[00:00:00]Luke Storey:  I'm Luke Storey. For the past 22 years, I've been relentlessly committed to my deepest passion, designing the ultimate lifestyle based on the most powerful principles of spirituality, health, psychology. The Life Stylist podcast is a show dedicated to sharing my discoveries and the experts behind them with you. Adrienne, Jason, welcome to the show.

[00:00:27]Jason Stauffer:  Well, thank you. Thanks for having us here.

[00:00:28]Luke Storey:  Yeah, stoked to see you guys again.

[00:00:30]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:00:30]Luke Storey:  So, for those listening, we met a couple of months back or so?

[00:00:35]Adrienne Jezick:  Time is irrelevant.

[00:00:36]Luke Storey:  Yeah.

[00:00:37]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah, time is really nebulous.

[00:00:38]Luke Storey:  It was a couple months back. 

[00:00:40]Adrienne Jezick:  I think you were on your way to Austin at the time.

[00:00:43]Luke Storey:  Yeah. So, we had stopped in Phoenix in route to moving here to Texas and got essentially marooned there, because of the storm here in Texas. And I was not mad at that, even though I was eager to get here, because it was 80 degrees, and sunny, and we had a quiet hotel kind of in Mesa, I think. And it was very sunny. And they had a pool. And I started going to this place, Optimyze, which is the biohacking center there in Phoenix. And they have a Morozko Forge code plunge there, and the saunas, and all the things.

[00:01:21] So, I just started going there every day. And then, lo and behold, ended up at your little Santa's elves workshop out there. I'm like, I love seeing how things are made, so it was really fun for me, A, because I'm obsessed with cold exposure. B, I'm always curious like what things look like and feel like before they're the final thing. So, really great to have had that experience, and drop in with you guys, and do what I think was probably the coldest, and maybe longest, and hardest to recover from ice bath of my whole life.

[00:01:57] When you put me in there, Adrienne, and did your magic spells, which we're going to talk about, I just got so relaxed. I just kind of hung out in there, and I thought, well, I might as well just stay, I feel great. And then, we had kind of a business-ish chat afterward, and it was extremely hard to talk, because I was like T-rexing, I was so cold in the sauna. It was impervious to the sauna. It was that cold.

[00:02:21]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah, definitely the coldest on the market. It's the true ice bath versus a cold plunge. So, yeah, a lot of the other solutions out there, they don't really get below 40. And ours will get down to 32, 33 degrees. 

[00:02:37]Luke Storey:  Hot damn. Alright. I got a bunch of questions for you.

[00:02:41]Jason Stauffer:  Alright. Let's do it.

[00:02:41]Adrienne Jezick:  Awesome.

[00:02:42]Luke Storey:  Let me get out my scroll. First thing I want to ask you all is, how did you two meet?

[00:02:48]Jason Stauffer:  That is a really interesting story. So, I was bartending at a restaurant in downtown Phoenix called Hanny's. It was probably my second to last year of college, getting my engineering degree, and it wasn't like in my early 20s. I went back to school when I was 29 on the GI Bill. And so, that's in my early 30s by that point. And Adrienne was on a bad date. She showed up and sat at the bar waiting for this young man, very young man that she had met at a festival in Tempe to show up for their first date.

[00:03:32] And he ended up being 45 minutes late, which, she was 15 minutes early, he was 45 minutes late, which meant that I had a good hour to chat with this beautiful woman who was sitting at the bar. And this poor kid, he walks in, and I see, okay, the date has arrived, right? So, now is my cue as a bartender to give them space, and stop being flirty and friendly with the woman at the bar. But I can still kind of hear what's going on. And he shows up, and he goes to give her a hug, and Adrienne kind of stops him, and says, you smell like cigarette smoke, you told me you didn't smoke.

[00:04:21]Luke Storey:  Oh, red flag.

[00:04:24]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah.

[00:04:24]Adrienne Jezick:  Take one.

[00:04:25]Jason Stauffer:  And the kid says, well, sometimes I smoke when I drink. And she's like, okay, so you lied to me about smoking, you're 45 minutes late, and you've already been drinking. She says, you're welcome to sit down, but just so you know, this is no longer a date. Like your three strikes just went up real quick.

[00:04:51]Luke Storey:  Wow. I love your direct approach.

[00:04:52]Adrienne Jezick:  Some people do.

[00:04:54]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. 

[00:04:55]Luke Storey:  He didn't, probably.

[00:04:56]Adrienne Jezick:  No.

[00:04:56]Jason Stauffer:  No. And he sits down and he's trying to argue his way back into like the date, which I don't know what was going on in his mind. He tries telling her just like, well, just so you know, I'm not going to pay for your drink, and she's like, it's a [indiscernible] dirty martini, you probably couldn't afford it anyways. You're a 23-year-old dumbass. And then, he starts saying something about how she's being unreasonable, she's never going to meet a good man to give her children or some shit like that. And she says, well, I don't want children. 

[00:05:31] Like if you think you're getting somewhere with this argument, you're really not. So, after 15, 20 minutes or so, he finally leaves, and I wrote my phone number on the back of a business card for the restaurant, and I slid it over to her, and I said, I quit smoking three years ago, I have two children from a former marriage, I don't want anymore. So, basically, here, I think I'm the guy that you were wanting to meet tonight. And she gave me her phone number, and I called her the next day, and then we went out on a date, I think, that Monday or Tuesday, and kind of been together ever since.

[00:06:15]Luke Storey:  How long has that been?

[00:06:17]Adrienne Jezick:  Almost nine years.

[00:06:18]Jason Stauffer:  Nine years. Nine years this fall.

[00:06:21]Luke Storey:  Cool. Good for you. Later on, I'd like to, if we have time, because there are so many other things I want to cover pertinent to this niche topic, but I would love to perhaps get into how you balance the working together part of your relationship. I know that's something many people do, and some people do it better than others, and you guys seem to have a great synergy. So, bookmark that. I'm going to ask you, Adrienne, do you remember your first cold exposure or ice bath experience? And what led you into participating in that?

[00:06:55]Adrienne Jezick:  That's a great question. I do remember. I don't know if I'll ever forget it. It's emblazoned in my physical muscle memory and my mind. I was really sick. In my early 30s, I was diagnosed with three separate autoimmune conditions, Hashimoto's, eosinophilic esophagitis, and urticaria. About three or four years into my illness, I gained 50 pounds. I was taking more than 20-plus prescription medications a day and two live antibody shots a month from an allergist.

[00:07:30] I was seeing four or five specialists regularly. I had tried naturopath, acupuncture, vitamin supplements, cleanses, detoxes. I mean, I had really overhauled my life and I wasn't getting better. And Jason had been introduced to deliver cold exposure specifically to ice baths through a friend of ours, a yoga instructor in Phoenix, Gordon Ogden. And he would host these kind of Wim Hof breathwork, Ice baths at his housed here and there at random, but I was never able to make it.

[00:08:06] And so, Jason had the idea that we would just get our own tub, buy a whole bunch of ice, set it up in our backyard, and hold a session. And now, keeping in mind, I grew up in Florida, I lived in Hawaii, Phoenix summers are my favorite time of year. I am all about the heat. I love the heat. And I used to get angry in anything below 70 degrees. Like you're sitting in a restaurant, I was talking to Alyson about this, you're sitting in a restaurant-

[00:08:33]Luke Storey:  I was just thinking of her. She's the same way.

[00:08:33]Adrienne Jezick:  Yeah. And like you're cold. You can't even focus on a meal or a conversation, because you become emotionally dysregulated just from this temperature. And that's how I explained that I was truly at my wits' end and ready to try anything. And it was also coming up in a lot of the books that I was reading, Antifragile by Nassim Taleb. At this point, I think I'd begun Scott Carney's, What Doesn't Kill Us, and even Ernest Hemingway talked about fasting, and being in the cold, and being cold in order to kind of jolt his system.

[00:09:07] So, there were a lot of little things that were happening that said, you have to try this, you have to at least try this. And I thought, at that point, I really would have tried anything. If you would have put ladybugs in front of me, and said, take a ladybug cocktail, like I would have tried it. So, we got all the ice. We sat in the backyard. We did a breathwork session, and then went over to the tub, and it was filled with ice. I don't think it was 32, 33.

[00:09:36] I think it was probably in the high 30s, low 40s, because especially in Phoenix, at this time, it was October 2017, November 2017, so I don't think it was that cold, but there was definitely a lot of ice. And what I did was I positioned my body over the tub. So, if you could imagine this, I had one foot on each side, and I had one hand on each side, and my brilliant idea was to just let go, drop myself in, hold my breath as long as I could, and see what I could do.

[00:10:08] I lasted nine seconds. I jumped out, I freaked out, and I felt amazing. For the first time in years, I had relief from pain in my legs. For the first time in years, I had a sense of self-empowerment like I hadn't experienced so purely, I think, probably in all of my life. It was that empowerment of, I never, in a million years, would have thought I could do something like that. It didn't matter that it was only nine seconds, that nine seconds was enough to completely change my life. And quite quickly, I just wanted to do it again.

[00:10:51] I don't know that I did it again that day. I don't think that I did, but it was only a couple, maybe three weeks later that we did another backyard session, and we started doing this more regularly on Sundays. Just invite a friend. They bring two bags of ice. We all do a breathwork. We throw our ice in. And it just became an instant craving. Like I felt like an instant ice addict because of this feeling of empowerment, and this relief of pain and inflammation. And it amazed me. It amazed me that I survived.

