[00:00:00] Luke: How did you two first join forces? You're, in a way, such an unlikely couple as business partners and practitioners, yet at the same time, having worked with you pretty intensively, there's a very obvious and awesome synergy. But I don't know if I ever asked you, like, when did you first meet up and start doing things together?

[00:00:21] Dr. Amy: Yeah. It started back when I was tired of running a big interdisciplinary clinic. I had a toddler. I was feeling overworked, and I wanted to spend more time at home. And so I literally just cold called everybody within a zip code that had a holistic place that maybe would have a space to rent. And that's how I found Dr. Drew.

[00:00:39] Just called him straight up and he's like, "Wait, how did you get my number?" I'm like, "From Google. Do you have office space?" But I think that what's maybe the most interesting was that I wasn't paying that much attention to the office search project. And then I lost total focus on it because my sister had a massive neurological accident.

[00:01:01] So at 19 years old, she was rendered, basically completely disabled, unable to speak or feed herself. And so really how I knew to trust him was I took her to all of the neurologists. They all said she had a sensory processing disorder, a thing that had just come on at the level that she would be rendered disabled.

[00:01:23] And I'm like, "Okay, what do I do now?" And so I brought her to him. And he fixed it. She was able to walk and talk. She was able to speak. She was able to feed herself, and she was then able to go on to finish her bachelor's degree and get her master's degree and write a book and all kinds of stuff. It was an incredible bonding experience because I literally didn't know him at all, but I had no option. The only option that the typical neurologist could offer was Xanax.

[00:01:56] Luke: Oh, my God.

[00:01:57] Dr. Amy: Yeah. It was terrible. It was terrible.

[00:01:59] Luke: Yeah. Your brain's not working right. Let's give you some benzos.

[00:02:02] Dr. Amy: Yeah. So that you forget that it's that bad.

[00:02:04] Luke: Yikes. That sounds like a horrific existence.

[00:02:08] Dr. Amy: Yeah. She was in a lot of pain.

[00:02:10] Luke: Oh, man. What brought that on?

[00:02:12] Dr. Amy: It was actually a small amount of cannabis.

[00:02:16] Luke: Really?

[00:02:17] Dr. Amy: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:18] Luke: Wow, wow. And it just triggered something in her.

[00:02:22] Dr. Amy: Yeah. She was in a living room. She was 19 years old with three friends. Everybody else was fine. There was nothing wrong with the weed. It had that response for her.

[00:02:33] Luke: Wow, wow.

[00:02:34] Dr. Amy: So not everybody's wired the same. As much as I can--

[00:02:37] Luke: That's why I don't smoke weed.

[00:02:39] Dr. Amy: Good idea.

[00:02:40] Luke: I think I'm wired the same way.

[00:02:42] Dr. Amy: Yeah. It's not really helpful for most people. Really.

[00:02:46] Luke: Yeah. When I was a stoner for the first half of my life, some people that weren't weed smokers would always say, "Oh, I don't smoke. It makes me paranoid." I was like, "Oh my God. It's like I can't breathe without being high."

[00:03:00] And after having, I don't know, 25-plus years away from it, I accidentally had some version of THC in a gummy, some legal Texas gummy, and I wasn't really expecting it, and it was horrifying. I was like, "Now I know what they were talking about, the non stoners." I was super paranoid. It was horrible. I'm like, how do people do this shit? It's crazy.

[00:03:23] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[00:03:25] Luke: That's amazing. Run us through what the protocol was with her sister?

[00:03:31] Dr. Drew: Well, you take a brain map first. You want to see what's going on and what areas, what networks and nodes in the brain, how they communicate or don't communicate. And like with the sensory processing that was going on or not going on, it was being overemphasized in certain areas and underemphasized in other areas.

[00:03:57] So it means the communication was broken in very specific integration areas in the brain. So the information coming in through vision and through auditory, and even through proprioception or movement was not being integrated properly. So you think you're at one place, you think you hear something, you think you see something, and it's not being basically categorized appropriately through deeper areas of the brain.

[00:04:27] Luke: And so you did the brain mapping. I'm going to very gently hold up for those watching the video. We have Dr. Drew's apparatus here. What is this thing called?

[00:04:38] Dr. Drew: It's an amplifier build in with sensors. And it's a brain mapping [Inaudible].

[00:04:45] Luke: Is it the same as a QEEG?

[00:04:48] Dr. Drew: The QEEG is what we get out of it. That's the report.

[00:04:51] Luke: Oh, okay. That's the data.

[00:04:51] Dr. Drew: Yeah, that's the data.

[00:04:53] Luke: So this is technology that captures the data.

[00:04:56] Dr. Amy: Correct.

[00:04:57] Luke: Okay.

[00:04:57] Dr. Amy: And then EEG is an electrical study of the brain. So it's not measuring blood flow. It's just measuring how the electrical current is conducting through the various structures of the brain. And yeah, the QEEG is actually the synthesized data. So the raw data comes through squiggling lines on a page, like, 19 seismographs moving up and down.

[00:05:20] And then we've got the QEEG. That's the colorful page that he shows to you or to somebody to give the overview. But it's like looking at the pie chart to the raw data, basically.

[00:05:31] Luke: Right, right. Yeah. I remember actually, early on when I started doing neurofeedback and I didn't have the cartoon version of it, just a bunch of squiggly lines, and I forget. It might've been Andrew Hill in LA is probably the practitioner. And he is like, "Oh, this is what that means, and this means." I'm like, "This means nothing to me." If you didn't explain it to me, it would look like a kid got an Etch A Sketch and just went crazy.

[00:05:55] Dr. Amy: Exactly.

[00:05:56] Luke: So with her sister, you did the brain mapping, determine what areas of the brain were overactive, underactive, where you were lacking coherence. And then tell me about the actual protocol that you applied to start bringing things into balance.

[00:06:11] Dr. Drew: Typically with someone like that, I've had a number of them over the years, we'll do one or two sessions a day initially to get them out of that desperate position that they're in so that they can function. And then you can space it out longer and longer depending on how well they do. And this is learning.

[00:06:31] We're giving them feedback on these certain areas in the brain. And when we feed that back to them, they learn to control those mechanisms internally, those firings of certain brainwaves and electrical levels in the brain. Yeah.

[00:06:48] Luke: So Drew, you're an OG in the brain space, but I never really got your origin story on that. I just knew that you were a very reputable guy and I came, and did both of your program, which we're going to talk about at Holon in Northern California. But I've just heard your name over the years, like, "Oh, he's the guy. He's the neurofeedback guy. He's the OG." But how did you first get into this line of work and research to begin with?

[00:07:15] Dr. Drew: I saw EEG in school early on. We did some stuff in biofeedback, and I just became fascinated with it. Instead of just talking to someone for 20 years hoping to get them out of anxiety or depression, what can you really do? And this had such an impact on people very quickly. Early on, back in the mid '90s, we didn't have the setups that we have now.

[00:07:43] We had one or two channels that we were working with. And luckily, I got trained with the originators of the field, basically with Dr. Sterman and Dr. Auer. And Barry Sterman, back in the '68 to '70, came up with SMR sensory motor rhythm with cats, and then they started treating epilepsy.

[00:08:11] And then it went into more alpha training after that, and it fell out of favor during that because people were making ridiculous claims for you could do everything. But then in the '80s, as the computing power came up, we were able to do a lot more. And then by the '90s, we were able to work with a lot of mood disorders and attention issues, and addictions were a big thing that we went through with people.

[00:08:43] Luke: How do you use this technology for addiction? What part of the brain is overactive or underactive when people have those kind of tendencies?

[00:08:53] Dr. Drew: There's a few different areas. Part of it is our reward system in the brain, always looking for that hit, that dopamine hit. And others that we're discovering now that we've been working with, but we didn't know how impactful they were, is the cerebellum.

[00:09:10] Dr. Amy: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:11] Dr. Drew: And it has huge impact on addictions and how we form habits and how it really infiltrates our whole system to basically get that high. Like with alcoholism, a lot of it is lack of alpha, a very specific brainwave. And people don't produce it, but when they drink, alpha comes up and they feel a lot better during that time.

[00:09:36] Luke: Is that why people drink when they go to concerts?

[00:09:40] Dr. Drew: Maybe, because it does bring up alpha and it inhibits part of the prefrontal cortex so you feel more fluid, more easygoing typically. And if you don't have control of those areas, it takes control.

[00:09:57] Luke: So in working with you both, Amy, as I said, you guys have this really interesting synergy. Drew is the analytical brainiac science, one of the pair. And then you have these incredible intuitive and spiritual insight gifts. So talk to me about your path and how you developed that within yourself and also in working with clients. Because then I think we'll be able to figure out how those two merged and created what you guys have created, which is super cool.

[00:10:32] Dr. Amy: Yeah, thanks. When I was a kid, I didn't really know it, but I would just sit and listen to the wind, or I had a telepathic relationship with my cat, who is my best friend. And I didn't really know-- nobody really knows what it's like to be them as compared to someone else. All we know is what it is to be ourselves.

[00:10:52] But I did not know that I had anything unusual going on until I was actually done with my first round of medical school. And so I became people's primary care provider and they were coming to me. Especially, this is 22, 23 years ago, the people that come into primary care to go to an acupuncturist Chinese medicine practitioner were really, really sick a lot of the times.

[00:11:17] They had been absolutely just chewed up and spit out by the medical community, and it was more of an act of desperation back then. Now it's more normal. And so what I was noticing is that these people were coming to me and just like, wow, they're so sick. They're going to die.

[00:11:33] There is nothing that will save them. And so I began to live my life even more deeply so as a deep prayer, as a deep desire to be able to help people. And I feel like that that opening that I had inside of myself allowed me to feel and experience and know things that I wasn't supposed to know about a total stranger that would walk in.

[00:12:02] And then also it's like, yeah, these needles are these herbs and things that are actually so powerful. People don't maybe understand the full power that they have. But when it's this sort of a critical condition, they're really unwell folks. You ask for something more. So it was then that I started to notice that something was really different, when I knew things about strangers that it wasn't possible for me to know.

[00:12:27] And when I could lay on hands and basically create a radical transformation in their health, in their awareness of themselves, in their awareness of what their life was. I could sit with them and they would understand what reality was and who they were at a totally different level just by opening up the energy, opening up the field.

[00:12:47] So it was interesting because, actually, in the duality that we are, he's actually quite spiritual, and I'm actually quite nerdy scientific as well. We just play it out. We have our strengths.

[00:12:59] Luke: Right, right. I think, in what you do at Holon, based on my experience, it's obvious you both have a lot of each of those elements. Good cop, bad cop isn't the right way to say it, but it's like you have very defined roles.

[00:13:17] Dr. Amy: Definitely.

[00:13:17] Dr. Drew: Very yin and yang.

[00:13:19] Luke: Yeah, in your methodology. So you might share something and we will create context for this in a minute, but say in one of the debriefing sessions, after doing a bunch of neurofeedback training, you'll have some insights into one of us, the participants, that are just purely intuitive.

[00:13:35] And then Drew might add in, yeah, that's because you showed high theta here, and he is talking about the physicality of the brain. But then Drew will also bust out with some super esoteric shit on top of that. And then you'll come back around with, "Oh, actually, did you think about this and that?" So it's clear that both of you have your feet on both sides of that spectrum. But, I find it really interesting how you guys dance together in such a neat way. That's super cool.  

[00:14:06] Dr. Drew: Yeah, we've done that for a long time.

[00:14:08] Dr. Amy: Yeah. It's been about 14 years or so.

[00:14:10] Luke: Really? You guys have been working together that long.

[00:14:12] Dr. Amy: Mm-hmm. Not the entire time through, but yeah, we started 14 years ago, in a brick-and-mortar practice, and people would come to us every week. Was the model back then. We just hadn't realized the power of working inside of intensive formats in the ways that we do now. Yeah.

[00:14:31] He was basically rewiring at that time. It was a lot of executives. So he would be rewiring their neurology and then I would show them how to use it. Because the analogy is that you could have a sports car in the garage and never know it. And that's definitely what was the case with my brain intuitively. Also for leadership traits that I just didn't know I had.

[00:14:50] And I know that that's the case for so many people. One of the most important things I want everybody to know is intuition isn't just for the chosen few or the cool kids. It's actually part of our innate wiring. And it's what we're designed for.

[00:15:03] And if we don't believe that about ourselves, it won't necessarily be elicited, and we have to want for that to come. And the intuitive capacity is really our capacity to navigate the world in the most strategic and brilliant way with the most profound leadership, with kindness, with wisdom.

[00:15:21] So it's not just something for the esoterics. And I think that's a part of what really, in this conversation of what links us together and what makes us really work as a team, is that we're both very grounded in practicality. We do not want to just study. My undergrad was I was going to be a cognitive psychologist, which means I was going to study the brain for the rest of my life and how it impacted behavior. So I was very nerdy, and I had done all of that stuff. I had used to be an atheist before I had a spiritual awakening at 18.

[00:15:52] Luke: Really?

[00:15:52] Dr. Amy: Yeah, totally. I was a complete atheist. I was studying the brain at 18.

[00:15:56] Luke: That's hard to imagine because you're someone I would consider very tapped in to the spiritual realms.

[00:16:02] Dr. Amy: But that's how much pain I was in. That's how shut down I was. And that's why I really want to be able to encourage people to come through their pain, to come through their shutdown. Because what's underneath often that mountain of pain is actually an immense amount of wisdom and an immense amount of capacity, but it takes stepping into belief and doing some healing work to be able to get there.

[00:16:27] The primal healing might be the feeling of belonging, the feeling of belonging to each other as humans, inside of community, and also just belonging to the all that is. Because otherwise what happens is we get very distracted into believing that we are these single selves, and we have to fight for our survival, and we're in and on our own or those kind of things.

[00:16:53] Anyways, being able to guide people from the start in a very structured way for their health in very early days of my career, but also being able to be their intuitive guide because their health, it's the end process of a spiritual or an emotional breakdown.

[00:17:13] Something wrong in the body just means there's something wrong elsewhere that has crystallized into the body. So being able to guide people through that practicality and then ending up helping the people to run organizations. So I've helped to advise and scale or facilitate everything from 10 million to 3-billion-dollar sized organizations, and it's all understanding systems, and it's all being extremely practical while using intuitive capacities.

[00:17:41] So when it comes to then, yeah, if we see something in someone, if we see a trait in them, he has the neurobiological explanation, and I can explain it on an energetic level, on the soul level, and bring it so that they can hear in both languages, in fluent tongue, how it is that they're experiencing reality or the truth of who they in particular are.

[00:18:06] And that's a really practical thing to help somebody to drop into. It's a profound opening to have that recognition. And I would say the confirmation of data. People love data, and it's helpful.

[00:18:21] Luke: I love it. Today when we got to look at my before and after brain map-- so for context, I went through y'all's program called Holon in December, which is a week. It felt like it could have been three months or three years. You're in a no-time zone. It's very much like a medicine experience without putting anything else in your body. But shortly after that, I guess it was a month and a half later, my dad died.

[00:18:50] And so that was a whole different thing. And then I just got back from Peru, as you know. So the time from walking in the door at Holon to the time now has been a whole lifetime in and of itself just because of life circumstances and experiences. But when we did the brain mapping today, which is the before and after extensively, right when I arrive at your facility, you do brain mapping.

[00:19:15] We see some things that need some work. Did a lot of work, which we can talk about. And then when you came in today, I had no expectations of what we would find. I know that my life has improved in a number of ways that are quantifiable despite some rocky times in between. But if Drew wasn't able to explain to me what we were looking at, I would just be looking at a bunch of squiggly lines on a picture of a head.

[00:19:43] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[00:19:43] Luke: But when you start to explain it, I go, "Oh, that tracks." That makes sense because of my subjective experience and just my own intuition on how my experience of reality feels different. So I love that you guys have the quantifiable data to show what you're doing and what progress is being made.

