50:33] Absolutely. And the other is when you get into the research of the '20s, '30s and '40s, all the great scientists were obsessed with copper and iron because they're involved in energy production. And zinc was not even on the radar screen. Zinc didn't come on the scene until the late 60s. And so it's all a distraction as far as I'm concerned.

 Luke Storey: [01:50:59] Got it. Well, I think something interesting about your work is that you often cite studies that are really old, which to me is encouraging and it's a positive attribute of the work you do, because I get the sense that air quotes "studies" have been largely co-opted and infiltrated by pharmaceutical interest as time has worn on. 

Even when you're looking back into the 1950s and '60s, you have the Rockefeller Foundation and all of these kind of nefarious characters getting involved in academics and specifically the academics of medicine and influencing things, probably in some cases without our best interest in mind. 

So I like when you go way back to the early scientists who I happen to believe by and large were probably more pure in their intention than some of the studies that came later that we're seeing emerge now that just don't make any sense on their face.

Morley Robbins: [01:51:57] No, I totally agree with you. And for those who are familiar with the movie, It's a Wonderful Life, we've all grown up thinking that we lived in Bedford Falls when in fact, we're actually living in Pottersville. I hope you understand that. The current thinking may not be the most accurate. 

So, third, your ferritin 72, that's elevated. It's not high. High is 300 and above for a guy and 150 and above for a woman. Doctors don't even take note of it until it's in the thousands. That should make people nervous. But 72 just says, "Yeah, you've got a slight elevation." And if you're on top of your blood donation, nothing to worry about, that's fine. The transferrin, that's 20 to 25?

 Luke Storey: [01:52:53] 255.

Morley Robbins: [01:52:54] Yeah. So people need to know that there's something called Morley math and you've got to move the decimal point over for transferrin. And so that the number for transferrin and the number for ceruloplasmin are both supposed to be 30. They must be in sync with each other. Why? Because those two proteins are the first line of defense in the human body because they're managing the status of iron in the blood on the premise that good bacteria are in our gut, the bad bacteria are in our blood. 

And ceruloplasmin and transferrin need to keep meticulous attention to the iron so they don't feed the bad bacteria. So your ceruloplasmin is a little bit low. Transferrin is a little better, but still not at the peak. And so the mechanism to make transferrin is retinol. So you've got the retinol. And the mechanism to make ceruloplasmin is retinol and copper. You've got the retinol and the copper. I think there's gear stuck in your liver. That would be my theory.

 Luke Storey: [01:54:10] Got it. Okay.

Morley Robbins: [01:54:12] And I would be willing to predict it's a parasite. And I'll explain why in a minute.

 Luke Storey: [01:54:18] Oh, God. I did a few rounds of ivermectin in the course of the past couple of years. I thought that would have banged them out. Maybe it doesn't get into the liver or something.

Morley Robbins: [01:54:29] Your hemoglobin is rockin 5.5. That's great. You're a great candidate for blood donations. You don't have anything to worry about. RBC says, you're just below the threshold of thresholds 5 to 7. I really like to see it at 6.5, at 4.9. And the lower it is, that means more iron there's likely in the tissue. And where did I come up with 6.5? It was actually Charles Pollak was the famous international trainer, you probably have heard the name.

 Luke Storey: [01:55:05] Yeah. Yeah.

Morley Robbins: [01:55:06] He wouldn't work with a client until their magnesium RBC was 6.5.

 Luke Storey: [01:55:10] Wow. That's so interesting. And RBC is a red blood cell, right? So that's--

Morley Robbins: [01:55:15] The reason why that's important. So we got a bunch of red blood cells, right? You know that.

 Luke Storey: [01:55:22] Yeah. I know, yeah.

Morley Robbins: [01:55:24] They carry oxygen, right?

 Luke Storey: [01:55:26] Yep.

Morley Robbins: [01:55:27] But they make energy aerobically. You can't activate that oxygen. It would explode if they did. And so anaerobic energy production has 10 enzymes. 8 of the 10 enzymes require magnesium. So if magnesium isn't ideal, it means that the lifespan of the red blood cell is not ideal. It's supposed to be 120 days. 