[00:11:25]Luke Storey:  Yeah. I think a lot of people find that when they take their first plunge, it feels like at times, because your nervous system is signaling this, that you're about to die. I think about that just evolutionarily speaking, if any human fell in a body of water that was 33 degrees, it's not good news, right? So, we have this signaling that's like—and that's the effect people have. And I can't wait to go into your perspective on how to not do it this way, but any virgins that I've popped into an ice bath, unless I coach them otherwise, they're going to get in and go [making sounds] . 

[00:12:00] It's like, that's what your nervous system is doing to protect you and tell you to get the hell out of there. But when like you said, you can start to acclimate to it and build it into a practice like you guys now teach to be incredibly powerful, so I see why it stuck. For you, sir, what I'm curious about, because you have an engineering background, I mean, education-wise, I'm curious about the process, again, because I just love learning how the way things work.

[00:12:30] What did the tinkering look like for you to go from the homemade tub, which you've described, which I've had many iterations of, but I suck at engineering, so I never develop something feasible? What was the tinkering like? And when did you eventually kind of strike gold as you have now? Because you guys have the most insane cold tubs ever, in my opinion, and I'm going to be really excited to get one soon, but I have been in them. So, what did you start to take apart and tinker around with to get you to something that actually worked?

[00:13:03]Jason Stauffer:  So, yeah, my education is in civil, environmental, and sustainable engineering. I didn't go into that field after graduation. I kind of fell out of love with the idea of actually being a civil engineer. And so, I found my way into health care systems and pharmaceutical analytics. It's just kind of what I ended up finding after college. So, I had like a little bit of the technical education. And our business partner, Tom, he's a professor of engineering, PhD at Arizona State University, which is how he and I met. And so, he had a lot of the technical background, but that really doesn't get you as far as you would think. 

[00:13:48] It was important. It got us through some pretty significant gaps when we were doing that tinkering and those early experiments, but really, it came down to I destroyed a few refrigerators in my backyard. I just started pulling them apart, trying to figure out, how does this work? Like what makes it cold? Where does the thermal energy go into and where does it dissipate to? That's one of the really important technical education backgrounds, is understanding that cold actually doesn't exist. Cold is not a thing. Cold is the absence of thermal energy.

[00:14:30]Luke Storey:  Oh, right. Kind of like darkness and light, right?

[00:14:33]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah.

[00:14:33]Luke Storey:  Darkness doesn't exist. It's just the absence of light.

[00:14:35]Jason Stauffer:  It's just the absence of light. 

[00:14:36]Luke Storey:  Cool. That's neat. Never thought about that.

[00:14:37]Jason Stauffer:  And so, in a refrigeration process, the refrigeration process isn't making things cold, it's drawing heat out. And so, inside of a refrigerator, you put something in there that's maybe 50, 60 degrees, and it's going to go down to 40, or 35, or whatever you've got to set up. That thermal energy is being drawn out and it has to be dissipated somewhere. And so, taking crowbars, and saws, and screwdrivers to these refrigerators, which are not at all designed to come apart, was really the early proof of concepts and tinkerings that I did.

[00:15:15] And the first experiment was I had found the cold-making plate, which I just reversed myself, it's not making cold, it's pulling heat out. But what I would later figure out was called in evaporator. And I pulled that out and I just dipped it into a Styrofoam cooler that had water in it. I put the Styrofoam lid on the top and I left the whole thing running overnight. So, I wanted to understand, does it work this way? So, something that removes heat from an air environment inside of a refrigerator, is that going to work inside of water? Is it going to keep up? Is it going to be able to draw that thermal energy out?

[00:15:57] And the next morning, I went out there, and sure enough, yeah, it does work that way, I had a nice little ice block. And so, then just running different experiments and iterating forward. We really didn't even set out for this to be a consumer product. The initial idea was that we just wanted to have an all-the-time ice bath in our backyard. We were solving our own problems. We hadn't really discovered that there was a gap in the market in this kind of awakening of people finding this therapy and wanting to be able to do it on a more regular basis. We hadn't found that yet. We were just like, we want this seven days a week.

[00:16:35]Luke Storey:  Yeah. I imagine that a lot of great innovations come as a result of just not only a gap in the market later on, but a gap and something that you just want to be on the market, and doesn't exist, so you just, I'm going to make it.

[00:16:49]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. Somebody should do something about this. Well, I'm somebody. And so, from there, I tore apart a couple more refrigerators. One of them was a really big, like actual large freezer that we were using, because one of the solutions we tried before this was can we make our own ice blocks so that we're not going to the store every week and buying 200 pounds of ice. I was using like Costco pretzel containers that I'd cut in half, and like salsa tubs, Costco salsa tubs, and trying to make ice blocks all the time.

[00:17:20]Luke Storey:  Giant ice cubes?

[00:17:21]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. And I was doing it, it was like an-hour-and-a-half of work every night to try to get the ice block out of the plastic container, get it stacked up in that freezer, and then start the process over again. And then, at the end of the week, we are still only getting one ice bath a week. And so, I sacrificed that big freezer and pulled it apart, sacrificed that, we bought a dorm fridge just to sacrifice it, just to take it home and pull it apart. And then, we took our galvanized tub and we put it on top of a pile of sand, because sand has a really good insulative value, built a pine box around it, and took like $300 worth of spray foam insulation, and just sprayed it in all the corners to create like an insulated surface.

[00:18:07] We had these evaporators just over the side of the tub, in the water, and the door from that freezer was just on top. And it's like summertime in Phoenix by this point, so it's 115 degrees outside. And so, this was like the next experiment, doesn't work this way, can I make a larger body of water cold by taking these evaporators and putting them in the water? And I think it was three days later, the answer was yes. I had a 33-degree body of water and some ice chunks forming on these evaporator coils. And so, that was our first Forge.

[00:18:42]Luke Storey:  And was it that iteration of it that made you think, wow, maybe there's other people that really enjoy cold plunges like we do, and we could make more and sell them to people?

[00:18:55]Jason Stauffer:  The timing is nebulous. So, it was kind of this awakening. Tom, who is a research scientist and engineering scientist, he was getting into scientific literature and I'm starting to connect a lot of dots in the different benefits that this therapy actually has. It wasn't just a parlor trick, or something to make you feel really good, or look like you're like an insane person to your friend, that there's a lot of different benefits physiologically, psychologically to doing this.

[00:19:26] And at the same time, we were starting to follow social media hashtags, Wim Hof culture, things like that. And I kept seeing the same Costco salsa containers on Instagram, because other people were trying to solve the same problem that we were trying to solve. And so, through this process, we kind of awakened to this need that people were like, I want more cold, like my swimming pool does it in the winter, but by the time it's summer, I'm trying to make ice blocks out of Costco salsa containers, and just trying to get more cold more often.

[00:20:00] And through that understanding of how elegant and powerful the therapy is for human physiology and psychology, and also, that there were so many people out there that were waking up to this and trying to solve the same problem we were trying to solve. That's when we're like, this is a company, and that's when we started iterating that design forward and just trying to figure out the configuration to make it a shippable consumer product that people would want to buy and would resonate with.

[00:20:38]Luke Storey:  Wow. I'm sure that's no small feat either. I can only imagine. I mean, I realize I've been doing cold plunges pretty much most of my life out in nature, just getting in freezing water to just see if I could do it, and it just felt really good. But when I first started doing the ice baths, again, like you saw someone on Instagram, probably with a Wim Hof hashtag or something, I'd done a couple of his trainings, and they were sitting in like a freezer, like a chest freezer, like I made an ice bath.

[00:21:11] I plug this thing in and I fill it up with water, done. I was like, holy crap. Oh, actually, no. Before I saw that, I got one of those like livestock trough heaters, the galvanized tubs, and then went on Craigslist, and bought an ice machine, a used one for like 800 bucks. And I put them both outside, and then proceeded to break the ice machine, because I was in LA, it's 90 degrees, summer, ice machine couldn't keep up. That sucked. Then I saw that Sears one.

[00:21:38] And then, that would also have a hard time staying, because it was out in the sun. It was behind my brother, Cody's, gym. And then, I put a timer on it, and do all these things, and then I had my handyman build a case around it, so it would be insulated, right? Kind of like your first ones. But the issue I found with that and I still have with that is that the water gets disgusting very fast. And I'm not trying to pour some bleach in my ice bath or something, it's bad enough just doing it with toxic tap water.

[00:22:08] So, I really commend you guys for putting in the work to taking it past that point, because I know a lot of people do that, like me, because it's cheap, but not so much when you count the time it takes to empty the tub, clean it out, wasting tons of water, which I never feel good about, and then trying to fill it back up. And it's not like a long-term viable solution for someone like me that's that committed. So, kudos to you all.

[00:22:35] I want to ask you, Adrienne about, and I want to get back to more of the mechanics, too, because I just like geeking out on that, because you guys have done some very innovative things that solved a lot of the problems we used to face with these products, when I went and sat with you, even though it wasn't even a preplanned ceremony of sorts where we had time to really like see your magic, I found it to be a really powerful experience, because of the presence and mindfulness that you brought to the experience of cold exposure. 