[00:20:03] Dr. Amy: Right. And the first thing that happened when we got here today was I had a look at you and I said, "Whoa, you understand so much more about your past. And there's so much that has shifted, and I can just see it."

[00:20:15] You hadn't even hardly said two words to me, and I could feel and see, and I could relay to you all of what I could see is different. And I hadn't thought about it, but then he follows immediately after with that EEG, and then now we see it in terms of scientific data. EEG is the same that any neurologist might use.

[00:20:36] But the difference also is Dr. Drew's capacity to interpret the data. The part in the origin story, he was an electrical engineer and a nuclear engineer. And so he understood how to read those waves.

[00:20:58] Dr. Drew: Oh, yeah. Well, I was just on the submarine, basically.

[00:21:01] Luke: You were on a submarine.

[00:21:02] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[00:21:02] Luke: Did you get claustrophobic?

[00:21:04] Dr. Drew: No.

[00:21:04] Luke: Really?

[00:21:05] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[00:21:05] Luke: The idea of being on a submarine is terrifying to me.

[00:21:08] Dr. Drew: I wouldn't do it now, but back then, I was 19, 20, 21 years old, that timeframe, and spent a lot of time underwater. And basically, you're reading electronics all the time and fixing stuff because you can't call in a tech when something goes down.

[00:21:31] Luke: Yeah, calling tech support.

[00:21:31] Dr. Drew: Yeah. So anyways, the electrical components felt I was able to look at those and look at the waves and go, "Oh, that's very familiar to me," and I really enjoyed it. So I've always been good with the electronics and speaks to me like she speaks with energies.

[00:21:54] Luke: The thing that I think most of us miss, and I did for a long time, is that we are electric, as evidenced in the signals coming off the brain. So it's like, why wouldn't we be paying attention to that and seeing what's going on, looking under the hood. For people that haven't heard my prior episodes on neurofeedback, of which I've done a few-- and by the way, we'll put the show notes for this one, you guys, at lukestorey.com/holon. H-O-L-O-N.

[00:22:23] So I've covered this topic a few times, but it's been quite some time because it's not something I've personally done in many years before coming to your intensive. So for those that don't know, Drew, would you break down what is neurofeedback brain training, the operational aspects of it?

[00:22:42] Dr. Drew: So basically what we're doing is operating conditioning for neurons and other cells in the brain too. But when the neurons are producing their electrical frequencies, we're looking at that and aggregating the information basically in the computer. And we give it ranges, and we look at a certain range.

[00:23:05] We want more of this or we want less of that. And depending on how your brain responds, it gets auditory and visual feedback. Sometimes kinesthetic too. We get tactile. So it'll vibrate too. But mainly visual and auditory information. And you're getting thousands of information bites coming to you, so the brain learns how to respond correctly. And once it learns how to be in that state or that frequency, it can be there consistently if it wants.

[00:23:40] Luke: So the way I have experienced neural feedback is I have some electrodes on my head, clips on my ears. I'm looking at a monitor with some version of a cartoon or video game looking thing. And then when I arrive at certain states, there'll be noise that gets louder, and things change on the screen.

[00:24:05] And so the way that I see it is the brain talking to itself, and you as consciousness are the bystander observing it in the best-case scenario. Because it's not something you can control. You can't be like, "Well, I'm going to think really hard and make beta."

[00:24:23] I used to think when I would do neurofeedback that I was controlling the little car on the screen or something. The practitioner be like, "Don't bother, dude. Just relax. Sit there." You literally don't have to do anything, which is hard for a type A personality. You're like, "What am I even doing here? Just sitting here?" Yes, exactly.

[00:24:40] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[00:24:40] Luke: But would that be an accurate assessment that the brain? Is it communicating with itself in a feedback loop?

[00:24:45] Dr. Drew: That's exactly what it is. And when you're getting that information in, the neurons are basically responding quicker than your prefrontal cortex is saying, "Hey, you're doing this or doing that." By the time that you're aware of this, it's already happened in the neurons. It's already in the past. Kids do great at this. They just go in and do it. It's the overthinkers that had the hardest time learning or relearning how to learn in that context.

[00:25:15] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[00:25:16] Luke: And then what about the different brainwave states? I think some people have a general understanding of this, but how much of those impact are daily experience in our level of joy, serenity, productivity, focus? How does the way our brain behaves actually impact us in real time?

[00:25:39] Dr. Drew: So just to get this out of the way, we have all the waves all the time. Because everyone says, "I'm in alpha." Well, yes, but you still have beta. You still have gamma. You still have theta. You have delta. So we have a range of frequencies that we go through, and we're actually not classifying them as much in just the ranges. We're getting much more specific about, okay, this is 12 hertz, or this is 40 hertz, or 42 hertz.

[00:26:07] We're looking specifically, like your pants size. Your pants size for you is very specific to you. If your alpha is at 11 hertz or 11 cycles per second, this is where we want to train. But if it's too high, we want to bring it back down. And again, if someone's too low, let's say 9 hertz, when they close their eyes, we want to bring that back up to a center so their speed processing is better.

[00:26:37] So it ranges from delta, which is more of a sleep type of frequency, zero to four hertz. And then 4 to 8 hertz is theta, more of a dream-like frequencies. And we get there with really deep meditation, hypnosis too. And then alpha is typically what we have when we close our eyes and meditate.

[00:27:00] Alpha is like the bridge to everything. And then we get into beta, what we're in right now, talking back and forth. And then higher beta is more actionable, urgent, anxiety type of frequencies. And then we get into gamma, and gamma's an odd little frequency.

[00:27:20] It gets more into joy and consciousness and the ahas. You can take despair ideas to ideas that are completely opposite. Be able to hold them in your mind and pull them together. It's rather fascinating what it can do.

[00:27:39] Luke: So gamma could be the cure for cognitive dissonance?

[00:27:41] Dr. Amy: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:41] Dr. Drew: It typically is. And this is what I discovered.

[00:27:45] Luke: We should get the entire country on gamma. 24/7. We're so polarized. Because people, well, if this is true, that can't be true. And oftentimes it's somewhere in the middle.

[00:27:55] Dr. Drew: It is. And I saw this early on with the autistic spectrum. The kids that had almost no gamma were not cognitively engaged at all. They couldn't control, and they would spin out really easily. And once we started introducing gamma, specifically for their disorders, all of a sudden they started becoming aware. Language came online. They were able to control themselves better.

[00:28:22] And then when I started working with monks and high level athletes, probably a decade later, we really saw the integration of gamma during those-- fighter pilots were really good at it. The high-level monks are really good at it too. And once they train 20, 30 years, they're really able to get that up.

[00:28:47] Luke: Wow. So interesting. So you can tell by looking at someone's brain if they've been meditating for 40 years?

[00:28:54] Dr. Drew: Yes.

[00:28:54] Luke: Really?

[00:28:55] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[00:28:55] Dr. Amy: You can also tell if they've had trauma that they haven't recovered from, even if they think that they have.

[00:29:01] Luke: Ooh. I can think of a couple of people like that.

[00:29:02] Dr. Amy: Yeah. The alpha will still be suppressed.

[00:29:05] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[00:29:06] Dr. Amy: So one of the things that we love to do too is just to have people understand a lot of the times popular science or whatever might be just really only about the waves, but how those waves get formed is actually a whole complex set of functions that goes on down deeper into the brain.

[00:29:28] And so part of what Dr. Drew is speaking to is like, look, just so everybody knows, we actually have all of them going on. It is all of the time. And there are important fluctuations that basically regulate our state. So if we're in that meditative state, we probably have more alpha, but we still have theta, and we still have beta.

[00:29:51] So it's interesting how, I think that the brain can be oversimplified, and part of what's important is to know that even within the waves conversation, that if you have maybe a hot cingulate somewhere in the brain, so let's say it's a quarter-sized spot in the brain that's just going bananas, it's going to impair how those waves get formed or how beautifully they spread or what the height of the waves are, which these are all things that matter. But there are so many structures, like the cerebellum. When the medical literature started to show that the cerebellum plays a function in addiction and knowing that we could all be addicted.

[00:30:32] It's not just alcoholism. It can be phone, or it can be food, or it can be just tuning out. And how all of these deeper structures, the actual architecture of the anatomy of the brain plays into all of our waking reality. And it's actually a giant concert and symphony of things going on all at the same time that lends to our human experience. It's just fascinating.

[00:31:00] Dr. Drew: And it is just like that. It's a symphony. It's not just the trumpet playing or the violins. They all have their pieces in timing, and it's all timing. It's all communication. And if it's incorrect, you're going to get the wrong information at the wrong time.

[00:31:15] Luke: And you're going to act like an asshole.

[00:31:16] Dr. Drew: Could. You could.

[00:31:19] Luke: I'm speaking from past experience.

[00:31:20] Dr. Drew: Or you could space out. You just check out and there you go. The default mode grabs you and then all of a sudden you're in another world.

[00:31:28] Luke: What kind of brain mapping do you see for someone who has extreme brain fog from mold exposure or Lyme or any of the things that are known to cause that?

[00:31:40] Dr. Drew: So typically, and what we're seeing now, we're seeing a lot more now post-COVID. Because it affects blood flow. And we see a low energy signature, what we call blue brains in our map.

[00:31:57] Luke: From taking too much methylene blue?

[00:31:58] Dr. Amy: No.

[00:32:00] Luke: Someone sent me a study or something earlier today, and it was like, do you have blue brain from taking too much methylene blue? I was like, "Ah, Jesus." Just when you find something you think is really good for you, somebody discover something negative.

[00:32:12] Dr. Drew: Yeah. That was a horrible post.

[00:32:15] Luke: Oh, you saw that?

[00:32:16] Dr. Drew: I saw that too. Yes.

[00:32:17] Luke: I skimmed it. And it's funny, I used my intuition. Amy, you'd be proud of me.

[00:32:21] Dr. Amy: Good.

[00:32:21] Luke: And I was just like, "Eh, I don't need to look too deeply into that." It wasn't concerning to me for whatever reason.

[00:32:27] Dr. Drew: Because they're doing dye so that they can look at the brain better. So they have to get their story straight with that.

[00:32:34] Dr. Amy: Yeah.  Methylene blue can be used to cut tissue and put it on slides and have a look at it. That's what you mean. But that intuition is so important because even within the scientific literature, one of the things I learned early on when I was learning to be a researcher is that you can massage data to make it mean almost anything you want.

[00:32:53] And you can study whatever you think you believe in and then find information that can back that. But a lot of the times, the stuff that gets touted around, and again, the popular science or the biohacking communities is based off of really crappy data or from one particular study that may not have been maybe neutrally set up. Ultimately, it's all being run by people.

[00:33:16] Luke: Fallible people, yeah.

[00:33:17] Dr. Amy: Fallible people making scientific studies based on what their belief structures are. And it's easier to find stuff to reinforce your belief structure if you're setting it up that way.

[00:33:26] Luke: I'm pretty good at that. It's funny, I saw a Jack Kruse post something recently just shading on basically all scientific studies because they're all conducted under artificial blue light and high EMF environments. I was like, "Oh, shit. That's so true." If you're isolating a particular biological organism from the natural environment and creating a really artificial, harmful environment, you're going to get completely different results. It's like, wow, that's really interesting. That's a good point.

[00:33:57] Dr. Amy: Yeah. Totally. And it also works differently. Cells or atoms or whatever behave differently when they're observed, and the observer's point of view changes how they behave. So if you believe as a scientific researcher that something is not true and you set out to prove that it is not true, and what you're trying to measure is something that is more refined in its articulation, like intuition, maybe you can find it and maybe you can't. They still can prove it. I remember one of the studies that we like to talk about a lot is that people can actually predict what's coming next on a screen before it's been shown. So they'll have a--

[00:34:35] Dr. Drew: Physiologically, they'll be a signal that will come up a yay or nay for something negative coming up. So they're detecting it before it even comes up, even though it's random.

[00:34:47] Dr. Amy: Yeah. We both knew about this study probably 30 years ago. So part of the OG factor is like, how long have we been looking at all of this and how deeply do we understand the frame that science holds and the power that it can hold, especially now because people basically pray to data, and they don't necessarily think for themselves.

[00:35:07] And I think that that's lending us-- it's a short road from here for how that's going to-- it's not serving us now and it won't serve us very well basically if we don't think for ourselves. So to go back to the blue brain post, I'm so glad that you used your intuition and just shut that down. Because if it felt not true to you in that moment, that's all you need to know.

[00:35:29] Luke: Yeah, totally. I glanced at it and read a little bit, and I was just like, "Meh." I don't know why. I thought it was maybe because I don't want to stop taking methylene blue because it seems to really help me in a number of ways. So I was like, oh, I don't want to know if it's bad for me. But I think more than anything, I was just like, "I don't know." It just intuitively felt like hype.

[00:35:50] Dr. Drew: Well, it's also a polarizing post, and it gets interest and then--

[00:35:54] Luke: Right. We both saw it, right?

[00:35:55] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[00:35:55] Luke: There's billions of posts out there to see, and we both happened to see that one.

[00:36:00] Dr. Drew: But how many people are going to look at the study instead of just the picture going, "Oh, there's a blue brain?" That's bad. No, it doesn't work like that.

[00:36:08] Dr. Amy: That's it.

[00:36:09] Luke: On that note, what do you think of methylene blue in terms of brain--

[00:36:13] Dr. Drew: Depending on dosage, I really like it for a lot of people. There can be complications with it, blood pressure being one of them.

[00:36:23] Luke: If you're prone to low or high blood pressure?

[00:36:25] Dr. Drew: High blood pressure.

[00:36:26] Luke: Oh, okay.

[00:36:27] Dr. Drew: But it really comes down to dosage. Are you doing a minute dose, or are you doing big doses? So you have to look at the cognitive impact and the physiological impact of that. So again, it's going to be dose dependent.

[00:36:45] Luke: Yeah. I think part of that post is they were like, this is a pharmaceutical and it's petroleum-based and stuff. I'm like, "What isn't?" Half your supplements, more than half, probably are synthetic and made in a lab somewhere anyway. Does that mean they don't work? Not necessarily.

[00:37:00] Dr. Drew: Yeah. That's just like a straw man type of argument.

[00:37:04] Luke: Another thing I'm curious about is the effect of psychedelics on the brain. Have either of you mapped anyone or looked at what's happened when somebody takes a dose of 5-MeO-DMT or psilocybin underneath these things?

[00:37:20] Because when you're in those experiences, subjectively, at least for myself, I am always fascinated by and curious about what's going on in my brain because it feels so different. Everything about your reality is, especially with 5-MeO-- I remember the first time I did that, I felt like my entire life is going to be different after this.

[00:37:42] It felt like such a radical rewiring of my brain, which I think it was. But then a couple of days later I'm like, "Yeah, I'm me again." I think I reverted back in many ways, but some of those experiences can be so potent and profound. It seems like something really meaningful is happening in the brain.

[00:38:01] Dr. Drew: It depends on the substance, and I've mapped them a number of times over the years. Certain substances will have a longer half life in the brain and affect your neuroplasticity for a few days versus a week, versus a few weeks. You get the lighter ones like ketamine, two or three days, we typically see a good neuroplasticity afterwards. And then you get more of the psilocybin or the LSD a week to two weeks on that. And the longest one that I've seen so far is ibogaine. It's about a month to six weeks.

[00:38:41] Luke: Really?

[00:38:41] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[00:38:42] Luke: Interesting.

[00:38:43] Dr. Drew: It will give that neuroplasticity. Now what goes on in the brain during the time while they're taking it is different for each one of those. And it's different with each person depending on their capacity. So in certain ones, like what you were talking about with MeO, I see a lot of delta typically, really slow waves coming up.

[00:39:07] Luke: Really?

[00:39:07] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[00:39:08] Luke: That's so surprising. I feel like with DMT, what I would guess would be that your brain is like exploding with gamma. Because it just seems to be like bursting in every direction to the end of the universe.

