[00:00:01] Luke: So what brings you to Texas other than this conversation we're about to have?

[00:00:06] Anneke: Well, I actually has a lot to do. I was invited by Alec Zeck originally, and then just made it work to also meet with you and then also doing a little workshop on Saturday.

[00:00:18] Luke: Oh, you are?

[00:00:19] Anneke: Yeah.

[00:00:19] Luke: Oh, wonderful. What's the basis of your workshop?

[00:00:22] Anneke: It is the healing modality I developed. And so I'm teaching that. I've been teaching it. I'm also teaching it online. It's called the Unconditional Model. And I'm sure we'll get into it a little bit later, but it's based on my experience and my awareness of power dynamics and really how to use that as a way into one's own unresolved trauma and unmet emotional needs as a new lens, really.

[00:00:50] So looking at outside power dynamics and the toxic power paradigm and how we may unconsciously be participating in it. So that's the lens with our own projections of power and going underneath that in order to heal ourselves in the context of changing the world.

[00:01:13] Luke: I think that the world we're living in right now is full of a bunch of traumatized people. It seems to me the root of all of our societal problems can be traced back to the experiences we have as children and the experiences of our parents and their parents and their parents as children. It's just like, you can just see these loops of trauma playing out through culture.

[00:01:42] Anneke: Oh, that's what I call them. Trauma loops. Trauma loops.

[00:01:45] Luke: Yeah. It's just wild. Looking back in my own-- I'm writing a book now myself, covering some of the themes to a lesser degree than in your book and looking back at my lineage and just seeing the addiction and abuse and codependency. And it just goes on and on and on until one of us is gifted with the grace of awakening and healing.

[00:02:18] I don't have kids yet, but I know if and when I do, they're going to have a very different experience. My younger brother has a kid. He's awake. He's conscious. He's healing, has healed. His kid's going to have a totally different experience. So I think through conversations like the one we're about to have, more and more people will be willing and able to face the things that they've gone through and find ways to heal them and change the trajectory of their family systems.

[00:02:50] Anneke: Exactly. That's transgenerational trauma straight out of the dark ages. And stopping with awakening and awakening only in the sense of psychological, personal healing and awareness of the self and increased consciousness of the self that expands to others rather than awakening to one aspect or another aspect of the cultural or whatever, truths that have been hidden that are being revealed, even when we start to see those truths, that does not mean we're awakened.

[00:03:26] Luke: That's true. One of the things I like to say is healed people, heal people. You can see how hurt people hurt people. One of my teachers many years ago would point that out to me when we'd observe someone who was dysfunctional or abusive. You go, well, you're just looking at a person just acting out their own hurt and all they can do with that hurt is hurt other people.

[00:03:50] And it occurred to me one day that healed people heal people also. There's the inverse of that that the energy that one carries when they've overcome difficulty and have risen above their own suffering, there's a reverberation of healing by their mere presence.

[00:04:14] Anneke: Well, I do see my life in that framework that, yeah, the way that I get viewed often as a victim, it's not really relevant at all. When people feel pity for me or whatever, I think it's a projection from their own parts in them that still need to be seen and heard. And yes, hopefully that is what I can-- I do work with other survivors, first of all, personally, but also hopefully, yes, the awareness and the consciousness that I have from going into each little pocket of consciousness that became a shadow through the trauma, bringing consciousness to it with love, with unconditional love, and with perspective from that mature place.

[00:05:06] That's like thousands of little pockets, you could say, over the course of-- yeah, I'm 61, so we're talking many decades. And so that is the work. And I do feel that the transformation is who do we give our power to? Because I do feel, and I have that confidence too, but obviously this is not free, really accepted.

[00:05:39] Because the people who see it, that's beautiful, and that's wonderful, and it helps me feel better also. But most of the time it's not really observed. I deal with a lot of projections.

[00:05:56] Luke: Yeah, I can imagine. I want to let people know that are listening right out the gate here, that this is going to be a very adult-themed conversation, and you and I can determine how much detail is necessary in terms of your backstory. I'm as comfortable as I can be with all of it, but I just want to let people listening know, if you have kids present, this might not be the episode for them. Likely isn't actually.

[00:06:27] And also, I don't even know offhand what resources to provide people if they are dealing with trauma, sexual abuse, things of that nature. This could be potentially very triggering for some people. And so I will just say, if you find this conversation difficult at any point, you have the power to turn it off and seek professional help or spiritual counseling or whatever might be necessary.

[00:06:55] I love to have vulnerable, intimate conversations on this show in my own journey of healing. Transparency, authenticity, honesty has been the path through any level of suffering. And that's what's helped me to arrive at peace within myself and with the nature of the world in this duality we live in. I wore this shirt especially for you. Make duality one again.

[00:07:27] Because that's ultimately what we're going to be talking about, is just this spectrum of consciousness and the human experience, and sometimes this conversations for me are less than comfortable because I've had experiences in my life similar to yours, not to the degree that you have by any stretch, but talking about the crunchy bits in our lives is sometimes difficult, but I think it's really important to give one another in terms of you and I, and the people listening or watching permission to explore their past and also to explore some of the things in the world that are very difficult to reconcile.

[00:08:06] And in your story, the levels of evil that you've witnessed and experienced, I think are very difficult for many people to accept as a reality and can be quite confronting, especially for those that have never directly interfaced with evil to that degree, or maybe at all.

[00:08:38] It can sound almost fantastic and just unbelievable that this kind of darkness exists in the world, but I know in my own subjective experience, the only way I've been able to overcome and understand the darkness in the world is to observe that and heal that within myself. So it's like there's this mass psychosis denial of where we are as a civilization and that there is such depravity.

[00:09:15] And I think our denial of that in culture only works to suppress the denial of it within ourselves, which stops the healthy expression of that. It's like you see this in the Catholic church, for example, where people are asked to renunciate and deny their sexuality, and then it comes out in ways that are abusive or counterproductive.

[00:09:45] So we're just going to put it all out there today and hope for the best. And my intention here is to help you to convey your story and your truth. And I think more than anything, the unconditional love that you've arrived to through all that you've been through.

[00:10:08] It's just astonishing to me that you're sitting here and that you're not out there perpetrating violence and abuse on other people, or that you're a functional woman who's out there in the world. It's just astonishing. So I want to find out how you got there. Let's start out by talking about your book, which we have right here, Quest for Love: Memoir of a Child Sex Slave, which the title right there lets you know what you're in for.

[00:10:40] Now, I haven't read your book yet, admittedly, unfortunately. I really like to read people's books before they arrive, but I haven't had the opportunity to, but I'm very familiar with your story and have a sense of what is contained in the book. So perhaps you could just start there as a framework for people that are unfamiliar with you and just let you know your origin story.

[00:11:04] Anneke: Yes. So I was a child sex slave in a network originally in Belgium, but then was sold internationally. And this network, you could say, was in Belgium already. I didn't know anyone. I have to just maybe specify this, that when I was little, I didn't recognize any of these people. I didn't know who they were.

[00:11:30] But later, when I was getting the memories and looking up a name or looking up, it was very easy to find everybody because those were people that were very present on the world stage at the time. I was born in '63, and at six years old, my mother ended up selling me into this network, and I think she was targeted because she's not mentally sound at all.

[00:11:57] And she ended up first being targeted. And first we had people coming into the home, infiltrating, and that were originally taking me in to this network. And then my mother herself took over and even got a car and a driver's license so that she could take me to these events where I was abused. And immediately the abuse was extreme.

[00:12:30] We have the sexual abuse. The sexual abuse was part of the grooming to be made ready for the network, which was on another level of darkness. And right away the people involved was someone who was twice prime minister in Belgium, was the head of the network that I saw, as far as I could see.

[00:12:58] The royals were involved. They were really the secret head, I believe. They were running the network. They connected with others, other royals, and people that were globally known through this secret network, where children were used mostly as a commodity. In the first years, immediately I was used a lot for blackmail purposes.

[00:13:32] So I would have to make the men feel comfortable that it was supposedly their first time with a young child. Now we're talking six to nine, so very young child. And they were filmed and maybe they already had some materials on them with younger girls, but not as young as me. But anyway, it's a downward spiral.

[00:14:01] Luke: So there's a grooming in a sense of the victims, but also a grooming of the perpetrators, and an escalation of risk and vulnerability for them as well.

[00:14:17] Anneke: Yes, as soon as they have you, then you're caught. And there's one Dutchman called Ronald Bernard who speaks about being a banker for those same people and then eventually being invited to what would have been a ritual where that would have been the first time for him that he would have seen a child in a ritual.

[00:14:43] And so for him, that was it, breaking point. He couldn't go through with it, but even though he had never compromised himself, he was already in so much that it was rather miraculous that he got out, even though they never had any materials on him.

[00:15:00] So once you get in from the other side, and this happens to artists, this happens to a lot of people that have a platform, they get in. They get tempted. And there's always the same, we have our integrity, and then we have to make choices.

[00:15:21] And so if I have a deep insecurity inside of me and I want the fame rather than my integrity, I don't want to jump the gun, but they go for your weakness. They get you, and then the degree to which someone has been traumatized in childhood and not healed, you're being offered a way out from the trauma.

[00:15:49] You're literally being offered a release from the trauma in the most raw way, especially with the sexual abuse of children. So you're being put with a child. Now, if you were not abused as a child, I know supposedly people do this without having been abused themselves. I have a hard time believing it.

[00:16:12] I can't imagine that someone who has not been magnetized in that way specifically that they were in that place of helplessness and powerlessness and humiliation that they needed to get this out of their system in some way which, as we know, only healing gets you out in the right way where you can really transcend that experience and then maybe even learn things that you would have never guessed you might need.

[00:16:41] But instead, the network in that sense that as I call it, a network, an organized abuse network of a secretive club where people are together through blackmailing, through what do they have on each other in order to conglomerate power and with some very specific agendas for world domination that I witnessed.

[00:17:14] So yes, I think these people are coming in and they're being given an invitation to release all that pain and the burden that you can never let go of when you're being abused if you don't heal. You can never find freedom of that. Even though you have completely repressed it, it'll always come back in some trauma loop.

[00:17:47] You'll attract something because you need to get it out of your system. Because it's there. The pain is there. The sense of helplessness is there. I call it the parts that are isolated, that are in pain. They are still there. So it gives this person a chance to feel freedom through the release from the point of view of the abuser feeling the power now in this dynamic. And the sexual abuse is the direct release from sexual abuse in childhood. So it's the most raw release, if that makes sense. So that's the biggest tool they have.

[00:18:31] Luke: It sounds like-- I know some of this is really difficult. I'm trying to project myself into the awareness of the stratum of people listening to this or watching this. And again, I think it's really difficult to reconcile the fact that there are so many "leaders" in the world, the people with great wealth and power that are engaged in this type of behavior.

[00:19:02] And what I gather from the way you described some of these things in the network is that certain targets, the victims are chosen based on their vulnerability, which I know was the case for my abuse when I was a kid. It's so obvious to me now why I was selected. But on the other side with the perpetrators, there are, of course, going to be probably a small faction of them, but certain people in position to power that value and maintain their integrity and are not someone that is able to be compromised in these ways.

[00:19:43] But it seems like, and correct me where I'm wrong here, that those that have integrity, if you think of, say a politician or a celebrity or something like that, that is not corruptible. That's going to be known and seen by those that are doing the corrupting, therefore they will be excluded from those invitations. In other words, I would think they won't even attempt to corrupt those people because--

[00:20:07] Anneke: I don't know if they'll not attempt, but--

[00:20:09] Luke: I mean, maybe up to a certain point, they're going to see, okay, this person's not going to break their integrity. So it's like in this way, the good guys are relatively powerless to stop this because they're not pervy to what is actually happening at the higher levels in the hierarchy of knowledge of this pyramid.

[00:20:31] So everything's compartmentalized. And if you have your local mayor, who's not willing to be compromised because they have integrity and morality, they're going to be excluded from the club and therefore not rise up the ranks in their level of understanding. Is that how this works?

[00:20:50] Anneke: I believe so.

[00:20:50] Luke: Because not all of them are evil, right?

[00:20:53] Anneke: No. Not all of them are evil.

[00:20:55] Luke: But many of them are.

[00:20:56] Anneke: But many of them are.

[00:20:57] Luke: So how does some maintain levels of power and influence without becoming corrupted?