[00:23:13] People, I think, publicly, when they think about ice baths, they think about like the ice bucket challenge or sports teams that are just off the field, and they get in [making sounds] and they scream, and do all this theatrical expression. And I got in, and you're like, ding, you started doing that full-on like sound healing on me in the bath, and I'm like, okay, this is getting interesting. And I went very quickly into that etheric sort of medicine space with you. I was just like, okay, there's another level to this, because I meditate when I get in there and it's just so grounding, but I've never actually had anyone else around that is creating a container. So, I'd love to explore how you got into that integration.

[00:24:01]Adrienne Jezick:  Well, I think you nailed it when you said that most people meet the ice with this competitive kind of energy. You think, I got to get through this, I got to grit and bear it, and [making sounds] I'm going to like psych myself up, and I'm on a high energy. And after explaining my very first ice bath to you, that makes a lot of sense, because that's what I was thinking at the time, too. Like I have to psych myself out to do this.

[00:24:27] And the issue I discovered, and this is at like maybe the third time I plunged, as I was standing in front of it, and I was feeling this anxiety, like just fear, just fear of the ice. And I knew that once I was in and once I got out, I was going to feel really good, but there was something physically stopping me from stepping my foot in the water and I couldn't figure it out. And thank goodness, and this is why Tom's, our business partner and CEO, like he's standing there and he's like, Adrienne, what if you just stepped in, and then sat down?

[00:25:06] And as he's saying this and it's like resonating in my mind, I'm like, yeah, what if I did that? What if this was just my choice, and I just took control, and I understood that I was in control, and all I had to do was get in and sit down? This could be the most passive form of healing modality therapy I could possibly find, right? And so, I did. I stepped in, I sat down, I leaned back, I dropped my arms, and I breathed.

[00:25:38] And it was such a powerful experience to meet the cold that way, to meet the cold with mindful intention, to calm myself before getting in, because nothing had happened yet, right? When I'm standing outside of the tub, there isn't anything to be afraid of. There isn't anything touching me. I'm not feeling anything. There's no experience going on at that point. So, if I can carry that mindfulness into this experience, then what could I do?

[00:26:07] And within that ice bath, I was just immediately transported, transported to a place of meditative calm, transported to a place where I could control my breath through the hyperventilative response. And it was shortly after that that I thought, there are things that I've learned along my years. Dialectical behavioral therapy, one of the things that they teach you for emotional regulation is to ground yourself by getting in touch with all five of your senses.

[00:26:37] And so, now, I was thinking, before I get into an ice bath, how can I ground myself? How can I get in touch with all five of my senses so that I'm fully grounded in a calm state of mind before going through this extreme experience? And it didn't come to me right away, took a little bit of workshopping with some friends in Toronto, took some practice with some people at Arcosanti, at their Convergence festival of guiding other people through that experience. And it's basically me creating, like you said, a container, the safe space and container of calm groundedness before you ever step into the water.

[00:27:18] So, if you can access that here, and then I'm there to help guide you while you're in there, like your first ice can be so much more powerful and profound than my first ice bath. And by bringing in the sound bowls, that was really what kicked it up a notch for me, because you're in this metal tub, and you've got the water, and then the bowl just below the surface, so the sound is going all the way around you, and it's penetrating deep into your body, and it's distracting you on levels from what you're supposed to be afraid of.

[00:27:54] And it evolved from there, the guided meditation that I used prior to telling you to get into the water, and painting you a perfect picture or I'm painting you an exact picture of what's going to happen, what you're going to do, so that when you are in that cold of water, and it is your very first ice bath, and you are experiencing fight or flight, my words come back to you. All I have to do is breathe. This is what cold feels like.

[00:28:20] And then, you've got this beautiful sound, and you've got the pretty lighting, and you've got the smells all around you. You feel the cold. It's engaging all of your senses. And it's also teaching you that these are tools you can carry with you everywhere you go. Any time you experience anxiety, any time you experience fight or flight, any time there's a big mountain that you think you have to climb, all you have to do is take it one step at a time, put one foot in the water. But the next foot in the water, sit down without hesitation, don't stand in your own way. Tell the story that you want to tell yourself before you ever even get in.

[00:28:59] Now, I teach it. I teach as a workshop. I hold sensory experience, immersion experiences for my clients one on one, for couples, for team building, for events. And it is ceremony. It feels very magical to me. My practice with the cold is intentional, and mindful, and grounding, and challenging. And I have all of these tools, and tips, and techniques that I use through the cold and elsewhere in life. It all just like came together. One thing after the other was like, alright, now, I'm going to try this, I'm going to do this. And it's beautiful. It's a beautiful way to meet your fear.

[00:29:45]Luke Storey:  Yeah. It's a beautiful way to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. I found that, too, just the nervous system resilience after years of just getting in that bad, and then getting better at mind over matter when you get in. That's why I always try to tell people like, what's making you freak out is literally your nervous system telling your brain that you're in danger. But you, and we, they often forget that we have a pretty large degree of agency over that as awareness, right? 

[00:30:22] Awareness trumps all of that kind of downstream stuff of the body, and all of its precautionary measures, and fears, and all that stuff. And to harness that in one area, it's like that thing where you do one thing is the way you do everything, right? So, how do you do a divorce? How do you do a lawsuit? How do you do your house burning down? How do you do a death in the family? You do it the same way as you do in ice baths. 

[00:30:50]Adrienne Jezick:  How do you deal with a flat tire? How do you deal with emotional dysregulation? How do you deal with fear of your future? We get to put it in practice in the cold and we get to carry that with us throughout our lives. 

[00:31:04]Luke Storey:  One thing about the experience with you that was not only new, but somehow just put pieces together was the sound balls. And you kind of alluded to it that the resonance of the metal, and the tub, and the resonance of the water crystals, it's as if you're inside of a speaker, right? And I think that's why it got really kind of psychedelic there for a minute. I was like, I take ice baths just about every day, like, cool, you're going to do some special things, like I love your energy, I'm like, cool, let's do it.

[00:31:40] But I wasn't like, well, get ready, Luke, you're going to go deep. And I was just like, oh, shit. And it was just so cold that I realized, if I don't do the timer right on my homemade one, my Sears ice bath, it's probably like 40 sometimes or maybe even gets up to 45, and I'm like, it feels cold, but that shit was cold, cold, like on another level. So, the combo of all those things converging, I was just like, oh, shit, these guys are onto some other voodoo here in the best way.

[00:32:11]Adrienne Jezick:  Next level. Yeah. There were some big ice chunks in there floating around with you. I mixed them around for you.

[00:32:16]Luke Storey:  It was nice. It was really nice. If I could do it over again, I'm not someone that typically lives with regrets, I would not try to talk afterward. I would just savor it, because I was just meeting you and you get to know someone, you're building rapport, and like you want to be fully there for that, and I was just like, ah. 

[00:32:34]Adrienne Jezick:  I got to meet a lot of people that way.

[00:32:36]Luke Storey:  I bet, right? You're like, just another guy freaking out in the bath. Maybe either of you could speak to, you mentioned, physiological, biological benefits, emotional benefits, spiritual benefits. Either one of you that wants to weigh in on some of that, especially perhaps starting with some of the sciency stuff. I was really digging deep with your partner, Tom, on some of this, and I'm sure you guys hang around him enough to be able to assimilate some of it, but he was telling me some shit I had never heard about hormones, and testosterone, and all kinds of next-level stuff that was quantifiable, validated scientifically. It's not just like, oh, you feel good and you get tougher. Give me some of the juicy facts on cold immersion.

[00:33:22]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. It's easier to find something that it doesn't help with, which I don't know if that's true, because I'm not sure that I know of something that it doesn't help with. I'll tell you, one of my favorite systems to talk about is the vascular system, which is another reason why we really prefer those colder freezing temperatures, because it gets that deeper vasomotor constrictive response.

[00:33:47] So, when I was working as a business analyst in a very small pharmaceutical company in Scottsdale, Arizona, one of the products that the company marketed was for chronic venous insufficiency. And this is a very, very pesky disease of aging that we see in industrialized humans. And so, if you go to long*term care facilities, old folks' homes, nursing homes, things like that, you're going to find a lot of senior citizens have very poor circulation, especially in their hands and their feet.

[00:34:23] They're always cold. They're always bundled up. And their hands and their feet are always very cold. This is early chronic venous insufficiency. And what it means is that over the course of our lives, we tend to live in these climate-controlled environments, where even in a place like Minneapolis or something like that, where it gets very cold in the winter, you can really design your life to never really spend a whole lot of time in that.

[00:34:51] You can go from your home to your car, to your place of work, to your car, to your home, and never really experience that temperature volatility. Now, we're all evolved from earlier humans who walked barefoot and naked over glaciers tracking hooved animals. That's where our vascular systems adapted over those millions of years of evolution. And so, they're adapted to constrict in the cold and to dilate in the heat. And it's a lot easier for us to dilate our vascular system.

[00:35:20] We can do it with hot, warm exposure, with sauna, with hot tubs. We can do it with aerobic exercise, which raises our core body temperature, and our vascular systems dilate to adjust to that. There's really only one way to constrict the vascular system, and that's deliberate cold exposure. And with this disease of aging, chronic illness insufficiency, when it gets past those early stages, it gets to a point where people can develop a condition called digital ulceritis.

[00:35:53] So, ulcers will actually start to develop on the fingers and the toes. And what this is, is the vascular system is no longer healthy enough to supply enough blood to keep the tissue alive. So, the tissue starts to basically die from the extremities in. And right away, that's just a massive drop in quality of life. A person can no longer dress themselves. They can't do buttons. They can't hold forks, and spoons, so they can't feed themselves. And so, when you've got these digital ulceratis, you become incapacitated. 