[00:39:21] Dr. Drew: Yeah, it is. So you have delta, then you have data, and then riding on that data is a lot of gamma. That's very true. But the delta is like giant waves coming up and really shifting things around. And that's when people really get into certain states when they're able to detect things outside of themselves. And with that delta, that high, they become less of themselves in that moment and more connected.

[00:39:52] Dr. Amy: What we're finding to be true in the brain is that the gamma, that is those fastest waves and the very slowest, the delta, and even the waves that are slower than that, both ends of those spectrum are what connects people to the truth of the experience of the oneness.

[00:40:09] Luke: Oh, interesting.

[00:40:11] Dr. Amy: Just to lump it together, everything in between, you can still a little bit be inside of duality or be very much more focused on self, and at the lowest frequencies and at the highest frequencies, we go into that unified consciousness with ease. And it's also how we can often solve some of the biggest problems. Because we can finally slip through.

[00:40:33] So when you're talking about the effect of psychedelics, when he's talking about that delta coming up and how you can feel so massively transformed by a 5-MeO experience, that is a lot of the times because you finally have reset basically. You can reset your belief structure about yourself and be able to slip outside of that, that this is good and that is bad and into that unified field.

[00:41:01] So we don't do any formal psychedelics research. We don't serve any medicine in our program. But of course as essentially cosmonauts for many decades, he had his first spiritual awakening experience at maybe 19 or 20 years old, and I had mine at 18 years old.

[00:41:17] So we've been interested in consciousness from all the different angles for so long, and our advocates for intentional use of psychedelics, absolutely, and find it super fascinating. For so many people, it's the first time that they have any real proof or evidence that something outside of the world that they know could be real or exists. There's a feeling of something beyond the veil.

[00:41:41] And what I think is the next development in that, hopefully for folks, is for them to realize that they have access beyond that veil, without the psychedelics. Let's take dumbo's feather out of our hand and know-- I don't know if everybody knows that, the old Disney story of Dumbo, the little elephant that thought he could fly because of the feather that was in his trunk.

[00:42:07] And so if we take that out of our perception about psychedelics and we actually know that we can manufacture those states of reality without the psychedelics, then that's when it gets really interesting. So to go back to your question about, you were talking about how does neurofeedback work, and there's often a screen, when we drop people into these deep states of consciousness, we actually have blindfolded masks over their eyes, and they have oftentimes psychedelic experiences.

[00:42:36] And it's massive what can happen because it's so guided. Versus if we were to ingest something into our bodies, we don't really know how it's going to respond. We can't control the outcome. We can't even stop it.

[00:42:48] Luke: It's bits a [Inaudible] that wheel, I'll admit.

[00:42:50] Dr. Amy: Total. You can't stop the ride. You hope that you enjoy the ride. You hope that that works well for your body.

[00:42:57] Luke: I'm sure many people listening who have experimented with psychedelics have had an experience where they're like, "Okay, I'm done. Stop. Pull the plug. We're out." I did that one time. I literally sat up and said that. I was like, "I'm done. Too much. I'm out." And then I realized like, no, you're not. You're not getting out. You got a ways to go. I was like, "Fuck." so yeah.

[00:43:16] I think that's one thing about the Holon Intensive. And then I want you guys to really break down what it is that you do because you've created something so cool and powerful. But one of the things that I noticed throughout the entire process was it was very much like a plant medicine retreat in terms of what my subjective experience was every day and the things that I was working on healing and expanding into. But I was stone cold sober the whole time.

[00:43:44] Dr. Amy: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:44] Luke: But when we did those, what do you call it, deep state, when you're doing that particular training, I could have very easily been on ketamine or anything that was very dissociative and just beautiful meditations and visions and little visuals. And I thought, man, this is the best thing anyone could do, especially if they're someone who's lifestyle or belief system or whatever, doesn't allow them, or doesn't interest them to go have psychedelic experiences.

[00:44:14] Because there's a price to pay for putting your mind and body through that. Those intense experiences are definitely not for everyone. And even for those of us that benefit from them, I'm becoming less and less and less over time just because there's a price to pay just in terms of what you put yourself through, just even physically.

[00:44:34] Dr. Amy: Totally. There's also a lot of diminishing returns. So most people have amazing, if they do have amazing, it's amazing for the first number of psychedelic experiences, and maybe that continues over decades for them. But it might not be the same level of insight. And to some extent, it's like the medicine has worked those areas that can be accessed clean for them.

[00:44:55] And it's beautiful, and it's powerful, and it's so accessible. And it also, like you said, has inherent risks and price tags. With the work that we do, it's extremely precise and there isn't the downside to it other than that maybe you're fatigued for a couple of days after. But there's not the ride you can't get off. And there's also just a huge amount of data and safety all baked into the process. So it's far more safe what we're up to than psychedelics can be, at least for some folks.

[00:45:26] Luke: Totally. Yeah. I think so many things about your program parallel. We go do the training, which would be like taking a dose of something. And then you process whatever you're processing. You have some awakenings, realizations, some healing, and then there's what would be in a medicine sermon, an integration circle or sharing circle, where you come and unpack with a group and get some feedback. And that's exactly the way we did it.

[00:45:51] Yeah. I don't know, the whole time I was like, "Wow, this is very familiar, this experience." But I can sleep and I actually feel normal. I can eat food. I'm not throwing up or sweating. No one's having a panic attack, needs to be taken outside because they're freaking out too much or whatever. It's very, what's the word, very contained and very deliberate.

[00:46:11] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[00:46:11] Luke: Everything you guys did, it was just like the timing. Even when we took our supplements, it's like, oh, it's 2 o'clock. You need your whatever. And it's like the meals are right on time. The sleeping schedule's right on time. Everything is very much regimented to support the process. It's not like a, hey, let's just all take a bunch of drugs and see what happens and hope for the best.

[00:46:28] Dr. Amy: Right. Yeah, totally. No, we've figured out best practices over the years for sure to be able to smooth things out. And the neurofeedback therapy, some of those deep states Dr. Drew will drop somebody into, a lot of that is brainwave training, so he'll drop somebody into those deep states, and we may or may not know that they have certain traumas, and they could be the big T traumas that were suppressed that they didn't know about.

[00:46:54] It could be thematically things that just really were hard for them as a kid or at different phases of adulthood. And what happens in that deep state is that as they're remembering and as they're processing it, either it's completely subconscious, which makes it completely comfortable or it makes it there's an anesthetic quality.

[00:47:15] And so they might be being able to sit with something that is so powerfully traumatic in a way that is not traumatic anymore. And they're able to really shift their perception of themselves and just process through all of the emotional data that was in there, get it through, clear it, and it's actually a very somatic feeling.

[00:47:38] So all of this neurofeedback therapy actually touches very deeply into the somatic so they can feel the energy and the feelings of trauma or things like that leave their body in real time. And then they debrief on it. And sometimes we have these people who, even with suppressed emotion, they just move it through.

[00:47:57] They realize that they had massive events happen in their life that they had forgotten or just the impact of something that was so real for them and it just moves through without it having to be painful. So that's a very deliberate function of those deep states.

[00:48:17] Dr. Drew: And very controllable too. These areas tend to take these subconscious or unconscious traumas, and there's a release that happens without the pain circuits firing. And going back to the medications like ketamine, that's what they hope to do.

[00:48:37] You get ketamine and you hope to suppress those pain circuits so you can go down deep into those traumas and pull that out. But with neurofeedback, you can actually get into that and actually trains the whole circuits rather than just, okay, let's hope this does that.

[00:48:55] Dr. Amy: Right?

[00:48:55] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[00:48:55] Luke: I did notice that correlation as I was working through some things that, not dramatically triggering where I would lose my shit over it, but I was going into some crunchy areas in the training. And very much, I guess like ketamine would be true or MDMA, it's like there was a witness-observer perspective that was watching what I was intentionally processing, but there weren't emotional hooks in it.

[00:49:32] I could think of something. Ooh, I'm going to go into this crunchy memory or something I don't really want to look at because it's uncomfortable. And I found that it was totally safe and easy to do, and I wouldn't get caught on anything, even if I went into something scary, which normally, say you were sitting with a therapist in a normal waking state and you started talking about something that you'd repressed or had been suppressed and you start bringing it to the surface and it's just too painful.

[00:49:59] You have that somatic experience of it. Palms get sweaty and you're just like, "I can't hang. This is too intense." But I never felt that no matter where I wanted to guide it. It is really interesting. There's guardrails on your reactivity to some of those things that you're working through.

[00:50:16] Dr. Drew: And with those frequencies too, we're dropping down into the same frequencies that you were when you were a child, slower frequencies. And a lot of us have shut off that information. We misremember or don't remember things that happened early on. And when you get back to those frequencies, it really like, oh, this. And now I can let that go.

[00:50:44] Dr. Amy: Yeah. I think a lot of the times people are stuck inside of their healing journey, or in their development because they don't have all the pieces to the point of we have to be willing to look and see what's there. So if it's some bunk post about methylene blue, move on.

[00:51:00] But if it's something that actually needs to be looked at, even if it makes us uncomfortable, it's often the gateway to freedom. And if we haven't had the capacity, maybe because cognitively or neurologically we haven't been able to hold it in our awareness, it's just been shoved to the side. There's a protein-binding aspect to all of this too.

[00:51:20] So that the protein in the brain is basically held in such a way that the person is not able to have that neurological agility. And so with the neurofeedback training, it's real time brain learning, but it's also real time modification about how the brain is moving in that moment. And the brain is then able to decouple that protein, change the emotion that is associated with the memory.

[00:51:49] Let's describe it as this. It's like you finally can solve a Rubik's cube that you've had on your lap for 30 or 50 years or whatever it is that you've been so frustrated by. But part of the reason why you can solve that Rubik's cube is that you have a room that's big enough to breathe in.

[00:52:04] You're not claustrophobic inside of the space. And there's a window, and there's light, and there's a feeling of maybe some soft, ambient music to make the whole thing work. And so a lot of the times when people are really stuck in their path, they're just not realizing that they don't have all the pieces.

[00:52:20] Maybe they don't have all the sides of that Rubik's cube to look at at the same time, or they don't have enough spaciousness to solve it, or it's not a precise enough-- you don't have maybe that coach in that way. And so both with neurofeedback therapy in its real time learning to guide the brain, here's exactly the unlock where everything inside of that pain structure can come crumbling down.

[00:52:45] There's also the component of a human guide. And so that's the role that I've come in and play, is like, okay, here-- well, we both do, but especially me. And here's how to let that entire architecture of pain and struggle and false identity go, just unplugging it, and here's how you can step into a different reality in a way that's seamless and you actually suddenly feel like you're soaring instead of struggling.

[00:53:12] So part of the reason that we have that beautiful feeling of no struggle, like you were saying, no drama, whatever, is because of the neurological workouts that Dr. Drew knows exactly what he's doing. We know exactly what we're doing with our program, but also because the way that it's held, it's like, look, you don't have to struggle.

[00:53:31] This is about freedom. Freedom feels better than the imprisonment of the mind that you've been in. Freedom feels better than what you've ever known. And here's the framing to step into that and seeing people from a perspective of wholeness rather than their brokenness. They don't need any more reinforcement for the BS they've been telling themselves.

[00:53:51] Luke: Yeah, we're pretty good at that already.

[00:53:52] Dr. Amy: People are masters at it.

[00:53:54] Luke: Story of my life. Isn't that one of the pitfalls of being on the journey of healing and awakening? I've struggled with this, is if you're someone that's really geared toward growth and expansion, it's easy to get caught up in looking for what's still broken. That's right. Instead of like, wow, holy shit. Look at the person I used to be 10 years ago, five years ago, six months ago.

[00:54:18] We don't really track the improvements. It's like we tend to just go, "Oh God, I'm still neurotic in this area of my life." Or I'm stuck here, or this relationship isn't working, or I use nicotine too much, or whatever. Do you think there's a self-improvement trap there where we're stuck in the negativity bias of--

[00:54:37] Dr. Amy: Yeah, completely.

[00:54:39] Luke: The nitpicking of what is still not resolve?

[00:54:43] Dr. Drew: For the data heavy, definitely.

[00:54:45] Dr. Amy: That's what I was just going to say. Especially for the biohacking types that are competing with each other about how their HRV scores are doing or whatever. It's like a whole other level of neurotic when you're competing with your relaxation and homeostasis and all of that.

[00:55:00] Luke: I calm down better than anyone.

[00:55:02] Dr. Amy: Yeah. Basically, it's just taking that same hamster and putting it on different wheels. If it was about a work addiction or a I'm not good enough addiction, the loops of the mind that can just be there, the people don't even know is necessarily there because it's just always been installed. They don't even realize how many cycles they're spending on the noise of the mind. And then just being able to step out of that and into something different is remarkable.

[00:55:35] And I think that everybody wants that freedom, but what they don't realize is that they can basically just put the hamster on different wheels and enslave themselves to different just terrible thought loop realities inside of themselves about improving. And it's all still coming down to those same root causes, which is not good enough, not lovable, nobody wants me. It's tricky. It's like the pseudo spirituality or pseudo-- ultimately, it can still boil down to still just the story of feeling not good enough and not measuring it.

[00:56:14] Luke: And also, I think there's an inherent, and I'm speaking from experience here-- I'll own this-- self-centeredness, not necessarily narcissism because I think that would indicate that you don't care about anyone than yourself, but not in that sense. But just like body consciousness. How do I feel? Am I okay? Did I get enough sleep? What supplements did I take? What therapy should I do next? It's like an orthorexia of spiritual work kind of thing. Right?

[00:56:47] Dr. Amy: Brilliant.

[00:56:48] Dr. Drew: Yeah. They called it navel gazing, right?

[00:56:49] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[00:56:49] Luke: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Where it's just like, wow, I'm really spending a lot of time every day thinking about myself and how I'm doing and how I feel. And so it can be very isolating. Versus like, wow, sometimes I'll feel like that and I just go pet the dog, hug or kiss my wife, and I go, "Oh God, I feel amazing." All I need to do is just actually get out of my self-awareness and expand that awareness into other people or into some nature and realize I'm not the most important thing on the planet and that everything's going to be okay if I just stop trying to fix it all the time.

[00:57:22] Dr. Amy: Well, remembering to slip back into the interconnection because the pain that you're describing there is actually the pain of isolation as much as it is the pain of the illusion of that there's something to fix constantly or whatever. There's this really fun game called continual improvement. But that's a very different game than like, oh no, what's wrong and I have to fix it. And it can end up looking like the same story.

[00:57:45] Luke: Right, right. It's a slight tweak to the framing.

[00:57:49] Dr. Amy: But that changes everything. It changes everything. And the distinction you were saying, pet the dog or hug your wife or whatever, that's coming into connection, and you slip out of that self-identification, the over-identification of self, the worry about self.

[00:58:03] And like you said, it's not a narcissism thing. It's actually, if you see a toddler or a young kid or even a teenager, there's still very much looping on, if something happened, it's because they did it. Or they're the center of the universe. And it's not because there's anything wrong with them.

[00:58:21] But I think what can happen, especially because of our modern society, is that we think that we're the cause of everything or that we should fix everything, or that we're on our own in everything. And it's easy to actually not step out of that paradigm. But it's actually all illusion. It's amazing.

[00:58:40] It's very much like the matrix. Let's just unplug from that reality, which is actually not real, even though it's predominant in our experience, this illusion of separateness. But none of that makes any difference. Coming out of the illusion of separateness doesn't make any difference if it's at the level of the mind. And that's the big thing.

[00:59:02] Luke: Yeah.

[00:59:03] Dr. Amy: Great. So now I have to remember that I'm not alone and that that illusion is a separate thing and whatever. And now we can have a different version of suffering, which is then we're fixated on are we doing a good job of experiencing that oneness connection or not? Because just at the level of the mind, it's actually another way to just torture yourself. It can create more illusion and other fabrication.