[00:21:03] Anneke: Well, when you say an uncorruptible politician, it almost sounds like it doesn't really work together. I can't think of anyone who would want. Because politics is really about division, especially now. It always has been. It's a game.

[00:21:22] Luke: Right. It's like, if you're in touch with your own personal power, your soul power of who you really are, it seems to me then working to put yourself in a position to have power over other people would not be attractive to you. I notice even around the house, if I'm being controlling with my wife and I, hey, don't leave that towel there, you should take this vitamin.

[00:21:48] I go, oh my God, I'm being a controlling jerk. I don't want to do that. Why am I doing that? Oh, there's a part of me that's afraid. There's a part of me that's insecure. There's a part of me that feels out of control. So I'm trying to exert my control over the people in my life. But these are so insignificant.

[00:22:06] They might be annoying to people, but I'm certainly not trying to run for Governor or something so I can control tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. So I wonder what that is in the human psyche that drives someone to want to put them in a position to control other people.

[00:22:23] Anneke: Well, I know that feeling really, really well because of the way and the enormous amount of times that I have been abused. So this extreme feeling of powerlessness, and as a child, you're just by nature vulnerable. You have figured out why you were chosen. And yes, these groomers have a really good eye for that child that is maybe the most vulnerable.

[00:22:52] But I've been made to feel so incredibly powerless so many times. So there's the frustration that comes from there and anger. And that anger really, it's the first in the trauma state and the fight, flight, freeze. Anger is the first feeling that comes in any kind of injustice.

[00:23:22] So when you're a child and suddenly your life is in danger because there's this large person there and suddenly they're threatening, that fear of death that you experience then in that moment, which is your trauma state, that brings out first fight. That's to say, kill the opponent. So you'll be rid of him. There's the anger.

[00:23:47] And I say that the unresolved, that unresolved state, that instinct, which is our animal self that has the anger instinct, that the hormones in your body are ready to kill, that all forms of anger come from that place. And the need for power very much comes from that place.

[00:24:14] Next is fight, flight, flee. If you can't kill the opponent that is a threat to your life, like the bear or whatever in nature, run. Okay, now you're running. So now as you're running, you're not going to look behind you to see how the bear is doing. You're just running for your life.

[00:24:37] Once again, all addictions that we have, I believe stem from that initial repressed survival instinct that has to do purely survival of our body, when our body is in danger. And that's what trauma is. There's been a threat to your life, your body. And then finally, of course, as children, we have to go into freeze mode because we can't fight.

[00:25:09] We're too small. We can't flee. We're in a room usually, so we freeze. And then in that free state, your blood flows more slowly. The hormones are raging so that you will not feel pain. You will be high from the, I don't know, analgesics. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly, but you will be completely high.

[00:25:37] And the freeze state is usually the state in which a child gets raped or are molested. Now, in this state, because your blood is flowing more slowly, because your system is completely suffused by hormones, you will not feel pain. That's the purpose. That's how you survive in the freeze state.

[00:26:00] So very likely you may feel pleasure, because you're high. And of course that is used then by the perpetrators or by yourself. Once you come back, because when you're in that state, so fight, flight, freeze mode, which I spent a lot of time in-- and it's also used in mind control to get these states out of you for specific purposes, because your senses are much more acute when you're in that state, because there's really nothing.

[00:26:34] Your prefrontal cortex is not active. Your cortex centers are really not active. Your limbic system isn't even active. All that is, it's amygdala. The brainstem, the amygdala, is deciding what, and so you're in a very primitive state. You can call it the reptilian state as well. And from there, what are you going to do?

[00:26:54] So when your brain comes back online afterwards, you often feel really, really awful. What have I done? As a child, you feel responsible. You don't understand your body response. For a child, it would be completely impossible to say, I never wanted this when you've also experienced pleasure. So that's for the sexual.

[00:27:18] It goes for the violence. It goes for everything. So sexual abuse is one component that the network uses, but I was at age 9 given to an American international network or someone who was from one of those families that everybody recognizes the name known as a millionaire, may be known as a philanthropist businessman. He did a triage with me to see what my gifts were.

[00:27:56] I spent time with him personally for me to get used to being to the ways of the elite, to the environments. And then I was put in mind control training in Germany. So then we're talking another level of abuse-- abuse with these very scientific specific purposes to get your initial intuitive, instinctive reactions and use that energy to for their dark purposes, and like you said, for them to be controlling others so that they don't have to feel their own helplessness, powerlessness and humiliations.

[00:28:47] Luke: Wow. Wow. I think one difficulty people have in facing the stark contrast of our duality, because this is something I observed in people that are in denial, that just are Pollyanna and just won't or cannot face that we have this polarity, is that if you're someone who has the capacity for empathy and you really feel the suffering of other beings, I think it's almost impossible to put yourself in the shoes of or imagine the possibility that there are human beings walking the planet that do not have that capacity.

[00:29:45] So you hear a story from someone like you that's gone through these unfathomable experiences of abuse, and you have first-hand experience of these type of entities, beings, I dare call them people, that lack empathy, that lack compassion, that are truly psychopathic and sociopathic. Even when I hear your stories, there's still a part of me that's like, is this really true? And I know how evil the world can be. I've experienced it. I've been in some really, really dark periods around dark people. And even I am like, no, it can't really be that bad.

[00:30:29] Anneke: Me too.

[00:30:30] Luke: Do you think our empathy--

[00:30:32] Anneke: I had that same reaction.

[00:30:33] Luke: You do?

[00:30:34] Anneke: It's like every healing lay still, of course. It continues. Every time I have another memory, the reason I couldn't quite grasp it before is because it's always such a let down because these people present as the biggest and the best, and it's all about their image, and they're really good at that.

[00:30:57] So when you have somebody who presents as-- and they have all the resources, the physical, the material resources to help with that image, to help build that image, so that all we see is the image. And so right there, it's really hard to fathom that that person that seems so nice, whatever they seem, would be capable of the things that I described.

[00:31:30] And in the moment that you see them, they are not with that part that is capable of doing these things either. They're completely dissociated. These people are born in families where children are abused as part of the-- children born in the network, most people that I work with, survivors that I work with are born in the network, in satanic network.

[00:32:02] So the abuse starts from birth, and the babies get trained. And the babies get triaged to see what they're capable of based on torture. The reaction to the torture shows what the child has in them. That's used. And then when I was nine, I was triaged by this American in his own homes, and he was figuring my talents and my gifts, and I was very happy there.

[00:32:35] I found a father, and I felt like I was in paradise. I was sharing his material paradise, very nice spaces, and eating really good food and learning how to eat it, and going shopping for clothes on Madison Avenue and learning how to tell the good cotton.

[00:33:02] Luke: So do you think when young kids are brought into these systems, into these networks and they're so strategically abused that that degrades or eliminates their capacity for empathy and then they never grow that capacity to have empathy, to feel for another suffering?

[00:33:31] Anneke: I don't think so. I think it depends from person to person, how we come into the world as the soul that we are and where we're at as a soul level, I think. Because some people, they really should not have any empathy from what I know, and they do.

[00:33:48] Luke: Right. Like you.

[00:33:50] Anneke: Like me.

[00:33:51] Luke: Why does someone like you or someone like me go through traumatic experiences as a kid and not become a perpetrator?

[00:34:01] Anneke: Okay, I believe that some of these perpetrators that really are psychopaths, I believe there is a psychological component to it, and there's also a spiritual component to it. So the spiritual is like the soul, wherever the soul is and whatever experiences you're going to have in life, either to learn from or to go through, because everyone's seeking bliss.

[00:34:28] So everyone's seeking love, bliss, happiness. So the people in the network are definitely seeking their bliss and happiness through material means, which is the trap of the world. But I do feel that on a psychological level-- when I'm disappointed, when I have a healing and I'm like, darn, you're so stupid, really, that's so limited.

[00:34:59] This is somebody who's never emotionally evolved. Arrested development, age one. So we have what are emotionally speaking infants that obviously want to control the world, and toddlers would always want to have me, me, me. That's toddler level emotional growth.

[00:35:23] Luke: Yeah.

[00:35:24] Anneke: Being selfish is okay for a toddler. Not wanting to share is okay for a toddler. Being completely narcissistic is a natural stage that all babies and toddlers need to go through. And if you can't get beyond that because you've already been so abused, I really felt from all the perpetrators that I've had and that I was way too close to, but that I got also to see in this state, that few others have the privilege in that sense to see them in their darkest hour, you could say.

[00:36:04] I always saw that a child who's getting revenge, a child who is on the other side of their abuse. And my sense was with the psychopaths, because not all of them were psychopaths, even though they were participating. My own experience in my first three years is that my mother is a psychopath, but I had a caretaker who really-- my mother was alone. She was single in Brussels in 1963, very unusual, and she would go to work.

[00:36:45] And that's where she found her happiness, and she was abusing me. But then I was taken to daycare that was the communal daycare center in Brussels there, and that woman, French speaking, loved me. So I received that vibration of being seen as an innocent and the pleasure of feeling seen as I am as a human being in that stage. I'm innocent and cute and all those things. And I was seen that way, and I could feel that warmth and that care and that sweetness.

[00:37:24] I've even felt it again through, let's say the songs. I found the songs on YouTube that she played for me, that were recorded right at that time. And they were French Belgian songs for children that she was playing. And when I found them again, it just went straight back into that really lovely, sweet, warm feeling of being seen.

[00:37:52] So my theory is that someone who's a psychopath-- you know how babies get seen by adults and like, oh, he knows very well why he's crying? It's like, they're three months old. And he's being labeled, that baby may be labeled as a manipulator, trying to get something because he's crying. That projection, the dark projection that is placed on children by people who themselves have lost contact with their innocence.

[00:38:28] And the innocence-- well, that's what you come in with in the world. You come from the astral, your innocence, your light. Your innocence and access to your innocence, I believe, is your ability to access yourself first psychologically and then ultimately spiritually all through your light, your innocence, which is what you truly are beyond the physical, of course.

[00:38:55] Now, if you don't have access to that-- so if you're from the moment you're born, you're being seen, you're being projected upon as something not innocent, and you've never had a reflection of your innocence, just imagine, so where are you going to find it? Well, the people that I work with, I think it came direct from spirit.

[00:39:16] And I've had those experiences as well. Direct from spirit. Okay. You're not going to get it from humans. Okay, here we are. Boom. There you go. But if you don't, if this is your lifetime to go down, to go down the spiral and to get all the riches and get all the power and to realize, oh, that's not it. Damn. That wasn't it. Now I have to come back. Now I'm going to have to go through all the karma of all the harm I've caused.

[00:39:43] But they're looking for that ultimate bliss, an ultimate love, which is beyond duality that is not to be found here. And so that was my experience. I thought they have no access to their own innocence, so they believe that innocence doesn't exist. So they can't see innocence in the child, me, so they can't see it anywhere.

[00:40:12] So what does it become? It becomes satanism, which is the belief that however heady it may be, it is this complex construction to justify not being in contact with the light, with spirit, with innocence.

[00:40:40] Luke: It's hard to imagine what it feels like to be cut off in that way.

[00:40:51] Anneke: Oh yes, you don't want to be in that person's skin.

[00:40:54] Luke: Yeah.

[00:40:54] Anneke: You do not want to be those people that make you feel that you should be envious of their everything. You don't want to be them.

[00:41:03] Luke: One thing that has helped me reconcile during my own healing and finding a path toward forgiveness for the unforgivable and even the stages early on of the desire for retaliation and punishment and justice and revenge, it's like, ah. And I even feel that now when I see the abusers on the world stage. Sometimes I'm just like, ah, when are they going to be beheaded? And it's like, there I am. I'm right there with-- I just joined their team.

[00:41:34] Anneke: But I have that too, of course. And I do believe--

[00:41:37] Luke: But their karma-- that's the thing I remind myself. I'm like, man, they're actually these perpetrators of violence and harm and evil and all of those things. They don't need my punishment. They've already made their own bed. It's like there's a compassion for me that I'm able to access that it's almost as if, I don't know if I can articulate this right, but they're victims. They've succumbed to evil through their own ignorance, stupidity, naivete, weakness.

[00:42:14] Anneke: Weakness. Especially weakness.

[00:42:16] Luke: Does that make sense to you from your perspective? It's they have fallen victim to this sort of darkness, this energy, and they've been overtaken by it and unknowingly created karma.