[00:36:28] When it progresses from there, you can get into amputations. You can have fingers, hands, feet, lower legs actually amputated. And this is how a lot of people in our species and in our industrialized society are spending the last years of their physical life, is in these disease states of venous insufficiency, and poor circulation, and ulcers, and amputations. And I mean, we all have to end our physical life at some point, but this is really not a great way to spend the last few years. And so, that's just one of them.

[00:37:03] And probably, my favorite to talk about is that vasomotor constrictive response, which is developing stronger muscle tissue in the vascular system. It's also why we always coach people to keep your hands and your feet in. Even if you've got to take them out for a second, everybody's hands and feet are very sensitive to the cold, and this is why, by the way, keep them in. Even if you got to pull them out, keep them in, keep them in, because you can train that pain in the extremities away after a certain amount of ice bathing. And I hope as I near the end of my physical life that I won't be dealing with that.

[00:37:41]Luke Storey:  Yeah, with fingers removed?

[00:37:42]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. And so, that's one of them. And we have anecdotal evidence, Tom and myself, we got our testosterones checked. I got mine a-year-and-a-half ago checked, and then I got it about half-a-year ago. So, there's a one year gap in there and it had raised. I'm 41 years old, I'll be 42 in October, and so I got it checked at 39. I got it checked at 40. I got it checked at 41. And it actually raised like 30%. Tom's is even more. He's like 54 right now, he's got the testosterone of a 19-year-old. That's like off the charts. And so, that's very anecdotal.

[00:38:24] We've found some support in the scientific literature that cold exposure, even as light is just dressing down outside in like 50 degrees, like not putting on a coat, can help reverse type two diabetes. So, metabolic function, there's fat burning systems that it works on. There's mood regulation from the dopamine and norepinephrine boost that you get at about 30 seconds into an ice bath. Those feel good chemicals, those natural antianxiety, antidepressant, antistress chemicals that we all keep in our brains get released. And that can have that kind of long-term lasting effects to reduce stress, reduce anxiety.

[00:39:04]Luke Storey:  That's so weird that hermetic stress like getting really cold causes your brain to release if you can hang in, right? Because the first, it's like adrenaline, I'm assuming. But if you can hang in past that 30 seconds to a minute, then it starts dumping all these happy chemicals in you, which is weird. I'm like, does the body think you're dying? So, it's like, yeah, we're going to go out in style, at least it's going to be happy.

[00:39:27]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah, it's interesting. And obviously, I don't know, but the way that I tend to think about it is that from a physiological standpoint, this is not an abnormal situation for us to be in. Like I said, we're descended from earlier humans who were exposed to the elements. They were exposed to very cold temperatures, very hot temperatures, seasonality. They were migrating. They would migrate around with the herds.

[00:39:58] And like you said, human falling into an icy river or something like that was probably not that uncommon. So, over the adaptation and evolution of our physiology, these things were common. They're just not anymore. Ever since the Industrial Revolution hit, and the invention of air conditioning and refrigeration, which is interesting, because I use the same technology to undo.

[00:40:24]Luke Storey:  Right. Using a domestic innovation to undomesticate people.

[00:40:29]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. And so, over the last 150 years or so, our species in the industrialized world has increasingly kind of hidden from these volatilities, from these exposures that are a deep part of our physiology, and our psychology, our mentality. And so, it's interesting to think about like, why does it hit us with that boost?

[00:40:56]Luke Storey:  Because it's a reward, right? 

[00:40:57]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah.

[00:40:58]Luke Storey:  So, it's like, what is the body and brain rewarding you for?

[00:41:01]Jason Stauffer:  Finding your roots. 

[00:41:02]Luke Storey:  Right. It's like, ding, ding, ding, you're on the spot, this is the natural human life way, you just found it again. Congratulations.

[00:41:08]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah.

[00:41:09]Luke Storey:  I tell people often that people that have things like depression and anxiety, I mean, I don't know about clinical mental illness beyond that, but just your average neurotic person like we've all been at one point or another always, it's like breathwork and ice baths. Like I mean, look what happened for you, right? You have all these autoimmune things going on. It's like you're trying everything, trying everything. Sometimes, it's like the most simple thing that really moves the needle.

[00:41:38] And I do this myself any time I'm starting to get fight or flighty, or just overworked, overwhelmed. I mean, I think this is where the term chill out comes from. I'm like, I need to chill. No, I need to go deep chill, and I swear to God, I will run to that ice bath like nobody's business and come out. And I'm just like, what was the problem again? It's really insane how effective it is. But it does require a certain fortitude in a person that it's harder than taking a pill, right? 

[00:42:12] Like a lot of the good things. And even like when you start a breathwork session, for me, it's always kind of like the first couple of reps working out. I was like, oh, my God, why did I do this? This sucks. Couple of minutes in, you get some momentum, and then next thing you know, like I could do this forever. But it really is, I think, one of the most powerful ways to possibly affect your mood.

[00:42:33] One question I do have on the physiology, and I don't know that you'll know the answer, but I'm just fascinated by this, because I used to do like weight training, and then I didn't want to get sore and be smoked afterwards, so then I would do an ice bath, and it would shunt all the inflammation, and I would never get sore. And everyone else the next day would be like, oh, my God, I'm so sore from that workout. I was like, I'm not, I did an ice bath.

[00:42:58] And then, I heard Dr. Rhonda Patrick talking about how if you want to build muscle, and let's face it, most people that are lifting weights want to build muscle for one reason or another, that you don't want to do an ice bath right afterwards, because the inflammation that is building the muscle is what you've shunted with the cold. So then, I switched and I started doing it the other way around, and I am so much stronger and resilient right out of an ice bath than I ever could be if my body was warm. And so, we're looking at the vasoconstriction that you described. I still don't understand why having less blood in your blood vessels makes you stronger. It makes no sense to me. Do you guys have any idea?

[00:43:40]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. This is something new that we've also come across, the finding that instead of using the cold to recover from the workout, using the workout to recover from the cold has a really awesome synergistic effect. In fact, I mean, for us, we stumbled across this just a few months ago. The first time we were out here in Austin was early January and we did an open house event with ARX who you know of.

[00:44:11]Luke Storey:  That's where I do my every Sunday Morozko plunge.

[00:44:14]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah, absolutely. So, people were experiencing the ice bath with the Forge, and then they were going to do their ARX workout on the ARX, the adaptive resistance machines. 

[00:44:26]Luke Storey:  Which is hard as F, those listening. It's like way gnarlier than any weights you've ever touched your life by far.

[00:44:32]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah.

[00:44:33]Luke Storey:  Yeah. It's a robot that's fighting you. It's insane.

[00:44:37]Jason Stauffer:  Absolutely. You're only fighting yourself. It strikes you into thinking that it's a robot you're fighting with.

[00:44:42]Luke Storey:  Yes, I'll take that.

[00:44:43]Jason Stauffer:  And one of the great things about those machines is how it tracks and keeps track of your data over a series of sessions. And so, actually, I can log in to any ARX machine in the country and it's got all of my record, my data there. And it'll show like progress and things like that. And a couple of people noticed that there was just like a huge boost in their strength, like 15, 20% over their last session if they were getting out of the Forge and going into the ARX machine. And now, ARX has their Forge, and so they've gotten a lot more data points and it's becoming less anecdotal, and now, this set of data of like, Mike at ARX is like, everybody who comes in here who does the Forge first and goes to the ARX, they run back to me like so much stronger. I'm like 10, 15, 20% over my last session.

[00:45:37]Luke Storey:  Yeah, that's been my experience.

[00:45:38]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. And so, we haven't really dug in on like, why would less blood flow equate to more strength or what the mechanism is, but yeah, it seems to be supported and we don't really understand.

[00:45:56]Luke Storey:  Yeah. And it's like, it works, do it.

[00:45:57]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah.

[00:45:59]Luke Storey:  Another thing about it is not only that you're stronger, but you're just so much more resilient. It's like I'm not tired, you know what I mean? If you go lift heavy weights after a few reps, and like obviously, I'm not a huge weight lifter, but I try to get it in a couple of days a week, but you're like [making sounds] you're smoked. In the last one, you're like, ah, it's just not like that. It's weird. It's kind of just, I don't want to say easy the whole way through, but you recover super fast if you do like one time through the ARX, I'm already ready to go again before the timer is even telling me it's time to go again. I'm like, I'm fine. Like let's do this. It's just bizarre.

[00:46:36]Jason Stauffer:  Maybe it is just those feel good chemicals still sitting on your brain, and so you're not psyching yourself out. You're not, I don't remember who said it, but as somebody who is like a mountain climber or something like that, he says, the same place I quit on the mountain is the same place I quit at the boardroom, and I realized it's not the mountain, it's me. I'm the one who hits the limit. And so, maybe sitting on those feel good chemicals, you're just like, I'm stronger than I thought I was, or I don't have those alarm bells going off, or those like stress states going off. Maybe it's as simple as that.

[00:47:11]Luke Storey:  That makes sense, yeah. In terms of the psycho spiritual and emotional changes that have taken place, what have you noticed in yourself, Adrienne, in terms of your growth after having added this to your practice, and then the people that you're coaching? I mean, like I said, the experience I had with you was so powerful. I can imagine if you're working with people on a regular basis, they must be having some pretty profound transformation take place.