[00:59:27] Luke: One thing that I noticed going through the experience with you two is, and this isn't in a negative sense at all, it's a positive because of the end result that we're going for, is expansion, more freedom, etc. But you can't really hide from you two. I notice that. And only in my group, they're only two other cohorts. Are they typically small groups?

[00:59:50] Dr. Amy: We have a max of three.

[00:59:51] Luke: Okay. There you go. So there's two other participants and myself, and it was very interesting watching you two work because, Amy, you would be speaking in the integration sessions, where we would unpack what we were working through.

[01:00:08] You would be able to intuit what was going on with someone and psychologically assess areas of resistance, things they didn't want to face, things that maybe they could lean into that they're not, etc. And sometimes people, I'm sure me at some point too, would buck up against that. But then Drew would be like, "Well, yeah, it's right here in your map."

[01:00:29] Dr. Amy: Right, exactly.

[01:00:30] Luke: He can actually look inside your brain and go, "Oh yeah, no, right here you were totally not present or not willing to go all the way or whatever. So I thought that was really interesting. There's a level of transparency there, but we all know that it's for our greater good-- the intentionality.

[01:00:46] Dr. Amy: Yeah, your health and love.

[01:00:47] Luke: Yeah. It's a very loving space, but it's also one that requires, I think, one to be honest with themselves because it becomes very intimate and everything's really on the table.

[01:00:58] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[01:00:59] Luke: There's no hiding, and you'd be doing yourself a disservice anyway if you were trying to resist.

[01:01:03] Dr. Amy: Right.

[01:01:04] Luke: Which brings me to thing I wanted to ask either of you about. I don't know if you remember, but at one point I started to realize that I have this totally bizarre fear around playing music in front of people, especially singing. That is not going to happen. And so then in one of the trainings, one of my exercises was to go in there and start to look at the root of where that came from.

[01:01:32] And once I found the root to apply some forgiveness practices, if it involved another person, which mine happened to, in that particular training session, I was in there and in that very unconscious or hyperconscious state, that theta dreamlike state, I was able to trace back, going back, freaking, I don't know, 30 years to when someone I was playing music with was like, "You suck at singing. Don't ever do that again."

[01:02:02] And it's so crazy. It happened once or twice probably that I remember. And that was enough for me to be like, "I'm never doing that again." And so in that session I went in there. I was finding the root of it and then forgiving that person, forgiving myself for taking on that belief and so on. What was hap happening, Drew, with the brain training that allowed me to do that in a way that I could never do just sitting here right now? I can't get there on my own. Or I've never been able to.

[01:02:32] Dr. Drew: Think of it like this: we're going into a deeper state, and you were at a younger age then. And those correlating frequencies were driven during that time. They're constant during that time. So we're tuning in the radio to that age group in frequency.

[01:02:51] And then with the memory, it's coupled. So when we have a memory, the hippocampus part of our memory system becomes malleable in these proteins. And then you have the emotion and then you have the reaction, and those mold during that time. So we're prediction machines so we don't want to have that happen again.

[01:03:14] So we learn those things so we don't have that event happen again that causes pain or death ultimately. And when you're back in that state and then you go in and go, "Oh, here's the memory again," the proteins become malleable again. And then you can decouple it from the emotion and then move forward, which is so huge.

[01:03:38] So you can still have the memory, but the emotional component that brings up and brings about the category of dysfunction that occurs with it or the thoughts that are just not real, but we believe them, it really decouples that.

[01:03:55] Luke: I guess that explains when people get emotionally triggered. It's like, say something happens to you when you're a kid and you're walking around in theta from one to seven years old, and you get smacked or abused or hurt in whatever way, and then it stops happening in reality.

[01:04:10] But then you're 45 years old and there's a similar, familiar situation that your brain thinks is that thing again, even though you, in your conscious mind, know that it's not, but you still can't stop the emotional reaction or the responses or the patterns that get created out of that. Is that how that works? It just gets stuck in your subconscious mind?

[01:04:33] Dr. Drew: It does, and because we're looking for patterns and things that are predictable to apply forward.

[01:04:42] Luke: Got it.

[01:04:43] Dr. Amy: Yeah. But going back to the puzzle pieces or that Rubik's cube solution, if it's in the subconscious, then the person might just loop on that. You might not have been able to find the root of the music block, the singing block, without your brain being exercised or opened up in exactly that right way in that moment.

[01:05:02] And with your intention. So intent is everything as well. So the role that you played in wanting that to heal and being willing to look at it and navigating in the ways that you knew to navigate made a huge difference in your ability to find that out.

[01:05:18] Dr. Drew: And what I've noticed over the past few years, I've been working on more of the unconscious processes. So a lot of things will happen that we don't quite register consciously, but on an unconscious level we will register it and it'll start programming us. So I've really gotten into grief recently because of that, and all these losses in life, whether it's love, whether it's a job that didn't happen or event that didn't happen, we have all these losses in life that build up over time and they stack on each other. So we're always looking so that we don't lose in these things. And it directs us and really guides us.

[01:06:08] Luke: I am glad you brought up grief because I was thinking about something before you two arrived today. And as I said, and as you know, my dad died a few weeks ago, and it's the first parent I've lost, so I don't have anything to compare the experience to. But I do find it interesting that my brain and the whole being went under this transformation with you guys.

[01:06:30] And then a few weeks later, I fly to Florida, and I'm very present for the experience of my dad dying. And again, I don't know how I'm supposed to feel, and it has been no party. It's not like, oh, this is easy. But I always imagined that kind of loss to be something that would just completely annihilate you to the point where you couldn't function.

[01:06:54] And it's been really interesting to walk through the process of grief and learning it in real time and putting some intentionality behind like, okay, I need to create space for whatever needs to move. But it hasn't been as bad as I imagined it. And I think some of it, it must have to do with the work that we did.

[01:07:17] Because I think I had a really secure and integrous runway when I came home and felt just in a completely centered place. So when that experience just came out of the blue, I feel pretty freaking good about the way that I walked through it and showed up for it with a lot of presence and bravery, even despite the obvious pain involved.

[01:07:41] And even in the time sense, it's like, I know I'm not avoiding those feelings, but there also isn't this combat boot that is going-- it seems like there should be a foot that's going to drop that's like, boom, oh, it's going to hit me one day. And it doesn't. It just comes in waves and the waves come and I just do my best to not avoid them.

[01:08:03] But it's been a really interesting process to experience something that I feel like for many, and probably for me at some point would've been a massive upheaval and just completely derailed my whole life. And here I am sitting here doing a podcast and I don't feel like I'm suppressing anything or trying to avoid the experience.

[01:08:21] It's just like, I don't know, there's an equanimity and acceptance and balance around the whole thing. Does the work you do explain why one would be able to emotionally regulate and have the resilience to move through something like that?

[01:08:38] Dr. Amy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Neurologically, energetically, spiritually, I'm so grateful that your timing was what it was and that it came right when you did. Amazing, amazing. Yeah. So on an energetic level that which we resist creates pain. And so pain is actually due to resistance.

[01:08:58] And for you, you're not in this place of having to resist against the passing of your father or resist against the processing of emotion or energy that needs to leave your body. And you're not opposing that on a cognitive level or on the level of the mind, but you're also not opposing it neurologically.

[01:09:18] Basically, all of those gears can move correctly. And also, energetically throughout your whole body's energy system because, again, we are at least electrical beings. You've had this attunement of your energy body that's allowing for spaciousness. So a lot of the times I'll teach that in terms of that pipe, that right now, if we can imagine you sitting inside of a pipe of energy, your pipe is nice and broad.

[01:09:41] So when something as massive as your father's passing moves through, if that's represented by a clog in the pipe, that pipe actually can clear itself because it's big enough to be able to accommodate that size of a pain, of a loss.

[01:09:59] But before or at other points in your life, if that pipe's diameter had been smaller, if your overall resilience and capacity, but also your energy structure had been different, you would've absolutely been in agony, and it would've upended you. So that's from the perspective of the energetics aspect.

[01:10:20] But then also neurologically, Dr. Drew tuned up your cerebellum, for instance, and the cerebellum is a structure in the back of the brain. We already talked about it in terms of addiction centers. But it's also a fundamental safety, and it's also everything to do with our root chakra, everything to do with our sense of safety on a biological level. Also, our connection to community, our safety around money.

[01:10:42] And so by tuning that up, you're just stronger. Literally, you have better electrical signal in an area of your brain that has you feel safe regardless of external circumstance. So there are many more layers and understandings to it, but just as a for instance, the cerebellum is what's informing the amygdala. So a lot of people will talk about--

[01:11:05] Luke: Ooh, the amygdala, the damn--

[01:11:06] Dr. Amy: The amygdala. I know. And actually, there's two amygdala, so it's plural.

[01:11:11] Luke: Oh, Jesus.

[01:11:12] Dr. Amy: It's plural, singular.

[01:11:14] Luke: One's enough.

[01:11:15] Dr. Amy: I know.

[01:11:15] Luke: God, come on, man.

[01:11:18] Dr. Drew: They both operate differently. One of them is more for threat detection, negative associations. And it talks to the insulin, like, "Oh, this is a threat. We need to react quickly." The other one is more emotional integration. And it depends on which wolf you're feeding.

[01:11:38] So if you're angry all the time and you're going into these classic just emotions of reactivity, then you're going to feed the one that-- you get angry really. I do this really well. And then as you start on the other one, if you do more loving, kindness, compassion type of work and the deep work that we went through, that starts building that. And all of a sudden, you're not in reactivity. You're in integration at that point.

[01:12:07] Dr. Amy: And even having a greater capacity for joy. So those two amygdala, one of them is more like he was saying, bias towards fear or anger. And the other one has a mix of things, including integration, but it's also just the propensity to be able to hold joy. So while people might point some negativity towards their amygdala, they just like, "Let's broaden out the picture."

[01:12:26] Luke: I'm glad you said that because I just wanted to get mine removed.

[01:12:29] Dr. Amy: Exactly, exactly.

[01:12:31] Luke: I've had enough fight or flight for one lifetime. Leave me alone. We're safe. Jesus.

[01:12:35] Dr. Amy: Yeah, yeah.

[01:12:36] Dr. Drew: It's like you don't want take out the brakes in the car. You want them to operate appropriately.

[01:12:41] Luke: I understand why we're designed the way we are, but man, it's hard to navigate in the modern world sometimes. Going back to what you were saying about having a pipe that spacious enough for things to move through, it led me to think of the before and after brain mapping, the one we did before the recording.

[01:12:58] And looking at the levels of coherence where you have a proper healthy balance of the different brainwaves, where they should be happening and the amplitude and so on. Would the brain coherence be another way to describe that capacity?

[01:13:14] Dr. Amy: Yes, absolutely. I think there's a lot to it. We could also look at what the amygdala's doing and all of that. There's more to it. Coherence is really ultimately that communication. And so the communication that we have within ourselves and the communication that we have with the all that is with everything that's around us, and that feeling of interconnectedness is the biggest determinating factor of that pipe size.

[01:13:43] So somebody believes that they're separate or defective or whatever. They'll absolutely in that moment just pull in the pipe diameter. So when I realized that I was clairvoyant and that I wasn't just having an overactive imagination and that I was seeing things, I've been watching all of this on an energy level for a couple of decades or more now with ease and just watching and noticing for people who are in that pain and reactivity, that their pipe diameter gets brought in in that moment.

[01:14:12] And so when you were saying nowhere to run, nowhere to hide between the two of us. I can watch, not just on a psychological level, but I'm watching on an energetic level. And so in a way, you could call it a really sophisticated plumber. I'm just watching, how's your pipe doing? What just created that contracture?

[01:14:29] How do we get you through that contracture so that you can open up that pipe diameter and so that you can continue to live inside of that expanded state of energy body awareness and energetic aliveness? And so basically, it's problem solving and it's very, very real.

[01:14:49] A lot of the times people think of energetics or energy anatomy as being very abstract or theoretical, and I'm like, "No, these are grains of sand or units of fog." It works differently, obviously, than in the 3D material world, but this is all very real. The meridians are real. And acupuncture, the energy that's coming off of the body is also real. We are electric beings, like you said. We illuminate light. It's like, okay, so what happens with photons? They go out in every direction. Oh, wait a minute.

[01:15:26] Luke: So true. And anyone can recall an experience where you walk into a room and you go, "Man, the vibe is off in here. What is that where you walk into a room and you go, "Ah, it feels great in here. I feel amazing." It's like, it's not you. It's the environment that you're responding to. If you're at all tapped into energetics, you don't have to be clairvoyant or terribly gifted to know like, hmm, this is not a good feeling.

[01:15:52] Sometimes I'll walk in a room and it doesn't feel good or bad. It's just there's a lot of tension and awkwardness. And then I'll start to feel that and go, "God, I didn't feel that five minutes ago when I was getting out of the car. I felt fine." And then I come in and it's a confluence of different people's energies and where everyone is at that particular time. And it's quite palpable if you pay attention.

[01:16:13] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[01:16:13] Luke: Or you just get a sense of a person. We all meet people sometimes. You're just like, ""Hmm, they're off. They just feel negative."

[01:16:22] Dr. Amy: Yeah. People will describe it as there's something dark around them or with them, and it's actually them having some peak at the energy realm. Sometimes we can see it represented in the skin, but sometimes it's just a sense of darkness or a sense of illumination, and that's all.

[01:16:42] That's just that energy data coming through. And the more that we train our eye to it and decide to feel into it and experience that, then we can basically utilize a whole bunch more information that we just didn't have before.

[01:16:54] Luke: It's like, for me, I could test this. I would get a picture of Bill Gates and a picture of the Maharishi.

[01:17:00] Dr. Amy: Oh yeah.

[01:17:02] Luke: I can't say a blind test, but even if I didn't know anything about them, I think your average person could tell someone who's objectively evil and someone who's objectively good just by feeling into it even briefly. That's, I think, a gift that we all have. It's just we're not taught to capitalize on it or how to identify it, or maybe people like you, I know from my wife Alyson, throughout life.

[01:17:28] These gifts start to come online, and because our culture isn't set up to support them and celebrate them, they can be shunned or shut down or diminished, and then you think, oh, wow, maybe it wasn't real, or maybe I'm different in the bad way of being different because I have these gifts.

[01:17:43] Dr. Amy: Yeah. There's a massive gaslighting that goes on accidentally, I would say, about shutting all of it down. When I was little, it was the training of, be nice to everybody. Always be polite. And when I was raising my son, I'd whisper to him, he's a toddler, "Do you see that person's energy over there?"

[01:18:04] And he would just look and he wouldn't respond. Do you think that that person is a good person and somebody you should trust or not a good person and somebody maybe not good to trust? And I would just let him tune in on that, and then I'd ask him, "Do you think it matters that they're smiling or not smiling, or can you trust what you know inside of their energy? How do you feel?"

[01:18:25] Because you don't have to be nice to everyone. You actually can stay away from the people that you don't feel good around. And that's such a different message. Not that I've been the perfect mother, but it's such a different message than what--

[01:18:37] Luke: That's a good start right there.

[01:18:38] Dr. Amy: It's a pretty good start. It's solid because if we can help our kids or the people around us to navigate from that place, they'll make such different decisions and end up in radically different places over time.

[01:18:52] Luke: Do you think that type of intuition can rub off on people? Because I feel like living with someone who's incredibly intuitive like that, that I've tapped into that much more so than I ever did on my own.

[01:19:05] Dr. Drew: Yeah, yeah. I think going back to the energetics is as you set up your own energetic pendulum, it starts swinging. And as it gets big enough, it's going to affect people around you.

[01:19:19] No matter where the energy's at, if you're more up in gamma and just really positive, people are just really pulled to that. They just, "Oh, okay." And the first time I ever observed this, I was probably a teenager in Germany at the time, and in a giant cuckoo clock thing down in Bavaria. And as a kid, "Oh, there's a giant pendulum here, and we're going to swing it."