Under conditions of copper deficiency or iron or magnesium deficiency, they can go down to 20 days. Why is that important? Because then suddenly you've just accelerated the whole process of turnover, which becomes a greater source of stress for the body having to turn over those red blood cells even faster. Nobody thinks about that.

 Luke Storey: [01:56:19] In terms of the discrepancy on the Full Monty blood panel versus the hair test on the right, it's showing my magnesium there kind of even in the high range. What do you think that correlation is about, hair versus blood?

Morley Robbins: [01:56:39] Well, in the hair, it's showing that it's a loss. You're a stress cadet.

 Luke Storey: [01:56:45] I got that right.

Morley Robbins: [01:56:48] No, and that's fine.

 Luke Storey: [01:56:49] Yeah.

Morley Robbins: [01:56:50] So as long as you know that, then you supplement to replace it.

 Luke Storey: [01:56:54] Yeah. The funny thing is, is I take so much magnesium, but I guess you nailed it in that the burn rate. I'm a mover, man. I'm very active. I got a lot going on, as most people do. But I would say over the past couple of years leading up to these tests, year and a half, specifically of moving here and renovating a house and stuff, has been one of the most stressful periods in a very long time, all while maintaining normal life and a career and all that. So that makes perfect sense to me, despite my heavy magnesium regimen and take a few different kinds and throughout the day, it's not even one magnesium pill before I go to bed. I take a lot of it.

Morley Robbins: [01:57:35] Within the context of the greatest global stress the Earth is ever known.

 Luke Storey: [01:57:40] Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.

Morley Robbins: [01:57:43] You can't ignore that. And even though you didn't buy into it necessarily, it's always playing in your psyche.

 Luke Storey: [01:57:49] Yeah, I mean, it's playing in my psyche when I get on an airplane and they have me put on a graphene oxide chemical laden plastic mask. 

Morley Robbins: [01:58:00] No, no. It's really, really important. So do you have the CBC or the CMB  the other blood tests that you've got that are loaded up?

 Luke Storey: [01:58:14] Oh, the other one that I sent you?

Morley Robbins: [01:58:17] Yeah.

 Luke Storey: [01:58:17] Oh, yeah. I can pull that up.

Morley Robbins: [01:58:20] I want to explain to you what I think is going on. Here we go. Good, good, good. All right, so for the audience, it's a CBC with differential. And then you go down you got hemoglobin hematocrit. Hematocrit is just three times hemoglobin. What it translates to is what percent of the blood is iron. And so in Luke situation, 44.7% of Luke's blood is iron. That's really healthy blood. Red Cross loves you, I'm sure. 

So then we come down to a series of initials. MCV, MCH, MCHC, and RDW. This is a teachable moment. These four coordinates were developed by a famous physician named Max Weintraub. Where did he cut his teeth? Hopkins Of course. And he wrote the first textbook in hematology, but he went on to develop the medical program at the University of Utah. 

And it was a very copper centric program. He was a really, very influential figure. And when MCV, MCH and MCHC, are below the range you have copper deficiency. Those three relate to hemoglobin status. RBW is a red blood cell distribution with the red blood cell goes to a two day maturation process and it gets really big and then it needs to shrink in order to be considered healthy.

In order to allow it to shrink, iron needs to get out of that red blood cell. An exit door in the back, it's called ferroportin iron doorway. Literally, ferroportin, but there's a doorman there, and it's a copper doorman. If the copper is not there to open the doorway, iron can't get out. And the red blood cell is too big. It's not as effective. Why is this important? Because during CONVID, what they discovered-- this was an April of 2020, it was a team at Hopkins again, they discovered that the red blood cell was too big. 

And so what they realized is, oh, my gosh, copper is under attack because the RDW is too high. So again, the first three, if they're below the range and the RDW is above the range, those are four classic signs of copper deficiency. The practitioners are not trained. And then we come down to--

 Luke Storey: [02:01:25] That's so interesting. So what you're seeing here then is not is not showing that based on the reference basically.