[00:47:39]Adrienne Jezick:  Yeah. I think the emotional resilience is as part of what kept me coming back for more. Like I said, I've done dialectical behavioral therapy, I was in therapy for more than a decade. And growing up, I was raised by a man, my dad, who is bipolar schizophrenic. And so, I carried a lot of those mimicked behaviors into adulthood for coping mechanisms, right? And they're not effective. They don't get us where we want to go. It's not about meeting your emotion in a state of calm or resolving issues in a state of calm.

[00:48:12] And one of the things that this practice has taught me, and this is why I need it to be 32, 33 degrees, is because activating fight or flight intentionally, teaching yourself how to pause and breathe in that moment versus becoming reactionary, you carry that throughout your life. So, three years ago, if somebody were to cut me off in traffic, it'd be like, F bomb this, and laying on the horn, and freaking out. And now, I just take this pause of like, I've done that before. 

[00:48:48] I've cut somebody off in traffic before. Oh, I wonder if that's a teenager wanting to drive. Like there's this pause that you create, and I'll bring up Scott again, he talks about it in his book, he calls it The Wedge, and then his subsequent book after What Doesn't Kill Us, The Wedge, it's that pause that you're creating between whatever the thing is that's happening in life, and then your reaction to it.

[00:49:10] And the biggest example that I had, and this is still in our prototype stages, this is still very new in our practice, and we still had our very first Forge prototype, but we had our regular ice bath, and I was arguing with Jason about something, pick a thing. And I was crying and I couldn't get my thoughts, like your thoughts become slippery when you're in that emotionally dysregulated state, and trying to explain what it is I'm so upset about. I can't even figure it out, because I'm so upset. 

[00:49:39] And I'm just sobbing, and inside of my head, I'm like, just stand up, just stand up and get out of this physical spot that you're in. Because if you can change your physical state, you can change your mental and emotional state. And in my head, I'm saying it over and over again, just stand up, just stand up, just stand up. And all of a sudden, it was like my light bulb aha moment had said, stand up, walk across the yard, and sit in the water. Like it was like a vision, like a full-on meditative vision.

[00:50:08] And it came to me like 100 tons of bricks just like, stand up, walk across the yard, and sit in the ice bath. And I did. And I was in there for about four or five minutes, and at this point, was definitely one of my longest ice baths. And then, I got out, and I went over, and I sat next to Jason, and I said, I don't remember what I was upset about, what I do know is it's more important for me to forget about it, and move on, and enjoy the rest of our evening. I said, will you do that with me? 

[00:50:36] Of course, Jason's like, heck, yeah, I don't even know you were upset about either, so yeah, we'll do that. And that was such a profound experience for me, because never in my life have I had a tool where I could push that button and stop that emotionally dysregulated state. And that emotionally dysregulated state was a go-to for me. It was the default. And so, as I'm coaching people, and I coach people who have recovered from substance abuse, people who suffer PTSD, people who do suffer depression, anxiety, and psychosis, and one thing that I'm seeing consistently is that the more consistent you are in your deliberate cold exposure practice, the easier these emotional coping mechanisms are put into place.

[00:51:27] So, now, it's easier for me to stay calm even when I am emotionally dysregulated. I can recognize it as an emotion. I say, okay, I'm feeling fear, okay, I'm feeling sadness, okay, I'm feeling anger, okay, I'm feeling insecurity or jealousy. Like I can see it for what it is and I could still feel the emotion, but I have that space in between where I can reflect, and at least be open to hearing what else is going on around me, okay, who is the most emotionally regulated person in the room? 

[00:51:59] And what can you share with me about what you're seeing that I don't right now? I would have never been able to have that conversation before ice baths, before practicing deliberate cold exposure. It just wouldn't have happened. And I think that that is also what has led to my healing. I had to heal parts of me here and parts of me here in order for my body to say, okay, you're creating this environment for me. You're creating this healing state and environment for me to bloom in, for me to be my best self. 

[00:52:31] And that is part of what I use when I'm coaching my clients. Like we talk about, what are you working on? What is the hardest thing for you right now? What is standing in your way? In what ways are you standing in your way? And how can we break that down? How can we focus that as the intention as you move through this fight or flight response, and this difficulty of an ice bath, and then come out on the other side feeling empowered, and calm, and clarity of mind, and soundness of heart and spirit? 

[00:52:58] And I think that's also why a session with me feels like a ceremony, because it's all-encompassing. It isn't just sitting down in cold water, and then getting through it, it's all of it. It's mental, it's emotional, it's physical, spiritual, and you've got someone there. You're not alone. You're not alone. I know exactly what it's like to be sick. I know exactly what it's like to be tired. I know what it's like to be emotionally dysregulated. And I'm here to say that we have natural healing, passive forms of modalities that we can use to build that up.

[00:53:36]Luke Storey:  Amazing. Thank you for sharing that.

[00:53:38]Adrienne Jezick:  You're welcome.

[00:53:39]Luke Storey:  It's funny that I didn't ask you this in the beginning, but what does Morozko Forge mean, A? And B, what is the Morozko method, which I have a feeling, you just described? But if there's any more to add to that. But I love the name, even though I still can't quite pronounce it right, but I'm part-Russian, so I should be able to. But I love the origin story, the fable that you shared with me earlier on, so if you could share that.

[00:54:04]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. So, Morozko, which is the way I pronounce it, I haven't really heard very many-. 

[00:54:10]Luke Storey:  Russians, write in and tell us. Morozko. Sounds right.

[00:54:13]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. I just try to say with a Russian accent, Morozko. It's a fairy tale from the Russian tradition. And Morozko is a Jack Frost or father-winter-type character. And the fairy tale that's attached to that mythology is a wicked stepmother fairy tale. So, there's a beautiful little girl. She lives in the forest with her father, and her wicked stepmother, and her nasty stepsister. The stepmother and the stepsister, they don't like the little girl very much.

[00:54:44] They're very jealous of her. And so, the stepmother gets the father to take the girl out to the middle of the forest and leave her there. So, it's got a little bit of a Hansel and Gretel kind of theme to it as well. And for some reason, he does this. He takes the little girl out in the middle of the forest and he leaves her there. And Morozko, Jack Frost, father winter, he's going around the forest and he's freezing things, because that's what he does. He brings the cold.

[00:55:09] He brings the freeze to the forest in the winter. And he comes upon the little girl. She's sitting there. She's shivering. She's freezing to death. And he's about to freeze her, but he stops first, and he says, child, are you warm? And the little girl answers him with stoicism and grace, and says, yes, dear Morozko, I am warm enough. And so, he doesn't freeze her, because he's very impressed with her. And so, he takes her into his cottage. He gives her all these jewels, all these gifts, makes her a princess of the forest.

[00:55:41] And somehow, the stepmother catches wind of this that not only is the little girl not dead, but Morozko has made her a princess of the forest, given her jewels, given her presence. And so, she says, I know what I'll do. I'll recreate this. I'll take my own daughter, leave her in the middle of the forest, Morozko will find her, will take her into his cottage, give her all these jewels, all these presents, and make her a princess.

[00:56:04] So, she does this, and the stepsister's sitting in the middle of the forest, and Morozko finds her, and says, child, are you warm? But this little girl is not stoic and she's not gracious, and so she kind of mouths off to him. So, he freezes her. And what was probably a story that was told to children in the Russian forest to get them to not complain about the brutal winters, we take from it that if you meet the cold with stoicism and grace, it will bestow great gifts upon you. 

[00:56:37] And the Forge has a couple of different connotations. We can forge ahead in our lives. We can forge through a forest. We can forge through a river. It's also a place where iron is turned into steel, so you think about like a metal forge, where you can take iron in and you put it through this distressful pounding process. You heat it up, you add other minerals and elements to it, and you pound on it, and it becomes stronger. Steel becomes stronger than the iron that it started out as.

[00:57:13] And so, it's a little bit of a play on words there as well, because even though we're going through the cold, this is another reason why we like those really cold temperatures, those freezing temperatures, because it is a hormetic stress process. We're taking something, we're stressing our bodies to turn it into something stronger than it was before, something more healed, more resilient, this antifragile process. And so, we take those two words together and that's where we get the Morozko Forge.

[00:57:41]Luke Storey:  I like it. It's a great name. Is there anything else to the Morozko Method other than the kind of emotional part you described? Is there anything missing from there that you guys want to share?

[00:57:53]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. So, there's a lot that, I think, goes into it. And again, we chose a mythological name. We found a mythology that resonated with us, because we believe that our lives are the product of the story that we tell ourselves. And so, we can tell ourselves lots of stories about why we do things, about what our relationships are. We can tell ourselves stories of victimhood. We can tell ourselves stories of heroism. We can tell ourselves stories of sacrifice. We can tell ourselves stories of love, whatever.

[00:58:26] This is how we, as humans, kind of develop our perception of reality, and we all are sitting on subjective perceptions of reality. And this was something that I think we were working with before we even found the cold, it might have been something that kind of led us to the cold, is that storytelling, and telling ourselves the right stories about who we are, and where we're going, and how we're growing. And if we're wronged or something by society, by other people, we can tell ourselves the right stories to get us through that and to keep us on a growth process.