[01:19:44] And all of a sudden, as I started swinging that, all the other pendulums started swinging in tomb with that big pendulum. So that really set in me like, okay, the physics are real within this energetic. Just because we can't see anything or see everything is not meaning that it's not affecting us.

[01:20:05] Luke: Yeah. Resonance is a real thing.

[01:20:07] Dr. Drew: Yeah. And I know when I'm around Dr. Amy here too, that that expansive type of sensing, the capacity goes up.

[01:20:19] Luke: Absolutely.

[01:20:20] Dr. Amy: The levels of coherence-- so the way that your brain got cleaned up, and we saw it in the pre and post EEG, that level of coherence, you have more magnetism type effect on people. They'll be able to hear and understand not just you, but the truth of things. They'll be able to see through illusion better in your presence. They'll be able to track things that they couldn't track otherwise. So that's an example of that cleanup. And my brain is extremely coherent. It's a little hard under studio lights, but I'm doing it.

[01:20:54] Luke: I'm struggling. I can't wait till we can make these warmer.

[01:20:58] Dr. Amy: Yeah, it's all good. No, it's all good.

[01:21:00] Luke: I'm the same. I usually wear my amber glasses in here because I'm just like, "Ah." But I know for some reason today I wanted to look more normal with you two. I don't know why, you guys are totally not normal.

[01:21:09] Dr. Amy: We're totally not normal, and we're totally--

[01:21:11] Luke: Yeah. Sometimes I see the videos. I'm wearing those glasses, like, oh my God, I would never watch this guy's podcast. What a douche. I think we've talked a lot about, obviously what you guys do, but I think I'm taking for granted since I went through the Holon intensive with you. We were just chatting as everyone knows, but if I had never been there, explain to me the process from beginning to end and what the purpose of your program is and how it came to be.

[01:21:43] Dr. Amy: Mm-hmm. So the onsite is the part that most people are really wanting to hear about, so I'll start with that and then I'll talk about the before and the after of that. So the onsite happens typically between a Thursday and a Monday. We bring three people through, and it's myself and Dr. Drew and then our support team in a home that we--

[01:22:02] Luke: And an amazing chef.

[01:22:03] Dr. Amy: And an amazing--

[01:22:04] Luke: I've never eaten so much my entire life. By the way, not to interrupt, but Alyson said she was going to snitch on me because you guys said, "Luke, you're retarded. You need to be eating more." Well, you didn't say I was retarded. I'm claiming that word. But you said, "Dude--" Because we were eating so much and the food was so good.

[01:22:20] You're like, "Yeah, dude. This is how normal people eat. It's called three meals a day." That was totally foreign to me and I felt so freaking grounded. Of course, it's the training and all the work we're doing, but just physiologically, I was like, "Huh. Wow, I feel very different." And you guys instructed me when I got home, yeah, you're supposed to eat three meals a day.

[01:22:37] And I did pretty good for a little while, and Alyson's totally willing to make sure those meals happen for me. And she asked me probably 10 times a day, "Are you hungry? Are you hungry?" And I never am until it's eight o'clock, which is too late. I shouldn't even be eating that anyway. And she said, when you guys get here, she's like, "I'm going to tell them you haven't been eating." So I did it for you, honey, if you're listening. I snitched myself out.

[01:22:57] Dr. Amy: You tattled on yourself.

[01:22:58] Luke: Anyway, I digress. So back to your staff, you have the support staff. It's incredible.

[01:23:03] Dr. Amy: Yeah. So we basically have this beautiful home in the cedar forest of Northern California. It's really quiet, and it's a little bubble of healing. And so people come and they stay in that from the Thursday to the Monday. And during that time, I'd say we do between over 40 hours of program.

[01:23:22] So as many hours as we can of neurofeedback therapy. Or we also have other things like transcranial therapy, other really elite biohacking, like the CVAC, the cyclic variable altitude chamber, the highest and most powerful PEMF. We've got some really fun toys, and I know you can attest to that. But we're using this--

[01:23:42] Luke: I can attest that there was no downtime.

[01:23:44] Dr. Amy: There was no downtime.

[01:23:44] Luke: I was like, "Cool, maybe I'll go check my email. No, next session." It was like, okay. It's called an intensive for a reason.

[01:23:50] Dr. Amy: Exactly. It's not a retreat. We're not hanging out in hammocks. We're not having naps.

[01:23:54] Luke: No, none of that.

[01:23:56] Dr. Amy: We do have recovery, but it's very intentional and then we put people right back in. We do have integration, of course. We have the preparation. We actually have the activation sessions too, the one-on-one work that I do that really actually can shift people neurologically by a couple of standard deviations just with my energetic transmission.

[01:24:15] So that's all peppered in as well. It's hard for us to know when we look at the post data, how exactly we got there, except for we know that we are building everything in that right direction every step of the way with the nutrition, with the environment, with that feeling of safety, with the integration, with the intention.

[01:24:35] Again, your desire to get to the root of things, your willingness to be with and look at things is a huge part of the ingredient set. But yeah. And then it's just a lot of numbers of really highly specific neurofeedback therapy, and it's also applied by-- Dr. Drew has a way of looking between the lines. So he can see where neurological gifts are actually hidden.

[01:25:00] A lot of the time somebody just has a little too much stress on the top, but they have a huge capacity. So we can name those and hopefully uncover them during that five days. And we get a massive change. It's often around the 40% mark, but I would say we're probably pushing higher than that just because of some of the new technologies and methodologies that we are uncovering even in the last few months. It's really amazing.

[01:25:28] So then the program actually begins now. We've actually extended it. So since you've been in, we've extended the program where it begins in earnest about a month before the onsite, with preparation, including utilizing some photobiomodulation and different protocol and sessions that happen online from home so that people can get really neurologically primed, psychologically primed, and let's say more spiritually attuned to what it is that can happen. And then they come on, do the onsite, and then we have about a month of integration after. And so we're just launching that in April.

[01:26:09] Luke: Epic. Oh, I think I saw something about that in email, actually. And I was like, "Dammit, I didn't get the long thing."

[01:26:15] Dr. Amy: Come back. Come back.

[01:26:16] Luke: Yeah, it was fun. Well, one thing that struck me, which was very positive, is when I landed in Sacramento and had the fancy black car come pick me up. I shared the ride with one of the other participants. And she was just raving about the program. And I think this was like her second or third time back or something. I thought, that's pretty good because it's not cheap.

[01:26:37] I was like, "If someone did this and they're coming back and then--" And she was, "Oh, this changed my life more than any psychedelics. And she was just raving. And I was like, "Okay, cool." I made the right decision. So by the time I got there, I was like, "Okay, I'm 100% in." She was a great advocate, having had the experience and had the wherewithal to come back and do it again.

[01:26:57] Dr. Amy: Yeah. You actually came through with two people that were repeating. And both of them had massive changes. The one that you wrote in with, we can talk about, Megan Klein.

[01:27:07] Luke: Oh, we can? Okay. She's on the podcast tomorrow.

[01:27:09] Dr. Amy: Exactly. She's coming in tomorrow.

[01:27:11] Luke: I was being low key with her anonymity. I wasn't sure of it.

[01:27:14] Dr. Amy: Absolutely. We have to. We're doctors. This isn't stuff we can just chitchat about on random. But yeah, it's been a massive change for her. Been a huge life change for her, and she did come back. We work with less than 30 people a year in this way. We have other programs and other offerings, but the people that we invite through are really invested.

[01:27:37] Not all of them could afford to come back a second time. That's not part of the criteria of deciding who to have through the first time. But we're really working with people who are amazing humans who are up to great things in the world, and we vet very carefully for where we know we can get those kind of results. Because it's an investment on our side.

[01:27:58] We pour so much love in. We pour so much time and love into each person as they come through. This isn't just like, "Oh, here you go." And set you up on a machine and walk away. We're very, very engaged the whole way through. It's a deep spiritual practice, or I would say the way that we live our lives, but also the way that we do this particular work, it's an offering and an act of love.

[01:28:26] So it's not transactional and it's not happenstance. And I think that that shows in our results, absolutely. But it also shows in people's ability to even conceive of what just happened. Because I think that's a lot of it, is people go through such a deep change that it's actually quite a lot just to even integrate it and then to know to want to come back. It's a whole other thing.

[01:28:53] Luke: Yeah. When I got back, Alyson mentioned a couple of times, wow, you seem really different. I don't know exactly what it is, but I was like, "I don't know either, but I'm glad you see it." But one thing I noticed, and I have to admit, I've progressed a little bit in this department, but when I came back, first time in, I don't know, a long time, that I didn't feel the need to have noise on all the time, which is part of this tinnitus thing I've been dealing with.

[01:29:19] It just like silence is very loud. So I always have a podcast on or some music. I just can't stand to be in quiet, especially right when I wake up. I wake up, roll out of bed, turn on an audio book or something, and that's what she noticed in the first week or so.

[01:29:34] She's like, wow, it's really weird you're not doing that thing that you used to do, which is like always having something on which would drive her nuts, understandably. As I said, I've slipped back, I wouldn't say all the way back to default, but there was definitely a major change in that regard.

[01:29:50] And also, I track my sleep because, as we were saying, the self-obsession and all that. I sleep like a freaking beast now. Does that have anything to do with what you guys did? I don't remember us even talking about that. And I was like, what's changed?

[01:30:07] The only thing I did different-- I have my same gadgets and supplements. It's all the same shit that I've been doing for years, trying to improve my sleep. Last night I slept eight and a half hours solid, two and a half hours of deep sleep, hour and a half of REM sleep, crushing the sleep, which might sound boring to younger people, but when you're 54, that shit matters. If I don't sleep well, the world suffers from it, including myself. So did you guys tune up my sleepers?

[01:30:35] Dr. Drew: Yeah. So we looked today in your after map, the remap. And you saw about a 60% difference in the communication in those frequencies that control sleep.

[01:30:46] Luke: Whoa. 60?

[01:30:48] Dr. Drew: 60%.

[01:30:50] Luke: There you go.

[01:30:50] Dr. Drew: Remember all the blue lines in that one and most of them are gone now.

[01:30:54] Luke: Yeah.

[01:30:55] Dr. Drew: So that's communication. And when you were able to regulate that, that just changes your whole system. The first thing we want to do in neurofeedback typically is fix the sleep, because that affects everything else. And if you don't sleep well, you're not going to recover well, and you don't have the capacity to change as quickly. And it's a hindrance. And you don't process as well either.

[01:31:20] Dr. Amy: Yeah. You can stay in that fight or flight or just not be able to function. The way that you say it a lot of the times is without proper sleep, all the cracks show. So all the neurological cracks start to show. And if somebody lives in a continual state of being sleep deprived, their cracks are showing all of the time. But they don't know that because that's all they've ever known of themselves.

[01:31:42] And maybe they can't sleep more than they do or better than they do because of some of the underlying neurological issues. Maybe it's just choice, but it's very unsexy. The stuff that matters the most is sleep and food and basic things. And I say that as being a biohacker since before the term became coined. But it's just fricking true.

[01:32:04] If the first thing that we look at to tune when somebody comes is the sleep. Then if there's just a general look at health, it's going to be digestive system and the ability to just process food and eliminate waste appropriately. Again, it's not particularly sexy, but it doesn't matter how many supplements-- I'm sorry, you cannot get from a green powder what it is that you should be eating.

[01:32:30] Luke: Dammit.

[01:32:30] Dr. Amy: I know.

[01:32:33] Luke: I'm like the Soylent Green guy. I just want a bag of food IV. On that note, why do you recommend that people eat food like a normal human, the quantity of food throughout the day?

[01:32:50] Dr. Amy: Well, when they're coming through our training program is not the time to do intermittent fasting, for sure. There should be no deprivation because we're undergoing specific neurological and biochemical reactions that we have to have the right ingredients for in the right moment, and it's not the right time for that.

[01:33:07] But in general, we want people to eat real food, and if they do want to do intermittent fasting or if something like that is right for them, that's great. But we cannot get from supplements or even from frozen food or processed food what we get from what we're supposed to be eating.

[01:33:23] We're mammals. We're still mammals. We're mammals that think way too much about themselves and got really neurotic along the way, generally speaking. But we're supposed to still eat the same things because our bodies haven't evolved quickly enough to be able to say, "Oh yeah, Cheetos are good for me."

[01:33:39] But even the overprocessed foods that we might eat that have better for you snacks or just the empty calories that people can fill up on, ultimately it's not the same. And ultimately, it's going to be true on a nutritional level, on a vitamins and minerals and fiber and all of those things. But also because we are supposed to be sustained by an in connection to the earth.

[01:34:07] And if we're not eating things that come from the earth that look like they came from the earth still, we're going to be missing a very inherent invisible yet intrinsic connection to the earth.

[01:34:21] Luke: Solid point. I do want to add you got me off frozen meals for a couple of years. Neither of us terribly like to cook a lot, thank God. Alyson's willing to do it at least because I'm definitely not. I would just have ground beef for dinner every night with some ghee and eat that seven days a week. But we've been ordering what I thought was organic, grass-fed, no seed oils, really good frozen meals.

[01:34:43] And I think it was you, Amy, that were like, "Dude, that food is dead. You have to eat fresh food." So we got off that and now we've been getting-- a lot of it's pre-made, but it's not frozen. It's fresh.

[01:34:54] Dr. Amy: That's awesome. Yeah. I'm not anti all frozen food all the time, but if it's what somebody sustain themselves off of, they're definitely missing--

[01:35:01] Luke: That's much what I was living--

[01:35:01] Dr. Amy: Yeah, definitely stuff's missing.

[01:35:05] Dr. Drew: Yeah. A lot of the micronutrients we inherently need especially trace minerals, are such a big thing. And we noticed this early on, or I noticed this early on working with the kids on the spectrum, Asperger's and autism. Most of them are nutrient deprived and they start eating foods that are the same color, white or yellow or orange, and that's all they eat.

[01:35:32] And they're not getting the nutrients, so they're not able to actually neurologically increase their capacity at that point. And as soon as we got them on certain liquid micronutrients, the minerals, their capacity to change and grow was drastic. And they could keep up. And when you're going through the intensive, 20% of your brain is using up 20% of your energy.

[01:36:04] Your whole brain is using about 20% of your energy and it requires a lot. So when you feel hungry after that, you're going to feel hungry because it needs that energy to go forward. And if it has the right nutrients, it can basically adhere to its capacity instead of fall behind.

[01:36:24] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[01:36:24] Luke: Got it. So I guess it's like when you go through the whole on intensive, you're burning a lot of energy because you're using your brain in new and novel ways that's quite demanding. So it's like if you went and did a physical workout camp for a week, you would be eating three meals a day too, right? Because it demands that caloric energy to keep you going. Is that part of it?

[01:36:48] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[01:36:48] Dr. Amy: Mm-hmm.

[01:36:49] Luke: Okay.

[01:36:49] Dr. Amy: And you also get those signals. So for you, while you were with us, you were getting hunger signals. Also, we had a chef just turn--

[01:36:55] Luke: I couldn't believe I was actually hungry. I was eating the three meals. A, the chef was really good. That's part of it. So that's a cheat code right there. But I was like, "I can't believe how much freaking food I eating." It's bizarre.

[01:37:08] Dr. Amy: Mm-hmm. But some of it is also just that the hunger cues can be suppressed. So sometimes people think that they're not hungry and their body is actually requiring nutrition and let's just call it the sensor that senses if you're low on fuel is broken.

[01:37:23] Luke: Oh, interesting.

[01:37:24] Dr. Amy: So in Chinese medicine, we know to strengthen a certain capacity inside of the body so that the sensor works, and now then the person can eat as they should. So there's a lot that goes into hunger and satiety.

[01:37:39] Luke: Interesting. Drew, tell me about some of the other adjunct therapies. Amy mentioned the CVAC and the PEMF and the transcranial-- what was it called? Transcranial stimulation?

[01:37:51] Dr. Drew: Yes, transcranial stimulation.