Morley Robbins: [02:01:34] Your intuition.

 Luke Storey: [02:01:35] Which correlates to the serum levels of copper that we looked at in the Full Monty panel as well. Cool. I like that cross-referencing. That's neat. It's making sure nothing slips by.

Morley Robbins: [02:01:48] When the body is making blood, it makes a whole bunch of different blood. I probably would have been a hematologist if I never got into medical school, but thank God I did, because I wouldn't have this insight. But we've got neutrophils, lymphocytes, monocytes, eosinophils, and beosinophils. They have different jobs. They're all part of the immune system. And these numbers are supposed to be in percentages. So it's 45%, 39%, 9%, whatever.

Neutrophils should be about 60%. And lymphocytes should be about 30%. And so it looks like there's an infection of some sort. Lymphocytes are flexing their muscles, but the real standout here is eosinophils. They should be 1 to 2% and you're at 6%. And that would be an indication of parasites.

 Luke Storey: [02:03:04] Wow.

Morley Robbins: [02:03:05] And again, the mistake that a lot of people make is, I did a cell core. I cleaned out all the parasites in my gut. The parasites are all over the body. They're in the bone marrow. They're in the spleen. They're in the liver. My guess is, there's a chance that you might have a liver fluke that cell core isn't going to touch.

 Luke Storey: [02:03:34] Interesting.

Morley Robbins: [02:03:36] And so that's where biomagnetism becomes an option or bioresonance machines. Or if you know anyone who has a violet laser, they're very effective at clearing parasites in the tissue. So, again, I wanted to flag it because I thought--

 Luke Storey: [02:03:56] My hope is that this isn't only good for me that people are going to listen to or watch this and get an understanding of themselves and hopefully do some of these labs and find someone that knows how to read them in a similar way. When you mention the infection, though, something came to mind. 

I recently have been having some issues with tinnitus and such, and so a friend of mine in Florida, Dr. John Lieurance, who's been on the show a number of times, he had me get tested for something called macons, which is an antibiotic resistant infection in your sinuses and I tested positive for it, unfortunately. So I'm undergoing this crazy nebulizer, the whole thing, this whole sinus attack, basically to get that out of there. But do you think an infection like that could have any impact on those numbers as well?

Morley Robbins: [02:04:45] Of course.

 Luke Storey: [02:04:46] Okay.

Morley Robbins: [02:04:46] Now, here's a little factoid. What color is your hair?

 Luke Storey: [02:04:53] Mostly brown, thankfully.

Morley Robbins: [02:04:56] Okay. Mostly brown. It almost looks black on the screen, on the monitor.

 Luke Storey: [02:05:01] It's a dark brown. Yeah, it's dark brown.

Morley Robbins: [02:05:03] Okay, so there's a fair amount of melanin in your hair. Now, one of my good friends is an Amish dairyman, carpenter and just an all around great guy and he brought to my attention that there are some books written by him Australian Animal Farmer. They're very important. There's natural goat care, sheep care, horse care and cattle care. 

I resisted for quite a while and finally gave in to his repeated suggestions that I read them and they are four of the most important books I've read. What Pat Coleby, C-O-L-E-B-Y, the point that she makes-- these books were written in like 2015, 2016, says any animal that is copper deficient have parasites. Any animal that has parasites is copper deficient. 

Here's the catch. Any animal that has black hair, that's black cat, black dog, back sheep, black Angus, black horse, gorilla, anyone with really dark hair, especially black hair, what do you think their copper requirement is compared to someone with my color hair?

 Luke Storey: [02:06:35] I'm just going to guess probably more.

Morley Robbins: [02:06:40] Do you believe six times more.

 Luke Storey: [02:06:42] What? Oh, my God.

Morley Robbins: [02:06:45] This is based on research out of Japan in the '60s. I've not found the original research. I've got several people trying to track it down. I'll find it eventually, but the point is what color hair does the Japanese have? It's black. Asians? Black. Indians? Black. African-Americans? Black. 

And if those people with black hair or really dark hair don't have copper, it becomes a major stressor for their body. And so your copper looks great in the bloodwork, but I have a feeling you're under coppered because of the melanin production that's taking place in your body.