[00:42:32] Anneke: It's not fully unknowing, but it is ignorance. It's spiritual ignorance for sure.

[00:42:39] Luke: The karma that these people are taking on is unfathomable.

[00:42:44] Anneke: I'm paying it off in this life. Clearly I'm paying it off. But if we understood karma indeed, we'd never be angry. But the anger is also natural. And again, that's the trauma loops, the anger that gets released. I think anger and sense of revenge and all of that has its rightful place within the process of healing.

[00:43:08] So if we can all trace it back to our own story and our own unfulfilled trauma, when there's some information coming in, there's anger that's coming up to a stranger. It's really helpful, with the unconditional model, you go in to anger. And when you're judging someone, you're basically projecting down on them.

[00:43:33] You're creating distance through your judgment, which is the first dark projection. And of course, we all do that all the time. I'm not saying you. I do the same thing all the time. But then the model gives you then that opportunity to enter from that place. I'm judging this person.

[00:43:56] And so you could get into a trauma loop there because if this is someone in your life and you feel judgmental of them, it could create a story. And that story is definitely going to be some emotional repetition of something that's not quite resolved within you. So to take that place of judging and basically projecting down, if you project down enough, you can kill someone. And in that way, we all participate. Because once you project down, the judgment is the first on the scale.

[00:44:33] Luke: Right. So there's degrees of othering.

[00:44:36] Anneke: There's degrees of downward projection. If you are killing someone, you need extreme projection. So you're going to go through some insane moment where maybe temporarily you're going to project in that person that you're killing definitely is going to appear to you like deserving it. Otherwise you don't have the energy to do it. And that's the nth degree of the same dark projection of judging somebody.

[00:45:08] Luke: Damn it. Sometimes I wrestle with my own capacity for love. And how can I love the totality of my experience of the human experience? And I look at a class of people like pedophiles, for example, with which I have personal experience. And if I'm really honest, I wouldn't piss on one if they were on fire. If I'm more honest, there is a part of me that desires to see them suffer, if not be killed.

[00:45:53] Anneke: Of course.

[00:45:54] Luke: And so I wonder how much of that is just objective righteousness and justice and due course and how much of that is the internal parts of me that have not yet been healed and fully accepted and reconciled.

[00:46:10] Anneke: I think it's the second. I think it's absolutely the second. And then we would go and check with those little parts in you that are feeling that and are really feeling that, and are still in that initial fight mode that has never been completed.

[00:46:32] Anger is a tricky one because we all feel like we shouldn't have it. But anger is a natural survival instinct and the first on top of it. So obviously it's all over the place. We're always going to be in duality. The point is, are we going to be more on the side of love or more on the side of fear?

[00:46:55] That's why I say they're essentially weak people who lack the courage. When you heal, when you went to heal, when you were in your experience, there's a threat to your life. So how can you now emotionally go back to that threat to your life unless you have courage? Because there is fear of death there.

[00:47:19] So you're going to be feeling emotionally, you're back there. You're going to be feeling that fear of death again. So courage, it's almost, I would say, the first spiritual quality where you need to face that moment again. You go back there. You don't know that you're going to survive emotionally. You don't know it.

[00:47:38] So you need to already have some kind of faith that you're going to live. Something that's from beyond the body. And then you go. Then you can face it. And then as you face it, you realize, oh, I was still seeing that from my child self. When I was a little girl, I was made to feel dirty, but it was because that man needed me to feel dirty.

[00:48:13] And that's how he made me feel dirty. And now I get the perspective from the adult, and I realized that, no, it was not me at all. I didn't deserve it. It wasn't my fault. And then that little part gets cleansed. And now there's the healing and that integration of that part that was always isolated, always feeling dirty, all these little thoughts that would come here and there, dirty this, dirty that, or excessive cleansing to not feel the dirt. So that part gets integrated.

[00:48:51] And now I feel more whole. And yes, the healing process with the wholeness comes the expansion of the consciousness. And suddenly that little dirty part, I can see it in everybody else that's been through that, that has lived through that. And I can see people that may be still feeling that way, and I'm very well positioned to tell them, no, no, no, that's not your fault.

[00:49:22] That wasn't your fault. But I see it because I had it inside of me. And then I brought consciousness to it with the help of someone else in the beginning, of course, but now I don't necessarily need someone else because I have my own adult self to bring into it with the benediction of the great ones, the beings of light.

[00:49:44] And then we can go and bring unconditional love and awareness and presence to all those little parts that have had to isolate, and that is the expansion of consciousness that makes you more empathic, more loving, more aware of everything.

[00:50:05] Luke: Well, like the two wolves that you feed, over the course of my healing journey, I think I've gone through all of the stages of grief and at times have come to a place of legitimate peace with the experience. I think overall in the context of my life, I see that everything happened perfectly and for a reason.

[00:50:32] And I'm the man that I am sitting here with you today because of the sum of those experiences. So I don't know that I'd change any of it as brutal as some of it was, but in the early stages of my own reconciliation of my abuse, for example, it took a few years, but I was able to get to a point where I felt comprehensive forgiveness of the perpetrator.

[00:50:59] And I could see his suffering. I could see his weakness, his cowardice, his lack of love. And imagine the abuse that he probably endured that led to him abusing me. And there was a long time where I felt quite at peace with that and felt a legitimate forgiveness. And then there was one particular instance, which happened to be in a DMT ceremony where I was asked once again, because I had gone into these spaces so many times and just gone into the core of that wound and just explored that whole realm in a very real way.

[00:51:41] I've done that many, many times and come to higher levels of understanding, forgiveness, love. The last time I looked at that, I hit up against a certain level where I was unwilling to forgive, not the person as a representation of evil, but it was the demonic, the satanic energies that had possessed that person to abuse me.

[00:52:11] So I was able to forgive the person because it wasn't them doing it. They were in a sense possessed by these energies. And when I hit up against those energies, I could not forgive them and essentially went to battle with them.

[00:52:26] Anneke: Oh, you did?

[00:52:27] Luke: Yeah. Well, not essentially--

[00:52:29] Anneke: Not alone I hope.

[00:52:31] Luke: I felt like I held my own pretty well, and I had my prayers and all of that with me. But then this is the real question. I arrived at a certain level of understanding that this is all consciousness and AKA God, and God seeks to express itself infinitely in this duality.

[00:53:02] And so what I'm viewing as this unforgivable demonic force, this dark force is just an aspect of God in this theater that God has created. And that left me up against a point of like, shit, can I forgive God for manifesting itself in that way?

[00:53:36] How do I reconcile the totality of God and its full expression of part of his expression is that evil that so deeply hurt me? How can I arrive at a true acceptance of that reality, that God's love is so beyond my comprehension that it's inclusive of evil? Fuck. And that's where that left. I don't know that I was able to reconcile that.

[00:54:22] Anneke: We are here. You can absolutely set a boundary and say no to those demonic forces. And it's all delusive. So why would you have to go that deep in the darkness and accept it and love it? That's not your job. You can focus, I think, really focus on God as the truth.

[00:54:49] And is it necessary for you? Because I don't know, but the question would be, is it necessary for you to love that darkness also in order to feel all the love that God has for you fully and absorb it, or would it be appropriate for you to set that boundary there and say, no, the human I can forgive because he was in ignorance. He was in spiritual ignorance. But the dark forces, I want nothing to do with them.

[00:55:25] Luke: I think that's where I arrived, but the larger context of it has still been a little challenging to reconcile because for so many years I felt so complete around the frame that you just created. That's what I had decided. And I felt this deep forgiveness for the entire thing, but in that particular experience.

[00:55:54] Anneke: I don't have complete forgiveness. Don't get me wrong. I was screaming my head off just two days ago at God and really throwing a tantrum from all the frustration and all the anger. There's just another level of anger that needed to be expressed and over, yeah, not just the experiences, but the gaslighting. But while I was in it and I was screaming, I was really like that, wanting to really just-- but it was in my meditation room partly.

[00:56:45] Luke: You're in your zen room with the incense, the crystal balls. Yeah, motherfucker. How have you forsaken me?

[00:56:51] Anneke: Well, there you go. And also frustration with not having a voice for five weeks. It was God's fault. So I'm not enlightened, but in the network, people give themselves over, give their bodies to dark forces.

[00:57:21] And these dark forces take their bodies over. And so you see a human transform in ways that are very scary, and that entity, that dark entity is really raping the child or is hurting the child or maybe even sometimes killing. Yes. So if you're a person and you allow that, well, then you're-- yeah, that lost.

[00:58:01] And witnessing it and having survived it, it's really difficult to look at all of it and come to any kind of acceptance and swear it's not-- but also, it's that I was made to do all these things as well. I was mind control trained because I was going to be part of it

[00:58:26] So at age nine, I was chosen. I was going to be a celebrity in France. I was going to be a singer, actress. And I see people that have passed the review in France and I see, oh, that's what I would have been. And I was going to be used for the pedophile agenda.

[00:58:46] And I had a performance, and I later realized that these people were extremely famous, most of them, a lot of singers actually at the time, a lot of performers, both in the pop country, classical, everything. Politicians, royalty, aristocrats, business people, they were all there for the festivities the week before April 30th, 1973 in a villa nearby Lake Como in Italy.

[00:59:20] That was, I think it was a property of that American that was my owner now who had-- I had been trained for a whole year while also going to school, being brought back home. My mother had sent me to music school in the village, so I was being prepared. And on weekends I was often driven to Germany, actually, quite a lot with a former chancellor to spend weekends with him.

[00:59:55] Mind control training is extremely effective. So we talk science. It's science. It's scientific. I observed myself change through this torture-based mind control and lose my distance. I'd always helped myself in the network in Belgium with those, always thinking, that guy's loser, obviously. I always had my private thoughts that helped me because there's a degree of reality I could have in my thoughts.

[01:00:32] In the mind control, well, they control your mind. You can't have those thoughts. So they take everything except your soul. So they take your mind, your thoughts. They control your body reactions and everything. They control everything. So I was now becoming the persona that they wanted to make of me, which is a Lolita type.

[01:01:00] It would start as a Lolita. They chose French based on my blood and my gifts, but a lot on my blood, my family, my father's side are all in classical music and artists and so forth. And they were from a French family of Huguenots, so aristocracy, small aristocracy.

[01:01:26] So that was good enough, I guess. And so I'm Flemish Belgian, but I'm going to be French singer, actress. And being prepared for that-- I had a performance for these very famous people and I didn't know that they were famous, but again, I never knew anything or anyone, but I found out later. So these were events for a whole week celebrating, I think the 30th of April was an important day, and it was going to be my induction.

[01:02:06] So I wasn't public yet. This was to make me part of them. So I'd been trained to please men sexually. I was going to be the wild sex thing. That was my persona, the wild sex thing, French wild sex thing. But then, these, particularly the very powerful men who I was good at just spotting their weakness, I would go and spot their weakness and then nurture, like bring a bomb to that weakness of theirs.

[01:02:43] So I was trained to spot men's weaknesses. I was trained to spot men's sexual preferences, perversions, mind-control training, for that alone. I was trained to enter into a man's mind mentally, to manipulate them psychically, so that they will start thinking of me and that they would start being obsessed with me.

[01:03:10] I won't go into the details of how that was done, but that was done, and that was very well done, I should say. And then over the year already, I was going to Germany, and then I would meet my American owner and I would just tell him about the weakness of this man. And then what does he have? The American now has an advantage. Now he knows his weakness. So he has an advantage-- business, political, I don't know, but he's got some advantage, and that's how it works.

[01:03:43] Luke: So it's almost like creating a spy network.

[01:03:47] Anneke: Absolutely. I was going to be famous mostly so that I would be able to attract those most powerful men, like presidents and so forth, so that they would fall in love with me, and then I would be spying on them while I was in a relationship with them. I might even marry them, whatever.

[01:04:08] Luke: There's an archetypal fable or story, one specifically about a famous blues singer named Robert Johnson. And there's a song called Crossroads, which later covered and made famous by Eric Clapton. And there's this folklore around Robert Johnson that he was this young musician. He wanted to be famous and rich and all that.