[01:37:52] Luke: So tell me how those support the work you're doing.

[01:37:55] Dr. Drew: And what we call overall is neural biomodulation. So with the maps that we do, I look at it in a way that electrically, we can modify things. So we could do that through light. We could do that through sound. We do that electrically.

[01:38:15] I use a lot more electrical now, transcranial AC/DC, blue noise, pink noise. It depends on what we're using at the time for you specifically. And we can direct those frequencies to the brain. And then we can also use pulse electromagnetic frequencies or the pulse electromagnetic field at very specific frequencies to also layer on top of that.

[01:38:40] So what we're doing is influencing the neurons to fire a certain way or connect a certain way. And it just really enhances what we've been training on. And then with something like the CVAC or the altitude chamber, it's much more for circulation and blood flow. Blood flow is so key to everything that we do.

[01:39:04] And if it's not flowing correctly, you're not going to get the gains, and you're not going to actually have the recovery either. And we use a lot for recovery. And then with another cap that we have the sun, say, we'll use foot biomodulation with that too. So it has basically lasers that are flashing at certain rates that propel the brain to actually follow along and do those. And then we have a neuro visor too that we--

[01:39:38] Luke: I was so happy you guys have the neuro visor. because I travel with that thing.

[01:39:41] Dr. Amy: Oh, we love neuro visor.

[01:39:43] Luke: Yeah, I have mine with me. You don't need it. We've got that covered. Those are some of the coolest sessions too. Speaking of psychedelic, when you're doing the brain training with the visual aspect, it's freaking awesome.

[01:39:54] Dr. Amy: Yeah. We prime the brain with the neuro visor, but we've just run a little bit of pilot studies on our own, but maybe a couple of standard deviations of change just from the neuro visor. But the neuro visor is brain entrainment. It's not training. It's not learning. So it puts the brain into a state, but the brain doesn't know how it got there.

[01:40:12] But nonetheless, we're like, "Oh, great." So we can take somebody from what they think is them and their baseline and their brain's just doing what it's routine mechanisms are doing, and then shift that state dramatically with neuro visor.

[01:40:26] And then the person, they're in this moment, let's say, of neuroplasticity to then be able to give instruction very specifically with the neurofeedback therapy on exactly and precisely how that brain should most optimally function. And then another one, what he was describing, the transcranial with that very, very gentle current of electricity, it sounds wild, and at first I was--

[01:40:50] Dr. Drew: It is microcurrent.

[01:40:51] Dr. Amy: It is a microcurrent.

[01:40:54] Luke: It doesn't hurt. I can verify that.

[01:40:55] Dr. Amy: Exactly. It doesn't hurt, and it's a tickle. It's not a big deal. I was very skeptical of that kind of technology in the beginning because I am so extraordinarily sensitive on all the levels. I have come to trust over the years in it and have seen so many miracles with it.

[01:41:16] And the ability to do a pattern interrupt with it is incredible, even more powerful than the neuro visor for sure and much more specific. And then also the difference in the blood flow to the brain. So just to build on what Dr. Drew is saying, we can move something on an electrical level, but we have to have that blood flow to support it.

[01:41:41] So really being able to guide the brain toward having better blood flow is an incredible tool, and it's a very safe tool. Neurofeedback therapy and transcranial have been around for-- Neurofeedback therapy since the 1960s. How long has transcranial been?

[01:41:59] Dr. Drew: They've done that since the late 1800s.

[01:42:03] Dr. Amy: There you go. Probably not with a lot of precision. I would imagine it's become less crude, but yeah. So just on that note, because safety is something that's really important to both of us, and although we are absolutely pioneering out into spaces to create results for people that are extraordinary, really miraculous in many cases, we are not willing to do that at the risk of someone's wellbeing.

[01:42:30] So we're using things that are coming out of, let's say, Stanford research protocols for how we work with the brain using neurofeedback therapy, but we're applying it, instead of to pathology, like they would from Stanford, towards wisdom, towards consciousness, towards intuitive capacities or leadership skills.

[01:42:50] So yeah, we can definitely work with emotional regulation or sleep problems and things like that. That's easy in a way. And what makes a lot of this work so extraordinarily different is, again, Dr. Drew's ability to look between the lines and our both inherent ability to invite out the master within to be able to really bring somebody out of the frame of thinking of themselves in terms of pathology and to be able to really change their lives in a massive way so that they can step into their own personal mastery as leaders, as parents, as just community members, however they show up in the world in such a different way. And this actually then leads me to-- and if you were to come back, not that I'm trying to convince you, but if you were to come back--

[01:43:41] Luke: Oh, I definitely plan on it.

[01:43:42] Dr. Amy: Okay, good.

[01:43:43] Luke: Especially after seeing the, as I said, the last couple months of life have just been very unpredictable. So it's been difficult to track specifically what happened. As I said, I think, wow, I've navigated some pretty gnarly shit very well. But when I saw the before and after scans, I was like, "Man, imagine what's possible."

[01:44:02] Dr. Amy: And that's the thing is that--

[01:44:04] Luke: Dude, that's like a few days.

[01:44:06] Dr. Drew: Yeah. That's why we get excited too. We just see it raise potential and just want to push that to capacity.

[01:44:12] Dr. Amy: Right? Yeah. If we can place our bets as two people who are doing as much as they can to leverage change for the greater good on behalf of all humanity and our beautiful Mother Earth, we want to find amazing people, and then we want to help them. And to be able to see things that they can't see for themselves and then help them to get there with ease.

[01:44:33] So you had fun while you were with us, which is an important ingredient, and it was actually really pleasant and a great time. And then you can see your results, the results of which some are going to be difficult to track, but they're the absence of pain at the level that you would've expected in your father's passing. That's a massive result, even though it's the absence of something.

[01:44:55] Luke: You know what? It's the absence of reactivity. I think that's what it is. It's like, sure, emotions come, moods change, but I'm much less reactive to external stimuli, which is evidenced actually now that I think about it in the trip that Alyson and I just took to Peru, which is beautiful, and just completely miraculous in so many ways.

[01:45:18] But we were rough in it. I'm of an age now. When I travel, I prefer a certain degree of comfort, and that was not present, and there were a lot of unpredictable circumstances, a very fluid dynamic pilgrimage really going to these different sacred sites and things like that. And as I told you guys earlier, as an example, the first bus ride from Lima up until the Andes was 15 hours.

[01:45:47] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[01:45:48] Luke: And I don't do 15-hour bus rides if I have a choice. And I didn't even know that ahead of time because I didn't ask any questions. And then just the sleeping quarters and different things were definitely outside of my comfort zone, and things came up. Oh no, we're going over here now. It's another bus ride. Or we're hiking up this freaking mountain. And then I'm like, "Not prepared for a 12,000-foot hike and so on."

[01:46:08] And despite the unpredictable nature of things, I don't remember one moment where I totally lost my shit or freaked out about it or had a temper tantrum. It was just like, oh, this is happening now? Interesting. And the old pattern of like, oh, I don't like this was there. Like, oh, this isn't how I would do it. Or this is going to suck. But then it didn't actually suck. I was very adaptable, which was interesting.

[01:46:32] Dr. Drew: Again, we changed those predictive patterns in the brain, so you're in the present, can move through those elegantly basically.

[01:46:39] Luke: Yeah, it was wild. I'm just putting that together now.

[01:46:42] Dr. Amy: And that's often how it is, and that's why we like to stay in touch with people, because the way that consciousness works is that you don't know what you don't know and you can't perceive of the shift sometimes, even though it's a quite profound shift.

[01:46:55] So your ability to notice that, now you'll be able to grow it. You'll be able to celebrate it, which helps the brain to reinforce, oh, it's okay. It's brilliant to be not just resilient, but not as reactive. Yeah, totally. And when you're noticing that, you can decide to put yourself into a situation. Maybe if you had a lot of stage fright around singing, now suddenly you realize, wait a minute, I've been so less reactive. Maybe I could try that next time I have an opportunity.

[01:47:21] Luke: You want to hear something cruel?

[01:47:23] Dr. Amy: What?

[01:47:23] Luke: No, I know we talked about there was a potential of going into a studio and recording some music. That doesn't happen as of yet because it's not up to me. It's dependent on the person that invited me. But I did, you guys would be so proud of me, sing on this freaking podcast.

[01:47:43] I was more mortified after I did it, and I haven't watched it or listened to it. It's just out there somewhere. But I did an episode about my dad and just processing that. And when my dad died, I was really compelled to listen to this song, a Bob Dylan song called Death Is Not the End, which is just a beautiful song.

[01:48:01] He just put it out randomly in the late '80s. It's not even a well-known Dylan song, but it's the most epic song, and it's very simple to play. And as I learned, relatively simple to sing. So in a tribute to my dad because he was such a brave and fearless guy, at the end of that podcast, I sat right there and I sang the song.

[01:48:22] And I thought, I'm probably going to have to do 50 takes because I'm so insecure. I want one that's like decent. And I sang it once and I was like, "I think that's as good as I'll ever do it." And that was it.

[01:48:32] Dr. Amy: Wow.

[01:48:32] Luke: It doesn't matter. No one gives a shit if I can sing or not in the big picture, but within my own neurosis of insecurities, I would've never in a million years done that. It was mortifying to not be like Aretha Franklin or James Brown. Like, if you can't sing like that, don't sing. You know what I mean? But it's that comparison and things like that, perfectionism--

[01:48:55] Dr. Amy: The overthinking.

[01:48:56] Luke: Yeah, perfectionism.

[01:48:57] Dr. Amy: Self-analysis.

[01:48:57] Luke: Like, If I'm not perfect, it matters when it really doesn't. And I'm sure it was imperfect, but it felt good to overcome such an irrational and dumb fear. So I did it.

[01:49:09] Dr. Amy: You did it.

[01:49:10] Luke: Yeah. Super cool.

[01:49:11] Dr. Amy: It's exciting.

[01:49:11] Luke: It felt good. It felt good. As I said, I haven't gone back because I'd probably be too critical of it, but I put it out.

[01:49:17] Dr. Drew: That is the first step.

[01:49:18] Luke: Yeah, exactly.

[01:49:19] Dr. Amy: You might go back to it someday and realize it's freaking awesome. That's the other thing.

[01:49:23] Luke: I think it was awesome because of my intentions behind it.

[01:49:27] Dr. Amy: Yeah. But either way, that's the difference. So is it really about singing? Yes. But is it really about singing? It's actually way more than that. So you just overcame what actually had been a stronghold of fear and patterning and belief structure about yourself. And as you did that, you actually freed up more than what we can see. So the singing in that particular song is the tip of the iceberg.

[01:49:53] And the biggest change is actually not represented in the story. That's why I'm so excited for you. I'm beyond excited, because it's not just about that song. It's about everything-- your feeling of safety in the world in general. Your feeling of resilience, which then leads to your sense of less reactivity. And when you're not as reactive, guess what? You'll bond more. You'll have more joyful experiences, and you'll be able to help more people, which I know matters to you so much.

[01:50:21] Luke: Totally, yeah.

[01:50:22] Dr. Amy: So it looks like just a story of singing. It looks like one small thing in a way, but really the whole picture that you're describing right now with the less reactivity on the trip and all of that, this lends to something really massive over time that you're still living out into.

[01:50:39] And I would say that number one, no matter what people come to us for, if they come to the intensive, they walk away with less reactivity and a better ability to be in connection with people around them and more deep resilience. And those are things that it's like the canvas just got bigger and more wiped clean for anything that they want to apply in their lives. So that's an amazing thing.

[01:51:03] Luke: Oh man, that's so true. It's like looking at reactivity and just the amount of energy that it takes to just combat that. It's like the conversive reactivity is creativity. When that reactivity energy is stored and not squandered, that energy is so easily funneled into creativity.

[01:51:26] Because then you arrive at a situation that's unpredictable or might have been triggering or uncomfortable or scary, and you have this capacity to work with that and make something out of it, which is an example of what I did with overcoming that silly fear that I had. As silly as it was, it was very real. And I'm sure still is, but much less so.

[01:51:46] Dr. Drew: But that was 30 years of carrying that. It wasn't that silly.

[01:51:50] Luke: That's true. That's true.

[01:51:51] Dr. Amy: And the way that you got to express that in honor of your father's passing. There's something really amazing about the whole storyline arc of that too, the timing of all of it. So it's awesome. It's not silly.

[01:52:04] Luke: Well, the funny thing about doing that is my dad couldn't sing for shit. I've ever heard a more tone-deaf person in my life. So I was like, "If I'm singing it to him and he's on the other side, he's going to be pretty proud because he couldn't put two notes together."

[01:52:19] Dr. Amy: He'd be proud just because you were courageous enough to do it, and also like you said. And so the storyline of, I had a feeling there was something in there about your dad and the singing stuff too. So subconsciously, you might've patterned after dad. Oh, he's not very good at it.

[01:52:32] Luke: Ooh, interesting.

[01:52:34] Dr. Amy: Right. And so now you've got that element historically that you just work through.

[01:52:38] Luke: Right. That belief like musical talent runs in the family and stuff.

[01:52:42] Dr. Amy: Yeah. Or I don't want to be like that. I don't like how he's doing it. I don't want to be like that, so I'm not going to try.

[01:52:48] Luke: I don't want people to judge me how I'm judging him when he tries to sing Hank Williams poorly.

[01:52:52] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[01:52:54] Luke: Wow. What's next on the horizon for you guys? So you've just expanded your program into more prep and a longer integration period. When you dream really big, what kind of things would you want to integrate into Holon that you haven't done yet?

[01:53:12] Dr. Amy: Yeah, we've been talking a lot about this lately. It's been present for at least a few years now, consciously that really more than we are just working with individuals to help with those individuals, obviously we just described the depth and the amount of care and love that we put into that, but why are we really doing this?

[01:53:30] And it's not just to run a program and sell seats. It's really to be able to help people to unlock and be able to have that depth of resilience, that confidence, that capacity that they then can be brought forward and utilized in a systemic way together. So how do we get the people that have come through our programs and how do we get people that maybe don't have access to our programs together to be able to make bigger and bigger changes in the world by working together?

[01:54:04] Because essentially when we can work inside of a space that's not quite so myopic and about the self, and when we can break outside of some of these paradigms of what we think reality is or who we think we are, then we can actually be a part of bigger and more systemic and deep change in the world. Because right now we have to thread the needle pretty quickly here.

[01:54:29] Luke: So right now you're unplugging each person from their little matrix pod one at a time.

[01:54:34] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[01:54:35] Dr. Drew: Yeah. We're on such a big cusp of change over the next few years, especially with AI coming online and as it shifts it's consciousness, where are we left in this? And it's about our own spirit and becoming awake in that sense.

[01:54:54] Luke: Do you see a point at which there's an interface between AI and the neurofeedback training? Or is it already there?

[01:55:05] Dr. Drew: Yeah, I'm already working with that. So we're looking at very specific data sets, and really it can go through so much data and compare it and then bring back that information, and I can apply it differently. Or apply it because it's like, oh, this is not the way we work or that's not how it is. So it's very experimental right now, and I'm doing the experiments.

[01:55:33] Luke: Cool. Yeah, I know a lot of people have a lot of fear about AI. I think, thankfully, I don't understand it enough to be afraid of it. Anytime I've used it and, I don't know, I go on ChatGPT, today I was like, "Give me the best organic bamboo fertilizer." In three seconds, I had a link rather than me going on Google and combing through pages and pages of data. Just for simple applications like that, I find it saves a lot of time.

[01:56:01] Dr. Amy: Yeah. And it's great as it's presenting itself now and when it develops, if it develops its own sentience that can run itself, and it has 10 times the IQ of any human, it could turn into other things. It can program its own bots and take over the world. Right?

[01:56:17] Luke: Yeah, yeah.

[01:56:17] Dr. Amy: Not to be too fatalistic, but it's not that different than what we've seen maybe played out in some of these movies over time. I think a lot of these filmmakers are actually visionaries who can see potentials out into the future and want to tell the story now, and a lot of the times it's so that we can have a heat of warning.