 Luke Storey: [02:07:34] Wow. Very cool.

Morley Robbins: [02:07:36] Yeah. Just something to think about.

 Luke Storey: [02:07:38] Yeah, that's great. I'm going to step it up. And I haven't been supplementing copper for very long either. So the values that we're seeing here that seem okay, I would say, relatively new because up until very recently I was getting very little copper in my diet other than what I would have gotten from liver capsules and Bee pollen and things like that. But I definitely wasn't actually supplementing with it the hydroxyl like iron.

Morley Robbins: [02:08:06] Yeah, I think that's great.

 Luke Storey: [02:08:07] Yeah. So that's interesting. Okay, cool. Wow.

Morley Robbins: [02:08:11] And the other thing I should point out real quick is the BON creatinine ratio. And this is something that Jack Crews talks about and I think he's spot on, that it's a sign of oxidative stress in the kidney. And you want it really around 10. Ideally, it should be 10. When it gets above 10, it just means that there's some static in your kidneys, and it's a very copper rich organ, which nobody knows about.

And again, as you work with the protocol, as you up your copper, as you deal with your stress, as your life begins to settle down in this location, your burn rate is going to go down. And so those are going to shift. But it's just a good marker for people to know about that that's a very easy area of indicating am I under stress.

 Luke Storey: [02:09:04] Wow, that's cool. I've never even heard of that. That's really interesting. Okay.

Morley Robbins: [02:09:11] So those are some things that stand out in your--

 Luke Storey: [02:09:16] Okay. Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much. The thing I was disappointed in was my testosterone being at 533. I think last time I checked a few years ago, it was like in the 800s and I'm going and the free right now is at 12. I know that's not really your area of focus, but that was-- not knowing anything about this test. Other than that, I was like, "We've got to do something about that for sure."

Morley Robbins: [02:09:40] Well, I wonder what impact iron is having on the sex hormone binding globulin, and that's going to flip it into estrogen, which is going to kill the testosterone.

 Luke Storey: [02:09:53] Oh, interesting. Of course, iron is related to everything.

Morley Robbins: [02:09:56] It really is. I think what's amazing is-- the thing is if I had a magic wand, I would create a three day medical school. Day one, learn how to measure minerals. Day two, learn how to restore minerals. Day three, learn how to play golf.

 Luke Storey: [02:10:17] That's great.

Morley Robbins: [02:10:20] That's it. That's it. It really is. I mean, people are like, "Wait a minute, come on."

 Luke Storey: [02:10:26] That's funny. Well, I'm sure a lot of the doctors out there are pretty damn good at golf by now, but unfortunately, they seem to be missing a huge piece here in the iron and copper and all the things that we've been talking about.

Morley Robbins: [02:10:37] The golf irons, aren't they?

 Luke Storey: [02:10:39] Yes. Yes. Over the years, I've learned the hard way how important biomarker testing is, especially if you spend a lot of money on supplements that you don't need, or even worse yet, ones that aren't right for your personal biology. This is why you'll often hear proponents of testing like myself say, Test don't guess. 

Well, there's a super rad company I use called Viome. You might recall their CEO, Naveen Jain, on the show back on Episode 213. He's an incredibly brilliant scientist and problem solver. What Viome does is provide personalized and precise recommendations on how to optimize your health. Their test reveals what foods you should eat and why, plus what foods you should avoid based on the results from your blood, stool and now even saliva testing. 

And they even take it a step further and offer custom pre and probiotics and precision supplements which are made to order and only include the ingredients in the precise dosages that your body needs and nothing that it doesn't need based on your results. This is truly an awesome innovation. 

Now they have for test at this point with the newest and most comprehensive and also my favorite being the Viome full body intelligence test. This is the most advanced at-home-test currently available to consumers. And for my money, this is the single most valuable and affordable test you can take.

So jump on over to viome.com and use the code STOREY for 30 bucks off your Viome order. Or for the full body intelligence test, you can use the code STOREY50 to get $50 off their most comprehensive test. That's V-I-O-M-E.com, and the codes are STOREY or STOREY50 depending on the test you choose. Those links and codes are also in the show notes. 