[01:04:34] And he went down to the crossroads down South in Mississippi or wherever, and arrived at this crossroads and made a deal with the devil and sold his soul to the devil in exchange for fame and fortune. And then that's what gave him these abilities, because he was just this incredible otherworldly musician who went on to inform so much of rock and roll music that we know today and so on. And I always thought that was an interesting story. And it's just cool because it's bluesy. It's like, ooh, it's a little edgy, that story. And you always just think of it as like, oh, it's just a story.

[01:05:13] Anneke: Oh, no, it's not just a story. This is exactly it.

[01:05:16] Luke: Yeah. But then when I hear people like you and just objectively, when I look at videos of certain celebrities and politicians, and I have some awareness of the MK Ultra mind control program, which supposedly ended at some point. I don't think it did.

[01:05:36] It's becomes clear to me that there are definitely people in positions of power in politics and finance in the world of celebrity that seem to be under mind control. And you can see them glitch at times, that are just staring into space or have really weird behaviors or say strange things, which you might never notice if didn't some awareness that this phenomenon is part of the human experience. What's your perspective on where we are now? Because you're talking about your childhood in the '60s and '70s and so on.

[01:06:15] Anneke: Yes, that's obvious, and I would have become like them.

[01:06:17] Luke: People under mind control now running the world and people that-- it's like you look at--

[01:06:22] Anneke: Obviously, there's a lot of people that are under mind control. I don't know who is at the top of this pyramid, this toxic power pyramid, but there's obviously a lot of mind control slaves out there that are on the world stage. That's clear.

[01:06:41] So in that performance, I sang classic French songs, Jacques Brel, because I'm from Belgium. Jacques Brel is Belgian. So Ne me quitte pas. It's a beautiful song, not at all sexual. So this actually famous French composer, singer, did the training for me, the choreography, but also the singing lessons.

[01:07:08] Anneke: So in the singing lessons, I was naked. I'm nine years old. And he touches me, so it affects my voice when I'm singing. And the choreography was that each line, I was bringing in a double entendre that made it sexual. So for example, there's a line about an old volcano that nevertheless still spouts or whatever. So I have to sit on an old man's lap and look at his genitals being the old volcano.

[01:07:45] And that was the whole song, was just full of these jokes like that. And I didn't really know what I was doing. I was just following the choreography. But that was the point, to bring the sex, to sexualize this beautiful song, to have a little girl act like a little sexual objects and sing with this, not just a high voice, but made breathy from the sexual molestation. So learned to sing that way.

[01:08:20] And so as a girl, I was going to be used for the pedophile agenda, to turn on the men as a Lolita. And then as a woman, I would have been turning on the boys and also used as a model for other girls, for women and so forth. But I had to be like them if I wasn't going to be that person, unless I was also part of it.

[01:08:45] So when we say they're mind control slaves, it's not without your will. So I had to give my will. And a year earlier, I was in what I realized was a rite, but I didn't know it because it was a conversation like you and I are sitting here in a beautiful salon. And it was someone who never touched me, someone who was above clearly in rank, who was younger in age, but high above in rank from this famous American that was my owner.

[01:09:21] And before the mind control training, my American owner had to get-- this was on an island, Northeast coast of the United States. Although the man is British and was a Rothschild. And we just talked. He asked me to give my will. He described what my future would be, which sounded really good. He picked up my thing. That was the respect. And he had noticed it from our interactions. And that was very strong because I was used to never showing my reactions.

[01:10:01] He picked up that I understood the English because my American owner spoke French with me and didn't realize I was actually understanding what they were saying. So he picked that up. And he picked up that I was offended at one point, hearing myself described by the American as a perfect example that children and sex goes really well together. Because look at me. And I was very offended because I thought, well, I've been a sex slave for four years. I wasn't thinking that.

[01:10:33] But that was the reality. What else would you expect? So I was offended. He picked that up. So he went straight for the respect. He said, if you become part of this family, you will be always highly respected, and then it was fame. You'll be on the cover of magazines.

[01:10:58] You'll be known as a beautiful woman. So described that I would have the best apartments in Paris, that I would have the beautiful home on the Côte d'Azur, that I would have the yacht, that I would have the best cars, very clear description of all these things that I was going to have in my life, my adult life, as being a member of their family.

[01:11:22] And then he invited me into the family. It was like the mafia boss, except I wasn't afraid. I was feeling great. I loved it. I thought this was the best thing ever because he also wasn't clearly interested in touching me. So it was fantastic. I just felt seen. I loved it. And he said, do you want to be part of this family? And I said, yes. And he said, well, can you say, yes, I will?

[01:11:54] Luke: Oh, wow. Spooky.

[01:12:00] Anneke: So I gave my, I will.

[01:12:02] Luke: Yeah, yeah.

[01:12:03] Anneke: And then I learned from a woman named Amanda Boyce who has a ministry that she works a lot with survivors, that there's five rites like that where a child, has to say, I will, and give their will to the devil, and at 13 is supposedly the last rite. So this was when I was nine. At 10 was my induction into the cult.

[01:12:31] So what I was going to talk about earlier, and this is hard, but I think it is important that in that week of festivities, besides from all the drugs that were taken, obviously I was drugged all the time. I was drugged even very specifically to get certain outcomes also to create my persona.

[01:12:52] Luke: What kind of drugs would they use?

[01:12:54] Anneke: I was given little white pills by this American all the time who was very adept at just getting exactly the right result based on these drugs, which were uppers and which were some sort of Viagra, I think, that made me really crave sex and very wild in that way. But I was given lots of things.

[01:13:16] Luke: Did you ever get the sense that you were given something like LSD or anything that was used in some of the other mind control programs?

[01:13:25] Anneke: I know LSD is linked to mind control, so I didn't have the classic MKUltra training. I got the training in Germany with a Nazi called Hans Harmsen, who was the doctor in charge in this very small facility, which I believe was used for this American. I think he was using it for his special projects a little bit.

[01:13:46] There were not that many children. But it's very similar to MKUltra for sure. I just didn't get the kitty programming. I didn't get alters. There was no alter that changes into a pussycat to please certain kinds of creeps. No, I was being turned into a persona that would specifically target these wealthiest and most powerful men on earth to get to them. That was the point.

[01:14:20] And for that, the platform was really secondary. It was good for me, but it was secondary to that, that I was going to be used as a spy. He loved being the secret creator of the star, the secret boss and the secret owner of the star.

[01:14:40] And of course he loved all the secrecy around me being sent to Germany quite often with this former chancellor and then coming back to report. He loved all that, the intrigue of it. And I think he was a classic pedophile that he just really came alive around the little girls. His own whatever, emotional maturity level was comfortable around a child.

[01:15:11] But during that week, so to go back to that week before the 30th, extremely high on drugs. So there were lots of events, you can call them rituals. I wasn't too aware, but there was horrible, horrible, horrible things happening. And there was this frenzy that I call a Dionysian frenzy that everybody was completely high, completely wild.

[01:15:40] But meanwhile, the worst things imaginable are happening and demons are entering and are being given free reign and worshipped. And Satan is worshipped, or just Lucifer is worshipped. This was a Luciferian cult. And I was in it. I had to participate. And in order to be able to participate in these horrendous things, you have to be really, really high.

[01:16:10] And then I was being raped. So there was all this sexual frenzy that was happening at the same time. So I was completely taken into that stream also, and there's such dissociation that these are the harder memories to get back to. But yes, I was completely there in it. It's like you could throw somebody and see how far it's going to go.

[01:16:38] And then I was being thrown and I was just way out there and I was just completely in it. And there was specifically memories with a British comedian called Freddie Starr, who was there as an invitee, who was an absolute sex addict. And so there's this memory of the sex with him and the craziness that was happening at this ritual, really, that I was just completely thrown into that frenzy myself.

[01:17:14] And of course the training also from the beginning has you participate as an abuser. And I think that's why it's so difficult to find the courage to step out. Because, okay, the induction ceremony is that now you're part of us now. So for me, I did it, and the training makes it very clear from the beginning, if you're not going to do it, it's going to be worse for the victim. And that was made very graphically clear in the beginning of that training, and that was during the mind control training in Germany.

[01:18:07] Luke: Where you're essentially forced to participate in the abuse of others.

[01:18:13] Anneke: Murder.

[01:18:16] Luke: And so when you're in that position, you're acting essentially from a place of mercy because you know that the outcome is going to be much worse if you don't comply. Unfathomable that you've experienced these things and that you're sitting here right now.

[01:18:45] Anneke: Well, to heal from the guilt of the killing is the reason that I didn't speak out until I was 49 years old.

[01:18:57] Luke: Did you tell anyone of this throughout your life?

[01:19:00] Anneke: Oh yeah.

[01:19:00] Luke: But not publicly.

[01:19:02] Anneke: No.

[01:19:02] Luke: Okay.

[01:19:04] Anneke: But also the killing, these are not the first memories that come. First was the memories of incest. Then I was getting flashbacks of the horrors I didn't know. I didn't have a context for them. I couldn't believe it. I didn't want it to be true. It was followed by immediate programming, suicide programmation. So suicidal thoughts, which I realized later was also programmed into me. Suicide programs for very specific situations.

[01:19:44] Luke: Like a psychological self-destruct sort of kill switch.

[01:19:50] Anneke: A kill switch. Yeah.

[01:19:51] Luke: That would be activated within you to protect the interest of those that had abused and indoctrinated you.

[01:19:56] Anneke: Exactly. Which is a science to a tee. It's so loft. They are so good at what they do. That mind control training, I was one month in Heidelberg in Germany. This doctor was there sometimes, not all the time, but there were three young handlers who were doing the training, mostly.

[01:20:19] Horrific as it was, it was so incredibly effective. And then the rest of the year I was taken here. I was taken there. I spent two weeks in the basement of a castle in France where I was being treated as a star by my entourage. So I was getting used to being a narcissist, getting cared for, and I was naked the whole time.

[01:20:48] So there was this message that my body is not my own. My body is going to be this object of worship. So I have to be used to being naked on screen, of course. So also just that this body of worship is really for others. It's not for me. And when you're naked all the time and everyone's treating you respectfully, supposedly, after a few days, you do get used to it.

[01:21:13] Luke: In these situations in which you're being trafficked from location to location with all these different people, in your case, your mother was complicit in this and essentially sold you off because of her mental illness and dysfunction and selfish motives. It seems like that would be the exception and that the rule would be all of these kids we see on milk cartons and all of these kids coming over the Southern border of the United States unaccounted for right now.

[01:21:47] Do you sense that most of this trafficking is for kids that have been lost or kidnapped or taken from their parents versus those whose parents have actually allowed them to be entered into it?

[01:22:01] Anneke: That is a good point because indeed my situation is extremely unusual that I was on both sides of the spectrum. The first three years I was a throwaway child. That's to say my mother was from the outside. She sold me. Anything can happen anytime. So I was used--

[01:22:19] Luke: Did you have any contact with your mother during that period?

[01:22:21] Anneke: Oh yeah, I was living there. That's easier. You could take him back home and go to school. You don't need to keep the children. So yes, my mother was paid-- got paid. But with the understanding or not, because it wasn't very conscious ever, but her denial is so rock solid. At any time, anything could happen.

[01:22:53] And so I was put in situation with certain aristocrats in Belgium where it definitely was just pure chance that I survived, not rituals, but insanity. So children are given literary to be killed. And of course, yes, a lot of children that get kidnapped. Often children get kidnapped off the street.

[01:23:28] However they get there, if they're not born into it, usually they're considered throwaway children. So that means that their life has no value. And in the case of the network, that really means that, that they will be killed.

[01:23:47] In my situation, at age 9, when this American took an interest in me, which was in an extremely dramatic instance and completely not anything that I did, but rather a moment of grace where I felt power of Christ coming through me and seeing him through the eyes of Christ where I saw the little boy in him, but at the moment where he was being most the horrific monster that you would want to--

[01:24:27] I started with defiance, like do whatever you want. I don't care if you kill me. And it exploded into this force coming through me. It felt like it was coming in through me from behind towards him where I just saw all of his trauma, all of his vulnerability. And when he saw that and felt that, he took an interest.

[01:24:58] Luke: He saw that you saw that.

[01:25:00] Anneke: Oh, yeah. The fact that I suddenly saw everything made him vulnerable. So he became vulnerable. I was laughing actually. So my laughter started sarcastic, like, I don't care, to I'm laughing with lightness, and I'm seeing everything about him, and he doesn't know why I'm laughing now, and he's very insecure. It's like he was physically transforming.