[00:59:01] So, storytelling is a part of the Morozko Method. And then, diet and nutrition is a part of the Morozko Method. Fasting is a part of the Morozko Method. The language that we use, we use a lot of language hacks, especially at the studio in Phoenix, to, again, put us on pathways to progress and growth. And so, all of that kind of wraps into what we call the Morozko Method, and I think, as we get further into this project, finding ways to broadcast those other things and to talk about those other things that we do that we really feel is a part of that method is going to be important for us.

[00:59:46]Luke Storey:  That's cool. It's neat that you guys have married like a physical product that's very useful and that the market for it is really in need of, but also, a practice and a lifestyle around it, you know what I mean? Because then, it's like you have something tangible to anchor people. There's something to actually do instead of just, oh, cool, talk to me about empowering language, you know what I mean? Because sometimes, I don't know. It depends on how you're wired, but some people want something more tangible, less tangible, and I think it's really cool. Do you guys have some kind of training programs around this method?

[01:00:25]Adrienne Jezick:  Yes.

[01:00:26]Luke Storey:  And they're going to be, are there, or will it be certified coaches if someone's like, damn, these guys are to some cool stuff, I want to learn all this, but there's only so many people that can meet or work with either of you.

[01:00:37]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. Adrienne has trained a lot of the cold coaches. And I think getting deeper into that, especially with the language hacks and the mentality of it, I think it is something that we'll do in the future.

[01:00:57]Luke Storey:  Cool. Yeah. I mean, I think of Wim Hof, and it's like he stumbled across these practices and kind of created a model. And then, once you have the model, then that model can be passed on to someone else. And as long as they follow it to a high enough degree to keep it intact in terms of integrity, then it's something that could keep growing. It's super cool. I feel like you guys are on the sort of the precipice of a really unique offering here. And obviously, like if you get an ice bath from you guys, it's going to cost a few bucks. They're quite sophisticated.

[01:01:34] And I want to talk about, again, some of the innovations there. But even for people that aren't so situated at this time to be able to drop a couple of few grand on a really fancy ice bath, like it's not that hard to find freezing water somewhere if you really set your mind to it. So, I like that you guys are in a business that is offering something for sale, but also, the mindset piece and just the practices that one can learn, and then take with them, and not have to be burdened by having to necessarily buy a device or something.

[01:02:07]Adrienne Jezick:  Yeah. The Morozko Method, I do also teach as a training course. So, I do certified coaches to create a sensory immersive experience the way that I do. I would love to eventually see not only those coaches, but anyone come up with other ways to guide people through this process, that the benefit with a guide, your first experience can be a really rad experience. And that can encourage you to continue the practice.

[01:02:37] And I do have some deliberate cold exposure meditations online on the Morozko Method online and on our YouTube channel. So, even if you're just getting started in the practice and you just want an ear or just want to voice there to help you go through the steps, you can do that. And we do have practicing certified Morozko Method coaches, and that's something that continues to evolve. But like Jason said, it's a lifestyle. The Morozko Method is a lifestyle. It's a way of wellness, living in wellness.

[01:03:06]Luke Storey:  That's dope. Wow. I love it, you guys. Tell me a little bit about the construction of these baths, because as I said, coming from the primitive beginnings of my iterations and the ones that you described on the way, like you guys have arrived at something that is super beautiful-looking and very effective. And one of the things you did that I think is so cool is that you introduced ozone as a disinfectant.

[01:03:36] That is one of the problems and probably one of the things that would prevent a germophobe from getting in an ice bath that 10 other people just got in, especially sweaty people. So, give me the breakdown on the ozone, and then also how you made it somehow make ice but not freeze over on top. Because if I get mine cold enough, it's like five inches of ice that I took a kettlebell to break it, and break through the wall of it, and it's just a train wreck. So, you guys like fine-tuned a lot of very cool details here.

[01:04:06]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. So, the ozone disinfection system that we developed is, yeah, probably one of our more powerful innovations that allowed us to—the earlier models, the first models were refrigeration only. And we had really kind of set this out to be a backyard product, which is where we saw that there was a need, and then we were challenged by Optimyze actually. They were opening their space, and they're like, well, we want to put this in a business. 

[01:04:36] I'm like, well, that's an interesting concept. And so, now, we've got county health assessors to appease. And we looked and there's no regulations out there pertaining to a commercial cold bath. And if you call the health inspector, be like, hey, we have this ice tub that people are getting into, they're like, you have a what? The people are doing what now? They just don't know how to handle it.

[01:05:06] So, we used some of the regulations out there for like hot tubs, and like public pools, and baths, and things like that, and developed, innovated the ozone disinfection system. And again, I know I keep saying this, but it's true, here's another reason why we like the lower temperatures, really, really cold water, like freezing cold water, it's naturally averse to microbial infections. So, bacteria and viruses, they don't like cold water.

[01:05:31] They love hot water, which is why a jacuzzi or something like that has to be super chlorinated. And an ozone-generating unit in a hot tub is not enough to keep a hot tub completely disinfected. It only reduces the amount of caustic chemicals that have to go into it. So, right off the bat, those really cool temperatures, they stay clean naturally, which makes the ozone generation such an elegant way to get it to that pure, disinfected state.

[01:06:04] And one of the great things about ozone is that it doesn't hang out in the water. So, you inject the water with it, there are bubbles of ozone in there. It obliterates anything that is contaminated, or microbial, or anything like that. And then, the ozone bubbles rise to the top of the bath. They release to the environment, and then, poof, you're left with absolutely pure, crystal clear water with no chlorine. No hydrogen peroxide is needed.

[01:06:34]Luke Storey:  I've tried the, I think it's like 30% food grade hydrogen peroxide in my ice bath, it doesn't work. Did you ever try that?

[01:06:46]Jason Stauffer:  We did. I think we tried like a quarter cup of chlorine bleach in our earlier refrigeration, like in our Forge one just to kind of—because we're playing with like, okay, how long can we keep this? Obviously, we have to drain it out at some point and start over with a fresh batch of water. And so, we're like, okay, well, what if we put like a quarter cup of bleach in there? That lasts a little while longer, but now, you've got this chemical in there.

[01:07:11]Luke Storey:  It's brutal.

[01:07:11]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. And yeah, really dialing in that ozone generation and making sure that it was built in a way to get enough contact between the ozone and the water to produce a super clarifying effect without the need of chemicals was really special.

[01:07:32]Luke Storey:  Right. It comes out of the very bottom and it has kind of a little diffuser-type thing that seems like bubbles it into the water, right?

[01:07:40]Jason Stauffer:  No, you're thinking, that's the intake. So, that's our inlet strainer that keeps like your towel lint and your hair.

[01:07:50]Luke Storey:  Oh, okay. 

[01:07:51]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. On the other side, but you do see, it does kind of look like a diffused effect, because of just the way that the water is being injected with the ozone gas. And so, I'm not going to tell everybody my secrets, but-

[01:08:06]Luke Storey:  No. Anything proprietary, feel free to be vague on. I totally get it. There are 10 guys out there, can you send me the blueprint? How do you do that? I'll make an ice bath company.

[01:08:17]Jason Stauffer:  Right. 

[01:08:18]Adrienne Jezick:  Heard that before.

[01:08:19]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah, they're out there. But yeah, making sure that the water is injected with the ozone in a way that is sufficient enough to get that disinfecting effect was a really powerful innovation of ours, which now, those are probably our most popular, even for personal and commercial use, is the filtered and ozone-disinfected units, because they are so low maintenance. They're great in businesses, which I think about access a lot, which you touched on, it's a higher end product.

[01:08:51] And I don't like the feeling of pricing people out of a powerful therapy. And some of the most painful conversations we've had have been with people who have reached out to us, and then like, I'm hurting, I'm ill, I have this condition, this thing that I'm working on, and I can't afford this. Is there anything you can do? And as a small, struggling company, we don't have 100 of them on the shelves. We build them in that studio in Phoenix, Arizona. They're not built in China or Vietnam. And we're not making them for 10 times less than we're selling them for. Our margins on these are very modest and they keep us going.

[01:09:35] And so, I think about access, about how can we open up access to this therapy, which is why I love the business model, why I love being able to put one of these in a wellness studio, a gym, a place where someone can go in for 20, 30, $40. They can experience this therapy and they can get that benefit. And one of our big projects right now is, how do we get more of them in those businesses throughout different cities, in different areas? And we have a handful. And when people reach out to us like this, like, well, where are you located? Maybe we have a place where you can go.

[01:10:16]Luke Storey:  I think that is the way of the future with all of this stuff that is high ticket, the BioCharger is 15 grand, the AmpCoil is, I think, like eight or nine grand, like all the heavy-hitting, Joovv red light therapy, I mean, some of these things are just out of people's financial capacity. But I think if most people were able to make a couple of sacrifices, they could find a way to get a monthly pass or even a day pass for a place like Optimyze, and go in, and just like hammer it out, and do a circuit of so many powerful modalities at once, and not have to have it at home, and have to pay for it. So, I think that's a really cool thing. And the ozone allows that to be possible, because the water isn't all stank for a bunch of other fools getting in there before you. 

[01:11:02]Jason Stauffer:  And there isn't a gallon of chlorine in it, which just causes other problems. 

[01:11:06]Luke Storey:  No, the water is pristine. When I go to the ARX, I mean, I'm watching sweaty people get in and out of that thing before me and I get squeezed out mentally, and then I'm like, whatever, I get in, and I'm like, this is pristine. I mean, you smell like a little bit of ozone, which actually just smells like cleanliness. It's like after a lightning storm, that like [making sounds] that fresh air smell. 