I'm going to remind people that the show notes for all the stuff we've covered will be found at lukestorey.com/morley. And before we go, Morley, tell us a bit more about these practitioners that have trained in the Root Cause Protocol and how people can find someone to work with. 

I'm assuming many people are going to hear this and want to go through something like we just did with either yourself, I don't know what your availability is, but some of your practitioners. I noticed that on Instagram now, for example, I see a lot of your practitioners are health coaches and have made their own businesses around this and it's pretty prolific.

I mean, this isn't like, "Oh, you got to talk to the one guy." It seems like a lot of people have adopted. So how would someone find resources on your website, etc if they wanted to get some of this work done and explore this for themselves?

Morley Robbins: [02:13:25] They can start with the social media sites, the magnesium advocacy group, and that's the a group that really focuses on a lot of these issues. Then there's a page, the Root Cause Protocol page--

 Luke Storey: [02:13:39] On Facebook you're referring to? Okay, cool.

Morley Robbins: [02:13:43] There is an Instagram account as well. If you really want to dig in, the website is RCP Root Cause Protocol, rcp123.org and that gets you into the treasure trove of all sorts of resources and information. There is a directory of consultants, people all over the world, again trained, probably about 500 people. And it's a really switched on community. They're very passionate about this process. They've all been healed by this process. So they have firsthand experience with it and they're very well versed in these principles.

They know what I'm talking about and they know things that I don't even know about, which is kind of cool. But the core of their intervention is going to be around  these principles that we've been discussing and if there's a profile of of what they do and what their area of expertise is, there are people that join our community. We have a RCP community. We have Q&A every other week. People get to answer the burning questions that are on their mind. 

And then there are people that do the training. It's a 16 week program and it's got an online component. We have live class, we have case studies, a lot of reading material. It's a very robust program and people really feel empowered and enlightened by the training, whether they have a really high end conventional degree all the way down to being a mom, wanting to take care of their family. 

So it attracts a full spectrum. And I can vouch for the caliber of the training, not just because the content that's there, but just the thought that went into the structure of it. And my colleague, Kristin Kershaw, has done an amazing job to pull that together. And really, she runs a very tight ship and we have an alumni program for these people, and we're really establishing a professional niche, if you will, that never existed before. And it's very exciting. 

One of my guiding aphorisms is if you really want to understand something, try to change it. And so in order to understand conventional medicine, I had to change it. And so I've done that, and I do it with great respect, but with a great understanding that there's areas of gaps in their knowledge. I teach doctors. Their degree stands for mineral denialists.

 Luke Storey: [02:16:44] That's good. That's good.

Morley Robbins: [02:16:46] Diploma is printed on Swiss cheese. And they don't know what they don't know. That's the important thing is these types of conversations, Luke, give-- this opportunity for this truth and these concepts, it gives it legs so that more and more people can learn about this and they can pass it on and spread the good news and the ripple effect on this thing is mind blowing.

 Luke Storey: [02:17:15] I would agree. I would agree. And just observing kind of the network of people that are following this protocol seems to be growing all the time because, as I said, I heard you many years ago and you were was just an outlier in the alternative health scene and you found your niche. And I didn't know that there were all these people that had started to amass around the work you're doing.

But I will say something about that, and it has to do with what I was mentioning earlier in the kind of cult atmosphere that seems to form around thought leaders in the alternative medicine space. And I got to say, for some reason, your crew doesn't seem to have that. We're the only one that knows everyone else is wrong kind of attitude. It doesn't seem to be as exclusive just as an observer, checking in on the different groups and practitioners you have, which I think is really healthy. 

It's like if everyone could find common ground here, we'd make a lot more progress. So that's one. And then two, I really enjoy the perspective of-- and I'm reminding myself of this because I have a tendency to demonize the system and the man myself, and that is, "Hey, we don't have to worry about tearing down the existing paradigm. Why don't we just focus our energy on on building a parallel paradigm that's continually innovating and isn't dependent on the confines of that old system," which is what you're doing and one of the reasons that I really wanted to have this conversation with you, because I think there are easy solutions out there for people for a number of different pathologies and issues. And many of us, myself included, have chased our tails for years knowing nothing about, for example, iron and copper, I mean, just those two.