[01:25:34] I could see suddenly his nose was really long. He feels really self-conscious about his ugly nose. I just saw everything. I saw that he was the slow boy, that he was slow, that he was always last, that he felt stupid. I saw everything. He thought that was sophisticated.

[01:26:02] And then he took an interest. And then that thing that I saw in him, that's what I was trained to do through mind control. Then they were going to exploit that. I can see the powerful man's deepest vulnerability. Well, that's what they opened up in me to see every time.

[01:26:21] Luke: When we look at a theatrical display of these societies and rituals in a film like Eyes Wide Shut, for example, I don't want to believe that that is what's really happening out in the world.

[01:26:41] Anneke: But it's so stupid if you think about it.

[01:26:44] Luke: But I could sense it's not that far off.

[01:26:46] Anneke: No. And weren't there 40 minutes cut out of that movie or something? And then Kubrick just died. I don't know. I can't really tell.

[01:26:53] Luke: And when you talk about people that are worshiping Lucifer and that are saitanist--

[01:26:57] Anneke: Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. No, it is exactly like that. And an orgy is exactly like that.

[01:27:02] Luke: Are there temples and rituals that masks and all this stuff that we imagine to be--

[01:27:05] Anneke: It's not a still. It was never a still. It seems rather stylized. It was more like chaos, like, ew, everybody's just having sex everywhere, mask or no. Sometimes they were wearing masks and then the rest of them was naked or something. And some were dressed and others were naked. And to go back to what we were talking about in the very beginning when you were saying not everybody, not everybody.

[01:27:31] So often in Belgium, also in the beginning, I'm thinking specifically, I was kept back. So I was in the castle where the orgy was taking place. But I was in a different room with a handler waiting until those people that weren't ready for the children had left.

[01:27:53] Luke: Oh, okay.

[01:27:54] Anneke: So they were there for whatever was happening.

[01:27:57] Luke: So the exposure is compartmentalized. So maybe there's what seems on the surface, a wild party, maybe a little orgy activity, but everything's above board and it's adults. And then people are screened for what they're ready for in terms of how they can be compromised and what invitations they're going to get into deeper layers of the inner circle.

[01:28:21] Anneke: Exactly.

[01:28:22] Luke: Wow.

[01:28:23] Anneke: So was I.

[01:28:24] Luke: This makes perfect sense. Because if you think about just blatant denial, politicians mean well, all the celebrities are just talented, and that's how they got to the top. To, they're all in on it. Either extreme is not true. There's degrees to which humans are willing or able to go based on their level of integrity, consciousness, desires, goals, dreams, and so on.

[01:28:51] So when I wanted to be a rockstar when I was a kid, I already had enough moral fortitude that had the head of a record company come to me or an agent and try to compromise me to do something out of my moral boundaries, there's no way I would have ever done that.

[01:29:09] Anneke: In Hollywood, you have to say, I'll do anything.

[01:29:10] Luke: But someone next to me, the guy next to me, might have taken the bait, and many of them do.

[01:29:15] Anneke: Oh, exactly. Well, in Hollywood, you have to say, I'll do anything. So when people say, I'll do anything, that's the code that you're willing.

[01:29:25] Luke: I see. So the actress has a meeting with the Harvey Weinstein type character, and they say, so what are you willing to do to make it to the top?

[01:29:33] Anneke: I'll do anything. And it's also code between them. I saw an interview, for example, with an actress, and she had gotten a role, and she said that was a role. And I was going to do anything to get that role. So she's actually signaling to other satanic directors out there that she's available and that she's in and that she wants in.

[01:29:54] Luke: Wow. Wow. Yeah, it's funny because having spent almost two decades working in the entertainment industry in Hollywood myself, I saw some definite debauchery, and there's a lot of shady people, and there's a dysfunctional ecosystem around celebrities because you have all these kinds of parasitic systems that are all orbiting around the center character and that's where they're all extracting their significance and power and money and advancing their careers and so on.

[01:30:36] And then you have what is presumably a talented person at the center. And that always seemed a little gross to me, even though business structure is built that way.

[01:30:45] Anneke: Well, it's exploitative.

[01:30:46] Luke: You have a product or service at the core of your offering, and then there has to be an infrastructure of people and systems to market and proliferate that product or service. So I see why it makes sense. And I, of course, saw a lot of celebrities addicted to drugs and many of them behaving in ways that would be considered extremely politically incorrect these days that would have gotten them canceled. But I never saw anyone being abused or any of this kind of stuff. But I also wasn't--

[01:31:23] Anneke: I was there as a woman.

[01:31:25] Luke: Yeah, but I wasn't--

[01:31:26] Anneke: I felt the sexism like, oh my God.

[01:31:28] Luke: I wasn't in the inner circles though. I worked in fashion. So even if I was the stylist for a celebrity, I was still the hired help. It's not like I was going to their parties and going to their house.

[01:31:43] Anneke: So they triaged you.

[01:31:44] Luke: I was never invited in.

[01:31:45] Anneke: They realized that you were going to--

[01:31:48] Luke: I guess maybe that's why there was-- actually, it's funny. I used to work for a number of years for a celebrity who is basically publicly admitted Satanist. And during this time, I'm deeply committed to my yoga practice, meditating, I'm sober for years, and it was just a gig.

[01:32:10] And I didn't really think too much about it, but I was aware that it was some dark energy, and it took a very deliberate resilience on my behalf, not that I was ever tempted to get sucked into that world because it was so abhorrent to me, but just to not be affected by it and be able to do my job and just stay uplifted.

[01:32:32] And we would work always in the middle of the night, and there were drugs around and chaos and verbal abuse and all kinds of stuff going on that would have totally never been part of my life at that stage in my life, but it was a job. But one thing that was really interesting about it, especially in light of the things you're sharing here today, is that not only was I never invited into any of that past a certain point outside of the context of my role there professionally, but I was also never once mistreated by any of them or disrespected by any of them.

[01:33:12] Anneke: Interesting you are not in the hierarchy.

[01:33:14] Luke: And even at the time, I thought it was strange because I was watching just darts fly almost literally at so many people around, even people within the power structure of the celebrities' inner circle. There was actually only one other person that was immune to the abuse taking place, and that was the manager of the artist. Everyone else, peers, subordinates, and other superiors, just to contextualize everyone in that way, were open season, were game for any mistreatment.

[01:33:50] Anneke: It might have to do with the inner hierarchy as well. The network has its own hierarchy. So I know that the two men that met when I was telling you where I gave my will at age nine, those two men would be considered pretty much on the same level as they are known publicly, but in the network, it was very different.

[01:34:18] And one was clearly superior to the other. And I wonder what you were seeing were people who are trying to get in and then getting abused while they're trying to get in and taking it so that they're more primed to be abusing when they reach--

[01:34:33] Luke: That makes sense. That makes sense, yeah. So anyway, the point I was getting to was, even as someone who was very involved in that industry, I never personally witnessed anything that was really that outlandish. But now stepping back, and especially over the past few years of just the veil of these systems just growing thinner and thinner and everything coming to light and being exposed, now I see things about Hollywood that it's so obvious with the pedophilia and the mind control and these people that have so obviously sold their soul for fame. How big of a role does Hollywood play in this game?

[01:35:25] Anneke: Listen, I think it's all the same. It's politics on the one hand. Hollywood was major. There's so much mass programmation in movies. And I worked in Hollywood too in '87 as a temp. I was just very aware of the sexism as a young woman, like, ooh, it was really disgusting.

[01:35:54] I think it was very difficult to even go to any parties because of that. And that's me. And I was not by any means freed up or something, liberated as a woman. I was just another woman with a lot of issues sexually that was just out there. And it seems that Hollywood is one arm. Politics is another arm. TV is another arm, but maybe it's together with Hollywood, but yes, it's important.

[01:36:34] And so when you have somebody who's signaling this signaling to the other Satanists or whatever, I noticed, for example, another thing that happens is that the biggest pedophiles in Hollywood, they'll get the mentions. So it's another way of signaling. You have to compliment this big director who's been outed as a pedophile by somebody.

[01:36:56] Luke: Like Roman Polanski.

[01:36:58] Anneke: Well, obviously, everybody knows about him, but yeah, obviously that's a big red flag if anybody publicly supports him.

[01:37:08] Luke: He's winning awards and all the celebrities at the Oscars are clapping for him.

[01:37:14] Anneke: But I'm talking about the ones that we don't know, the ones that are big and famous now, and nobody really knows. In the public, it's not really known that these are big pedophiles. And so you see, whether it's in a show or whether it's somebody in an interview, but they drop those names and they'll just give a little nod to those people that are the big pedophiles in the industry just, again, to let them know, like, I'm with you.

[01:37:41] I'm okay with this. And so I think it's huge. And with everything, it's who has the power of making it happen in the end? It's the same with everything. There's a small independent movie, and it does really well.

[01:38:00] Then what happens to the director, the people, the creators of that movie? Are they going to get invited? Are they going to get temptation? It seems that you deemed just wasn't going to touch you.

[01:38:20] Luke: Yeah, thankfully. It has always mystified me, especially in the music industry, to see an artist have what's so obviously an unnatural rise to the top, especially artists with mediocre to no talent.

[01:38:41] Anneke: That does happen.

[01:38:43] Luke: A pop star. And all of a sudden they're just everywhere to the point that it's impossible for them to be--

[01:38:50] Anneke: And look at the ones that are everywhere for decades. That's a sign too.

[01:38:55] Luke: It's impossible for some of these rises to fame to be organic and natural.

[01:39:00] Anneke: It can never be fully organic because once you're at the top of fame, if you're not in, if you're not part of it, you cannot remain there. These people, you just keep seeing them again and again. It's like they never get old. They're still in the public, just as much as they were in the '80s. That's not natural.

[01:39:27] Luke: Interesting. All kinds of people are coming to mind now. Here's a direction I'd like to go. Oh man, this is another one I think many of us struggle is there are those of us that are willing for our own evolution to face the shadow within ourselves, to face the darkness that exists in the world, to pull her head out of the sand and go, wow, yeah, the world is actually controlled by a bunch of satanic pedophiles, which sounds insane to even say out loud to me. And I pretty much believe that.

[01:40:04] But there's also this, it's like a limbic system trauma bond that motivates some of us to obsess on the darkness and keep looking at all the alternative videos and these obscure documentaries and just going down these rabbit holes and down these rabbit holes and getting obsessed with the darkness in the world and diluting ourselves that by just learning more and more and more and more and more about the shadows beyond shadows, that we're going to somehow be able to stop them.

[01:40:39] There's an addictive nature to learning about these aspects of our human civilization. How do we find balance, I guess, between being brutally honest with ourselves about the nature of things and not falling victim to the fear and anxiety and the addictive pull of getting too involved in the research?

[01:41:07] Anneke: Exactly. And it's always a balance indeed. And that's the model, is actually that, is looking at the outer structure. I call it the pyramid of pain. The way that the power structure is set up at the moment, it's a pyramid of pain that the ones that have the most privilege and most entitlement are busy projecting down on the rest of the world where those who have the least privilege are feeling all the pain for everybody all the time, because they're homeless or whatever. You're disenfranchised. You're going to be paying the price for everybody else.

[01:41:44] Luke: Right. Like a Klaus Schwab, you'll own nothing and be happy, eat the bugs, contrast that person, their wealth, their influence and power with someone living on the street.

[01:41:57] Anneke: Yeah. Or just someone telling us not to fly in airplanes while they have private jets and so forth and private yachts. So all of that, we want to definitely look at those things. We all have some privileges, some less, some more, and we're going to find ourselves somewhere on that outer pyramid, somewhere on that outer scale.

[01:42:20] We have a certain degree of privilege, and then we have a certain degree of non privilege that others have and we don't. So it's just a matter of being very clear about where we are at on this scale. It might have changed within our lifetime, but we were just honest where we're at.

[01:42:37] And knowing that each privilege that we do have is an invitation from the outside to be used as a cushion and a blindfold over our own unresolved trauma and unmet emotional needs. So that this pyramid that we live in now on the outside is completely trauma based.

[01:43:04] And the programmation is to look up to those who have more and who are more powerful and who are more visible and to look down on those that have less and that are more, of course, invisible. That's the programmation.