[01:11:27]Adrienne Jezick:  Yeah, that fresh [indiscernible] smell.

[01:11:28]Luke Storey:  Yeah, I love that smell.

[01:11:30]Jason Stauffer:  That's how ozone is created by the way. There's an arc of electricity in the generator that creates the heavy oxygen molecules. So, when you smell that after a lightning storm, it really is ozone.

[01:11:39]Luke Storey:  Right. That's so cool. 

[01:11:42]Adrienne Jezick:  I didn't know that.

[01:11:44]Luke Storey:  Well, you know what's funny, though, the BioCharger. I don't know if you guys have seen one of those, this Tesla Coil. And man, I wish I was moved into my house, you guys come use it. It's in the garage, just sitting there, sadly, but it has this copper arc rod on top. And when you run it, there's so much energy going through that coil that it creates little lightning bolts, and then there's like a little ozone in the air. You can smell like, oh, it smells clean, and it's wild. What about filtration? Are you guys doing anything to remove all the junk out of the tap water that people are using to go into it?

[01:12:20]Jason Stauffer:  There's a micron filter in there. I don't know that it's of the grade where it would be removing things that are in the tap water. It's more about particulates, sediments, and things like that. It's an interesting concept we might look into, what are some of the minerals and metals in tap water and how we might remove those? 

[01:12:48]Luke Storey:  A 2.0 version. I mean, here's the thing, is like you got to choose your battles. I'm just a perfectionist and I'm just a control freak sometimes, so I want everything to be totally sewn up. But here's the thing, like how long are you going to sit in an ice bath honestly? Right?

[01:13:03]Jason Stauffer:  Two to five minutes.

[01:13:03]Luke Storey:  Yeah. So, it's like, I don't know, go swimming, take a shower, or whatever. Not to mention you're not getting any vaporized water from an ice bath, where you're taking maybe a 15-minute shower every morning, and breathing in all the chloramine and all this crap. So, that said, I don't if it would be the lowest hanging fruit if I was the producer of them, but if you wanted to really nitpick and fine-tune it, it is another selling point perhaps for some. What I did with my homemade one is I got one of these chlorine filter tubes that you screw on your garden hose, which is just made to make your plants live longer and prosper. So, I fill mine up with that and it helps a little bit. But again, like I'm not in there all that long, so it's whatever.

[01:13:51]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. Again, with the ozone disinfection and filtration system, really, if a person wanted to invest in a few cases of their favorite pure water, dump that in. 

[01:14:01]Luke Storey:  Oh, that's funny, dude. You can take a spring water ice bath.

[01:14:05]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah.

[01:14:06]Luke Storey:  That's hilarious.

[01:14:07]Jason Stauffer:  And never having to drain it and start over again, you just would add a little more as-

[01:14:12]Luke Storey:  I like this thread. I like this, because you could get, yeah, some untouched-

[01:14:16]Jason Stauffer:  Some five-gallon spring water bottles.

[01:14:18]Luke Storey:  Yeah, man. I'm looking for Springs here in Texas.

[01:14:20]Jason Stauffer:  Get about 10 of those.

[01:14:22]Luke Storey:  For real. On that note, with the ozone system, you never have to change the water, or is it like every few months, you change it or kind of like really never?

[01:14:33]Jason Stauffer:  Really never, unless there is some sort of, I'll say, special contamination, somebody [indiscernible] in it.

[01:14:40]Luke Storey:  Somebody had too much MCT oil that morning.

[01:14:45]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah.

[01:14:45]Luke Storey:  Don't shart in that ice baths, folks.

[01:14:50]Jason Stauffer:  Don't pee in the pool. Unless there is some sort of special contamination like that, you should really never need to completely change out the water. For our business customers who do high volumes, they tend to choose to on their own, their own schedule, whether it's your once a month, or once a year, or something like that. But if all is functioning as I designed it to, you really never should have to dump it out and restart.

[01:15:19]Luke Storey:  That's so cool. And not wasting so much water. Like I said, I always feel bad when I empty mine out, I'm just like, oh, God, this sucks. I mean, I guess one could say there's an infinite amount of water, but maybe there's not. The other thing, I think, that was interesting about your bath is the ability to make it super freezing and actually make ice, but it doesn't make a film of ice on the top that you have to break through every time you get in, which gets to be a real pain in the ass. And like sometimes, I'll break the film on mine, which I say film, and it could be like three or four inches' thick. But then, if I don't get it around the edges, then it like scratches you when you get in. It sucks. So, how did you make it not suck?

[01:16:02]Jason Stauffer:  Ours makes ice along the bottom. So, it'll develop a sheet of ice along the bottom. And then, we've designed it so that once it reaches down to a certain temperature, the refrigeration system kicks off. There's a very small warming element in there, not really much to raise the water temperature, but enough to detach that ice, and it floats to the top. And then, like you said, use like the kettlebell or the mason, you break it up.

[01:16:29]Luke Storey:  But it doesn't seem like it all gets stuck to the sides like mine.

[01:16:31]Jason Stauffer:  It doesn't, no.

[01:16:32]Luke Storey:  Yeah, it's just floating in the middle there, which is ideal, because I really like there to be ice in there, too.

[01:16:38]Jason Stauffer:  Oh, yes.

[01:16:42]Luke Storey:  Talk about that.

[01:16:42]Adrienne Jezick:  I want two to three inches thick. I want them big, the size of basketballs. Part of it is that gravity weight, like gravity blanket feel, like you feel like it's pressing it on you, so it's kind of like a cold hug. And then, the clinking, and then seeing the ice, like it readies my brain for the experience. It's like it can be 33 degrees, it can be 32.8, and not have a lick of ice in it, but I don't feel the same as when I get to be in there with my chunks. Like my chunks and my friends.

[01:17:13]Luke Storey:  That's true, not the chunks aforementioned, with someone leaving-

[01:17:18]Adrienne Jezick:  Right. The good, clean ozone-generated ice chunks.

[01:17:21]Luke Storey:  Wow. Yeah, that's really true, about that feeling of the weighted blanket, right? 

[01:17:26]Adrienne Jezick:  Yeah.

[01:17:26]Luke Storey:  There is a different sensory experience. I never thought about that. That's so interesting. I just know I prefer it and it's really hard to dial in if you don't have the right gear. So, that's interesting. So, you achieve the perfect hot, cold balance. In terms of each of your favorite temperature, do you have like one temperature that you like or that you try to keep the baths to maintain?

[01:17:49]Jason Stauffer:  The colder the better for me, so I do like it at that 32, 33 degrees, again, for that vasomotor constructive response. Sometimes, I'll get into one that's like 40, 45, and I'll hang out for a while, and it's nice and it's refreshing, especially when it's 125 degrees in Phoenix, and that feels really good. But if I'm really trying to forge myself, if I'm really trying to stress myself into a stronger material, then yeah, between 32 and 33. Anything colder than that, it's just a frozen block of water, ice.

[01:18:29]Luke Storey:  Physics tends to work that way.

[01:18:31]Jason Stauffer:  Which actually, that's really good, because the other cold option out there is the cryotherapy, right? 

[01:18:39]Luke Storey:  Oh, I wanted to ask about that.

[01:18:41]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. So, that's super cold, super dry gas. And you see those big negative numbers, it was negative 200 degrees Fahrenheit or something like that, that can harm you. That has the potential of harming you. That's why you've got to wear the things on your hands, your feet. You have to cover up those sensitive parts, those parts that really need that cold therapy the most, because you can actually get yourself frostbite.

[01:19:05] There's an NFL player, was an NFL player, who got frostbite on one of his feet in a cryotherapy chamber and actually lost a chunk of tissue, had to be amputated off. And so, that's the end of your NFL career. And so, there's the potential in a cryotherapy chamber that uses those super dry, super cold gases to harm someone. The cold water can't do that. It's not cold enough. 

[01:19:35] Even though the thermodynamic properties of water will give you a deeper and kind of more uncomfortable, but a deeper therapy in a shorter amount of time, it doesn't have the ability to harm you. Really, the only negative outcome, there are two potential negative outcomes of deliberate cold exposure in water, one of them, it doesn't even happen very often, is called chilblains, which is almost just like a sunburn, but it's a cold burn. And some people get this.

[01:20:05] I've only heard of a few people getting this after doing ice baths several days in a row. The other one is hypothermia. So, hypothermia is a drop in core body temperature that can be very dangerous for us. And it can actually kill you. But hypothermia takes a long time to kick in. You would really have to be in there for like 20 minutes, and you would be shivering, uncontrol all of the alarm bells, the real alarm bells that are set into our mind and in our biology would be going off for like five, 10 minutes.

[01:20:37] Like you would just be uncontrollable shivering, and everything in your being would be like, get the hell out of here. And then, as long as you're able to go into a warmer environment, as long as it's not freezing in the room that you get out of the forage or the outside, you get out and into, as long as you're able to bring that temperature back up, you're going to be okay. And that's just not the case with the cryotherapy, with the super cold, super dry gasses. They just have that potential of harming a person very quickly. 

[01:21:09]Luke Storey:  And then, like you don't get the benefit of putting your hands and your feet in, right?

[01:21:12]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. You've got to cover the parts of you that needs that therapy the most.