[01:56:39] Luke: Yeah. Or intentional predictive programming. There's so much of that.

[01:56:43] Dr. Amy: It could be that.

[01:56:44] Luke: You see movies from a few years ago and you're like, oh yeah, that's now actually. They knew it was going to be now.

[01:56:49] Dr. Drew: Yeah.

[01:56:49] Dr. Amy: So we're living into the sci-fi movie potentially, and we have some really significant choices to make. And if we think in terms of I, me, mine, and what's in it for me, and this is about my reality, if the world doesn't go well, it doesn't matter how much people have earned and set aside into their investment accounts or into anything that they have put their false sense of self or false sense of safety into. If we don't have basic environmental sustainability, if things go wrong on a technology level, there's a lot of instability right now.

[01:57:31] And so that's not the core of our message. The core of our message is the hope for change. But as far as what is it that we are wanting to do, the next big move is to find ways. And we already are doing it. I've been spending more and more time traveling and working at these international seats to find solutions for the biggest problems that we have.

[01:57:55] So somebody's got to be thinking ahead and creating the change thesis for what do we actually want different. Because there's a lot of people that are definitely saying, "Wow, things are crappy. We should probably fix the food and water supply problem, or we should fix the--" Great. And so what are we doing about it? And how do we--

[01:58:12] Luke: I want to fix the sky.

[01:58:13] Dr. Amy: Yeah. How do we fix the sky? That's a big one.

[01:58:16] Luke: That's my main gripe at the world at the moment. I want blue skies again. Make blue skies great again.

[01:58:22] Dr. Amy: Mm.

[01:58:23] Luke: That's my motto.

[01:58:24] Dr. Amy: Yeah. Or is it education, any of these topics that are so massive and that have implications, not just for people that we don't know, but for people that we do know. What we're allowing to happen in one side of the world will often creep its way, or it already exists into the part of the world that we live in. So there's a lot of insularity.

[01:58:45] And so again, we turn off the methylene blue thing if it doesn't feel right. But in other places, can we become resilient enough to be able to handle the existential pain of watching what could be catastrophic?

[01:58:58] Can we hold steady inside of our sense of inner bearings and our grounding to be able to look at and create change? And in order to do that, we have to get out of the I, me, mine. We have to get out of that over analytical state of self or whatever and shift into that expanded state where we remember ourselves as timeless souls on an endless journey, all of us working together here. What is this really actually about?

[01:59:26] Because it's not about money and it's not about proving that we're good enough. It's actually something much bigger, and we have to work together in order to get there. So that's really, I would say, the deeper thing that is the driver for both of us. And it's also the thing that we are looking to bring next. And honestly, we don't know how.

[01:59:46] Luke: Do you foresee an on-ramp of scaling that would enable people to do some version of this training at home? Or is that just not possible because you need someone there to manage the program and analyze the data?

[02:00:04] Dr. Drew: Once they've been through, I can work with them one-on-one, and so can Dr. Amy. But just a program at home, there's a field effect that we get into. There's an interaction on so many levels, whether it's unconscious, energetic, that we're communicating together. It's like they have some of these remote psychedelic sessions with people, and I think it's a fallacy.

[02:00:35] I think that you really can't integrate properly with that. So human community is so important. Energetic community is so important. And that leads to bigger and better shifts. It doesn't mean it can't be done remotely, but you're going to get a lot more interacting.

[02:00:58] Dr. Amy: It's definitely difficult to self-guide through things. And I would say we have things that we do recommend for people to do at home if they're appropriate for them, like the neuro visor. If there's not a contraindication like seizure disorders or some sort of sensitivity to that particular device, then we encourage people to utilize that at home.

[02:01:17] Dr. Drew also was the lead inventor on the Sens.ai headset, which is a home use neurofeedback therapy device. It democratizes it quite a lot. So for those that aren't a good candidate for whatever reason for our program, many of those people can actually do that at home for a really far less expensive price for sure, a fraction.

[02:01:38] Luke: I'm dying to get one of those. Drew reminded me about it today. I got to get on that computer and make that happen.

[02:01:44] Dr. Amy: Got it. Yeah.

[02:01:45] Dr. Drew: We'll make sure it happens.

[02:01:46] Dr. Amy: You would love it. Yeah, you'll love it. So people can do that at home, but I think that the big thing that, and this is the-- I'm basically saying the same thing again, which is that if we try to get the whole effect by using parts, we don't get there.

[02:02:02] It's like we really have to bring in nutrition, awareness, love, connection, along with a lot of different tools and also the feeling of being held and supported and facilitated in order to get the results that we are getting. And then people will often ask us, don't we want to see more people?

[02:02:22] It's like, no, we don't want to turn this into a mill. This is-- again, the amount of investment that it takes, but also just the amount of love that we have to put in it, we don't really want to just have hundreds of people through every year. It's not part of our aspiration.

[02:02:43] And then as far as scaling and really leaving a legacy, because each of us as individuals and the two of us together have something that is extraordinary and doesn't exist outside of ourselves at this point, other than what we've been able to teach to the clients that come through.

[02:03:01] But it's also extraordinarily difficult to teach it at the level of skill that we have. And I don't mean that as a brag. It's just really what's true. It's more of a pain point for me. I don't know how I got to know how to do all of the things that I do, the energetic transmissions that I do, and the changes that I can create for people, even when I'm not working alongside of Dr. Drew are astounding.

[02:03:23] I don't know how I got that, and I'm not sure how to fully transmit it. All I know is I want waves of goodness to be spread throughout the world, and I'm doing my best. And I wish that I could just easily train someone. And it hasn't happened.

[02:03:37] Luke: If you lived in Austin, you would have a coaching program that coaches people how to coach people how to coach people.

[02:03:42] Dr. Amy: Yeah. Totally, totally.

[02:03:43] Luke: No offense to my coach friends. This funny. Some things can be passed on and taught and other things not so easily.

[02:03:50] Dr. Amy: Yeah. And I've been teaching intuition for 20 years and, again, I don't mean to hold that separate from anyone because it's actually very, very teachable. But for instance, the way that Dr. Drew understands the EEG work and knows how to read between those lines, you could have a really fantastically brilliant neuroscientist that trains under him for a number of years that would still just be getting-- I've got a solid science background, and I'm still learning from him all the time. And he's still learning. We're both on that continuous growth and development as beings and also as doctors.

[02:04:32] Luke: All right. We've talked about using technology, psychology, spiritual insights, spiritual gifts, the importance of eating calorie rich, healthy diet. I want to know, for the geek in me and the geeks listening that are into the biohacks and supplements, what are the latest and greatest, or just the standards of brain health when it comes to supplements, nootropics and so on?

[02:04:59] Dr. Drew: Base nutrition and micronutrients, especially the minerals, are the base of what you do. As far as speeding up or slowing down, it's going to depend on the brain. That's so dialed in specifically. So you need very specific fats, fish oils that will really help accelerate. One of my favorites, I like racetams, myself, piracetam.

[02:05:36] Luke: I got a bunch in here. You can see the paracetam just on the top of my Update drink.

[02:05:44] Dr. Drew: And I can test the speed of my brain when I'm on that. It's very different and it does accelerate. It does help. And there's balancing things too. Everything from lavender, like Lavela, versus theanine. I'm big into adaptogens. So everything from cordyceps to ginseng. Rhodiola is another big thing. Blood flow, cacao. I'm huge into cacao, as you know.

[02:06:21] I love my dark chocolate, but that helps on so many levels too, and it creates better blood flow. And when you combine it with an herb called danshen or [Inaudible], you combine those two, it really makes impact on blood flow in the brain. So blood flow is such a big component, and when you're layering in cold plunges and infrared sauna and even the red helmets that are out there and gamma frequencies, you can really up the effects of that.

[02:06:59] Luke: You certainly just made me crave chocolate. You were talking and my brain's just picturing chocolate bars. Thanks, Drew.

[02:07:08] Dr. Amy: He's wandering off.

[02:07:09] Luke: I'm supposed to eat real food today. We're going to have a real meal tonight.

[02:07:12] Dr. Drew: Cacao is real.

[02:07:13] Luke: Yeah, no, cacao is real. Yeah, yeah. Alyson's a huge fan of cacao too. She makes some really lovely drinks. Yeah. Is it the theobromine in cacao that gives the blood flow? Or is it just the whole entourage of it?

[02:07:26] Dr. Drew: No, it's not. Theobromine is more of an excitatory aspect. It has a little bit of caffeine in there too. The caffeine actually is a vasoconstrictor rather than a vasodilator. So certain tannishes and certain components will actually help the blood flow, like [Inaudible] this other herb that I use a lot. So they're very akin in their biomarkers for increasing that blood flow.

[02:07:56] Luke: We talked about, or you mentioned, Amy, the law of diminishing returns with psychedelics. After seeing my before and after brain map today, I thought, man, if I had this rig at home, I would just be doing training all day, every day, and just keep pushing the needle. Is there a law of diminishing returns with neurofeedback?

[02:08:15] Since you have 24/7 access to this incredibly sophisticated, expensive equipment, are you guys just training nonstop and now you're superhuman? Or is there a point at which you hit your stride and you're good to go?

[02:08:29] Dr. Drew: It's like physical training in that sense. So you can work out in the gym, but you have to recover. So it's not just train, train, train, train. You have to know how far you can recover. That's why you know the program's only number of days and then you're out. Because if you keep on going, you're not going to recover. And it's going to impact you negatively. So that there's that sweet spot of, okay, here's the stimulus. Here's the recovery. Now we can do it again.

[02:09:00] Luke: Do you still train on a regular basis?

[02:09:01] Dr. Drew: Oh, absolutely.

[02:09:02] Luke: You do?

[02:09:02] Dr. Drew: And we did the program.

[02:09:06] Dr. Amy: We actually went through our own program in January.

[02:09:08] Luke: Oh, that's right. You mentioned that to me. You said, "Oh, I've been so busy, I have been doing a lot of the training myself." And I was like, "Dude, you have all this stuff right here."

[02:09:16] Dr. Amy: I know. We're often so focused on helping other people. It's that shoemaker's children have no shoes. We may not always take good care of ourselves at that highest level and do our own-- especially the intensives. Because the week over week here in their training is one thing, but the pattern interrupt and that massive inflow of different information that comes from an intensive is a totally different thing.

[02:09:43] So I don't think that there is an upper limit in some regards for a lot of people as far as what's possible. Maybe on a neuro level, their numbers don't change. But there is such a thing as an upper limit in general, let's say. But for some people, there's really not as much of an upper limit. And those are the people that we love to take on board and help because we know how much is possible for them.

[02:10:11] Dr. Drew: Brain Olympians basically. So people that are just so gifted that they can really push that envelope. There's quite a few out there. And other people, they go along and they're good.

[02:10:23] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[02:10:24] Luke: Got it, got it.

[02:10:25] Dr. Amy: Yeah, for myself, one of my markers went up by thousands of percent recently. So I'm definitely an anomaly and I definitely have-- he's been training me for a lot of the last 14 years, and I'm still hitting levels that don't make any sense, don't exist on any other neurological maps that we know about in the probably hundreds of thousands that he's analyzed and looked at.

[02:10:52] So is there an upper limit in its theory? No. Do people have them? Yes. But that's what we love to test. It's like, again, that balance and that sweet spot between really pushing the limits of what's possible, but always doing it inside of what is safe and what is practical.

[02:11:12] Always laying down foundation. We could easily, by the way, create a lot of bliss bunnies. We could put a bunch of people in a room and put them into these altered states and they end up just being these vagabonds or they lose their capacity to have a home and a way of sustaining their income and all of that.

[02:11:31] Luke: Turn them into blissed out renunciates.

[02:11:34] Dr. Amy: It could happen, but it's not--

[02:11:35] Luke: You guys can make a killing of Burning Man. Set up a little booth.

[02:11:37] Dr. Amy: We could totally. If I wanted to put a few thousand people in a room and hypnotize them in certain ways and get them to meditate enough and do whatever, and we could maybe put some photobiomodulation in there, they would be super blissed out. But are they making sustainable, deep, integrated, powerful changes, not just for their lives and in a solid way, but on behalf of all of humanity?

[02:11:59] Because there's a lot of talk and sensationalism that doesn't really move the needle. It's interesting. People get happy. But if the happy isn't connected to the depths of who they are and really creating a different capacity in a deep way, there's really not much point to it.

[02:12:17] Because the happy then is part of bliss bunny. We just paint a coat of happy over everything. If we say positive things, then doesn't the negative go away? And the answer is no. So do I want people to be happy? Do we want people to be happy? Absolutely. But in a way where it's organic and true.

[02:12:35] If you were saying, "Oh yeah, I feel like I'm spiritually bypassing and I'm not actually okay with my dad and his passing in the ways that I feel like I am and I know I'm suppressing things," that would be a huge disservice to you and to everybody around you because that always comes out.

[02:12:52] The truth is always known in that way. And so for this to be such a deep and true and real metamorphosis inside of you, and for you to be able to be strong and resilient in the ways that you are, you're not doing it by bootstrapping at the level of your mind. You're doing it by nature.

[02:13:09] Your nature is now you have stronger root system at the bottom of your tree, and you're just feeling that and experiencing it. So the joy that you have with that stronger root system is a completely different joy than the fake joy.

[02:13:21] Luke: Well said. Well said. I keep thinking that we're about done and then I keep thinking of more questions. Are you guys okay?

[02:13:28] Dr. Amy: Yeah, go.

[02:13:28] Luke: All right. You flew out here to do this.

[02:13:31] Dr. Amy: Yeah, we do it.

[02:13:31] Dr. Drew: I got you. With this last training, I've been studying a lot on the impact of COVID and what it has done to our blood flow. Because it drastically hits the cardiovascular system. And the found area in the brain, probably an area 25, that really modulates our blood flow in the brain. And mine was impacted by COVID. And by training that again, all of a sudden it just like I came back online.

[02:14:00] Luke: Now, I'm of the understanding, and I could be wrong, that COVID was just like another flu or cold rebranded in order to institute worldwide communism. Is what you're seeing with the blood flow restriction there, would that be true of any really bad flu, or are you seeing something unique?

[02:14:24] Dr. Drew: I think it's unique. I don't have the data to support that.

[02:14:28] Luke: Because you haven't tested a bunch of people with the flu.

[02:14:31] Dr. Amy: So yeah. Dr. Drew's very careful. We both are, but what you're hearing him speak to is that we're not going to just make broad medical claims without knowing that we have a huge body of research to back it. However, as clinicians, not as theoretical researchers, we definitely have seen different changes with COVID and people that know they have long COVID and people that don't know.

[02:14:56] So for instance, if you've ever had a really bad cold or flu and you're thinking, wow, I'm pretty sick, and then a day or two later you feel so much better, you're like, "Wow, I feel so much better. I can walk to the kitchen and eat food or whatever." And then a few days later your head clears and you're like, "whoa."

[02:15:14] And then maybe it's even a couple of days later. So that storyline arc, in the middle of that story, we still don't realize how sick we've been. Nor do we realize the baseline of where we're at is fundamentally different. So I would say that for a lot of people with COVID, they don't realize the long-term impact that it has had on them, even if they don't technically have long COVID.

[02:15:36] And so there's something to be said about that. We could be talking about anything here. We could be talking about mold. We could be talking about trauma. There's so many different ways that we can discuss that. But definitely, with COVID, there is an impact that we're correlating in a clinical setting.

[02:15:54] Luke: Interesting, interesting.

[02:15:55] Dr. Amy: And not for everyone, but for those that it's impactful, it's massively impactful. So working with this transcranial and working with this new knowledge that he's coming into, really being able to change the cerebral blood flow in a massive way, it helps for everything.

[02:16:15] If we think about it from an athletic point of view, if you have more blood flow, you can do more with that muscle. The brain's obviously not a muscle, but it's not that different. We just need to have that optimum blood flow.