[01:43:19] And even if that's shifting a lot right now, there's still going to be someplace where we can position ourselves and looking just at the different levels of privilege and so forth. And then understanding privilege is nothing more than a tool for division really-- an invitation for us to look down on others, an invitation for us to look up to others, so to be in that power structure.

[01:43:47] And a psychopath is going to be completely going by that outer structure just looking up to those who have more power and looking down upon those who have less. And that's how you can tell a psychopath. They'll kill people that have less. And they'll brow nose people that have more until they are there. And then, of course, they trample on them because now they--

[01:44:09] Luke: This is why you see the snake eating its own tail. And in that system, when the infighting starts, I think we think of these organizations as, because they are so clever and well organized that we think that they have a lasting stability about them.

[01:44:28] Anneke: They stab each other in back.

[01:44:29] Luke: Yeah. But what I imagine it's like in times in my life, when I have surrounded myself with toxic relationships and such, there's just drama all the time. You have a bunch of traumatized people that haven't worked their shit out. People are lying, cheating, stealing, abusing each other. There's just chaos. No one's in charge of anything.

[01:44:48] Anneke: Well, there are people in charge. There is organization, and there is someone in charge. There are people in charge. There's always someone--

[01:44:56] Luke: But there can't be any true sense of loyalty amongst thieves.

[01:45:01] Anneke: Loyalty to Satan.

[01:45:04] Luke: There's no code of honor if all of these people that are in control are that sick. Therefore, if there's no code of honor, then there's no real lasting social cohesion amongst them. There's going to be continued division and erosion.

[01:45:20] Anneke: Yeah. The cohesion comes from the secrecy of the club, which is the exclusivity. And it is wanting to belong ultimately that gets people in there and stuck in there, wanting to belong to the cool kids. That's really what gets you stuck there.

[01:45:34] Luke: So I guess what I'm getting at is I'm hoping that they have more vulnerability than it seems to be on the surface.

[01:45:44] Anneke: Clearly. Well, that's what we are waking up to. Because I wanted to say that the other part of the model is looking at how we fit in, how we project up, and how we project down. When I project up, I don't project up to people that are necessarily more powerful and richer than I am, but I'm projecting up.

[01:46:03] I'm giving my power away to certain people. I used to give my power away to borderline type women who feel like the eternal victim, because that's my mother. So I would give my power away to certain type of women. So that's how I participate, giving my power away, becoming like a child in their presence and just giving my power and losing myself, and then also projecting down.

[01:46:32] And I think we all participate in this toxic power structure with our unresolved trauma, which are our blind spots, by projecting up, giving our power away on the one hand and projecting down, that is to say, trying to dominate, control, and so forth, on the other hand. And all the ways in which we do that, if we take that as the way in, the projection itself, up or down, that is the way into our unresolved issues.

[01:47:09] That's the healing that then, yes, we go to these blind spots because those blind spots are our own unresolved healing that get us into the trauma loops. That is how we are manipulatable. That is how we are manipulated by those people who want to control us. That's how the programmation sets.

[01:47:33] Luke: Totally. This is something I've observed in-- because what you're describing to me, I would contextualize just as ego identification. Because the ego is always seeking to quantify its position to keep itself safe. So it's going to feel superior or inferior in any given situation so it can find its grounding.

[01:47:55] Oh, I walk into a room full of less educated people that are poorer than I. I'm puffing my chest out. I walk into a room full of powerful, wealthy people. I feel like a loser. That's the personification of ego. What I perceive to be happening with all of these sub classifications and micro identifications that are being imposed upon people, all of the 475 gender identifications and all of these strange labels that didn't even exist five years ago-- and obviously racism is something that we want to evolve past, and I'm glad that we're making progress with all of that.

[01:48:41] But even continuing to cement our identification with our ancestry so deeply into us and our gender preferences and socioeconomic status and all these roles and titles that are being foisted upon the collective psyche obviously so intentionally to get the populace to more deeply identify egoically to create more of that strata of division that you described, to lose us from who we really are. How much do you see intentionality behind that in terms of propaganda?

[01:49:21] Anneke: Completely. 100% intentional, everything.

[01:49:24] Luke: Okay. Elaborate on that from your point of view.

[01:49:28] Anneke: Well, I think what is natural is a breakdown of the old world. Because the old world, like the old Catholic world, all the abuse was hidden, the old power paradigm. It's not like we came from better times. I think we are moving towards better times, but before that, everything has to be revealed.

[01:49:48] And so the destructuring of all of that and the breakdown has a natural place in the evolution. But at the same time, I do see those who wish to control us clasping and going full on to try to control us in every which way, getting to our children and younger and younger and younger. The sooner they can, the better so that children are now being traumatized and sexualized.

[01:50:25] Hollywood has a lot of responsibility there as far as the children. When you look back, movies from the '90s and you see the incest jokes, it's insane. Because most movies, I don't know if you notice, but they don't age very well. You see any movie from the '90s or something, it's like, that's gross.

[01:50:47] Most of the jokes in there were absolutely gross and full on incest, a normalization of all of these things. If there's incest, what you cannot do is complain about it. You can only laugh about it. So that was the message. They're very, very, very strong in the '90s that I remember. So now we're way beyond that. If we're seeing satanism openly celebrated, then obviously that's on purpose.

[01:51:22] Luke: Right.

[01:51:22] Anneke: If there's lots and lots of people that are now becoming satanists because they want to be cool, this is like, instead of atheist, be a satanist,

[01:51:32] Luke: It's like the next level from atheism. Oh God. If there's anyone listening that is toying with the idea of Satanism, I implore you to think it through. Not a good idea.

[01:51:44] Anneke: Well, on the surface level, it's going to be all right. And again, you're only going to reach the top by invitation. Just like in the Freemasons, you don't reach the top unless by invitation. But I can just say this, that looking around, I see the hand of the network everywhere in everything that comes to us from the outside.

[01:52:07] I see a lot of people in the last years that think they've woken up. I see how people who were in their ego and want the power are being invited into that club, get to feel special, and there's a whole new brand of famous person. I don't know if they're satanic or not, but I see them falling into that trap of fame.

[01:52:33] Anneke: Now even my issue in my story is being politicized. And I want to make sure that it's very clear to everybody that I'm completely independent, that my story cannot be politicized. The moment you politicize something, the moment something becomes one issue together with some other issues as part of the awakened ones, we're lost.

[01:52:58] Luke: Are you speaking of child trafficking in general or your particular life experience?

[01:53:03] Anneke: I'm speaking about SRA, satanic ritual abuse, and mind control, which is another-- which includes sex trafficking.

[01:53:14] Luke: Okay. Yeah. That's another interesting apparatus of the system, is labeling something like satanic ritual abuse or child trafficking as a crazy right wing extremist conspiracy theory. So by politicizing that, which there are probably disingenuous people out there exaggerating things and telling stories, and there's all kinds of fallacious things going around all the time, but by that mass denial, it's throwing the baby out with the bath water and preventing solutions to a real tangible issue as the issues you experienced in experienced your life.

[01:54:04] Anneke: Yes, exactly. What I saw being done more was that my story was taken without my consent and things were added onto it and it was just changed, and it was just made full of errors and sent into the world, and that became a QAnon story.

[01:54:23] Luke: Oh, interesting.

[01:54:26] Anneke: With huge errors. And I was never asked. Nobody ever came to me. And I felt the cultish like, deceive the children. Of course, of course. Don't remove the hashtag. That's insane. But at the same time, I felt the togetherness of all the people that were falling into the QAnon trap where we are together now. We've been the ones that have been the victims and now we're together. And now we're the underdog together.

[01:55:04] Again, there's this cultish feeling to it that is like, no, but you're not with truth. You're belonging. And that's great. I'm glad you have a place to belong right now. Don't pull me into it. I'm not a theory. I'm just talking about experience. There is no theory. I'm speaking about my personal experiences. Anybody who has a problem with that, go check yourself.

[01:55:31] Luke: Yeah. It's interesting to observe how people that have overcome the type of challenges you have can tend to be ridiculed.

[01:55:46] Anneke: Oh yeah. Oh, people feel very familiar apparently. I am very transparent, so there's a lot of very detailed personal information out there about me. And of course the moment you start to share about being abused, people relate to you and then may lose the sense of proper boundaries with you.

[01:56:12] Luke: Right.

[01:56:13] Anneke: Because you feel familiar on the one hand. But if you have something inside you that's unresolved, then it's a projection that comes at you.

[01:56:25] Luke: Well, as I said when we first started, sometimes when I hear stories from people like you, it's so far out of my comfort zone of understanding that-- if I were to just listen to you say on 15 minutes on a podcast and you told some of your most outrageous stories from your life, it'd be easy for me to discount that and say, oh, she's making this up. It's too out there.

[01:56:53] There's just no way this happened. It takes a little bit of investigation to get to know someone. And obviously by the time you get on the show, I've listened to hours of you speaking and feel your authenticity and integrity and your experience, so that's why we're here.

[01:57:10] But you have this hangover from the '80s where you had something in the States called the satanic panic when some of these ritualistic abuse situations started to come to light. And then you had therapists who were trying to treat these people and in some cases, giving them false memories.

[01:57:33] And the waters got very murky in terms of victims coming forward with their stories because some of them were not telling the truth or some of them thought they were telling the truth, but they were just ideas that were implanted in them by their therapist and so on.

[01:57:47] Anneke: I don't think a lot of therapists implanted any memories into people. I think that whole false memory syndrome was a ploy to kill and ridicule that reality.

[01:58:01] Luke: Okay. So you think that's a psyop to discredit legitimate victims.

[01:58:07] Anneke: I studied. I gave one talk that is not about my own experiences that was about false memory because I really wanted to research that because I was told too many times, go speak to Elizabeth Loftus. She wrote the false memory syndrome. She's the scientist that is behind all of that. When you look at that science, it's beyond ridiculous.

[01:58:28] Luke: Oh, wow.

[01:58:29] Anneke: When you look at what she refers to in her TED Talk and so forth, as the lost in the mall study, that is proving according to her that about a quarter of our people can be made to believe things that are false. It was a study. The first subject was a 14-year-old boy whose older brother, who was part of the study, was doing the study with her, an undergraduate student of psychology, and their mother was telling the 14-year-old boy that when he was five years old, he'd gotten lost in the mall.

[01:59:06] And eventually, a nice old man brought him back, and then they told him four things that were true, and one thing about the loss in the mall. And then he was asked to write about that. Right after he was told by his older brother and his mother, he wrote about it as if it were true.

[01:59:31] And then they did the study with 24 more people, and only five of those, right after they were told a memory that was not traumatic, that had nothing to do with sexual or satanic abuse, five of those in the new study of 24 said that it was real, right after. So there was no time. Let's talk again in two months and see if you still believe it then. There wasn't that talking about here. So she's saying a quarter of people-- she's talking about five people and one 14-year-old, six people out 24.

[02:00:16] Luke: So this is like a precursor to QAnon. It's that type of disinformation psyop going on. That's very interesting.

[02:00:25] Anneke: And it came together with the rise of satanic ritual abuse reports, but then because it was targeted against the survivors of incest and sexual abuse and sex trafficking, the left got in there and said, no, you can't do that. People have recover memories all the time. And most therapists are not there to implement. What would therapists have to gain by privately implementing memories into some of their clients? It makes no sense.

[02:01:04] Luke: Right.

[02:01:04] Anneke: So yeah, when you look closely at that-- and then there was a foundation, which was the parents of Jennifer Freyd, who is a psychology professor, PhD, who developed the term DARVO, which is the abuser's reactions to being confronted. Deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender. She coined that term.

[02:01:31] She privately accused her father of incest, child sexual abuse, and the parents publicly created the foundation, the false memory foundation, basically throwing that personal story of their daughters out there. And then got a lot of other pedophiles to join them and protectors of pedophiles, which is a lot [Inaudible].

[02:01:55] Luke: Wow. That is diabolical. How long was this period of your life in which you were subject to these abuses?

[02:02:07] Anneke: I suffered incest before, but I was sold into the network at age six and I was rescued out of it at age 11. And I was in the international, what I call the heart of the power structure at the time, for one year from nine to 10.

[02:02:31] Luke: And tell us about how you were rescued.

[02:02:34] Anneke: Well, that's very much in the book. The book is about the last year in the network where a gangster took interest in me, a young gangster who was taken there by his own father, but who at age 20 was already extremely violent, was already killing people, was already robbing banks. That's really what he was doing. And he took an interest in me. And then at first protected me and then abused me.