And so I'm really excited about the work you're doing and I applaud you for sharing it and also for being someone who doesn't at all come across to me as someone who's just trying to sling supplements and scare everyone into buying your product. You have your liver product with copper. You barely mentioned it for a second. I don't remember the name now. 

We will put it in the show notes, but I'm sure you're making a fine living training people in doing your thing. But I really feel from you that your motive is to build a new understanding and to truly help people. And that comes through. And I really appreciate that. I share that sentiment myself.

Morley Robbins: [02:19:36] Well, I appreciate that. I'm really and I think maybe you are as well, but I'm doing my life's work. I'm blessed to do that. And what I've come to realize is that my purpose in life is to help people like you, your listeners, people that I work with, get over some physical barriers they've got so they can get on with their purpose in life.

 Luke Storey: [02:20:01] Yes.

Morley Robbins: [02:20:02] Because we're all here for a reason.

 Luke Storey: [02:20:03] That's it. That's it. Yeah.

Morley Robbins: [02:20:05] Certain gifts are meant to learn our lessons, but we're supposed to share our talents. And when you're worrying about diabetes or appendix that just burst or whatever the issue is, you can't provide why you're here. You can't focus. And so what I think we're committed to is helping people do their purpose. And that's the most important thing we can do.

 Luke Storey: [02:20:31] Amen. I echo that 100% because on this show, often I interview spiritual teachers and meditation teachers. We're very much into the metaphysical realm here. And honestly, that's probably more aligned with my purpose. But talking to people like you, I think is so important because of the reason you just described. If someone's sick and low in energy, how do you have energy to go take a meditation course or to be of service or whatever your life purpose happens to be, specifically in terms of your own spiritual growth, personal development. 

I know as someone who's been very sick on multiple occasions in my life, sometimes for long periods of time, I had no energy left to do anything except just survive. And so all of the biohacking and all the stuff that I'm always talking about on this podcast, I remind my listeners like this is just the groundwork to get your physical vessel up to speed, to do what you're actually here for. 

So I'm fully, fully in agreement with that and on board with that. I appreciate that perspective because it's tempting, I think, for many of us, myself included, to get caught up in the limitations of the body and thinking that if we just get healthy enough and eat right and take the right supplements and get rid of whatever it is that's troubling us in terms of disease or dysfunction, chronic issues, that then we'll be happy. 

But the happiness is actually more coming from the way we think, the way we feel our interpersonal relationships. But you can't get there until you take care of the body. So it's kind of a double edged sword or a conundrum that we find ourselves in.

Morley Robbins: [02:22:07] Absolutely true. I'm with you.

 Luke Storey: [02:22:09] So I appreciate that. Well, man, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for going over my labs. That was really illuminating for me. And like I said, hopefully for some other people watching and listening that are doing similar kind of work and want to make some sense of it, that's really fun. And also in terms of that part of the conversation, very affirming that the things I'm doing are working. And there's--

Morley Robbins: [02:22:31] Absolutely.

 Luke Storey: [02:22:31] A couple of things here and there to be mindful of. But I would have been really disappointed if we went over that stuff and I was a train wreck after spending the past 25 years devoting my life to being healthy in all these ways. So that was a go get them for me like, "All right, we're on the right track."

Morley Robbins: [02:22:47] No, you're not a train wreck at all. I think you're in great shape. I think your liver is compromised. That would be my theory. Short of an MRI. I don't know that I could prove it, but the fact that you've got this macon hanging out, so I think that's an important area of focus for you. And I even got some thoughts around that, which I can share offline.

 Luke Storey: [02:23:11] Great.

Morley Robbins: [02:23:13] I'm sure you've got a real good approach, but there's several ways to address that and we can talk about it.