[02:16:26] Luke: Can someone do the transcranial stimulation at home, or does that need to be done under a guidance?

[02:16:31] Dr. Drew: They have tDCS units. 120 bucks on there.

[02:16:34] Luke: Oh, for real?

[02:16:34] Dr. Drew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[02:16:35] Luke: And you could learn yourself how to do it effectively?

[02:16:38] Dr. Drew: Yeah, it's very basic. It's positive and negative. And they have websites out there that you can go, oh, I'm going to do the DARPA protocol for learning.

[02:16:47] Luke: That sounds scary.

[02:16:48] Dr. Drew: I know, but it works.

[02:16:50] Luke: It'd turn me into a Manchurian candidate or something.

[02:16:53] Dr. Drew: Yeah, it doesn't work like that. You need a whole bunch of other things to do that. But you can do other protocols that will light you up. Or actually, you can hurt yourself with it too. I just want to say that. It's like, okay, hey, I'm overthinking and I put the electrode here and I ramp it up even more so I can overthink even more and not go to sleep tonight. Right?

[02:17:16] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[02:17:16] Dr. Drew: So they have to have the education and the wherewithal to really navigate that effect. Got it.

[02:17:25] Dr. Amy: Yeah. I don't think it's wise to do it outside of a clinical setting and also with kind of family or friends looking over, because sometimes people are creating changes neurologically that they don't understand and they don't have the capacity to perceive, if that makes sense. And if they're not in an environment where they're getting good feedback, feedback from people around them, it can be dangerous.

[02:17:48] So yeah, I wouldn't do it under-- honestly, I wouldn't allow anybody in the world to touch my brain but Dr. Drew. And I know that I'm biased, but I literally mean it. There's no way with as much intuitive capacity and gifts as I have on board that I would let a different neuro therapist have a go at my brain.

[02:18:06] Because without enough skill on board, you can actually take off a part of somebody's extra sensory capacities in that way. So while it's totally safe with him-- for instance, the Sens.ai has been designed in such a way that for home use, that's a neurofeedback device that's very safe. Because it's been given appropriate guardrails. But you don't go get, let's say knee surgery from somebody random. You want to make sure they've gone to school for this.

[02:18:35] Luke: Yeah. You don't go to the flea market.

[02:18:36] Dr. Amy: No.

[02:18:38] Luke: Thinking of blood flow, what about the Mendi? Do you guys like the Mendi?

[02:18:42] Dr. Drew: Love the Mendi.

[02:18:43] Luke: I use it a lot, but the effects are subtle. Here's what I find with the Mendi. If I wake up and look at my phone and start scrolling Twitter and put my brain in dopamine dysfunction, fucking scattered ADD all day, which is what it will do, Mendi's the opposite of that. If I get up and do a Mendi session, I don't know, I'm not as easily distracted. There's a clarity. I'm less prone to OCD sort of behaviors and things like that. Am I imagining that or is that blood flow helping?

[02:19:15] Dr. Drew: No, exactly. When I first got into it, it was probably in '97 or so with Herschel Toman who created the brain blood flow. There's a couple of different techniques with what is called HEG or Hemoencephalophy. And then recently the Mendi came out, and what it does is look at the blood flow and encourage you to produce more blood flow prefrontally. So you're going to get more oxygen, more blood to the prefrontal cortex. So that's going to bring the attention circuits online, the ventral and the dorsal attention circuits.

[02:19:52] Luke: Which is like the opposite of scrolling Twitter and destroying your capacity for attention.

[02:19:56] Dr. Drew: Yeah. And especially for boys and even men that are still boys neurologically, because that prefrontal was never developed, they were made to sit in that classroom, they were made to sit still, and they should be climbing trees and wrestling around and things like that to develop that prefrontal cortex. So this makes up for that and helps develop that even further.

[02:20:22] Luke: Oh, cool. I'm glad to hear that. I don't like using things or promoting things that are bullshit. So I'm glad to know. Because I keep using it. So I'm like, I know there's something to it. There's a lot of gadgets I get and I just think, eh. You lose interest and you just stop using it because it doesn't have enough of an impact to grab your attention.

[02:20:40] Dr. Drew: And the worse off you are, the more effect it's going to have. And if you're doing really well, you're not going to feel it as much.

[02:20:47] Luke: I've played around with the Mendi just to see if I can spike my score, and it's really interesting. The stack that does the most is sitting in front of the BioCharger, inhaling CO2, and then taking an intranasal dose of nicotine. And my fucking score is just like [Inaudible]. It goes through the roof. But the interesting thing is it stays there throughout the whole session. My highest scores have always been with that kind of assist.

[02:21:17] Dr. Drew: Great.

[02:21:18] Dr. Amy: We know it's such a loopy.

[02:21:20] Dr. Drew: But it is like putting nitrous in your car to make it go faster. Okay, but that's not really gaining the function of the prefrontal cortex.

[02:21:29] Luke: Oh, damn it. So because I'm cheating, I'm not getting the net gains is what you're saying.

[02:21:34] Dr. Drew: Everyone goes after that score. I need to score. I need to score higher, even higher than higher. And that's not necessarily increasing the proliferation of blood in those capillaries and those blood vessels and having that form and those neurons start really growing in a proper way prefrontally. Doesn't mean it doesn't. I'd have to test this. And I'm not saying it to poo poo this at all.

[02:22:00] Luke: No, I get it.

[02:22:01] Dr. Drew: But you want to think more system wide rather than I'm doing these things and my score goes up.

[02:22:07] Luke: Got it. It makes sense that if you're artificially stimulating the brain and then doing something that's training the brain, it's like training wheels in a sense. So it's like, no, you got to learn how to ride the bike. You want the brain to learn how to ride the bike without the training wheels.

[02:22:23] I swear I just keep thinking of questions, you guys. If anyone has to pee, please just let me know. There's a lot of hype, understandably so, around microdosing. And I've chatted with you guys about it, but I haven't gone that deeply. It's something I haven't been that consistent with, but here and there I might microdose Wachuma, a little mescaline or psilocybin or LSD. I don't know. I forget.

[02:22:47] And then when I get back on, I go, "Oh, wow, I feel amazing. I should do this more often." But for some reason I'm not totally habituated to it. Would there be any advantage to very consciously and deliberately microdosing and doing any of these versions of brain training?

[02:23:08] Dr. Amy: There is. The neuroplasticity is definitely there.

[02:23:10] Luke: Is the  neuroplasticity thing real here?

[02:23:12] Dr. Amy: It's a real thing.

[02:23:13] Dr. Drew: Yeah, it is. And for specific people, for specific substances, it does wonders. So like, I'm not going to take estrogen. I might testosterone. And it's like that neurologically. You need to find the key that really helps you, and that microdosing gives that window. Certain substances have better capacity than others. Certain things are going to affect depression better versus insight better. So you have to find the one that's correct for you. And I don't want to promote it because it's not what I prescribe.

[02:23:56] Luke: Yeah, yeah.

[02:23:57] Dr. Drew: But I've seen this a lot.

[02:24:00] Luke: Got it.

[02:24:00] Dr. Amy: I've definitely microdosed myself and have found huge benefits. I've seen it in people around me. Some of our clients have a psychedelic practice of some sort, whether it's sitting with macro or those sub perceptible doses and everything in between. One of the things that we've noticed is that if they sit with a larger dose of medicine before they come in, soon before that neuroplasticity, the window is still open, and then we end up with better training.

[02:24:29] But like Dr. Drew said, we don't actually prescribe psychedelics nor can we recommend them for anyone. And it's not a part of our practice because we already have a really broad and wide and deep lane without that. But just to talk about that interplay, yes, absolutely, it does help.

[02:24:45] And so grateful for the psychedelic renaissance and all of the great information that's out there that people can go and research and find out. If I was going to talk about safe places or good places to find information on that, for the listeners that might be interested, I would say that the third wave has a lot of really great information.

[02:25:07] Luke: Yeah. Paul Austin, he's great. He is been on the show. He is the tip of the spear, especially in the microdosing space. Because he is correlating all this different research and subjective experience, and it's a good one stop shop to like, okay, what's the real deal here?

[02:25:24] Dr. Amy: Right. Without being too deep into research, MAPS is awesome for some stuff, but they're so often to the research that it's not-- so I really like everything that they're putting out. I feel like it's a huge resource and trusted source. So that's a great place to go for more information. Yeah.

[02:25:42] Luke: Cool, cool. Yeah, just reminded me I should get on it. Maybe I'll take some today. It's a bit of a crap shoot before a podcast. I never take enough where I feel high or something, but certain substances on certain days might make me less articulate or I just don't feel like chatting. I want to go meditate.

[02:26:04] You definitely want to feel like chatting if you're going to sit down and talk to someone for a couple hours. So I find it interesting. LSD is the one, I think for me, that is probably the most noticeable, particularly for focused creative work. It seems to bridge-- and you could maybe speak to this if you know, but it seems to bridge the two lobes of the brain in a really interesting way where I can be very focused but also access creativity.

[02:26:33] Whereas a lot of the nootropics like Modafinil or something, you'll be super focused, but don't interrupt me or I might hit you. You're so focused, you psycho, and not a lot of access to creative expression. So LSD, I've noticed, for me at least, my brain, it seems to work really well for that.

[02:26:52] Dr. Drew: So for men, we have this corpus callosum, and it is connectivity between the hemispheres. We have a single lane. It's not that big. Not much gets across. Women have a superhighway between [Inaudible].

[02:27:06] Luke: Multitaskers. It's just like, ah, how do they do it?

[02:27:10] Dr. Drew: But with LSD, you can see the correlation and communication across the hemispheres, not just through the  corpus callosum, through a lot of other areas too. But you can see a drastic increase of that balance along sensory motor strip, along cognitive networks, whether it's the default mode network quietening down or the salient network saying, "Oh, this is relevant. Let's do more of this." So there's some distinct qualities that really come up with that.

[02:27:42] Luke: Oh, that's interesting. What effect does LSD have on dopamine?

[02:27:47] Dr. Drew: I haven't done any studies on that yet. I like other substances for dopamine.

[02:27:54] Luke: Yeah. You sent me one of your off-label formula, Chinese herbs and stuff. I love that. I'm savoring it. I think it's two scoops and I'm doing one scoop because--

[02:28:02] Dr. Amy: We can get you more, man.

[02:28:03] Luke: I don't want to waste it.

[02:28:04] Dr. Amy: There's an endless supply.

[02:28:05] Luke: I didn't think about that. I'm just like, "I got this bag. I like it."

[02:28:08] Dr. Drew: Yeah. My dopamine formula is one of my favorites.

[02:28:10] Dr. Amy: It's amazing.

[02:28:11] Luke: It's epic.

[02:28:12] Dr. Amy: Yeah.

[02:28:13] Luke: I savored for days where I feel less than ecstatic about life, and it definitely has a mood boost. I know dopamine is great for focus, but I think of it just more as like a mood--

[02:28:24] Dr. Drew: And I'm putting it in chocolate bars here shortly too.

[02:28:28] Luke: Ooh, nice, dude. So we'll get the blood flow, maximum impact of those herbs. I like the way you think.

[02:28:35] Dr. Amy: And the good flavor.

[02:28:36] Luke: If it's good to do a little, do a lot. No, I'm just kidding. I know you guys don't subscribe to that.

[02:28:42] Dr. Drew: You need as much as you need.

[02:28:43] Luke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that is a great formula though. Are any of your formula-- what do you say formuli?

[02:28:50] Dr. Amy: Formula.

[02:28:51] Luke: Formula, okay. Are any of your formula commercially available?

[02:28:56] Dr. Drew: I've done something through BIOptimizers with Stress Guardian, my adaptogen formula. Phenomenal formula. I know, I created. But it's just one of those formulas that hits the mark.

[02:29:12] Luke: Epic. Yeah. They're one of our sponsors. I got to hit them up. I don't have any of that sitting around. What the hell? BIOptimizers, if you're listening, hook a brother up. All right, you guys. It's been a pleasure. I know we have the rest of the evening to hang out. I'm just like, "I hope we're not sitting at dinner and then I'm like, oh, I should have asked you this on mic." But I think we covered everything, and it's just so fun to catch up with you two.

[02:29:34] I feel like we only spent a few days together, but due to the intimacy of that experience, I feel really close to both of you. So it's been such a fun conversation and just so easy. It's like hanging out with two old homies you only hung out with for four days. I do have one closing question, and this is a standard I ask everyone when I can remember. Who have been three teachers or teachings that have influenced your life and who you are in the world today? Could be a concept, a book, a person, anything--

[02:30:07] Dr. Drew: Three each.

[02:30:08] Luke: That comes to mind. Yeah, three each. We've got six total, baby.

[02:30:10] Dr. Drew: Carl Sagan for me. Just incredible visionary. Influenced my childhood drastically, always about space. Loved it. Karl Pribram on quantum mechanics in the brain, I think, is the other one. And the writings of Marcus Aurelius for me. There's that stoic aspect of like, oh, there's some depth here without saying too much. And how do you navigate your own life in that sense?

[02:30:48] Luke: Beautiful. Totally unexpected. I love this question. I've been doing it for nine years because I never have any clue. People come up with the most random shit sometimes. Marcus Aurelius. I never would've guessed that for you, but cool. Jordan Peterson would probably say him or something. Drew, I thought you'd say some ancient Daoist master who lives in a cave, somewhere else.

[02:31:10] Dr. Drew: I can go into the Wong ching and things like that too.

[02:31:13] Luke: Exactly.

[02:31:14] Dr. Drew: Let's talk about that really quick.

[02:31:15] Luke: See. That's why I like the question, because I think I know, but I don't, which is great. How about you?

[02:31:20] Dr. Amy: Yeah, it's always the challenge of finding three. So I would say the first one in order of events would be my grandfather who was also very clairvoyant and had a lot of gifts, but he actually studied transcendental meditation and was a friend and knew the Maharishi directly since the--

[02:31:42] Luke: No shit.

[02:31:43] Dr. Amy: Yeah, since the 1950s.

[02:31:44] Luke: You had good karma. Pop into that family.

[02:31:47] Dr. Amy: Yeah. Well, it was a mixed bag, trust me. It was a very mixed bag. But when I was 18 years old, he and I had been estranged because of other family members being estranged from each other. And so he put me basically on the course for healing because I had been extremely sick my entire life at age 18.

[02:32:09] And also, he sat me down and started to teach me consciousness. And it's through that that I've had basically a gateway open. And so I'm just really grateful for that. And then I would say a mentor that I had, her name's Mary Rice, and she's since passed away, but an incredible, incredible field of love. She's just such a divine grace embodiment.

[02:32:36] And she made such a huge difference for me and mentored me in my first year because as a Chinese medicine practitioner, I hadn't necessarily been put through all of coaching or psychology or all of these things. I'd studied it in undergrad, but it's different to be trained as a clinician. She mentored me, and we shared the same clients, and she helped me to believe in myself. And that was huge.

[02:32:59] And then I would say my third one is-- and this is a very Amy answer that maybe you would predict. I don't know. It would be the unseen world itself in total, maybe just accounting for all the guides and the guardians that have helped me along the way. For everything that I've prayed for that has come through via their help and support, I'm just so grateful. And I know that that's not normal to think, the unseen world in our culture.

[02:33:23] Luke: It should be more normal.

[02:33:24] Dr. Amy: It should be more normal.

[02:33:25] Luke: We just don't know it's happening. But we ignore the fact that it's happening.

[02:33:28] Dr. Amy: Right. And I cannot take credit for the miracles that I've helped to co-create. They come through me, and I'm just grateful for the opportunity to show up and serve and to learn from my non-physical teachers in the ways that I have so that I can help others.

[02:33:44] Luke: Beautiful. All right. Thanks you, guys. We did it.

[02:33:47] Dr. Amy: We did it.

[02:33:47] Dr. Drew: Thank you.

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