[01:21:16]Luke Storey:  Yeah. So, I like me some cryotherapy. It's fast and refreshing, but it by no means has the same effect as getting in water. I mean, if you get in really cold water, it's to the bone, you know what I mean? It's not just like, woohoo, my skin's tingly. It's like my femur is tingly on the inside of the marrow.

[01:21:37]Jason Stauffer:  My arm hair is right awake, and now, it's [making sounds] .

[01:21:39]Luke Storey:  Yeah. And then, what about duration? How long is the right time or your preferred time to get in?

[01:21:46]Adrienne Jezick:  On average, three to five minutes. And it depends on what I'm working on, but I try not to focus on time. So, one of the things I do, I like to know how long I'm in there, but I'll set my phone out of sight. I push the stopwatch, I immediately get in. And then, I trust my body. And when my body says it's time to get out, as they know it's not, we're going to wait a little longer, and I swear, it's almost always three minutes and 34 seconds. 

[01:22:09] It's like my body, even when I'm like, no, I'm going to push a little longer, no, I'm going to push a little longer, then I get out, and it's like 3, 34 every time, but there are times when I'm working on things or like if I start to experience some leg or joint pain, I'll do six or seven minutes. Just depends on what I'm working on. It depends on, how many ice baths have I had that day? How many have I had that week? Because all of those things can be factors as well.

[01:22:35]Luke Storey:  Are there times when you do more than one a day?

[01:22:38]Adrienne Jezick:  Oh, yeah, especially in Phoenix in the summertime. I mean, we just moved into our commercial facility in November. And prior to that, us and our team, we were working outside, 120, 125 in our backyard, we would go throughout the day. You start your day, you do it before lunch, do it after lunch, do it before dinner, you do it after dinner. So, you could do three, four, or five in a day, no problem, as long as your body continues to warm itself up. There isn't really like a limit.

[01:23:06]Luke Storey:  Yeah. In LA, when I was at home and it was warm out, I probably do two, sometimes, three a day. Yeah, especially any time I start to get sort of groggy and brain fog vibes. Like before interviews, I love doing ice baths, because I'm just like my best self, super on point. Yeah, it's amazing. Then, what's your duration? Around the same, three to five minutes?

[01:23:29]Jason Stauffer:  Three to five minutes. When I was first getting into the practice, I'd gone as much as 10 to 15. I was really kind of pushing myself at those like freezing temperatures. And then, there was one day I did 30 or 35 minutes, but it was warmer. It was like between 40 and 45. And I knew somebody was going to do that. I think by this point, we had decided we were going to make a product, and I'm like, I knew somebody was going to do that and I wanted that first somebody to be me, so I could really see like, what's going to happen if somebody gets in here and just tries to macho themselves into half-an-hour? And that recovery was tough. It was painful. But again, going back to the difference between discomfort and harm, like I was not harmed. And so, that was important to me, to push it to that at least that one time. Now, it's like, yeah, two to five minutes.

[01:24:21]Luke Storey:  I did one of those, too, about 20 minutes. I don't know how cold it was, but it was on the colder side, and yeah, my teeth were shattering. I was like, okay, I think I've proved to myself I can do this one time. Around five minutes for me, I think, is usually when I feel complete. But then, again, mine hasn't been as cold now that I went in you all's. Yeah, I'm from Texas now.

[01:24:47]Adrienne Jezick:  You're acclimating well. 

[01:24:48]Jason Stauffer:  Wow. That's fast. I think we've been there five hours and I've already said it two times.

[01:24:51]Luke Storey:  Yeah. But after I did, I mean, not that I haven't done cold ones at home, but I don't know, there's something about that that was different. I don't know. It was just hell of cold. And I was like, yeah. I probably stayed in there, what, five minutes maybe?

[01:25:04]Adrienne Jezick:  No, you were in there over six minutes.

[01:25:04]Luke Storey:  Oh, okay.

[01:25:06]Adrienne Jezick:  And it was your second ice bath that day, so I want to credit you for that.

[01:25:09]Luke Storey:  That's true. It had been like two hours before I did your bath over at Optimyze. I forgot about that. Yeah. But I think the same with you, sometimes, I'll set the timer, and often, I just forget, but I can just kind of feel when it's been around five minutes. That usually seems like the sweet spot. Let me see if there is anything else I wanted to cover with you guys while I have you, so I don't regret it later.

[01:25:32]Adrienne Jezick:  I wanted to tell you about Epsom salts in the ice bath. 

[01:25:36]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah, magnesium.

[01:25:37]Luke Storey:  What? You can do that? 

[01:25:38]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. 

[01:25:38]Adrienne Jezick:  Jason, tell him all about it.

[01:25:40]Luke Storey:  I thought you would rust the metal. 

[01:25:44]Jason Stauffer:  No. Yeah. And we have an article up on our website, if you go to the journal link, where all of our articles are, Tom has done some work here with magnesium. And because Epsom salts isn't salt, it's magnesium. And so, it can absorb transdermally. In fact, we were just listening to your podcast with Ian Clark.

[01:26:08]Luke Storey:  Oh, yeah.

[01:26:09]Jason Stauffer:  About like the spray.

[01:26:10]Luke Storey:  I love the Activation. 

[01:26:12]Adrienne Jezick:  I love that stuff.

[01:26:13]Luke Storey:  What's it called, EASE? Mag EASE or something.

[01:26:14]Jason Stauffer:  Something.

[01:26:15]Luke Storey:  Yeah, it's amazing.

[01:26:17]Jason Stauffer:  And so, putting the Epsom salts into the Forge, we are finding, there's some good way of soaking in that magnesium transdermally. There's something in that article that Tom did about how it just gets into where it needs to get into better transdermally than it does like orally or anything like that.

[01:26:39]Luke Storey:  Yeah, that's so cool. You can also get the magnesium flakes, too. I mean, they're much more expensive, but it's incredible stuff. A friend of mine was doing that with the homemade ice bath like I have, which is like metal inside, but it's probably aluminum, there's some cheesy metal, and he oxidized and basically rusted the whole thing, and it got holes in it. So, I was like, note to self, don't do that. But yours is thick, like stainless steel.

[01:27:08]Jason Stauffer:  The one you were in was stainless steel. We do make them, and there's zinc-dipped galvanized steel, which it tends to get like a patina on it over time. 

[01:27:18]Luke Storey:  But it doesn't get holes in it so far?

[01:27:27]Jason Stauffer:  Not yet. I mean, yeah. New company, new products.

[01:27:28]Luke Storey:  Yeah. We'll find out. No promises.

[01:27:28]Adrienne Jezick:  You've got a warranty.

[01:27:28]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah. The first one in the market are just now becoming a little over two years old. Yeah.

[01:27:33]Luke Storey:  That's cool. Yeah, the R&D process of seeing what lasts and what doesn't, you start to find out. But that's very cool, because I love doing Epson salt, magnesium flake baths, and stuff, and I just thought until recently, I forget one of my interviews, someone was telling me, I think it was about like just, yeah, it was about water filtration. And I was under the impression that you only absorb water and the chemicals in the water in your skin if it's warm water, because it like opens your pores. And whoever it was, I forget, maybe it was Robert Slovak or one of the water experts, and they were like, oh, no, it doesn't matter the temperature of the water, water goes into your skin and your skin is permeable. So, that's cool that you could do the magnesium in there and still get it even though it's not like a hot bath.

[01:28:19]Jason Stauffer:  Yeah, absolutely.

[01:28:20]Luke Storey:  Shit, that's badass. Is there anything else in this?

[01:28:23]Adrienne Jezick:  The salts do take a little longer to dissolve, so keep that in mind when you're sitting down at the bottom.

[01:28:26]Luke Storey:  Oh, right.

[01:28:28]Adrienne Jezick:  And even our zinc-dipped galvanized tubs, the zinc is in the water. And we found that there are benefits to that as well. Like it just makes your skin really soft. And zinc is supposed to help with mood stability as well. So, haven't done like any scientific research on it yet, it's just pretty much anecdotal of, these are the experiences we've had.

[01:28:49]Luke Storey:  That's cool. It makes sense when you go on a hot spring and each hot spring has its own unique profile of minerals, some have a bunch of lithium, some have a bunch of silica, et cetera, and they do have unique properties, right? The ancient peoples that use these for healing weren't superstitious. Like they knew, go to that one over there, that makes you happy. That one relaxes you. That one makes your back not hurt. Yeah, that's very cool. Well, I think that's it, you guys. Let me just check my notes, make sure I didn't miss anything [making sounds] . No, I think we got it. That's my second one today, I didn't even have to look at my notes and I got everything done. Yay, brain. 

[01:29:26]Jason Stauffer:  Well done.

[01:29:27]Adrienne Jezick:  Well done.

[01:29:27]Luke Storey:  Thank you, brain.

[01:29:28] Yeah. Really, a pleasure to meet both of you. I'm so glad that it was in the Divine Plan that I just got kind of stuck in Phoenix and got to come meet you guys in person, because I've really been shopping around for an ice bath and also just finding a company to work with that I dig. And like I would just be friends with you guys if you were just two people that liked cold water, you know what I mean? So, really, it's fun to get to know you and I'm just such a supporter of your mission. You're doing something really great for the world.

[01:29:59]Jason Stauffer:  Thanks so much.

[01:30:00]Adrienne Jezick:  Thank you, Luke.

[01:30:00]Luke Storey:  Yeah, it's really, really great to chat with you all.

[01:30:08]Adrienne Jezick:  Yeah.

[01:30:15]

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