 Luke Storey: [02:23:19] Awesome. Sounds good. Okay Life Stylist family. If that conversation left you with information overload, I'll remind you that your show notes, links and complete written transcripts are to be found at lukestorey.com/morley. And heads up, next week's episode is a total freak and firestorm. Seriously, I am so pumped to share this one with you. This will be Episode 442 the holistic psychologist on outgrowing toxic relationships and people pleasing with Dr. Nicole LaPera. 

I'm a mega fanboy of her work on trauma, family systems, and overall mental health. But if you're not yet familiar with the work of the holistic psychologist, please do tune in next week. And if you were really excited about some of the information Morley shared in this episode and don't know where to start, here is what has helped me the most.

Getting on the Rosetta Cod liver oil for the retinol; taking that sovereign copper daily; taking the magnesium breakthrough capsules, but also the activation products, topical magnesium oil as well, because it's really hard to get that full red blood cell saturation from only taking even the best magnesium supplement orally. 

So it's good to put it on your body. Soak in magnesium baths, float tanks, all that kind of stuff. Also eating grass-fed raw liver daily I know it's rough. What I do is I hold my nose and shoot them back like oysters. It works quite well. 

And as far as the blood donation, we discussed here with Morely to drop that excess iron, for me, I would prefer to do something like the Full Monty test and work with a Root Cause Protocol practitioner or some other qualified iron expert before just assuming I had excess iron and going and donating blood all the time.

I mean, there are some people that are deficient in iron, I think. And Morley would probably agree here that more people have too much iron or at least iron that's not being recycled properly than people that are actually low on it. But I know that does exist. So I thought that would be worth mentioning. And I add this caveat because there are some folks out there that believe you can in fact be low in iron and therefore not be a great candidate for donation. 

And I've found really what works for me quite well. But each of us is, of course, unique and have a different path forward. So as I always say, test, don't guess folks. It's always good to really take a snapshot of what's going on in your body and then supplement and create your protocols accordingly. And as Morley and I talked about, you can find some really polarized information from all of the various health gurus out there. There are many people that are super pro iron. 

I don't think I'm so much in that camp, but I'm all about researching and learning more. I think it's best to just follow your intuition and your heart, that inner wisdom. And then just to be safe, do some lab work with the professional before taking on any radical new supplement regimen or doing a blood donation via leeches or however you're going to do it.

Just my $0.02 there. I feel some sense of responsibility and sharing these guests with you. And I always want to make sure that you guys are just considering all of your options. But that said, doing the things that I'm doing and going over the labs that I did like we did on today's show with Morley is really working, but it's also taken me a very long time to dial all of this stuff in. 

And I of course, still have a few persistent issues that I'm dealing with. But for the most part, especially when it comes to energy, sleep quality, the hallmarks of aging, I just turned 52 on October 29th, thank you for those of you saying, "Hey, happy birthday, Luke." It's a nice mellow day with the wife and dog running around town. But I got to say, at 52, despite having some tinnitus problems and having to wear glasses more than I would like to and probably not looking great naked, thankfully, no one's seeing that except for one person.

But overall, for 52, my energy is insane. Energy and sleep, those are kind of the things that I look at. And digestion, gut health overall, I'm doing really well. So really I don't know, it just continues to be so fun for me to interview people like Morley, study various people's work, implement what makes sense to me based again on that inner wisdom and common sense and kind of putting together all of the things I've learned from all the various experts over the years. 

And it's really exciting when the things start working and you're like, "Wow, I can actually fire through a whole day and not have to take a nap in the afternoon." Although if I feel like it, I can actually go do that too. So it's nice. I'm happy to be feeling better the older I get, which is just totally counterintuitive. You're supposed to feel worse, look worse, and everything just kind of goes downhill once you hit midlife or whatever. 

But that is not true. In my case, I'm living my best life feeling really good. So that's what keeps me going folks and that's what keeps giving me the enthusiasm to find unique thinkers like Morley and so many others that have been on the show and will be featured on the show and sharing them with you. So that you can take what works and apply it to your life and leave the rest and move on to the next episode. All right. I think that's it, my friends. I will be back on Tuesday again with Dr. Nicole LaPera.

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