[02:03:11] And then eventually I was going to be killed because of him, because he dropped me. I defied him, and then he had a change of heart. He, in the most dramatic circumstances, went to make a deal with the network boss for my life to get me out.

[02:03:38] And in the process, I did die. I didn't actually survive. I had a near-death experience, a big one. And it's described in detail in the book and also everything that led up to it. This is a large part of the book. It goes into great detail. And so I had this absolutely glorious experience of the reality beyond our duality, the unconditional love that is there.

[02:04:16] That is more real than anything that happens here. And I was also given that experience to know what to strive for in the healing, because obviously when I was describing the frenzy and the states of extreme inebriation in the network, that's the closest that these states in those rituals, come physically as the experience.

[02:04:51] They're not that far off from the bliss. That is the real thing. Now, I think they're mimicking that, and they come pretty close, whether it's sexual ecstasy, whether it's the high that you can feel in the midst of violence, the release that you feel in that moment, or whether it is the high of drugs and everything like that, all of it combined.

[02:05:18] You can definitely create a release in your system that creates a state that nears the state of bliss that we're actually seeking. So I think without that experience of real bliss, the one you really have to work for very, very, very hard, I might've been at least tempted to-- because power gives you everything else.

[02:05:48] Power is the biggest temptation because it gives you the money, if you want. It gives you the sex, all the sex you want. It gives you everything. Everything that can help you get into these states and this idea of freedom especially. When you feel extreme, unconditional love, that's the real freedom. Then you feel freedom. And I think that's what we're all seeking.

[02:06:16] Luke: So when you heard this near-death experience that was almost like a GPS pin drop to true North, you saw the ultimate Reality.

[02:06:32] Anneke: Yes. And I saw my teacher. I saw Yogananda. I didn't know the name Yogananda, but I saw this beautiful being with whom I was extremely familiar and I was immediately aware of previous lifetimes where I reached a certain point of being able to love, but I could not love, guess who? Those that hurt and kill children. My love wasn't expanded enough.

[02:07:04] Luke: Oh, man. I get it. That's a tough love right there, man. Woo. I think the difficulty-- well, there's many difficulties in that, but one is boundaries. It's like we think if we unconditionally love someone who has succumbed to evil, that somehow we're validating them or enabling them.

[02:07:33] Anneke: Exactly. I get that so Thank you for saying that.

[02:07:36] Luke: Yeah.

[02:07:37] Anneke: It's really annoying. No, there is a difference. If it's forgiveness and then you could do whatever you want.

[02:07:43] Luke: Yeah. The way I look at that is always I think in the context of boundaries. And if I'm acting from the highest love, I'm inclusive of that love. And sometimes the highest act of love is to stop someone else from acting devoid of life. See what I mean?

[02:08:04] Anneke: Of course. And do these people belong in prison? That's the best we got? Yes, of course. I would never advocate for someone not to receive due punishment. And what do we have? We have whatever we have. We have prison. So that would be it. Ideally, it would be in other society.

[02:08:26] Luke: Right. We could just blast them with enlightenment.

[02:08:31] Anneke: Well, I wasn't even thinking that. No, they have to get to the enlightenment themselves, I think. But it would be completely rehabilitative. It would be more after what some tribes have shown us that you have in a society where you're not already separated as a family and you're not already pressured to participate and belong in this really crazy way that we're doing.

[02:09:02] But you have a society where there's more natural ways of raising children and living in smaller groups or larger groups where there's a more natural way of life closer to earth and connected to earth. And then from there, if there's more connection to nature and there's more innate love, there's less perversion. But then when there is perversion and when there is harm done, that it can be dealt with appropriately.

[02:09:39] That is to say with compassion, but nevertheless, protecting, whatever that means. In certain tribes, you get expelled, which means you're going to die out there because you're not part of the group anymore. Or in other tribes you would be, I don't know. But it's rehabilitative.

[02:10:01] The ideal unconditional model world is more rehabilitative. But there is a future to that, and there's something to work towards, which is obviously the justice system is very much part of this network. And in the French film that is out now in the cinemas, Les Survivants, so the survivors, it's a movie I'm in, and it's out now in the cinemas.

[02:10:28] There's six survivors of satanic ritual abuse, mind control, and two parents whose children are now in the networks, or were, in one case were, in the other are, so that the protective parent whose ex is in the satanic network is receiving all the help from all the instances that touch on these cases. The justice system, first of all, of course. And the justice system, I always saw it as the realm of the perpetrators more than our--

[02:11:11] Luke: Yeah. Most definitely. Most definitely.

[02:11:17] Anneke: I did go to police in the '80s. I once went to police. I was ridiculed so much. I didn't get very far. I did report on the original pimp who brought me into the network. I did give his name as he had raped me. And the way I was treated, I was going in thinking, well, this politician, his name was Paul Vanden Boeynants, and he was known popularly as VDB.

[02:11:50] And I thought, oh, well, I'll go and see how much I can say. I didn't get very far. I just said the name of this insignificant pimp, and I was-- ah, you waited 20 years. It was so horrible an experience, and then it was ridicule and dismissal.

[02:12:20] So at the end was, oh, he probably has a file already. We'll just put it in the file. It was blatantly clear that there was no interest and that nothing would be done. And that's the only time I ever went to police, and I had to overcome so much programming to even go there, because I was told that no matter who I speak to, they will find out.

[02:12:44] And not only I will be punished, but they will be punished as well. So it's not really where I want to-- well, so speaking out, I think it's best to do it on our own terms, on my own terms. And that's what I've been doing for 11 years.

[02:13:07] Luke: I think the fear of retribution in a situation like yours is the obvious control structure that's used. And then in other situations like mine, I don't remember any direct threats. What kept me quiet and presumably enabled this person to continue going on abusing other boys was the shame around the whole experience and the lack of ability for my young mind and persona to even contextualize what the hell was happening.

[02:13:45] It was just internalized as a there's something deeply flawed with me and no one best ever find out. Now, thankfully I was thrown into some therapeutic situations when I was 14 and it came out then and thus began at least the beginning of some level of healing. But how do you think shame plays into the perpetuation of this cycle and specifically kids' inability to disclose these experiences and stop them from continuing to happen?

[02:14:18] Anneke: Oh, of course. Well, in the network that shame is capitalized on. The shame is natural. I was six years old. I was called a whore all the time. So you think I'm going to go tell? My shame was so enormous.

[02:14:39] Yeah, I actually think that a lot of projection comes from people who have not dealt with their own shame. And when I speak, and maybe you speak, about being abused, they're fighting off their sense of shame and trying to put that with me. I think shame is the currency of abuse. That's, I think, what the perpetrators are ultimately putting on the victim.

[02:15:07] The burden they carry from their abuse is this vague but present sense of shame that without healing doesn't resolve. So how are you going to get rid of that shame? Well, if you do the same thing to another victim in that moment, you're not feeling the shame. They're feeling it.

[02:15:25] Luke: Oh, wow. Brutal. Brutal.

[02:15:31] Anneke: That's what I think happens. That the energetic charge comes, is the shame, in fact.

[02:15:40] Luke: Right. That makes so much sense in terms of the cyclical nature of abuse from victim perpetrator, victim perpetrator on and on and on, right?

[02:15:48] Anneke: Absolutely. And in the network then, with the mind control, the shame is capitalized on. That it becomes so brutal, you are made to perpetrate. So the reason I didn't speak out for so long was because of that and because the difficulty of dealing with that incredibly beyond guilt feeling, which was a complex in my case, if my mental issue had to do with them.

[02:16:21] Guilt complex. That throws everything out of balance. For me, it was like, depending on the part I was in, I'm not saying that I was always full of shame, but if, for example, I didn't receive an answer to an email, I would start to believe that I'd done something wrong, and I would completely convince myself that the reason this person wasn't answering me was because I had done something for sure to upset them.

[02:16:47] Then I would find in my head what that thing was. And I may even sometimes go back to them and say, I'm sorry I did that. And they would say, no, that didn't bother me at all. It was nothing. I just got busy. And I'm like, okay.

[02:17:03] Luke: Yeah.

[02:17:04] Anneke: It's my guilt complex.

[02:17:06] Luke: I know that one. Have you explored, I presume that you have, the karmic implications of this? And I'm going to tread lightly here, but it, I think, could sound like victim shaming. And I don't victim shame myself, but I've, of course, tried to look at this from every angle in order to overcome and heal from it.

[02:17:32] And one reconciliation I found is the likelihood that there was a karmic debt that I owed from prior incarnations and my similar or same abuse of other people and that there was a debt to be paid. And to some, that could sound, I don't know, self-condemning or self-blaming or something like this, but I have found some peace in that reconciliation in a sense that, well, I don't owe that anymore kind of thing.

[02:18:09] It's like if I owe you $20 and it's nagging on me and then I finally get to pay the 20 back, even if paying you that $20 is really painful, it's like I've cleaned the slate of that. I've balanced the ledger.

[02:18:22] Anneke: Absolutely.

[02:18:23] Luke: Do you think there's any balancing of one's ledger when one has undergone the degree of abuse that you have?

[02:18:33] Anneke: Yeah. See, we get like little confirmation that everything's fine.

[02:18:38] Luke: Cookie came up hi right now, by the way.

[02:18:41] Anneke: There's no frenzy. She saying, you're good. You're good.

[02:18:45] Luke: Yeah.

[02:18:48] Anneke: I personally have no problem with that for me. That's where the healing has brought me, that I have had some insights into previous lives, like where did this come from? That was serious. And yeah, I got a sense of what previous life I may have done the most harm, which is also not to put guilt and shame either.

[02:19:20] You don't want to go into past lives and just like heap on the shame. Rather, all right, that explains it. We're good. And I do feel at this point that I got exactly what I need in these experiences and the healing of them. I used to be very arrogant. I really have wanted to cure myself of the arrogance, which of course in the network, as you can imagine, constant justification for doing harm is feeling better than other people. So you are--

[02:20:00] Luke: It's one of the main currencies, right?

[02:20:03] Anneke: Projecting down all the time on everybody. But arrogance is--

[02:20:07] Luke: That's why it bothers me when we refer to these people as elites, because they're actually so truly inferior. Sometimes it seems to me that it's like a revenge of the nerds kind of situation when you look at some of these people that we outsource our power and authority to.

[02:20:28] Anneke: They're weak. They're weak, and they are cowards.

[02:20:31] Luke: Again, I'm judging and I'm othering them, but just objectively, as objectively as I can--

[02:20:36] Anneke: They're weak, and they're cowards, and there's a difference. When you have integrity, you have integrity. They don't. There is a difference. There's will. And as far as we have will, I made choices as a young child against their system. So does that make me better? Makes me different.

[02:20:56] Luke: Right. Well, there's also the difference between a judgment and an observation. So if I look at one of these petty tyrants, I see them, how truly pathetic and weak and disgusting they are.

[02:21:11] Anneke: Well, if you see that, good for you. Mostly we don't. I saw it.

[02:21:16] Luke: See, in judgment would be the belief that, yes, they are that, according to my perception, and they should be different than that.

[02:21:24] Anneke: No, there's discrimination. It would be really harmful if we would stop ourselves from discriminating and saying, that's a pedophile. Please, let's just say it loud and clear. That's a pedophile. Belongs in jail. Not safe around children. That doesn't mean we're judging that person. It just means that that's what it is.

[02:21:42] Luke: An acknowledgement of fact. Yeah. It's healthy, we're going to agree here, to not deny reality and to have consequences in our culture for incorrect behavior.

[02:21:59] Anneke: See things as they are. That includes the satanic power elite that we're still calling elite today. To see that for what it is as well. And consequences there as well hopefully one day. And then at the same time, if we're going to judge and if we're going to go for the revenge, then we're setting up a new power structure. If we're going to go and cut off all their heads, then we are already like them. You see?

[02:22:34] Luke: Right. It's like when you're a little kid and you're being bullied and your parents tell you don't sink to their level.

[02:22:40] Anneke: Okay. That's what I'm saying.

[02:22:42] Luke: It's like, ah, but it feels so good to sink to their level and to beat them. Thinking about, again, that term that-- we all have to stop using this elites term, I think, because it's actually factually incorrect.

[02:22:55] Anneke: Somebody said deletes.

[02:22:57] Luke: I think of the system and the various constituent parts of the system as parasitic energies. And yesterday I was on a walk and had a mosquito on my leg and it reminded me of that category, and I swatted and killed the mosquito, but I had no animosity toward the mosquito, or no judgment toward the mosquito. The mosquito was just doing what it is programmed to do to survive. Just like the parasites that have managed to crawl their way to the heights of our power structures in society--

[02:23:47] Anneke: It all makes senses.

[02:23:48] Luke: They can be swatted away like the parasite mosquito.

[02:23:51] Anneke: Yeah. With our awareness. Absolutely.

[02:23:52] Luke: Without having to judge or hate or condemn them because they're just doing what's in their nature. But if what's in their nature is counterproductive or destructive or harmful or hateful or violent, or any of that, then someone has to stand up and talk about it, expose it, and therefore put some sort of protection in place to prevent it from continuing to perpetuate.

[02:24:20] Anneke: Well, for now, we're still talking about making people aware of it. And yes, parasitic is really lovely because we were talking earlier about the light and innocence and such a person's inability to access that within themselves. And so how are you going to feel like you're even a person if you don't have access to your own light and innocence?

[02:24:48] It's like someone's been banned from themselves, banned from their higher self, banned from their true nature. So how are you going to make yourself into a person? By everything that the world has to offer, by all the values of the outer world. And in that sense, you can say that this world is satanic. It is Satan's realm.

[02:25:13] There's a delusion here. This is not the ultimate reality. This is the vibration between essentially fear and love. And if you're more with the fear, and if you're afraid that you're not even more than the body, or if you're afraid that you are bad, then what are you going to do with that?

[02:25:35] How are you going to live your life? How are you going to give yourself self-esteem that you don't even have? So with that understanding, if we go with that understanding and have that awareness with that understanding, my guess is that it's going to be a little charged for a little while. Anyway, as this is more and more coming out, I'm seeing more and more moves on their part. Yes, I have been threatened and things like that, but it's more like, well, you look for my book on Amazon, you're not going to find it.

[02:26:11] Luke: Really?

[02:26:12] Anneke: Yeah, stuff like that.

[02:26:15] Luke: Wow.

[02:26:15] Anneke: At one point, my account of followers on Instagram was blocked, and it's so small. It's so small that the fact that it was blocked is pathetic. And so there's a lot of like, okay.

[02:26:28] Luke: That speaks to our power. The soul and heart of humanity that this parasitic system and its bad actors are threatened by a relatively insignificant book in the big picture, not calling your life's work insignificant.

[02:26:45] Anneke: No, no, no.

[02:26:46] Luke: Or a smaller Instagram account. The fact that they would even take notice of that and put any effort forward to suppress you and your message is actually a positive sign.

[02:26:59] Anneke: My voice has been suppressed from the moment-- well, there's a black and white video that went viral in 2016, and that's when definitely the network took notice. But it is always pathetic. But I do understand that testimonies such as ours, mine and others, are the key. Because I think what else is there?

[02:27:24] If you accept that a large part of the people we call elites are actually engaging in this, we just cannot continue as we are. And a lot of people that come across my story say that it's the thing that made them see things, the whole world, differently. Because we've been indoctrinated to see these parental figures, these authority figures, and then we relate to them as we relate to our authority figures and our parental figures.

[02:28:01] Luke: It's like mass Stockholm syndrome. You look at something like the way we're taxed, and--

[02:28:07] Anneke: Yes, we're all traumatized, and we're all tied to--

[02:28:10] Luke: We're actually manipulated into participating in and funding a system that's abusive to us.

[02:28:17] Anneke: Completely.

[02:28:18] Luke: And then we're programmed to feel a sense of patriotism or loyalty toward our abusers.

[02:28:25] Anneke: Gratitude.

[02:28:26] Luke: And to condemn those that are the rebels that are bucking the system and asking tough questions and thinking in contrarian ways. The whole thing is--

[02:28:34] Anneke: And especially condemn those that are independent, that are truly independent, or ignore them.

[02:28:39] Luke: Right, right.

[02:28:39] Anneke: As long as you can.

[02:28:41] Luke: The last couple of things I want to touch on here, and I wish we had a couple more hours because I knew there was no way we're going to scratch the surface in the amount of time we had, but hopefully people have really derived some value out of this conversation thus far. One thing I would like to cover though, is for parents listening who obviously want to do everything within their power to protect their children from any level of abuse or harm, what would be your advice to them?

[02:29:16] Anneke: I hate giving advice, first of all.

[02:29:17] Luke: Well, let me frame it like this. How can a parent help to fortify their family unit and their children against the initial stages of grooming that can then escalate into beyond?

[02:29:35] Anneke: It is so complex to answer that, really. I think I would be lost myself because it is that everything that is coming from the outside. First of all, as parents, we want to be very clear with boundaries around pedophilia and any kind of unwanted touching and everything like that, extreme clarity from a very young age. Obviously, your body is your own, and nobody can-- children pick up on energies. They do.

[02:30:01] So if somebody has a weird energy, they feel it. They are naturally shunned. So to allow children to be shunned, to run away from somebody they don't feel comfortable with, for example, not force them into pleasing and placating behavior, those are things that are very important.
[02:30:16] Luke: Oh, that's good.
[02:30:17] Anneke: Yeah. It's not like, listen to the nice man. Be a good girl. No. It's like, listen to your body. Listen to your own instinct, your own intuition. That is really important. But the complexity comes in anything that is systemic now, everything in the schools. The sexual education in schools is abusive. You don't want to introduce children to sexuality before they're well and ready for it.

[02:30:49] And the laws are changing. I don't know what is happening from school to school. I don't know what is happening, but I know that the laws have changed for anything is possible in terms of basically sexualizing children from a very young age in a public school setting.

[02:31:07] Luke: It's very troubling. And what's perhaps even more subversive and troubling about it is that it's being done under the guise of inclusion.

[02:31:20] Anneke: Exactly. Inclusion. Children's rights.

[02:31:22] Luke: Yeah.

[02:31:23] Anneke: Children's right to have sex with a pedophile. That's what it comes down eventually if we just think it through.

[02:31:30] Luke: As this has started to reverberate through culture, it's been very obvious to me as someone who was groomed by pedophiles and abused by pedophiles that I know what the stages of grooming are. The first one for me was exposure to sexual themes, television shows, magazines, and so on.

[02:31:53] They were inappropriate for my age, which I knew morally, even at five or six years old, I wasn't supposed to be doing. So now we have a secret. Now it's, don't tell your parents about this because you'll be in trouble. And if you get me in trouble, that's another problem. And then it escalates to, then it's the touch, then it's this and that. So when I see this warp speed sexualization of children under the guise of inclusivity and fairness and--

[02:32:23] Anneke: The parents are not allowed to have a say in it.

[02:32:25] Luke: Right. And then you see parents being locked up as transphobes or whatever, being ridiculed or condemned, or even arrested in some cases for denying that their children has a medical castration and all this craziness.

[02:32:40] And then you see people called out as being anti-gay or anti-trans or intolerant when they're just concerned parents that are identifying when grooming is legitimately taking place in mass or individually. I think the grooming is a very real thing and something that we would be wise to not turn a blind eye to.

[02:33:07] Anneke: Grooming is a real thing. And ultimately, as parents, the best thing I think you can do for your children is work on yourself, because your own blind spots there too. Because when we look at this pyramid of power, the children are the ones at the bottom, of course. They're vulnerable always. They have no power, or they are helpless without adults.

[02:33:36] So your blind spots, the invitation is to put things out on your children. That's why you're in a solid family unit where everything remains in the family, and so if there's sexual abuse, there's an implicit invitation to pass it on in the family and just keep quiet about it. And that is supported implicitly throughout this whole system.

[02:34:10] But that goes for everything that you haven't healed, that you're actually being invited and you're in a situation where you're alone. You're frustrated. You're stressed, and you're with your little child and you have to take care of them. It's natural for the power imbalances that have been caused inside of you from where your power was taken away, when you are in that position of the parent, when you have the power over the child, to put it out on the child.

[02:34:38] So the best thing you can always do is look at yourself and heal and become more conscious of yourself, so that you can have clear boundaries increasingly. And as you continue to grow, the relationship with your child will improve exponentially.

[02:34:56] Luke: Healed people heal people.

[02:34:58] Anneke: Back to that. Absolutely.

[02:34:59] Luke: Beautiful. I feel like there's a massive missing piece in this conversation, which is your journey of healing and how you've gone from these experiences to the lovely woman that's sitting here in front of me today that's able to articulate all of these ideas and I'm sure so many tremendous breakthroughs with your own healing. So in the interest of time, perhaps in closing, you could highlight some of the different modalities that have helped you get where you are today.

[02:35:32] Anneke: The only thing that's ever made a difference has been love. There is no modality, no technique that triumphs being a person, being genuinely kind when I didn't expect it, and specifically within the power structure, within the power dynamics, someone that I may have given my power to. So if we accept that, if I give my power away to them, they're an authority figure for me.

[02:36:02] That's to say they're a parental figure, but I'm looking at the hypocritical face, and I'm placating. That's how I'm giving my power away. I need to placate. I'm out of myself. It's more about them, less about me. So I'm placating. I'm pleasing them. If they are attached to that power and attached to that role or that platform, we're in business.

[02:36:29] I'm going to give my love in the hope that they're going to love me. And they're going to take my love and use it. Now, if that person in this authority role doesn't need it, they're humble. They don't need that lift. They have self-esteem. They're going to turn out that, oh, that's a safe person.

[02:36:52] Once I start to understand that they're safe, I'm going to test them. Testing them, I'm going to down project on them because now they've gone down in my esteem, my unhealthy esteem. They've gone down in my esteem. Now they're down because they're safe. All right, I'm testing.

[02:37:14] So those behaviors that have never been accepted are now going to come out at that person. If in that moment they don't judge, there's this tremendous opportunity for healing that happens that if I test and I do things that shouldn't be allowed, that are not okay, maybe setting a healthy boundary, maybe that's needed, but still they get to communicate to me that they're not judgmental.

[02:37:42] And I get it, that they're not judging me, even though I pushed their buttons or I tried anyway. I'm going to go back to the moment before that abuse happened and before I lost that power and I went into that projection, and I'm going to feel extremely vulnerable. And in that moment, if they tell me something positive about me and true, the original lie that I had to accept, like I gave the example, as a child, I'm getting abused.

[02:38:16] I now believe that I'm dirty because this abuser needs me to feel that I'm dirty and feel the shame of that. Now I've believed that in this part of me, I'm dirty, I'm dirty, I'm dirty, I'm dirty. And then there's this situation with somebody. I project they don't need power. Then I project they don't judge me. Now they say, you're not dirty. Boom. Heal. I'm healed. Because this authority figure is the stand in for the original authority figure and is restoring that for me.

[02:38:57] Luke: Wow. That's powerful. I relate to that deeply. That's been my experience too. And a zillion other modalities along the way. We're going to put the show notes at lukestorey.com/unconditional, where we'll put a link to your book and any other work you do for people that want to learn more about you, attend any of your workshops. Where would you like to send people?

[02:39:22] Anneke: Oh, mostly my website, annekelukas.com. And yes, I have level workshops for the unconditional model. They are 10 weeks. We meet for 10 weeks online. I'm doing one of course here, but that's before this will come out. But sometimes I do them in person, but the online ones are very solid, and they're also level courses.

[02:39:44] So trying to create a network through the unconditional model of providers that have this under their belt to ultimately find people that can work with survivors of extreme abuse, but also just for anyone to be outside of that power paradigm and with awareness of the power dynamics in order to be more fully present for somebody. I really recommend the online course. And then, of course, my book, go to my website also so that you can find the link that Amazon has hidden.

[02:40:23] Luke: We need to buy a lot of your books just based on that fact alone. Well, man, thank you so much for spending time with me today, and thank you for your grit and heart and courage as a woman, man, to just climb out of that hell hole and create the life that you have and carry your light to so many people as you have done today.

[02:40:48] It's just a testament to the human will and the power of the human heart, the power of love, the power of God, the near-death experience you had, the Christ consciousness experience you had. These are the touch points that create miracles in our lives.

[02:41:07] Anneke: Absolutely.

[02:41:08] Luke: Thank you for saying yes to those miracles.

[02:41:12] Anneke: Thanks, Luke.